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shan
27th June 2008, 05:44 PM
while out looking at a litter recently i came across and female black and tan i year old for sale the breeder said she was for sale as he was getting out of black and tans 250 euros for her with papers he also had several littters of pups for sale without papers he said most would be going to uk i did not buy a puppy but since have been thinking of the one yearl old and worrying where she will end up as she is not neutered i have been thinking of buying her what do you all think my husband thinks giving him money with only encourage him to continue what do you alll think has anybody else here bought a cavalier to save her from a possible worst fate:confused:

Karlin
27th June 2008, 05:51 PM
Moving this from the rescue section as it is only for rescue dogs, not for dogs that might be purchased. I will move this to the general section as basically, you are asking about whether to buy a dog. :thmbsup:

Lots of breeders rehome breeding dogs -- often they simply go to pet homes. If you want another dog, and like this one, then buy her. If you don't want another dog, then it really does not rescue the dog to buy her from a puppy farmer in this way. I will buy dogs if they are in a very bad way or are very cheap or are at risk but this is not a dog known to be at any risk, so a purchase is really a private decision for you. Sadly many people rehome intact dogs without giving a thought to whether they will be bred from; this includes the majority of rehomings every day of pet dogs in the UK and Ireland from what I come across online and in papers. :(

However, I would not go near a breeder selling puppies in this way -- he is definitely a puppy farmer; the fact that he sends all his puppies to the UK underlines this. Only ever buy from reputable show breeders who have the cardiac certs and other tests they can SHOW you. Papers mean absolutely *zilch*! There's good advice on finding a puppy and screening breeders in the Library section or on www.ckcsrescue.com. :)

chloe92us
27th June 2008, 06:24 PM
This is exactly how i got my b&t male. There was a BYB that had a litter of B&T's and found out the hard way that they do not sell. At the time, I was looking for a young adult to adopt but kept running into dead ends. So, I called the lady. I went and looked at the 5 MO pups and brought him home. Their house was lovely and she kept them well, so I felt pretty good about it. Luckily, she was being very selective about who she placed them with- which is a good thing b/c she was practically giving them away. I'm sure she expected to have a tri litter and make some money, but that didn't happen and she has since spayed her bitch. :thmbsup:

Karlin
27th June 2008, 06:28 PM
If there are no health certs for the breeding stock, and the parents and grandparents haven't been cardiologist tested, and the parents are (typically) under 5 and therefore well outside the MVD protocol, it doesn't matter how nice a house is kept or how nice the breeders seems to be -- they are knowingly and willingly damaging the breed and selling on puppies at far higher risk of longterm health problems. Also BYBs often actually keep the dogs in poor conditions and bring them inside for 'viewings' to make them look like decent breeder. :( On no level, are they OK breeders.

chloe92us
27th June 2008, 07:13 PM
I'm sorry, I have to disagree that ALL BYB are knowingly and willingly harming the breed. YOU may think they are, but I don't think they do. I absolutely believe that most BYB do it b/c they like the breed and want to make some money on the side. These are probably the same people who bought their studs or bitches from a pet store, so no they do not realize they are harming the breed. They just don't have a clue!

Also, I'm not saying that because the lady's house was nice she must have been an okay breeder. I just meant that her house was nice and she was nice, and her dogs were clean and I could tell they were house pets as there were baby gates up all over the place and they were an older couple so did not have children. I don't think it was a show. She was one of the BYB I'm talking about above. A woman who likes Cavaliers, decided to breed one of hers (she has two), and it didn't turn out the way she thought it would and probably will not do it again. That is what I think of when I think of a BYB.

Cathy Moon
28th June 2008, 12:54 AM
I'd say that a BYB is harming the breed (whether knowingly or unknowingly) and leave it at that.

If they're not doing the proper health testing and breeding protocols, then they are harming the breed. And if they're not breeding for show, they probably are not breeding structurally sound dogs that meet the breed standard, plain and simple.

Anyone who is breeding cavaliers for the sole purpose of augmenting their income is harming the breed.

