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Harry & Heidi's mom
28th May 2008, 07:41 PM
I'm at my wits end with Heidi and i need help!

I'm sure i'm missing something that i'm sure you'll be able to help with!

Heidi is now 6 months old and is still doing her business in the house. I take her outside first thing in the morning, then again once i'm back from the school run, lunch time, before i go for kids at 3pm and she's in and out during the evening.
She is fed at 9.15am and again at 6pm.

she will do her business outside no problems, but will also do it indoors without warning,

harry is really good, he circles near the back door if he wants out, and i know Heidi will have her own clues but i honestly can't spot them. she doesn't sniff the floor or anything.

I can't understand why she will go outside and do her business and then come straight inside and do it again.


HELP

Kristy
28th May 2008, 07:51 PM
I don't own a dog but this is a great link with lots information:
http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=11857
Good Luck!

Harry & Heidi's mom
28th May 2008, 08:24 PM
thanks but i think thats more for little puppies!

heidi is crate trained at night and will go all night without messing in her crate.

Kristy
28th May 2008, 08:32 PM
here is a post about a 7 month old doggie going inside the house when the owner thought he was potty trained:
http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=24838

found another:
http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=22511

hopefully someone with more info will chime in soon :)

ruby2
28th May 2008, 08:53 PM
Im no expert and wouldnt pretend to be. All i can tell you about is my ruby and she is just over 6 months so you might be interested. I didnt train her to a crate because she had her own room down stairs with a baby gate at the door, Im sure some of the other people will tell you what they told me when i had problems but she would have only been 3 months then. They said to cut down on her space, which i did and it worked a treat. I was giving her too much space. I also got the training book, which karlin recommended, which was ok. I found the most of the advise that i got here on the site was better.
I cut down on her space and took her out on the lead with my treats and my clicker. I used to walk with her for an hour at a time at the start to get her to do a wee or a poo on demand. Then i would treat her etc and back into her downstairs room. Most people recommend training them in a crate but i didnt to be honest because i had her room. I didnt train her to each room either. Its only in the last few weeks that i have left her go through the rooms downstairs, but not for long. As the book says once she has done her poo and her wee on demand outside then i will leave her into the house.

I too like you feed ruby at approx 8.30 in the morning and around 6 in the evening. She can go for approx 2 and a half hours inside without needing to go now. Im sure she would do longer but i wouldnt like to do that to her. She now goes herself even in the middle or a hurling match with my husband out in the garden, she will sneak off and do her poo where i trained her. She hasnt wet or poo'd inside since she was about 4 and a half months old.

I would think you will be told by the people that know alot more than me to start all over again with the training, maybe reduce her space, and maybe take her out more for the start....:thmbsup:

Harry & Heidi's mom
28th May 2008, 08:56 PM
but what i don't get is she will go outside and wee, then come inside and less that 10 mins later wee again.

this has gotten worse since she was spayed, i know it's not down to bladder control cos she can hold it all night from 10pm until 6.30-ish

ruby2
28th May 2008, 09:15 PM
Well sometimes ruby will wee outside and poo outside and then wee again before coming in. Once i had her trained to wee and poo and demand she is brilliant. But i had her on the lead and walked and stood there in the freezing cold until she did it. The experts say that when they wee inside then you cant give out to them or then they will be afraid to wee in front of you when you ask them to. Does she wee and poo for you on demand?? I say go on ruby quick wee wee wee good girl quick wee wee. I sound like a right ninkumpoop....
No she wont then do it inside. Maybe if you tell her again to wee before she comes in she might do another? Ruby does go all night too. from about 11pm until 7 am. On saturday she will go until 9am without wetting inside. Do you give her a treat when she does it outside..Ruby learned that if she did the wee outside she would get a treat and if she did it inside i just lobbed her outside to finish it. As karlin would say even if you have to strap her onto you to keep an eye on her. Ruby was spayed 13 days ago and it made no difference to her at all with her wee and poo. I know its really frustrating for you. It was for me at the start when she was distroying the place but we did get there. Now we can bring her in with us in the sittingroom!!!!!! with my good wooden floor and she will go into her bed in front of us when we are watching a dvd when the children are gone to bed, and its lovely. I said to my husband thats the way she should be. Its really only now that we are really enjoying her.

