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Is PETCRAZYME a dog person?

petcrazyme

Well-known member
I've never owned a dog ...yet.

I have always (since my early 20's) had two cats. Presently, I have Norman (now 14 yrs) and Wally (9 months).

They are purebred persian and they do SHED.

They do get DIARRHEA. Someone in one of posts asked me how I would feel washing diahhrea of a dog rear end. I wonder if they have ever tried washing diarrhea off a fluffy cats rear end!! They don't exactly take to water!.

They do VOMIT ...often.

Norman PEES on anything plastic (like grocery bags) if left on the floor. As a young cat he even peed on my brand new mattress (he had crystals in his urine). Over the years, he has cost me a pretty penny to deal with his never ending health concerns.

So the important question is ..does PETCRAZYME think that PETCRAZYME is a dog person. Yes. However, I'm married and I care about my husband wishes. He is not really a pet person, or at least a loud or messy pet person. He knows I'd have to leave him if I couldn't have my pets. So he tolerates them ...their shedding, diarrhea, vomit and snot (the old cat has chronic sinus problems). And when I'm supposed to be deep asleep at night I catch him sneeking into our bed with our little Wally in his arms.

Quite honestly, he'd probably grow quite fond of a sweet natured dog. That's why the questions regarding SHEDDING and DOGGIE SMELLS are so important. I adore the Cavalier and I think their temperament is perfect for us but, as much of an animal lover that I am, I really don't want to be covered in dog hair all the time either. Also, I'm a bit nervous of the Cavalier's health dispite intentional good breeding.

So with your help, I think I've decided to consider a cavalier cross to get a lower to non shedding dog and hopefully (fingers crossed) cash in in hybrid vigor. I know some of you will say that I should rescue a mutt from the local shelter but I have 2 young girls and I absolutely must be as sure as I can be of our future dogs temperament.

This forum is really awesome and I'm so glad I found it! Thanks for all your input.
 
I will tell you that I am NOT a dog person. I'm not. I never have been. All my life I have had cats and horses. As a child I had a weiner dog and it irritated the crap out of me. I am TERRIFIED of big dogs... my friends have a lab and I am scared to death of it!!

My husband is a DOG person. :) He grew up with Cav's. My kids wanted a dog and my husband wanted a dog and I lost the battle. We got a Cavalier.

Now who do you think loves the dog the most? The one that wants another one?

ME! LOL

Despite her shedding (and to be honest, it's only been since the summer is upon us that I have even noticed it) and her occasional doggy smell (she loves baths and gets one about every ten days to stay fresh... and it helps with shedding), I love the dog to pieces. She has converted me into a dog person, for sure. :) Or shall I say... a Cavalier person.

I would be wary of a Cav cross simply because I think any good Cav breeder would be hesistant to cross breed her animals. But I could be way off base with that... I am not really well versed on the so called "hybrid" dogs. Although I do know they absolutely still shed... at least the Labradoodle down the street does.
 
Oh, NO NO NO -- Please do not put money into the pockets of the horrible people that breed crosses deliberately and charge ridiculous sums for dogs that you can get at the local pound in the same mixes and are just as likely to have, or not have health issues, and just as likely to shed/not shed!! And please do NOT think you will get anything like 'hybrid vigour' with a cavalier cross! :eek:

The idea might make sense IF the parents are healthy, exemplary dogs from good breeders -- but they *will not be*. These people will not have dogs from any reputable, health focused breeder for either of those two breeds as no reputable breeder would ever part with a dog on open registration for breeding, to crossbreed breeders or to pet homes, for that matter -- so you are instead getting a cross from *two poor quality dogs*. If you go to their websites they absolutely scream backyard breeder -- and many breed volumes of dogs in a factory setup.

If you get a cavapoo for example you have *all the grooming issues* og a poodle, or of a cavalier -- depending on what coat they get. It makes more sense to go to a reputable, health focused breeder who does all the proper health testing on their breed and get a poodle (if you want a low shed breed). Or opt for a bichon or another low shed breed.

I can tell you the shelters and rescues are full of crosses with all sorts of health issues because they are poorly bred, from poor stock to start with, and generally poorly reared and end up with all the problems of backyard or puppy mill bred dogs.
 
This explains this better. More at this link.