If they have no consciousness about what they are doing, it doesn't make what they are doing right. We had a 2 year old BYB rescue dog who was PTS because of severe health problems. The BYB never cared to know what happened to him.

shan
28th June 2008, 01:17 AM
as far as i am aware at the moment the ckcs club of southern ireland does not require there members to heart test there breeding stock the only requirement for registering any litter with them is two years membership leaving people in southern ireland with very little chance of aquiring a puppy from a healthy background it is no wonder people end up buying puppies from back yard breeders it is aprox 650 euro for a club members puppy with no heatlh testing currently required of them and therefore no real incentive to pay the extra money required on what basis can the extra cost be justified with many of the members not even showing their dogs they are able to charge the extra money because they are members of the club for two years

LuckysMommy
28th June 2008, 04:23 AM
I'm sorry, I have to disagree that ALL BYB are knowingly and willingly harming the breed. YOU may think they are, but I don't think they do. I absolutely believe that most BYB do it b/c they like the breed and want to make some money on the side. These are probably the same people who bought their studs or bitches from a pet store, so no they do not realize they are harming the breed. They just don't have a clue!

Also, I'm not saying that because the lady's house was nice she must have been an okay breeder. I just meant that her house was nice and she was nice, and her dogs were clean and I could tell they were house pets as there were baby gates up all over the place and they were an older couple so did not have children. I don't think it was a show. She was one of the BYB I'm talking about above. A woman who likes Cavaliers, decided to breed one of hers (she has two), and it didn't turn out the way she thought it would and probably will not do it again. That is what I think of when I think of a BYB.

Don't worry Chloe. I understand where you are coming from and feel the same way.

Karlin
28th June 2008, 09:59 AM
Anyone who has spent 5 minutes researching the breed knows about the hideous problem of MVD in the breed. Anyone therefore who chooses NOT to cardiologist certify their dogs and follow the MVD protocol has chosen to harm the breed. It is that simple. If YOU know about MVD, how can a *breeder* not know? How can they look at the pupies they produce and know they are risking placing a terribly sad burden on a family that may lose that dog at 5 or 6 due to their deliberate choices?

The breed is in serious trouble of survival already due to MVD. Breeders of any kind who ignore what they KNOW is right to do are destroying the breed. Or are so ignorant that they either have willfully chosen not to do, or to ignore, the most basic common sense about breeding and neglected to do the most basic and minimal research on the breed they've chosen.

It is impossible for anyone who buys a SINGLE book on cavaliers, visits a SINGLE club website, reads a board, basically just googles the breed, not to learn within minutes about the problem of MVD.

If pet owners were more careful in what they expect from a breeder, and less focused on getting a cheaper puppy or a puppy this week because they don;t want to wait, the breed would be in far better condition. Pet owners have enormous power, as what they ask for and expect and *demand* will shape the puppy market. I cannot stress this enough -- the problem is NOT simply poor breeders, folks, it is also US -- it is pet owners who just do not care if they can get their dog cheaper or more easily then supporting the breeders who DO health test and do breed so that you end up with a cavalier that actually looks like the breed should look. If you buy from these people, YOU are supporting the sad exploitative cycle that has already demolished the gene pool to dangerous levels. Every single cavalier owner or prospective owner has the ability to make a major and powerful contribution to the breed and its future simply by buying puppies ONLY from reputable breeders who health test properly (not just vet heart checks!).

There is only one breed club to my knowledge in the world that REQUIRES heart testing and that is Sweden's. What a club requires isn't the issue, though. What people demand in terms of care that goes into the breeding process, and are willing to pay for, does. :thmbsup: There are breeders in every country who breed well. Finding them takes time and careful work. Just as finding anything of quality takes time and work and effort and rarely provides instant, cheap gratification (in the case of poorly bred puppies, that low cost up front has a high longterm cost for the breed and presents an increasingly impossible scenario for ever breeding out these serious, formidible health problems that shorten our breed's average life expectancy already by a fourth to a third!).

Buying unhealthtested puppies from people with nice houses means crap breeders continue to pocket money for their exploitation, and poor genes proliferate exponentially into future generations of dogs. Buyers often unknowningly do this once, which is completely understandable as such breeders rely on the fact that novice buyers trust them to be breed responsibly and don;t initially know better, but there's no excuse for willingly supporting the ignorant or deliberately exploitative as they ruin the breed. Go for a rescue dog instead.

PS A lot of those nice houses are built on how lucrative crappy breeding is -- it sure is cheap and there sure are great margins when you don't buy excellent quality for your breeding dogs and don't health test.

Louise1823
28th June 2008, 01:48 PM
I completely agree with Cathy and Karlin. Almost 2 years ago, we bought a black and tan pup from a breeder that we foolishly thought was reputable. We had the option to buy papers with him, but decided against it as we are only interested in having him as a pet and companion for us and our other Cavalier.
We stupidly assumed that as the breeder was kennel club registered that they were ok. I am ashamed to admit that at the time I knew very little of the particular health concerns of Cavaliers and had no idea of what I should be asking the breeder about. Health issues were never brought up in the topic of conversation when we were taking him home with us, and once our vet gave him the all clear we were happy. The breeders premises was absolutely fabulous, and the dogs appeared to be kept clean and in very good living quarters. All of these things convinced me at the time that we were not dealing with a puppy farm or a 'bad' breeder.
Unfortunatley one morning in March after his walk, our gorgeous little Jack passed away very suddenly with heart failure at only 20 months old. Our vet confirmed that he had a genetic defect with his heart and advised that we call the breeder to let them know what had happened. I was too upset at the time to speak, so my husband spoke with the breeder. The response we got was very cold and to be frank - they seemed uninterested and not in the slightest bit concerened at our loss.
We have had to learn about the dangers of bad breeding in the most horrendous way possible. I feel so guilty at having not being more cautious about who we were buying from at the time. In saying that, I would not swap having had Jack for those 20 months - as he was the most adorable and loving dog I have ever known.

I can only urge you to to be so careful about who you buy from and what level of health testing and breeding standards they follow. This breed is plagued with serious health issues, and if you knowingly purchase from these greedy BYB's then you are in every way contributing their wealth and to the ongoing suffering that these beautiful dogs have to endure.

chloe92us
28th June 2008, 01:52 PM
This point can be debated all day long; and I absolutely agree that the breed is in trouble. However, I don't agree that the breed is in trouble b/c of BYB. This breed is in trouble because it was recreated from a limited gene pool in the first place.

If everyone could only bought from reputable breeders that do the recommended MVD protocol and all other recommended health testing, there would be very few Cavalier owners. That would be a shame IMHO.

I have yet to meet or read about a breeder that actually waits 5 years before mating and actually follows ALL the health protocols. I'm sure they are actually out there, but only a handful. Until there are enough reputable breeders to supply the demand, then people will always buy them from other sources. That is just the REALITY. You can't place the blame on people or breeders. It's a matter of supply and demand.

Every other breed of dog in the world has their own set of health problems. Some breeds more than others. It doesn't change the fact that people still love that breed and want to have one for their pets. In life, there are always levels of quality; clothes, cars, pets, foods. We may all want to drive a Bentley, but 1) where do you buy one? 2) Can I afford one? Most people can't find one to buy, and couldn't afford to buy one if they could. If we use this example, what you're saying in essence, is if you can't drive a Bentley, then you shouldn't drive a car. That idea comes off as very elitist.

I think if we took a poll on this site to see where everyone bought their Cavalier, there would only be a handful that got their pups from reputable breeders. Of that handful, maybe a few bought them from a breeder that does all the necessary health testing.

hbmama
28th June 2008, 02:23 PM
Well, I will start the poll and state that I got my puppy from a very well known and reputable breeder that closely follows health testing protocol on her dogs and generations back. She follows and tests the dam, sire and grandparents and does not breed unless they are cardiologist heart clear. Eyes, hips and patellas are also xray'ed and she spends the money to do all of this, as well as health register her dogs.

I do have a friend who lost her Cavalier (bought from a byb through the newspaper) at the age of 3 1/2, from mvd. That dog had also been through two patella operations and suffered from dry eye.

There is no guarantee that these dogs, even the well bred ones, won't ever suffer any ailments, but the odds are much better that those who are carefully bred will live longer, healthier lives.

Years ago, ignorance was commonplace, and byb were pretty much how most people got their pets. But today, with the education and information available, there is simply no excuse for irresponsible breeding. Reputable breeders DO NOT make money. It is a labor of love, as the costs to obtain healthy dogs that fit the protocol, then test, re test, pay registry fees, grooming, vet bills, show and travel fees, etc, they are very lucky to just make ends meet. The small byb is usually looking for a free pup to keep, and cash flow on the side.

Louise1823
28th June 2008, 02:35 PM
Im sorry but I don't agree with your Bentley statement, and think it quite ridiculous that you could make this comparison between buying a car and buying a dog.
Maybe this is the problem though - maybe some people see their pets as commodities and a 'nice thing' to have. I am by no means insinuating that this is the case with you or anyone on this board, as I believe we all truly love and care about the welfare of this breed - otherwise we would not be having this debate. People see cute Cavaliers, and want them and will go to the first person who has them advertised in the local free ads papers without any questions asked.

We have no control over what happened with the gene pool of Cavaliers when they were first introduced to society - but we do have control over where and who we are buying from now.
Having learned from our terrible mistake - I would gladly pay the extra few hundred to a breeder that I know is responsible and that actually cares for the health and well being of these animals.
These irresponsible and careless breeders are literally getting away with murder and getting rich into the bargain - its a disgrace and they are totally to blame in my opinion.

Cathy T
28th June 2008, 04:14 PM
I absolutely believe that most BYB do it b/c they like the breed and want to make some money on the side. These are probably the same people who bought their studs or bitches from a pet store, so no they do not realize they are harming the breed. They just don't have a clue!



You are 100% right.....they do it for the money, which is why, as pet buyers, we need to NOT support them. They don't have a clue but we do, we know better.



If everyone could only bought from reputable breeders that do the recommended MVD protocol and all other recommended health testing, there would be very few Cavalier owners. That would be a shame IMHO.


So it would be better if we had a whole bunch of Cavaliers that were going to die an early death from heart defect or worse??!!!



We may all want to drive a Bentley, but 1) where do you buy one? 2) Can I afford one? Most people can't find one to buy, and couldn't afford to buy one if they could. If we use this example, what you're saying in essence, is if you can't drive a Bentley, then you shouldn't drive a car.


No....it just means you buy a Chevrolet instead of a Bentley. Doesn't mean you can't have a car. If you can't afford the up front cost of a Cavalier chances are you are not going to be able to afford to care for the low cost dog you bought when it developes mvd or sm. You pay up front (and better your odds) or you pay in the end (and endure a lot of heartache).

chloe92us
28th June 2008, 06:37 PM
louise, If you're insinuating that I see my pets as commodities and not as members of my family, then you are very wrong. I wish you would remove that statement, it really was unfair if it was aimed at me. If you've read any of my posts, you would know this is not the case.

My point is only that the number of reputable breeders is so few, that most of us really don't have a choice. And, Cathy, yes if one of my dogs became ill, I would rather have my sick Cavalier than none at all.

I didn't mean to stir up this crazy pot, but I'm just speaking my mind.

chloe92us
28th June 2008, 06:40 PM
I also want to add, that I have also had Chevrolet's and they have just as many problems as my Bentley wanna-be's. :(

Nancy
28th June 2008, 07:19 PM
I am a very small breeder , and also our Club rescue contact for the state. I view every dog I have had as a learning experience. The one time I bought a BYB Lhasa, she needed back and knee surgery. My Humane society dog also needed knee surgery. My Cavaliers have not. I have well bred dogs , doesn't mean they don't have the occasional ache , pain, tummy problems, or heaven forbid, something major may be in their future, but if I bought a dog from a crappy breeder to save $1,000 I had better be prepared for something big .

People don't NEED Cavaliers. If they want a dog, then they should buy one from someone who cares about their future health , who cares about whether they look and move like they should, or they should go to the shelter and adopt a dog in need. Cavaliers are not the only lovely breed around, there are many options to provide a loving companion.

People should look very closely at the ethics and values of some of these rescues. Seems like if anyone calls a dog a rescue, then it must be ok. In my opinion , it is not ok to buy puppies at auction and "adopt" them out at a price that more than covers your cost. People who get cavaliers this way are just providing another revenue stream to puppymillers. The only puppymill rescues that are legit in my mind are either being given the puppies, or pay a nominal fee just to get them out of the miller's hands, but not line their pockets. I know I got off topic a little here, but I'm seeing this mentality more and more, and many people who buy BYB dogs are very sorry, even though they knew better at the time.

tara
28th June 2008, 07:33 PM
I've been reading this with interest and wasn't going to chime in, but a few things have been said that I think are potentially dangerous for any "lurkers" reading this forum who are thinking about adding a cavalier to their home. I was one of those lurkers and learned a great deal by reading the information in the facts sections, but probably more from reading the stories and experiences of the cavalier owners on this board.

What Karlin said is probably the single most important thing for potential cavalier owners to understand -- WE, AS CONSUMERS, HOLD A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF POWER IN OUR HANDS. Whether it's cars or dogs, we can dictate what the "market" produces by limiting the demand for unhealthy cavaliers who do not possess the temperment and conformation for which this breed is so desired. It's very simple: if you desire a cavalier who looks like one, acts like one, and inherits the smallest chance possible for devastating health problems, then you must find a breeder who is equally concerned with breeding to produce such dogs.

This is entirely possible if you are patient and arm yourself with knowledge regarding what the recommended breeding protocols are. I live in the midwest, literally in the heart of puppymills and backyard breeders. I encountered several unsavory situations from which I walked away. I found a breeder, grilled her (as she did me) on cavalier issues, then waited almost 7 months for an available puppy. I know there are no guarantees, but my family is now blessed with a cavalier who bears the temperment of a loving pet and who (God willing) will face minimal health problems as her life progresses.

My puppy's breeder shows her dogs. This is her hobby, passion, and the only reason she breeds her girls. Supporting breeders who show their dogs is imperative in buying a puppy. I know my breeder didn't breed for the purpose of selling a puppy to me (or some other consumer). She did so in the hopes of producing that next "best in show" dog. In order to get that top dog she made sure that the puppies' ancestors had passed necessary health checks, were of sound temperment and conformation, and she carefully studied genetics and other elements to find the right breeding combination with a stud dog. I am the lucky recipient of a puppy who won't ever be "best in show," but she still bears fruit of my breeder's labor which hopefully means she has good odds in facing cavalier health problems.

It's just simply time for us to say enough is enough to these mill and byb types. It doesn't matter why the problems in the breed exist; what matters is that they do exist and we must use our knowledge and economic power to eliminate the demand for puppies born as the result of inadequate breeding practices.:thmbsup:

nicoles94
28th June 2008, 08:07 PM
I've been reading this with interest and wasn't going to chime in, but a few things have been said that I think are potentially dangerous for any "lurkers" reading this forum who are thinking about adding a cavalier to their home. I was one of those lurkers and learned a great deal by reading the information in the facts sections, but probably more from reading the stories and experiences of the cavalier owners on this board.

What Karlin said is probably the single most important thing for potential cavalier owners to understand -- WE, AS CONSUMERS, HOLD A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF POWER IN OUR HANDS. Whether it's cars or dogs, we can dictate what the "market" produces by limiting the demand for unhealthy cavaliers who do not possess the temperment and conformation for which this breed is so desired. It's very simple: if you desire a cavalier who looks like one, acts like one, and inherits the smallest chance possible for devastating health problems, then you must find a breeder who is equally concerned with breeding to produce such dogs.

This is entirely possible if you are patient and arm yourself with knowledge regarding what the recommended breeding protocols are. I live in the midwest, literally in the heart of puppymills and backyard breeders. I encountered several unsavory situations from which I walked away. I found a breeder, grilled her (as she did me) on cavalier issues, then waited almost 7 months for an available puppy. I know there are no guarantees, but my family is now blessed with a cavalier who bears the temperment of a loving pet and who (God willing) will face minimal health problems as her life progresses.

My puppy's breeder shows her dogs. This is her hobby, passion, and the only reason she breeds her girls. Supporting breeders who show their dogs is imperative in buying a puppy. I know my breeder didn't breed for the purpose of selling a puppy to me (or some other consumer). She did so in the hopes of producing that next "best in show" dog. In order to get that top dog she made sure that the puppies' ancestors had passed necessary health checks, were of sound temperment and conformation, and she carefully studied genetics and other elements to find the right breeding combination with a stud dog. I am the lucky recipient of a puppy who won't ever be "best in show," but she still bears fruit of my breeder's labor which hopefully means she has good odds in facing cavalier health problems.

It's just simply time for us to say enough is enough to these mill and byb types. It doesn't matter why the problems in the breed exist; what matters is that they do exist and we must use our knowledge and economic power to eliminate the demand for puppies born as the result of inadequate breeding practices.:thmbsup:

I'm with you Tara! I live in the midwest too. It's so frustrating to see all these puppymills continue to go on. I don't think some people truly understand how damaging puppymills and willy nilly breeding can be. Especially in my area, where big, hardy hunting type dogs are bred. I can't even begin to count the numbers of lab and golden retriever puppy ads I see in our local papers on a local basis and then I look on the shelter and rescue websites and they are full of cast off goldens and labs due to health or temperment problems.

We waited a long time for Tybalt too. Over a year. People thought we were crazy to wait so long for a dog when we could've hopped on the internet and gone to any number of pets for sale sites or gone to a pet store. It was only after we explained the risks of attaining a dog this way did we notice people seem to acquiesce to this train of thought. And even then, in some, you could tell they were thinking "Well, it's always been done this way, you're just being too picky. A dog is a dog".

It's that attitude, of a dog being 'just a dog', that really grates my nerves! It is that exact attitude that allows this to go on. And it is that attitude that makes people feel alright with themselves as they give a puppy broker money for their new pet. It's a viscious cycle and sadly, the pups are the victims of this.

Louise1823
28th June 2008, 09:23 PM
louise, If you're insinuating that I see my pets as commodities and not as members of my family, then you are very wrong. I wish you would remove that statement, it really was unfair if it was aimed at me. If you've read any of my posts, you would know this is not the case.

This was absolutley not aimed at you and I am sorry if you have seen it this way. I have re-phrased the original post and hopefully this will make it clearer what I was trying to say.
I am still living through the pain of making a very wrong decision of getting a pup through what I now know was a bad breeder.
I feel very strongly that BYB's and puppy farms should be held accountable for the harm they are bringing to the breed.

I agree that reputable breeders are few and far between, but I personally would rather wait a year or longer if needs be for a healthy puppy - rather than pay money to a BYB (which you can always find in the ads in the local papers) who are only adding to the problems of these dogs.

Nancy
28th June 2008, 10:03 PM
By the way, very few people now have to wait a year for a puppy if they are open to different locations or color or sex. A lot of very good breeders have puppies available lately, the economy has hit everything.

tara
28th June 2008, 11:20 PM
That's a very good point Nancy, one that I forgot to mention in my long post. For purely personal reasons I really wanted a blenheim female puppy, so this made my wait a bit longer:thmbsup:

Maxwell&me
29th June 2008, 02:31 AM
Im not going to post a long post on BYB...you all know my feelings on that...but here is something for the ones that think BYB are good people, and care for the breed.

I purchased Hogan from a well known breeder, who shows and does more study on genetics and health testing than just about anyone I know-she only breeds for herself and I count myself lucky to have two of her dogs, one a retired bitch and one that was her first male puppy..... after I had Hogan- my neutered boy, here in my pet home... for over a year~ could have been longer than that...she found out a leading cardiologist was going to be at a local club show....she asked me to bring him up and have him heart tested just so she could be sure there were no issues, not that she expected there would be...but cared enough to check- double and triple check......that he was good, that she was making right choices, and she still wants to follow up even though he will never be reproducing, she wants to do right by the breed.....Really and true, isn't that someone you want to purchase a cavalier from?

( his heart is fine so far by the way...)

Someone that cares so much about what they are doing that even after they have placed pup and gotten their money.... and are willing to pay for a test just to make sure they have done things in the right way? That speaks volumes to me. I really hope that anyone thinking of getting a cavalier thinks about that for a minute....A breeder is a relationship for the life of your dog, if they are going to be gone tomorrow when you need them, or your dogs health is compromised because lack of testing....Where does that leave you? :rolleyes:

chloe92us
29th June 2008, 02:49 AM
You all have very strong, valuable points. I know you all feel passionately about this subject and I respect your opinions.

When I was searching, I interviewed several breeders from the CKCS clubs breeder referral, and honestly found in ALL of them, something that did not sit right with me. One had one of her dogs debarked! Another spoke of her dogs as "its" or "things". In the end, I had to make a choice; buy a puppy from a reputable breeder I did not feel comfortable with, or from someone who I did feel comfortable with, but was not a reputable breeder. In the end, I chose the latter.

So, I reiterate the point that until such a time as there are enough good, reputable breeders to satisfy the demand, people will continue to go other routes to get a Cavalier. It is sad, but true.

Cathy Moon
29th June 2008, 06:00 AM
When we were looking for our first cavalier, we spoke on the phone to several reputable breeders from our state and nearby states. They all knew each other from showing, etc., and referred us to other reputable breeders in our search for a tricolor female puppy. We found them to be friendly and helpful, and we finally located our puppy in another state after a just a few weeks of phone calls. We've met or seen some of the breeders we spoke to at various dog shows since then, and we've also seen photos of some of them in cavalier books. To be honest, I have no perception that there is or was a shortage of reputable breeders, and still do not believe there is a shortage today. It must really depend on how far one is willing to drive to pick up a puppy! :flwr:

Bruce H
29th June 2008, 12:35 PM
A lot of you know I haven't been on the board much because of other obligations, but I try to keep up on what is going on. But I just have to respond to this thread. It's one of my pet peeves.

Maybe it's the economy, but I have noticed lately that there is a big increase in the number of people shopping for a Cavalier based on price alone. So I don't think there's a shortage of reputable breeders, I think there's a shortage of people who understand the value of buying from a reputable breeder vs. a BYB or mill broker. They see a Cavalier and say "I have to have one"; and who can blame them? They really are a beautiful dog, both inside and out. The problem comes when they find out what the price is. So instead of saving money for the next year or two, they go with what the can afford immediately: the $700 puppy from the newspaper. It's that instant gratification thing as near as I can tell.

I'm sure the BYB's are very nice people for the most part. They just don't care about the future of the breed enough to do even the basics of testing. Or maybe they know so little about the breed, they don't even know they should be testing. In either case, you have someone who, IMHO, is potentially damaging the breed as a whole. Heck they don't even know enough to sell the puppies on a spay/neuter contract (contract? What's that?). So on it goes.

Now if someone buys from a BYB without knowing the difference, I wish you and your puppy the best, hopefully you have a healthy puupy with a long life , and hopefully the next one comes from a reputable breeder. But if you DO know the difference between a reputable breeder and a BYB, and buy from the BYB, then what can I say...

Sorry to get so whipped up, but I see this all the time and get so frustrated with it. Read Karlin's posts on here again. BTW, if someone in this area is looking for a puppy in this area from a good breeder (sorry, we won't have any for several months), just call here and we can give you the names of 4 or 5 that are within a 3 hour drive. Or we can talk to you about our 5 month old rescue boy Jack, who we think came from a BYB.

Charleen
29th June 2008, 12:37 PM
IF you don't purchase from a reputable breeder, your chances of getting a dog with serious health issues is increased tremendously. You are really playing roulette.

My first 2 cavaliers are from a BYB, before I knew any better. I thought everyone bought dogs throught the local classified ads. Well Merry & Pippin have all sorts of hereditary health issues. Cataracts, Luxating Patella and food allergies. After going through these health expenses, I learned the hard way. The BYB did no health tests, just had her vet's assurance that her parent dogs were healthy.

Next I found these cavalier web boards and read up on what I need to know to find a cavalier from a reputable breeder. Jolly & Luke are from such a person. These 2 cavaliers are completely healthy. I have none of the issues I have with Merry and Pippin.

I had to drive 3 hours each way, to get Jolly & Luke, but it was worth it for the health guarantees.

Nancy
29th June 2008, 12:41 PM
You all have very strong, valuable points. I know you all feel passionately about this subject and I respect your opinions.

When I was searching, I interviewed several breeders from the CKCS clubs breeder referral, and honestly found in ALL of them, something that did not sit right with me. One had one of her dogs debarked! Another spoke of her dogs as "its" or "things". In the end, I had to make a choice; buy a puppy from a reputable breeder I did not feel comfortable with, or from someone who I did feel comfortable with, but was not a reputable breeder. In the end, I chose the latter.

So, I reiterate the point that until such a time as there are enough good, reputable breeders to satisfy the demand, people will continue to go other routes to get a Cavalier. It is sad, but true.

So now it appears like you are supporting BYB because of a personality flaw in the 3 breeders you chose to call? Sounds like you are justifying a questionable decision at this point, so please don't blame it on the breeders. I know a lot of loving, personable, good breeders in Florida that you didn't call, because they don't debark or call their dogs "it". I tried to make a point in my previous post, let's learn from our increased knowledge over time. I'm sure you love your dog, and I love all the rescues that come into club rescue, we actually have the privilege of caring for dogs no matter where they came from, but I can't help but feel sad that some were brought into this world with a disadvantage and potential heartbreak for all concerned. In effect, we're cleaning up after them, often getting them the medical care they need . I wonder what your breeder would do if you called her up and said your dog needed patella surgery or had some other hereditary condition? I'm not trying to beat you up , but sending the message you appear to be is dangerous for others. When people call me for a puppy and say they only have so much to spend, I tell them to wait and save up , because a poorly bred cavalier is a bad decision. It is in any breed, but especially in this one.:sl*p:

shan
29th June 2008, 12:48 PM
i wonder is it possible for anyone here in southern ireland to pm me details of reputable breeders here who are doing the necessary heatlth testing thanks shan

Bruce H
29th June 2008, 01:51 PM
One more thing to add and then I'll shut up.

If Nancy's Ace had been born into a BYB home, what do you think the odds are that he would have survived? Probably zero to none. The reputable breeders do what is necessary not only for the breed as a whole, but for the individuals as well. The good breeders don't even think twice about doing EVERYTHING necessary regardless of the time and cost involved.

Sorry to use you as an example again Nancy, hope you don't mind.

Nancy
29th June 2008, 02:12 PM
In case you don't know the Ace story, he started failing 1 day after Nina's csection, he was an only puppy and she didn't have milk. Needless to say, I lost money on that litter but couldn't imagine not doing everything to save him. Here are the posts/pictures on him:

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=23839&page=3

Karlin
29th June 2008, 02:51 PM
I want to reiterate that this board gives absolutely no space for supporting or promoting backyard breeding practice, and anyone who feels this is a problem, and wants to defend the indefensible, simply shouldn't be here. I have explained this ethos many times -- it is the foundation for the creation of this board -- and the reasons for it are clearly stated in the Getting Started section.

This thread is here because I believe the discussion was important for people to understand the difference between responsible and selfish breeding. On the board, there are those who are at the front line in conserving and protecting the breed and also those who have seen their own dogs from poor breeders suffer from ignorant breeding practices. They can make the case far better than I.

There is absolutely NO MORAL DIFFERENCE between someone who breeds in indifference to health and keeps their breeding dogs inside in a nice house, and those who mass breed hundreds of dogs in filthy cages. The end result is the SAME. Individual puppies at far higher risk of longterm health problems, heartbroken families who see their pets suffer, and another blow to overall longterm breed vitality in an already suffering breed. :x

Anyone is welcome to be offended by this ;) but please recall that this board is MY personal space -- that I pay for, maintain (with the generous and unpaid help of our moderators!) and open up to anyone to join. We all do this for the love of the breed, and top of the list of responsibility to the breed we love is responsible, health focused breeding. Unapologetically, I retain the right to make decisions about the kinds of topics I will allow. The board, though publicly available, is like a virtual extension of my own house. Just as I would show anyone passing racist comments under my roof to the door, so will I show the board's virtual door to anyone who feels they need to openly advocate a revolting, exploitative breeding approach to this wonderful breed. QED.

Anyone has every right to detest this board, me, my opinions, and this policy, :lol: but no one has the 'right' to be in my virtual living room and say whatever they want. :thmbsup:

******

Shan, finding a good breeder is an intensive process anywhere in the world. You will need to call and ask individual breeders about their approach, and also ask to see the proper health certs. Do not rely only on recommendations as that too is only a start and what someone else believes to be true about a breeder, may not be true -- ask for the evidence. :thmbsup:

If you want some possibilities of breeders who fully health test in the UK, maybe PM Nicki.

Cathy T
29th June 2008, 03:52 PM
Bruce and Karlin - Bravo!!

tara
29th June 2008, 04:30 PM
Karlin -- thank you for doing what you do here. It's obvious that you do this because you care deeply for this breed. I learned so much here. I stumbled across this site in my search for information on cavaliers and it truly saved me and my family from getting a puppy from some very undesirable (yet well disguised) situations. While talking to breeders, I received so much support and help from experts on this forum. Please know that this board and the people on it have made a huge positive impact in my family's life.

Nancy and Bruce -- thank you for being examples of reputable breeders. I appreciate your willingness to stick your necks out in defense of good breeding. Nancy, you know that without you I would not be sitting here typing with a cavalier sleeping on my lap. And Bruce, what you said about my husband falling in love is true -- I found them reading SI last night and offered to take Holly off his hands. He wouldn't let me and insisted on doing puppy duty the rest of the night;)

chloe92us
29th June 2008, 11:51 PM
If I were ever looking to buy a 8-10 week old puppy, then I would seek out a reputable breeder. However, I am not a puppy person and did not want a puppy. I was looking for a young adult/ teenager so the breeders that had one available were limited and I stated this in my very first post. I am tired of being slammed for this.

Karlin
30th June 2008, 01:10 AM
The issue as raised by you and to which I and many others replied was not the individual purchase, but the general one of trying to defend a way of breeding that is never right. If you also used a personal example to defend your stance, then that example is bound to come under scrutiny. It is disingenuous to then complain you are being slammed.

Since you raised the point, the quality of the puppy does not improve simply because it is sold at an older age. And paying a backyard breeder for a dog, of any age, is still paying a backyard breeder and supporting that repulsive approach to breeding. Many people make the mistake once and learn more about why this is so wrong, and it also isn't a criticism of anyone's dog -- many of us own dogs from questionable backgrounds, me included. But defending that way of breeding and selling dogs is entirely a different matter.

Older dogs do regularly come up from reputable breeders as they rehome dogs they ran on but decide not to breed or show, or retire former breeding or show dogs. These dogs typically also cost quite a bit less. Lucy is one such dog, as is Leo.

Why it is important to really know what you are doing (http://www.wagntrain.com/breeding_your_dog.htm) when you breed.

frecklesmom
30th June 2008, 03:21 AM
No one would ever say that you cannot get a pretty puppy from a BYB or even a puppymiller and if it were just about the outside of a Cavalier that was important there would not be any discussion. Breeding for the best of the breed involves science and research. Understanding of dominant and recessive genes and knowledge of history of lines are part of the influence on choosing breeding pairs and a BYB is hardly in a position to be a part of that process. The statement of first you search for a breeder is hardly said lightly when you consider the knowledge that goes into reputable breeding. It is hard to have the mindset to acquire a puppy or young adult and then have to wait for availability but unless one is willing to settle for questionable health now, or in the future,one has to wait.