The ladies and gentlemen here will also say that they are not really trained until up to a year old. But i must say ruby is very very good...:thmbsup:

Karlin
28th May 2008, 10:02 PM
It doesn't have anything to do with spaying. It is simply that she isn't housetrained, and you shouldn't be worried: she is really pretty young to be close to being fully housetrained. Six months is just a puppy! You generally wouldn't have a housetrained dog for another 6 months with 90% of dogs. She still needs training, in other words -- and has no idea that because you take her out at regular intervals, that she isn;t supposed to go in the house in between. You have to take the time to supervise 100% of the time, and never allow her to make a mistake if at all possible. If she is going inside, it is because she is being allowed to go inside (eg -- who was watching her/not watching her when she got the opportunity to go? :) ); she hasn't learned fully yet not to go inside which is NORMAL at her young age, you are likely giving her too much freedom rather than watching her constantly, and she now has the start of a regular habit of weeing inside. This isn't her fault -- it is always and only because we, the owners, haven't correctly conveyed what the desired behaviour is, and prevented the undesireable behaviour from happening through vigilance. Many people lapse on watching their dog from about 4-5 months on based on some initial success (we have probably ALL been there with a dog!) -- but a dog that age is just way too young to be reliable. Even an 8-10 month old is unlikely to be fully reliable.

I'll make the suggestion I always do -- if you do not own it, please get Shirlee Kalstone's book on housetraining and follow it to the tee. Do not expect (as we all initially do!) that simply because you get success for a week or two weeks or a month, that you have a housetrained dog :). Most dogs will need constant supervision when inside, and also to be trained to each indoor room, over the first 9-12 months of their lives. Most dogs are not mature enough to be truly housetrained, without regular accidents, until about 12 months. The links posted in previous posts will take you to some good discussions and links. :thmbsup: But in general, the answer is: start over, and give 100% supervision and management 100% of the time.

CavyMom
28th May 2008, 10:22 PM
I agree 100% with Karlin - I can't tell you how frusterating it is to get a dog in rescue because someone "couldn't" house train it, when after it's surrendered to me, it never has another accident - It's not because I'm magical, it's not because I'm an excellent trainer - It's because I just don't allow them the oppertunity to make a mistake! With a 6 month old puppy, I generally still use the "umbilical cord" method, where the dog is always tethered to me on a 10-15 ft lead at all times. I also always go outside with a puppy at that age, and make sure it's praised EVERY TIME it goes potty outside.

Another method I've had some friends who have used successfully is teaching the puppy a very strong stay. Give the puppy a spot in the house (either a bed, or a blanket, anything!) and when you're puppy is in the house, ask her to stay in that spot. If she gets up, return her to her spot - This method takes alot more consistancy and patience then the umbilical cord method. The idea here is teaching the dog control, teaching it where it's suppose to be, but it still requires constant supervision, as the dog needs to be returned to it's spot EVERY TIME it gets up without being released. I've never used this method myself, simply because I often have more then one dog I'm working with at the same time, but with just one dog that needs work on house training, it might work for you. The most important thing is, what ever method you choose - STICK WITH IT, never give your dog a chance to have a mistake, never leave them unsupervised until you're SURE they won't have an accident!

I've only had a couple of dogs that truely couldn't be house trained - And those dogs it was always due to an underlying physical problem, sometimes it could be corrected, sometimes it couldn't - But at only 6 months old, I can almost guarantee you that much closer supervision combined with rewarding the dog for going potty outside will soon leave you with dry floors again!

Ashley
28th May 2008, 10:24 PM
Oh damn... I typed a big long post and deleted it by mistake!

Here goes...

I think you should read the threads that were mentioned earlier about the puppies. I know you dont think that 6 months is a puppy... but in my opinion they are puppies at that age. Holly is 9 months and i'd say she's still a puppy.

Holly has not had an accident in the house for a couple of months, thankfully... but if she happened to have a wee accident... well, it comes with the puppy package. haha.

A good way to keep an eye on her is to even attach her lead, and attach it to you. Just go about doing housework, work work, like you usually would. That way she builds a bond with you, as well as you being able to keep a close eye on her.
Signs of her needing the toilet WILL be there, and this will enable you to watch closely and spot things you didnt notice before.

I live in a flat, so I think housetraining for us was that bit harder, but this was a good wee technique to help us! And its worked a treat!

Good luck!

joanna
28th May 2008, 10:35 PM
I agree completely with Karlin, 6 months is still very young to fully trust her. The best thing to do is start from scratch and reward her every time she does well. However, I do think there are some dogs who will let you down every one in a while. Our Brandy and Twinkle are completely trustworthy but once or twice a year Daisy Boo will do something disgusting like pee in her bed for no good reason even though I am home all day and she can come and go as she pleases.

