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newmom
21st May 2008, 08:25 AM
I got help from "petshoppuppies.com" who research cases exactly like mine. Unfortunately, I have found out more about my baby's history. It's heartbreaking. :(

Apparently the original "breeder" sold her mother in an AUCTION. Then the broker (dealer) bought Misha's mom. I suppose he did not know she was bred because nowhere on the auction did it say she was pregnant. I have been told that if a dog is mentioned as bred in the listing it nearly doubles the price of the dog. So the fact that this point wasn't mentioned in the listing is most likely because the original breeder did not know she was pregnant! :eek:

Now just to refresh... the "Celebrity" Puppy Boutique I bought her from (they're in South Florida by the way) told me they ONLY work with "reputable, private breeders" that they claim to know very well! What a BOLD FACED LIE! Not only is there absolutely minimal info about her actual breeder, the breeder herself did not know Misha's mom was pregnant. Secondly, they bought Misha from a freaking BROKER - not the breeder.)

Accoording to savepuppymilldogs.com (http://savepuppymilldogs.com/) they know this broker's name/reputation very well:

"Oklahoma dog brokers Robert and Darlene Lourance have received the distinction of being number 4 in the TOP 10 WORST DOG BROKERS in Oklahoma, racking up 14 USDA violations between 2003 and 2006. Four of the violations were under the category of “cleaning, sanitization, housekeeping and pest control," affecting SIX HUNDRED and NINETY dogs."

THIS is where my puppy was born and spent her earliest weeks of life. And her poor mother is probably still stuck in this HELL. :mad:

I am now in the process :xfngr: of figuring out how I can join a class action that was started by the Humane Society against this company within the last 1-2 years.

*Pauline*
21st May 2008, 09:55 AM
Totally shocked and sad. You should go to the papers.

Dublin
21st May 2008, 09:59 AM
I really feel for you, just give Misha all the love you have.:hug:

Just one thing puzzles me, if Misha's mother was sold while she was pregnant & the broker/dealer did not know how could the broker issue a pedigree if they don't know who sired the pups?

*Pauline*
21st May 2008, 10:03 AM
Easy to make one up I'm told Dublin.

Dublin
21st May 2008, 10:08 AM
Oh really, I spose without DNA or anything you can't really proove who the parents are & I guess most people would be taking the word of the breeder wouldn't they - I know I never checked into whether the dogs are correct on Sparky's cert.

Barbara Nixon
21st May 2008, 10:42 AM
Pedigrees are invented over here, too. Though we rely on a pedigree as being factual, we are at the mercy of the breeders' honesty. It would be very easy for an unscrupulous one to falsify even within their own establishment. For instance , who but they, knows which of the dogs they own were mum and dad ?

*Pauline*
21st May 2008, 10:55 AM
I was told by an ex breeder when I was looking for a pup that she saw a breeder sit down and totally make up a dogs papers. I can't remember who she was but she was a lovely lady, talked for 2 hrs on the phone and gave me loads of advice.

Bruce H
21st May 2008, 12:14 PM
I really feel for you, just give Misha all the love you have.:hug:

Just one thing puzzles me, if Misha's mother was sold while she was pregnant & the broker/dealer did not know how could the broker issue a pedigree if they don't know who sired the pups?

Like others have said, they just make it up. And if the puppy is registered with one of the bogus registries, the registry doesn't care, all they want is their money. That's why the brokers, mills and BYB's use the bogus registries. That's why I like the requirement that the CKCSC has had since 2005 that the parents of litters be DNA'd. That way if there is ever any question as to the parenage of a puppy, it can be easily proven.

Karlin
21st May 2008, 12:31 PM
My breeder told me about seeing the papers for an entire litter with a father long dead in the irish show world. :rolleyes: No one checks or verifies parenthood though DNA will hopefully be introduced as a REQUIREMENT internationally because of this problem. Also as a knock on, makes research as for a DNA test for SM more difficult because some of the pedigrees for dogs are definitely wrong, either deliberate or accidentally (easy to happen -- my own breeder has Leo, a tri, down as a blenheim on his official papers and he was to be shown and bred originally!

Dublin
21st May 2008, 12:42 PM
OMG!:eek:

Although that has triggered something I saw while working in Quarantine in England. 3 of a litter of Pem Corgie's from USA were imported by 2 breeders from Wiltshire & the sire had been dead something like 17 years but a sperm sample had been frozen & used on the dam.

They went on to be shown at crufts & did very well - in fact one of them was there this year being shown as a veteran!

Bruce H
21st May 2008, 01:02 PM
OMG!:eek:

Although that has triggered something I saw while working in Quarantine in England. 3 of a litter of Pem Corgie's from USA were imported by 2 breeders from Wiltshire & the sire had been dead something like 17 years but a sperm sample had been frozen & used on the dam.

They went on to be shown at crufts & did very well - in fact one of them was there this year being shown as a veteran!

I was going to mention that too. With frozen semen it is possible , and not all that uncommon, to have a litter born from a sire that has died. We actually have semen frozen from one of our sires because the owner wanted to have him neutered. So someday we may have a litter of puppies from a now-neutered sire!!

Nancy
21st May 2008, 01:44 PM
If the puppies are represented to be AKC registered, they would certainly care about all this unknown sire information. Also, since puppy mills are a very hot topic now, your local papers would likely be very interested in telling your story and warning people away from buying on the internet.

jcj528
21st May 2008, 02:30 PM
Newmom:

The South Florida connection has given me an idea and perhaps some good news for you. Your story of a female transferred while in whelp sounds hauntingly familiar. That is exactly what happened to Zena when she was given to me by a breeder in South Florida. This breeeder had to know Ze was in whelp, I knew as soon as Ze entered my house. Anyway, once the puppies were about five weeks old, she wanted THEM back and said I could keep Ze. Well, I wasn't about to surrender them without a fight. In the end, I kept Ze and Ziggy and she got the other puppy as well as another litter from Ze. (Yes, I had to return her to what I have called a "modified" puppy mill for four months) Not the best arrangement certainly as I have no idea what happened to Rowdy (Ziggy's only surviving littermate) or any of the puppies Ze had six months later. I will always carry some guilt about that, but it was the only way to save Ziggy and Zena from a lifetime of exploitation that my lawyer (who happens to also be my brother) could put together.

My point is that with the stories soundling so similar and particularly with the South Florida connection, I believe that Misha and Ziggy may be related, perhaps even closely so. And that's good for Misha as Zig has been DNA'd, Cardioed and Ophtho'd as my vet wanted to know ALL about him in the light of his story. (This all cost a MEGA FORUNE, but was well worth it in terms of my peace of mind.) Zig is clean and clear of everything. So if Misha is related to Zig, she may be genetically clear as well.

Oh, by the way, when I picked up Ze in June of 2006, she had a Ruby litter mate that was going to be shipped somewhere "out west." Perhaps to become Misha's mom? We'll probably never know, but the possibility is there.

One question does the word, "Tomney" mean anything to you? PM me if so.

newmom
21st May 2008, 06:01 PM
Misha's parents are both AKC registered. The original breeder did register Misha's mother (who is about 4 yrs old) with the AKC and then I guess the broker-turned-litter owner registered the litter with the AKC.

One way that the broker might have known who the sire is: he could have called the breeder he bought Misha's mother from at the auction and they could have tried to piece together who the father was. They could have only "guessed" who the father is?! Or maybe the breeder tried to get her pregnant with a particular dog but didn't think it was successful... so she just sold her?

Or they plain and simply falsified the documents on the father. I did order a three generation pedigree and I might do a DNA test. Apparently the AKC will give you your money back if the father is not who the papers say he is.

On a side note, Misha's mom had given birth to puppies her previous heat cycle ("petshoppuppies.com" found this out.) So she was certainly used in a puppy mill setting being bred heat after heat... the thing that boggles me is why would the breeder sell her now? And sell her without knowing she was pregnant? Or if she did know - why not list it on the auction? They make so much more money off pregnant dogs.

I don't get any of this. :confused::mad::(

I am going to take this to the papers, possibly start up a website, as well as I am trying to join a class action lawsuit already underway on the company I bought her from and the Humane Society is promoting it.

jcj528 - thanks so much for the info! Misha's mom is about 4 so maybe that would make her too old to have been Zena's litter mate? BTW I have a kitty named Zina. I love that name :)

jcj528
21st May 2008, 07:15 PM
Newmom:

Zena turned four on January 19! They are the same age.

newmom
21st May 2008, 07:41 PM
jcj528 Darn!! I just found out Misha's mom's b-day it is 4/30/04. If you go to this link

http://www.nopuppymills.com/forum/showthread.php?p=246257

You can see listings for the dog auctions. Her info is this:

138 FE Kathy's Sierra Molly TR25421805 4/30/04 #39 Wayt
Comments: AKC. Reg. Color: Ruby.

Thank you so much for the insights though!!!