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rocky
26th May 2008, 08:43 PM
is it really neccessary to neuter your dog i have been talking to different people and they say if it's a girl then yes but not necessary for a boy they can change and also gain weight my sister has had 3 boys throughout her married life and didn't neuter any of them and years ago when people had dogs they did'nt get neutered my daughters friend has a king charles the same as mine and he is 2 years and they have not neutered him please don't go mad at me i'm just not sure and need a bit more information i know i could look it up but i would like your personal appinion there must be someone on this forum that has not got their boy neutered i just feel vegas is going through so much just now i am a little scaredcavtiny

Ashley
26th May 2008, 08:57 PM
Well in my opinion I would get any male or female neutered or spayed.
Often many people get males neutered because of behavioural issues... but I also think of it from the other side... if someone was not responsible enough to have their girl spayed, and my wee boy (with his wee boy ;)) happened to do the deed... then I wouldnt want this poor dog to go through a pregnancy and birth.

Getting a dog neutered does help to curb sexual drives, and also minimise aggressive male behaviour in some cases. I think it does also help to curb 'humping'... of not just female dogs, but males as well! Male dogs will probably seek to fulfil their sexual drive by any means possible! Men eh?! haha.

I was also told that neutering can help reduce testicular tumors in males... but Im sure others will know best. Murphy is my first wee boy and he came neutered! Had he not, we would have got him done right away.

Hope that helped a bit! :)

Mom of Jato
26th May 2008, 09:23 PM
I also believe it is important to get them fixed. If you are not going to breed them, then there is no reason not to do it. Any vet will tell you it's the responsible thing to do- also it is much more healthy for them. Jato is going in to be neutered tomorrow morning- he will be 6 months old on Wednesday. He also has to have some baby teeth removed at the same time. Poor little guy. :eek: I'll be glad when it's all over.

PennyLane
26th May 2008, 09:52 PM
The only "changes" I know of when it comes to neutering are positive ones!!!

Karlin
26th May 2008, 10:22 PM
http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=21755

There are many discussions on this topic as well, if you use the search function and want to read earlier threads. :)

Some questions: Are you willing to keep your dog on the lead all the time? Because an intact male can be off like a shot and travel up to two miles if he scents a female in heat. Right now a female is in heat somewhere about 4 blocks away from em and every male in the area is hanging out down there, near a busy road. :( My neighbour's intact JRT leapt out of her moving car and tore down the road and was gone for over 24 hours on Saturday).

Over 70% of the dogs in the pounds where I do rescue are intact males. They die at a much higher rate. Intact males are more likely to roam, more likely to try and escape, more likely therefore to be hit by a car, lost or stolen, more likely to roam so far that they don;t end up in a shelter where you go searching for them. Intact males are also the top of the list for young dogs handed in as too difficult to manage/having behaviour problems to the pound and shelters and rescues. Most of my rescues are intact males -- probably 70%. There has to be a reason. I've only had about 2 neutered males, ever, in rescue.

Dogs gain weight after neutering only because their owners feed them too much. Simply feed a bit less -- and save yourself some money on food! :lol: -- and this will not be a problem. Generally neutered dogs need about 10-20% fewer calories.

Remember, you are still 50% responsible for unwanted litters if you are the owner of a roving intact male! All it takes is mere seconds. The argument I find most deplorable is 'don't bother to neuter because you don't have to deal with litters anyway with a male'. Please don't fall for that horribly irresponsible argument.

I've had to neuter, for health reasons, and at a bad time to put a dog through this operation, nearly every elderly male dog I've had in because the vets says they are showing signs of prostate problems. Neutering prevents this entirely.

Most people neuter because they do not want to manage the behaviours of intact males.

Unneutered cavaliers are much higher risk of being stolen and ending up in horrendous breeding situations. They are often stolen to order. :(

Finally: usually cavaliers or any purebred dog from a good breeder is homed with the requirement he or she be neutered -- it isn't actually an option and will be stated in your homing contract. :thmbsup:

WoodHaven
26th May 2008, 10:52 PM
We review this issue about every three months. :)
I have two neutered males and two intact males-- my dogs CAN'T get out (so straying isn't an issue), behavior issues are none, cancers are a toss up (some cancers are more common in neutered dogs/others higher in intact). So I have always felt that if someone KNEW they could keep their dog under control-- neutering was totally at the owners discretion. No medical procedure is without risks.

Karlin
26th May 2008, 11:45 PM
Sandy, true, but as I see it:

1) many pet homes especially with children opening doors, are not secure enough and totally underestimate what management means. I constantly encounter roving intact males in parks, on the street, etc

2) I have seen too many straying males hanging outside homes with intact females, dogs that are definitely not even from my area and who have clearly come a good distance

3) I have seen too many traumatised in heat females arrive at the pound along with about half a dozen or more males of all sizes, and all end up in the slammer. Very few are ever reclaimed. Most subsequently die though they are all obviously someone's dogs.

4) this is precisely where home breeding begins and breeding stock enters the system. The dogs I have rescued out of puppy farm situations were all obviously once someone's pets. All the rescues I know that work with SPCAs on farm raids have stories of finding dogs from good breeders that were never neutered and somehow, ended up living in a small cage and being bred. One prominent Northern Irish cavalier breeder has such a story on her website of finding a dog of her own breeding after an RSPCA puppy farm raid (and she went on to show her). The dog was certainly sold on intact or went straying and ended up in this horrific situation.

If there's no neuter clause in the contract, some dogs are definitely going to be bred and will end up as part of the BYB/puppy mill chain. I neuter all my rescues so that they can never end up in such a situation.

5) I think the only way this breed can now be salvaged, healthwise, is to close off every avenue of potential irresponsible breeding. I think this is going to become very clear within the next 12 months.

WoodHaven
27th May 2008, 12:21 AM
It may all be a moot point... the way spay/neuter fanatics are running the laws around here-- there won't be choice in what to do with our own dogs.

With the number of predators around here (not to mention the traffic) a cavalier wouldn't likely last a few days, let alone be out long enough to sire litters. They shot a cougar not too far from me. The people around here don't tie out dogs anymore due to the problem with coyotes. We don't have loose dogs here.

I have a spay/neuter clause in my 4 page contract. I only have two dogs of my breeding co-owned with others that are intact-- no, I co-own an intact male with my daughter. All three are males and I trust all three owners implicitly(two of them have children).

Caraline
27th May 2008, 01:49 AM
Well I have always been a bit anti-surgery, though these days my boys are neutered. Personally I think it depends upon your environment, how secure your property is and whether or not your boy is behaving himself. Our place is very dog secure, we are on acres, quite a distance from neighbouring properties. We had intended not to get Beau & Sonny done as we had not had problems in the past with other males, but when they started marking in the house, I decided to get them done.

I am vigilant with what & how much I feed and my boys are trim. I expect them to stay that way. It is the old equasion of energy in = energy out. Dogs don't get fat because they are neutered, they get fat because they are over fed. If you weigh your dog weekly & find he is gaining then you just cut back on his food a bit.

PennyLane
27th May 2008, 02:01 AM
Yes, my breeder has a spay/neuter clause - and actually requires proof sent to her from a vet that we have it done!

hbmama
27th May 2008, 05:14 AM
Alot of good thoughts on both sides here. My friend has a lovely intact (house trained) affenpinscher who came for play day and proceeded to mark inside my house as soon as he arrived. She was mortified, but apparently that is not uncommon when intact males go a visiting. I guess that is their special way of saying hello. :rolleyes: Anyway, the humping and marking is starting to annoy everyone so she has made the appointment for his big snip in a few weeks. Just something to think about on top of all the other truly valid reasons to neuter. If not, make sure you invest in a couple of good belly bands when out and about.:thmbsup:

MishathePooh
28th May 2008, 04:29 AM
If you decide against neuter, the very least you should do is have a vasectomy done.

<<the way spay/neuter fanatics are running the laws around here-- there won't be choice in what to do with our own dogs>>

If you've ever walked into an animal shelter or looked at craigslist, you'll understand why there are spay/neuter fanatics out there. Most people do not deserve the option of having their animals intact. Even with responsible owners, mistakes happen.

I also think males should definitely be neutered by a certain age to prevent prostate problems.

WoodHaven
28th May 2008, 01:39 PM
I've worked in rescue for the last 7 years. I'VE been in shelters. Many around here import small dogs for adoption. Many shelters around her get dozens of applications for any new adoptable dog that they put on their website.
THAT still doesn't make me want to give my rights to protect MY dogs to some politician that says 4-6 months is the right age to neuter.

MSN laws are FAILING to keep euthanasia numbers down.

hbmama
28th May 2008, 07:52 PM
I agree, not crazy about mandatory spay/neutering. I think they passed it in Los Angeles, not sure if and how they are enforcing the measure, but not Orange County where I live. They are charging ALOT of money to license intact dogs in the OC. (Problem is, the irresponsible people who keep intact dogs and let them run don't bother to license or properly vaccinate them either.) I guess you could say the officials are "barking up the wrong tree," :rolleyes: and penalizing the good responsible owners. On the urging of my breeder, I chose to let Dottie go through her first season, and we will spay mid July. I did have to pay $95.00 for her license :eek:...and it would have been $11.00 if she were spayed. Go figure.

rocky
28th May 2008, 07:58 PM
okay i think deep down i know i will have to get vegas done after reading all the reveiws ( WHICH HAS HELPED GREATLY THANKS) I just hate the thought of him having a operation but i know you have all been through it so i'll keep yoou posted i'm seeing the vet next month for is op on his eyes so hopefully it can get done then but there is also his baby teeth which probably need taken out aswell so i guess i'll have to make another appointment for that

CavyMom
28th May 2008, 08:28 PM
This is always a touchy subject - As a breeder, I take a different stance them most others in my breed (Italian Greyhounds - I don't breed Cavaliers). My puppies NEVER leave my home before 4 months of age, and even at that age, they only leave on a very strict spay/neuter contract unless it's someone who I've known for a while and I really feel like I can trust to actually show and help me improve my lines. Even with that - I only have one dog that I've EVER let go intact without a spay/neuter contract - With my rescue dogs, I'm even more strict. As a general rule, I don't like seeing a female spayed before 6 months at the youngest, same for males - BUT I've been known on more then one occasion to neuter 10 week old puppies so they could go to their new homes. I will NEVER EVER let a rescue dog, regardless of age, leave my house unaltered - There's to many homeless dogs already! And generally, the dogs of my own breeding, I keep until 5-6 months of age, and they're also neutered before they leave my home. That helps prevent any potential problems with irresponsible breeders or otherwise responsible owners having an oops before getting their dog fixed. I'm also what some would classify as a breeder who won't let go and has control issues (call me paranoid - I know there's alot of debate about doing this!), but I NEVER let dog of my breeding go without a strict contract AND a co-ownership, even pets. With the court systems now a days, without a co-ownership, in court it's almost impossible to inforce a contract, with a co-ownership I still have partial ownership of that dog and the contract is alot easier to inforce.

Anyway - My opinion? Accidents happen, just alike I feel on ID tags - Even responsible owners may have an accident, and the dog gets loose somehow, and an intact male running loose is very likely to hook up with an intact female in heat. Then, most likely without even your knowing, you've helped to contribute to the huge over-population problem in this country. Better safe then sorry!!!

Now as far as manditory spay/neuter goes, despite my feelings on spaying/neutering, I am NOT a fan of the idea - I don't think they law should tell us at what age we should neuter our pets, or even that we should have to! On the flip side - If it puts alot of BYBs and puppy mills out of business, it won't be all bad! But I'm still not for that motion. I think pet owners (and when you're taking about purebreds - The breeders!) should be responsible enough to make sure their pets are spayed/neutered.

WoodHaven
28th May 2008, 09:54 PM
A bit off topic-- but important to know:

http://www.gadzoo.com/chicagotribune/gadzoo2/Article.aspx?id=3188

MishathePooh
30th May 2008, 02:29 AM
<<I think pet owners (and when you're taking about purebreds - The breeders!) should be responsible enough to make sure their pets are spayed/neutered.>>

The problem is that they aren't! Sure the people on these boards may be, but the average owner isn't. Perhaps if these laws had been in place long ago, there wouldn't be all these puppy mill CKCS. We can never know, but I'd be willing to risk it if vets could make exceptions for responsible owners (just like they do with rabies vaccines).

OOH, great article!! I like the proposed "If a dog or cat doesn't have a rabies tag, or a dog is without a city license, then the proposed mandatory spay/neuter law kicks in."

Bruce H
30th May 2008, 12:25 PM
Great article! As stated, there is no question that, like so many laws, it's the responsible people who will pay the price.

BTW, every mandatory S/N law I've ever seen has HSUS behind it. I'll say no more!

Karlin
1st June 2008, 11:53 PM
But the fact is that MOST breeders do not sell on spay/neuter contracts, certainly not in Ireland or the UK. Nor do most who do, ever verify that this has been done. While the owner cannot register the puppies if they decide to breed, who cares, if you're a BYB? You can still make lots of money breeding your purebred if you don't do much vet care -- and most do not. Backyard breeders and puppy mills/puppy farms don't care much whether they have proper registrations or about the breed's health and welfare so they are not bothered. We all know the prices for junk-registered cavaliers are nearly the same as AKC-reg cavaliers, for example. The temptation for the owner of a purebred is enormous to have at least a litter to make a bit of money, and experience having puppies.

On examples of mandatory spay/neuter instead of the focusing on a single county in California, why not focus on an entire region of Australia where mandatory spay/neuter has been successful on lowering the stray dog population?

If responsible cat and dog breeders only have to be registered to have intact breeding animals, then why is a mandatory spay/neuter law for pet owners a problem? If I were breeding I'd have no issue with registering and being licensed. My only issue with some of the MSN bills that have come up is that the age is too young -- I'd have 6-12 months as the window for compliance. That is what many of us will be arguing for in the animal welfare bill here that will be coming up over the summer.


Best Friends Animal Society conducted a survey of shelters in 1992, and determined that 15 million pets were euthanized nationwide that year. The good news is, due to spay/neuter, breed rescue and the no kill movement, that number is now down to 5 million annually.


The 'best estimates' I have seen (just checking around) are actually anywhere from approx. 4-10 million euthenised annually in the US, so 5 would probably be a bit low (but is actually *higher* than the HSUS estimate...!). Also, anti spay/neuter arguments regularly belittle estimates from groups like Best Friends (a no kill shelter) -- which made a guess at a figure that may or may not be accurate in 92 (sounds high to me) -- but it conveniently contrasts enormously with the 5 million figure, for which no source at all is given -- probably because most pts rates are tracked by, yes, the HSUS, which is a bit awkward for the writer. National Humane pegs the figure at 9.5m. So you can kind of make up a figure to suit whatever point is being made. :)

Meanwhile, last year in Santa Cruz the anti spay/neuter campaign claimed all the figures for SC shelters were invented. The same San Mateo info gets quoted all the time but only for a single year after the ordinance was brought in -- and the increase in numbers in the shelter were actually pretty negligible in terms of typical ups and downs and could have been based on any number of factors (for example -- adding a single extra dog warden!). I'd be interested in delving a bit more behind some of the quoted figures and seeing how they bear up over time.

Meanwhile on other lists I read some arguing that there's no dog overpopulation problem anyway (I mean are these people for real? Have they been to their local pound?). And that because some rescue brings in dogs from Mexico it means again that welfare groups make up the overpopulation problem and that really, there aren't even enough stray dogs for all the waiting US homes so they need to import dogs.

Well, I live in one of the wealthiest nations in the world at the moment with a higher standard of living than the US according to OECD figures yet many UK rescues 'import' our stray dogs not because there aren't enough dogs in the UK for UK homes (though in some areas, it is hard to get small breeds that are more in demand) -- it is just that some UK rescues have focused on helping rescue Irish dogs, which are pts at a far higher rate (10 to 1) compared to the UK. Some on the US rehome irish greyhounds even though there aren't enough homes for the ex racing greys in the US. Our welfare standards here are dire (and the greyhound industry kill figures are not included in general pts figures and we know probably the same number again of greys are killed annually -- huge numbers are bred for racing and it is not an easy breed to place for the failed or retired racers). Likewise some in the US see the horrific situation for animals in some parts of Mexico and help out by adopting those animals to US homes. In Irish and UK welfare circles, the appropriateness of shifting the Irish dog problem to the UK is an ongoing debate.

Sorry, my natural tendency as a columnist coming to the fore, but I could easily write a counter to this guy's column. :cool:

Karlin
2nd June 2008, 12:38 AM
Incidentally the figures I found that came directly from san Mateo County (from a group opposing the ordinance!) indicate the figures now widely quoted in the anti spay/neuter campaigns are totally false. The *increase* in euthenasia in the incorporated county where the ordinance was enacted was actually only 3% going by the table here (and that is for a fiscal year including several months before the ordinance came in, meaning one could not really claim a direct relationship if the increase happened anyway); still the increase was only 3% and only meant 34 dogs, NOT 125%) and euthenasia figures dropped again the following two years (92-93: -5%, 93-94: -12%). One could argue fiscal year 92-93 would more accurately reflect the post-ordinance period and there was a 5% decline in pts rates that fiscal year. Unincorporated areas had a higher rate of pts but still that wouldn't add up to 125%.

http://www.fanciers.com/npa/sanmateo.html

I wonder where in the world the 125% increase in pts rates figure came from?

I'd be interested in seeing the statistics on non compliance with rabies as well. As far as I can tell, one website or blog posted this info and it was picked up everywhere as facts and examples of a failed ordinance.

Harry & Heidi's mom
3rd June 2008, 04:21 PM
my views purely as a pet owner and not a breeder or involved in rescue is

IF you're not going to breed get them "done"

i have heard of dogs jumping 6 ft fences to get to a bitch in heat!!

my 2 have been done, and in no way do i regret it xxx

ourempire
31st August 2008, 10:22 AM
I read this thread out of curiousity, since my sister in law has got a tiny intact male (mixed cavalier and Danish-Swedish farm dog (I don't know the English name). EVERY time we are together we have to keep our spayed Molly in a lead or caged, because he constantly tries to hump her. The two dogs like each other, and we wouldn't mind them playing, but it only takes 30 seconds before the male tries to hump Molly. We are really annoyed about it, and we have suggested that the male got neutered. But my sister in law thinks it is "a shame" to do that to her dog!
Now we are going to spend Christmas together (in our house), and of course she brings her dog, because she has no other alternative. I am now dreading a Christmas of me being annoyed a lot of the time.
This weekend we tried to suggest that she got the dog neutered, but no! She thinks it will change the dog's "personality" into something very passive, and she doesn't want to pay for it. So - we have to put our dog in a lead, when we are together. We can't even explain all the health issues to her. We tell her that it is groce to see to humping dogs in the living room, where we are eating, that our dog can get diseases, that our dog is a virgin and we want it kept that way etc. etc.
I feel that I did the right thing spaying our dog, and that my sister in law just doesn't care what happens between the dogs. I don't have enough experience with dogs to know whether all intact males behaves that way, but to me this male seems to only have sex on his mind, when he is together with Molly.
Well, it was a bit off topic, but it was just to let you know what it feels like, when you can't control somebody elses un-neutered dog.

Karlin
31st August 2008, 11:41 AM
Well, she could do a lot about this with training, and this all could also be a behaviour issue too. But I have had a lot of male intact cavaliers through who were like this and the behaviour totally topped once neutered. They were absolute pests.

As this is an issue for you and ruining your enjoyment of holidays and is likely to fester for years, unless addressed now, I think in your place I'd have a serious talk:

1) either they consider neutering and training the dog
2) or leave him at home or kennel
3) or crate inside the house and use a short lead for total control of him when he is at your house.

After all it is YOUR home, YOUR space and YOUR dog isn't the problem.

This dog could tie with yours meaning waiting a half an hour or similar for them to untie! This could be extremely distressing to your dog, too. It is simply, rude and unacceptable behaviour and the dog doesn't have the self control to be mixing with your female at this time.

ourempire
31st August 2008, 07:28 PM
Thank you, Karlin. I really appreciate your advice, and I think I will call her and have a talk. We normally have a very good relationship, so I will be able to reason with her. Right now the family thinks that I am the hysterical one regarding this humping male, but I will try to approach it carefully.

FranklinFreckles
31st August 2008, 07:47 PM
I live in Los Angeles, California and so the culture and expectations (as well as problems) are different here than they might be in other parts of the world but I am always SHOCKED to hear that people don't want to neuter their pets!

I know that if I see an intact dog here at the park, on a walk, or anywhere else I typically thing rather negative things about their owner. Here at least, not spaying/neutering is considered very irresponsible.

Animals are happier, healthier pets if they are neutered. If you are not showing or breeding, there is absolutely no reason not to neuter.

It's already been mentioned here on this thread that male dogs are less aggressive, less likely to roam and much better companions because they are not distracted with hormones. I neutered my male at seven months and I wish I had done it sooner because his incessant need to mark on walks drives me a little batty, hehe!

There are so many homeless pets in every part of the world -- why risk creating a litter when it is relatively inexpensive and healthier for your pet to just have them altered?

Edit: I am 110% for a mandatory spaying/neutering bill. Last I heard the proposed one in Los Angeles was defeated, but there was supposed to be another up and coming.

I've seen enough bad tempered and poorly socialized dogs owned by irresponsible dog owners here. These are usually the dogs that aren't neutered and it only makes their aggression worse! These are not the kinds of dogs that should be breeding, nor the kinds of owners who should be allowed to contribute to the overpopulation and destruction of millions of pets.

People need to stop projecting their own genital and reproductive insecurities on their pets. Your dog doesn't care if he is neutered, it doesn't make him feel embarrassed or hate himself or his life.

metime
5th September 2008, 08:22 PM
I came on this evening to ask for advice on neutering our 11 month old male and searched first.

Our vet is against neutering Cavvies for weight reasons but on the other hand my mother is always onto us to have it done.

From reading what the posts here I think I will have it done because:

(a) I am not going to breed him
(b) We live on the edge of town with the country just round the corner
(c) He has been showing tendencies towards my mothers male Bichon and some of DD's teddybears :eek:

How long does it take them to recover?

WoodHaven
5th September 2008, 08:48 PM
Animals are happier, healthier pets if they are neutered. If you are not showing or breeding, there is absolutely no reason not to neuter.

It's already been mentioned here on this thread that male dogs are less aggressive, less likely to roam and much better companions because they are not distracted with hormones. I neutered my male at seven months and I wish I had done it sooner because his incessant need to mark on walks drives me a little batty, hehe!

There are so many homeless pets in every part of the world -- why risk creating a litter when it is relatively inexpensive and healthier for your pet to just have them altered?


It isn't always true that neutered animals are healthier. There are urinary incontinence, hypothyroidism, and osteosarcomas that are higher in neutered animals. A neutered female sometimes have behavioral issues.
I like to be given a choice(neutering is just one small thing), and of course my choice shouldn't negatively impact another persons life. There are laws on the books that aren't being addressed if you are being bothered by an intact animal.

WoodHaven
5th September 2008, 08:51 PM
I came on this evening to ask for advice on neutering our 11 month old male and searched first.

Our vet is against neutering Cavvies for weight reasons but on the other hand my mother is always onto us to have it done.

From reading what the posts here I think I will have it done because:

(a) I am not going to breed him
(b) We live on the edge of town with the country just round the corner
(c) He has been showing tendencies towards my mothers male Bichon and some of DD's teddybears :eek:

How long does it take them to recover?

It depends if he has both testes decended. Many vets don't even use stitches -- I try to keep them calm for a week or two (males, females 2 weeks). They are usually back to acting normal in a few days.

freesia
7th September 2008, 08:03 AM
We had Barney done, he had been humping since we bought him at 8weeks old, nothing we tried could get him to stop he was getting worse. If we were going to breed of him it would of been a good thing, but I did have my doubts. I didn't want him done initially but once he was done I didn't have a problem with it. He is a bit overweight but that is our fault. We need to cut things down a bit.