Harry & Heidi's mom
28th May 2008, 10:43 PM
thanks guys


BACK TO BASICS i think

but what i still can't understand is why she'll wee outside then again inside like 5 mins later???

ruby2
28th May 2008, 11:19 PM
thanks guys


BACK TO BASICS i think

but what i still can't understand is why she'll wee outside then again inside like 5 mins later???
Maybe she needs to be checked by a vet to make sure she doesnt have an infection or anything......

See i knew what everyone would say,,,,because they all said it to me before........you will get there....start again.....i know its hard :bang::bang:

Harry & Heidi's mom
29th May 2008, 10:39 AM
LOL Ruby2 it is hard, very hard


i can't remember going through this with Harry

ruby2
29th May 2008, 11:03 AM
LOL Ruby2 it is hard, very hard


i can't remember going through this with Harry

Thats women for you i guess........ I have only ruby and never had a dog before so i dont know about boys. My mother has a bishon frise 1 year old and she is really frustrated with all the wee inside. And she had no bother with rosie her cavalier. My mother cant figure out how my ruby is so good.

Did you try reducing her space??? and only give her enough room to sleep as in maybe a crate or downstairs bathroom and then take her out every hour and start all over..with the treats etc.... thats what i did with ruby.....not to leave her around the house at all until she learns. I would say really reduce the space either a crate or just her bare bedroom. So she wont wee in her own bed if you know what i mean. i have the clicker for ruby and she knows if i click that she is owed a treat for a wee or a poo. I only use it for that purpose..
let us know how you get on....:xfngr::xfngr:

Harry & Heidi's mom
29th May 2008, 11:39 AM
yeah she sleeps in a crate at night, and goes in there during the day when we go out and does not mess in there.

ruby2
29th May 2008, 12:12 PM
yeah she sleeps in a crate at night, and goes in there during the day when we go out and does not mess in there.

Maybe you could leave her in there then and take her out every hour and treat her so she will really identify outside with wee and not inside.

Karlin says you should train them in the crate in each room.. maybe you could try that after a while of having trained her to her own room first....:)

Bruce H
29th May 2008, 01:04 PM
I agree with the others, you just have to be patient. 6 months old is still a puppy. I hate to say it, but we have had a couple dogs that were at least a year old before they were reliable. About drove us crazy!! Generally ours are mostly reliable around 9 months with just a very rare accident; that's usually our fault.

Karlin
29th May 2008, 02:35 PM
Well no, you don't need to crate train to every room, but you do have to use all the housetraining rules, room by room; you have to simply recognise that if you housetrain a dog that is confined to the kitchen at first, it isn't necessarily (or usually) going to recognise that your living room also is 'indoors' and that he isn't supposed to go in there, either. As you increase the area in which a dog is allowed to live, you have to be mindful that the dog will really not think like a person and know that a house is one entire unit where all the rules are the same (particularly as they often are not -- some rooms are for eating, some for sleeping, some with furniture to sit on, some without etc).

Harry & Heidi's mom
29th May 2008, 03:46 PM
hi karlin,

heidi is only crate trained in the kitchen, and even that is for bedtime or when we are out.

i don't like to over use it as i don't want her to end up hating it, at the moment she knows at bed time or when we've got coats on to go out she needs to go in and wait for her treat!!!!!!

i guess i'm forgetting that 6 months is still little
x

chloe92us
29th May 2008, 06:10 PM
I had a big problem with accidents when Ollie was around 6 months and it was due to my not watching him enough. I went back to the basics...he was IN HIS CRATE if I could not watch him exclusively- even if he JUST went outside!!!!! So, if I was making dinner, he was in the crate. If I was giving my son a bath, he was in the crate, etc. If your dog likes the crate at night, he/she won't mind it during the day either.

You need to start using the crate as a training tool and not just for confinement if you can't keep your eyes on your puppy at all times. It is not torture and he/she will not hate it! I promise! :paw:

Ollie, now almost 9 mos, still has the occasional accident but, again, when it happens I always say "shoot! i knew i should have taken him out!!!" I wasn't watching him OR the clock. :(

My other Cavalier, Casey, took a full year to fully train. Now she has the bladder of steel and refuses to step foot out of the house until she eats breakfast! And at night, she goes out around 8 and will NOT go out again. So she, by choice, goes 12 hours between her night potty and morning potty. Go figure!