Because of genetics, no dog regardless of breed or cross is safe from inherited health issues. A big myth that many less than ethical breeders of both purebreds and designer mutts will use is that their dogs are genetically free of all health issues. (Please for more on this topic, read reknowned canine geneticist Dr. George Padgett's article in Dog World from January of 1997 where he discusses the over 102 genetic issues that cross bred dogs can have). Hybrid vigor does NOT exists in the crossbred dog or the world of domestic dogs regardless of what anyone states.

Well, first, many health issues have no genetic test - just screenings. But even with this knowledge, a good breeder will screen potential breeding dogs. Since there are many health problems that can be found in various and even all breeds, no breed or cross is safe from them. It is up to the breeder to screen for what they can and have the dogs certified where applicable (such as OFA - Orthopedic Foundation of America).

Please click on the breeds in the cross/designer mutt you are looking at. Compare the lists and you will get an idea of what the cross can inherit. Please note that the lists of inheritable issues are not complete. Just the more common hereditary or possible hereditary health issues are listed. Also note, that some things most assume are not hereditary may actually have a hereditary basis like predisposition to ear infections and allergies or a predisposition to the often fatal problem of "bloat." Hips dysplasia is found in all breeds of dog from tiny to giants. It was discovered no longer to be a "big dog" problem. Even if it is not listed under the breed you are checking, please note that no breed or cross is immune from this hereditary issue. Any breeder should at least OFA or PennHip certify their dogs along with CERF and Thyroid.

And:

The Myth of Hybrid Vigor in Dogs

by Karen Peak

The concept of hybrid vigor assumes that a crossbred animal (and this term is most often used in discussing dogs) will be healthier than a purebred. In reality, this is often false.

In order to be a hybrid, an animal must be the product of two different species: donkey and a horse, offspring is a mule; lion (m) and a tiger (f), offspring is a liger; tiger (m) and lion (f), offspring is a tigon; wolf and domestic dog, offspring is called a wolf hybrid. Remember high school Biology, animal classification: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, and Species? Each animal in the crosses mentioned share the same Family (Equus, Felis, Canis) but are different species. The offspring are hybrids. Domestic dogs are the same species familiaris. When you cross breed domestic dogs (Canis familiaris ), you are within the same species; therefore, not creating a hybrid.

Hybrids are not problem free. In Ligers, no fertile male has ever been found and necropsies have proven sterility in them. Other issues in ligers and tigons: ligers may be prone to gigantism and tigons may be prone to dwarfism. Both hybridizations have shown an increase in cancer rates and decrease in lifespan. (Tiger Territory, M. Annabell, 2001). In wolf/dog hybrids, there are often behavioral issues. The domestic dog differs greatly in behavior from a wolf. Dogs were bred to be cooperative with humans while wolves fear humans and try to avoid us. Even domestic Wolves are far different from dog in terms of behavior. Dogs often accept leadership happily while adult wolves will fight for leadership within the pack. The wolf/dog hybrid can be a time bomb temperamentally when they hit full maturity. Wolves also differ from dogs in other ways including: skull structure, nutritional needs, estrus cycles, etc. (Canine Hybrid Issues Surrounding the Wolf Dog , M. Sloan, J. Moore Porter, 2001)

Returning to the domestic dog: Canis familiaris. A breed is not a separate species, it is just a set of genes specifically bred to exhibit certain traits like the coat an Old English Sheepdog has or the build of a Rottweiler. With C. Familiaris, we just took traits in dogs of the same species and developed them to various breeds. An example that may clarify this: all humans are Homo sapiens regardless of color, eye shape, etc. Nature helped develop certain traits to best suit the environment the H. sapiens were developing in. All domestic dogs are C. Familiaris; we just developed them into different breeds. Species is the same but there are differences based on need.

What determines a breed in the loosest sense is that when bred to another of the same breed, you will end up with the same traits. When you breed a German Shepherd Dog to another GSD, you only get GSDs. You will not get something that looks like a Labrador Retriever. If you cross a GSD and a Lab, you can get offspring that look more GSD, more Lab or resemble both parents in varying ways. With purebreds you have a predictable outcome. With crosses, you do not. It takes many generations to fix the traits in a new breed – not just four or five. For example, the Shetland Sheepdog, a breed from the Shetland Isles is NOT a miniaturized Collie. But the Sheltie is a breed that is only about 100 years old – relatively new. Collie was crossed into the early Sheltie to add to certain traits, but this also added the problem of oversized Shelties – something breeders have struggled with for many decades to correct due to the infusion of Collie blood into a developing breed.

Crossbred dogs such as the Cock-a-poo are NOT hybrids nor are they breeds. The Cock-a-poo Club of America states in its guidelines that in order to be a cock-a-poo, that you breed Cocker (American or English) to a Toy or Miniature Poodle. This is not a breed; it is a cross – a mutt. Cock-a-poos may look very Poodle, very Cocker or somewhere in between. Even a Cock-a-poo bred to a Cock-a-poo is not a breed. Remember, it can take decades or more to get true-breeding traits – or to repair damage done when something else is crossed in during the early history of a breed just beginning to come together.

There is research that states the domestication of what we know today as a dog may have started longer ago that assumed – maybe as much as 100,000 years ago based on mitochondrial DNA studies of wolves and dogs. (The Truth About Dogs, S. Budiansky, 1999) No one really knows for certain when wild canines began domesticating themselves or we began domesticating them. Therefore, the creation of specific breeds is relatively new in the grand scheme of the history of the domestic dog. Bones of truly domesticated dogs were found dating back to as early as 5,000 BC. Ancient pictures show dogs that were of definite sight hound type. (Dogs of Ancient Egypt, J. Dunn).

Back to Hybrid Vigor: is it true? No. Returning to the cock-a-poo example. Poodles and Cockers have many of the same health problems; therefore, a cross of them might actually stand a higher risk of inheriting a problem than a purebred pup from a good breeder. Some of the problems in both breeds are: hip dysplasia, progressive retinal atrophy, epilepsy, poor temperaments, allergies, skin and ear problem, Legg-Calve-Perthe's, luxating patellas, hypothyroidism, cryptorchidism, gastric torsion ( Cock-a-poos, Cindy Tittle Moore, 1997). Yes, things like ear infections, allergies, temperaments and gastric torsion have hereditary as well as environmental influences.

Now, why did I state a cross might stand a higher risk of a hereditary problem than a dog from a good breeder? Rarely do people breeding crosses do any health tests – genetic or otherwise. They assume that an annual veterinarian visit and shots are all that is needed. Maybe for a pet dog, but breeders need to consider the genetic health of puppies produced. Things such as Hip and Elbow Dysplasia, Luxating Patellas, various eye problems, von Willebrand's (a bleeding disorder) and Thyroid function are common in many, many breeds and crosses. The myth that purebreds are unhealthy or nasty came about due to bad breeders who either did not care about health testing or who were ignorant and felt that dogs who show no outward signs of a problem do not have it. A purebred dog from a good and educated source has a greater chance of being healthier than a crossbred.

So, the next time you hear about hybrid vigor and how mutts are healthier, remember this: hybrid vigor as related to dogs is a myth.



FMI on hybrid vigor and how it is misused in dogs, please read:

http://www.bullmarketfrogs.com/pages/generalarticles/caninebreedingprograms.htm

http://www.bulldoginformation.com/breeding-myths.html

and read from the late, great canine geneticist Dr. George Padgett who discovered over a hundred hereditary health issues in crossbred dogs.
 
I would be wary of a Cav cross simply because I think any good Cav breeder would be hesistant to cross breed her animals. But I could be way off base with that... I am not really well versed on the so called "hybrid" dogs. Although I do know they absolutely still shed... at least the Labradoodle down the street does.

I sooo want a Cavalier:(.

I've talked to a hybrid breeder in Ohio who has shown her cavalier and she says she has health clearances on him.

We have been living with a standard goldendoodle for the past several months and experienced her blowing out her puppy coat but it's been a few months now since I've noticed any shedding at all (her owners had her clipped though). I've read a lot of cavapoo references that say their dogs don't shed at all. There is always the possibility that they could shed; if they do it would probably be a low shed.
 
If you live with two persians, I can't imagine that a Cavalier would make much of an impact. Honestly - Penny is seriously "blowing out" that puppy coat right here in the spring, and yeah - it's shedding - but it's tolerable.
 
I have a friend who has a cavachon (bichon frise/cavalier mix) that has a very odd coat that is low shedding but has to be clipped frequently to prevent mats. This dog is adored by his family, but they recently found out that he has juvenile cataracts and a luxating patella which will require surgery. He is only a little over a year old. He came from a backyard breeder who raised both purebred cavaliers and bichons for sale. The purebreds were occasionally shown according to her breeder.:confused:

Many of the people who cross breed dogs will claim that "hybrid vigor" is the reason they do what they do. Problem is, you are often getting good and bad traits from both breeds, and you never know how it will end up. Some of these "non-shedding" crosses are being sold for $1,000 or more.:eek: I agree with Karlin that you should think long and hard before going this route and she has some good information posted for you to read.

That said, I too was anti-shed and doggie smell when researching the perfect dog for our family. My husband was not thrilled about having a "girly dog" (he wanted another lab) either. But we both are head over heels in love with our girl, the shedding can be managed and I LOVE her warm doggie aroma. It isn't strong, we just keep her brushed, bathed and cleanup after mishaps and we don't even notice it. Especially if you are already living with kitties who are a handful in that area:rolleyes: , a Cavalier would look really good. Again, whatever you decide, skip the intentional designer breeds. Also, if you want a specific temperament with certain traits, get a purebred from a reputable breeder who is concious of these issues and does the necessary health testing. Good luck in your search and good for you doing your homework and research before getting into something you and your family may regret.
 
Please don’t assume they will be non shedding dog. I’ve seen far too many six month old and above doodle type dogs advertise for sale that were bought as non shedding dogs but turned out to be the opposite.

I grew up with a cross breed dog. She was a JRT/Peke lived to a grand age of 21 but her coat while she was young was short like a JRT but as she got older and I’m talking way pass the puppy stage. Her coat became very thick like a Peke.

She loved the heat but her new thick coat cause her problems and I had to keep shaving her in summer to try and keep her cool.

A cross breed is pot luck, you can not assume which part of the two breeds your dog will take on.
 
I've talked to a hybrid breeder in Ohio who has shown her cavalier and she says she has health clearances on him.

Someone who has shown a dog (and you usually will find the 'show' was a small local show or a fun show or a non standard club show -- eg a show sponsored by the fake registries (eg not AKC or CKCSC) is not necessarily a reputable, health focused breeder. I can guarantee you that absolutely no reputable breeder will breed hybrids -- no one would spend time and effort and money to produce top quality, healthy cavaliers then cross them out to other breeds (this by the way *disqualifies* a dog from being shown and violates club ethics for most clubs worldwide!!). Also, they ALL say on their websites that they have 'clearances'. This will be the local vet, well paid to rubber stamp their dogs, giving clearances for health issues that require a specialist -- eg a vet cardiologist, a vet orthopedist, a vet neurologist. A vet cannot give clearances for 90% of what any purebred needs to be given health certs for.

A recent court case in New York had the judge in his judgment equally implicating the cavalier broker's (Marie Larkin's) vet for knowingly giving clearances to sick dogs.

If you really like a breed, find the best possible, reputable breeder and get a Dyson vacuum. If you have Persians, a cavalier is not going to be a big deal (y). A dog doesn't smell anymore than a cat does unless you don't keep the animals healthy and clean. My cats definitely are more noticeable scent wise than my four cavaliers!
 
Why not spend your hard earned money purchasing a purebred dog that suits your needs from a reputable breeder? Don't get sucked in by the smoke, mirrors & snake oil that people who cross breed spout. They are not interested in the breed (any particular breed for that matter); they are just interested in the money.

Sorry to be so blunt, but people who buy from them are as much the problem as they are.
 
I agree with all the posts above me. I'm truly against mix breeding on purpose. I would rather put my time and money into a addition to my family that I know has been breed well and the breeder will always be there for me.
 
I guess my question is, if you want a Cavalier so badly, why are you looking at crosses? Either get a bichon, poodle, OR a cavalier. It doesn't make sense to cross them on purpose. You never know what they're going to look OR act like, you're rolling the dice. With a purebred you know what you're getting.

So, I will say it again, if the shedding is a big issue for you, which it obviously is, just get a non-shedding breed!
 
sorry
I think i've said too much so i removed the original one


I just think you're ok without a dog.
 
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mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm i think you are great as you are tooooooooo
 
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I will stick my neck out and say that I have no problem with breeders who breed for the pet market, pure or mixed, as long as they are having their breeding dogs assessed and health tested, and are as well caring for them as I would care for my own. I make this statement for my area only, as we no longer face a pet overpopulation problem, but we do face a problem as burgeoning puppymills have discovered the market here and are selling puppies from unhealthy stock - mostly pure and AKC registered - for a thousand dollars and up.

Where I live - which is a province the size of the state of Texas - our pounds have not euthanized healthy and adoptable for years, and years. Small dogs are in particular demand, with the commercial breeders even having waiting lists.

Four weeks ago I went to retrieve a shaved, terrified, unsocialized Cavalier female who was being "retired". She had no voice box, and the owner would not let us on the property but brought the girl out to us. They are licensed and legal. $1000 is what we paid for her initial vet visit - mostly dental. This is not my first time doing this and I am sure there are others as familiar with this situation as I am.

This "commercial operation" has been up and running for 9 years now as I have been tracking them and others in this area. They sell AKC registered pups from untested, unsocialized stock for $1000, and do not have any trouble finding buyers.

If we keep reiterating this nonsense about not breeding for the pet market, more of this will continue where I live, and those taking that hard line are as much to blame for the suffering of these mill females as the millers taking advantage of the market.

I have saved this quote and although it is about Scotties, but suits what is going on with small dog breeds here.

**********************

"There is in this disjunction of demand and supply a fateful breakdown between responsible breeders and pet buyers which amounts to dismissal of the pet marketplace by our best producers. Even putting the most positive spin on the AKCs 5% (best producer) estimate it is manifest that our best breeders are breeding with little or no reference to the larger Scottie public’s needs. This is a serious problem because you cannot fault buyers of pet store Scotties and then breed with no regard to supplying those buyers eagerness for a Scottie. Railing against backyard breeders and commercial breeding all who subsidize them ishollow when those who know and understand what is genetically at stake choose to isolate themselves behind private breeding agendas, thus driving an abandoned Scottie public into the back alleys of puppy production to meet their passion for a Scottie.

Meeting one third of the public demand for Scottish Terriers patronizes the public by requiring them to subsist on the Scottie-crumbs that fall from the show bench table. That is not right, and is another subtle form of breeding blind - blind to the public interest.


****************

What I have found is that there are very few purebred breeders breeding with the care they should, and even less mixed breed breeders doing this. (I read on another list that only 2% of purebred Cavaliers are produced with the proper health testing behind them.) However, because I live where it IS necessary for pet market dogs to be bred, I have no objection to allowing people the choice of a mix, if it is from a breeder doing all they should.

And, despite all those who will say "it can't be" I have found breeders of mixes doing all they should, and in fact some doing much better than the Cavalier breeder south of me, who is a judge, and still does not MRI and breeds her females too young.

I have a mix from a wonderful breeder - and yes I know all that that should mean. Why would I not get just one breed or the other . . . because it is my choice to gamble if I want to. I don't like to be told that I can only choose from a dictated list. I don't believe the registering clubs and kennel clubs have any kind of a right to decide that only specific dogs should be bred in specific ways. For the most part I find that within the clubs our small purebreds have become exceedingly exaggerated with shortened muzzles and ridiculous coats - and we are to accept that they should be making decisions for all of us?

Markets have always dictated in the past, and dogs have continued to evolve accordingly, and they should continue to as well. To take thousands of years of dog evolution and try to stop it, or let one particular group take charge of it, is nonsensical.
 
Arlene, I have yet to find a single breeder of mixed breeds (excepting some labradoodle breeders, which are fairly well established now as a breed) that actually does PROPER testing. If you can name me a single cavalier breeder for the pet market who cardiac tests and MRIs I will be happy to be proven wrong :flwr:. Likewise, as people who bred mixes will never have been able to obtain a dog from a health focused line so they are starting with poor quality to begin with and poor quality does not produce healthy sound dogs. I have yet to see a single website that indicates the proper tests for the breed (most SAY they 'health test' but read the small print and what they mean is, my vet looks at the dog. Well, that is not remotely adequate for breeding, especially in a breed as seriously health challenged as the cavalier!).

A report endorsed from the most senior health and welfare experts as well as the British govt was released today in the UK, in which they argue that breeding 'new' breeds and crosses for the pet market MUST stop because of the introduction of a growing list of serious breed problems from the two purebred parents into these new mixes -- it is *unethical* and *immoral* in other words. The breed they are focusing on as an example of a breed with serious problems due to poor breeding practice is: the cavalier, because of SM and MVD.

I will be posting the report for people later this evening when I get the chance.

Please: if people are seeking a dog, either rescue a mix from a shelter or pound, or a breed from breed rescue and save a life, or go to a reputable, health focused breeder who can PROVE their health bona fides and is working on behalf of the breed, not their bank account. The world has more dogs than people want, and millions die every year. The last thing the world needs are more casual bred dogs lining the pockets of money-focused breeders and dying by the needle every week once their charm wears out.
 
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