Harry & Heidi's mom
29th May 2008, 10:38 PM
thanks everyone xx

momay
29th May 2008, 10:39 PM
I agree with Karlin 100% also. I did not take my eyes off of Sofee for 12 months (well, to the best of my ability) and it really made a difference. We did not give her run of even 1/4 of the house until 10 months and then only the downstairs at 14 months. She still had two accidents around 14-15 months. It takes a lot of time with smaller dogs.
With Sofee, the only way she really learned was when I saw or at least thought she was going to go in the house, I startled her with a saying a firm 'ah ah' and said 'outside', and outside we went, very quickly. Her command to pee is 'hurry up' and she still pees on command with this word now. she was treated when really little when she went pee outside, but no longer.
I think I've said it five thousand times and she's only 21 months! To be honest, she still is within my site 97% of the time and the other 3% my husband can see her. It's just worth the effort to be sure she is safe and not getting into trouble. I trust her mostly now with being housetrained but you never know.
Good luck!

cosmic81
30th May 2008, 01:04 PM
my nemo is 6 month too! he is still not very reliable either. we put in playpen or block the room off so we can see where he is going.

i know exactly where your frustration is coming from. your other dog is probably like my other dog who was easier to potty train.

however i do start to see improve this week. although nemo just had a big poopoo in the house today. at least it was right next to the patio! which is in the blind spot of our living room. so i didnt know that he wanted to go.
my biggest worry is that sometimes he holds it from 7pm to the next day!!!
so i know he can hold it.

i am sure our puppies will do much better in a few more month to come!

Cavvygirl
30th May 2008, 08:39 PM
I trained ours by never giving them the chance to toilet indoors (where possible), I would always look out for the circling and sniffing etc by if not then as a rule every hour they would be outside until they went to the toilet and gradually went longer between trips outside. It can be very frustrating at first but I have to say Ashton half trained Rio it was half the work!!:)

Harry & Heidi's mom
30th May 2008, 10:56 PM
yeah cosmic it's hard


but today she woke up from her nap and wee'd immediatly!! no sniffing or anything!

i've started to keep her in the room i'm in so i can watch for her signs, but this time there was none at all,

TillyTommy
30th May 2008, 11:46 PM
Thats when you need to be there promptly. The second Libby wakes I take her straight outside. I dont even give her a chance to walk out of her crate as i know its at that point (after napping) she will need the toilet within seconds

ruby2
31st May 2008, 11:49 AM
maybe if you can keep her closer to the door when she is asleep. even wake her from the sleep. and bring her straight outside.

I sometimes used to bring the soft bed with her in it to the door and then scoot her out of it, out the door. She would be half asleep and google eyed but she didnt have a chance then to wee inside.

keep it up.
it will be worth it in the end.:xfngr:

Chloe Meister
25th July 2008, 02:34 PM
I know that this thread is quite long with a lot of good information which we have taken seriously but we too are at witts end. Chloe is the most intelligent, lovable dog that we have ever encountered. She knows people's names, she runs to the door when you say "do you want to ride in the car", she runs to her doggy life preserver when you say "do you want to go for a ride in the boat". Having said all of this she still pees and poos in our house almost daily.

We have read Shirley Kalstone's book, several times. We do everything that she describes. Chloe is 10 months old and just last night she peed right in front of us 15 minutes after she peed outside. She is vet checked and has no physical issues. Last night I brought her out two seperate times for a total of almost an hour because we knew she had not pooped but she just sat there. I walked in the door and as I was going to pick her up to place her in her crate she pooped immediately in the foyer. I have talked to many experienced "dog" people who have never experienced anything like this, especially those who meet her and see how intelligent she is. We love this dog dearly but our Brazillian cherry floors, oriental rugs etc. are paying a dear price for Miss Chloe. Please someone assure me that she will some day decide to do her business outside.

KV

brotymo
25th July 2008, 04:50 PM
I don't know if this is an option where you live, but I installed an automatic pet door, and Pixie could let herself out (into a safe, fenced back yard with my larger dogs) when she needed to go potty, and there were no accidents after that. This type of door can be switched off so you can keep her from getting out if you don't want her to go, and it only opens by the signal from a transmitter on the collar, so no raccoons or stray cats etc. can get in. Before we got the door, we would occasionally miss her signals, and had some random peepee accidents, though she would do them on either a puppy pad if we had it down, or on the small area rug by the front door. She was confined to the kitchen when we were not home or unable to watch her, and that is when we used the puppy pads until we got the door.

hbmama
26th July 2008, 04:24 AM
The best thing we ever put in was the doggie door. As Dottie was 6 months old when we got her, her breeder had already trained her to use it.

She lets herself out when she has to go, and returns when through. LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the doggie door!:thmbsup: