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black and tan cavalier

shan

Well-known member
while out looking at a litter recently i came across and female black and tan i year old for sale the breeder said she was for sale as he was getting out of black and tans 250 euros for her with papers he also had several littters of pups for sale without papers he said most would be going to uk i did not buy a puppy but since have been thinking of the one yearl old and worrying where she will end up as she is not neutered i have been thinking of buying her what do you all think my husband thinks giving him money with only encourage him to continue what do you alll think has anybody else here bought a cavalier to save her from a possible worst fate:confused:
 
Moving this from the rescue section as it is only for rescue dogs, not for dogs that might be purchased. I will move this to the general section as basically, you are asking about whether to buy a dog. (y)

Lots of breeders rehome breeding dogs -- often they simply go to pet homes. If you want another dog, and like this one, then buy her. If you don't want another dog, then it really does not rescue the dog to buy her from a puppy farmer in this way. I will buy dogs if they are in a very bad way or are very cheap or are at risk but this is not a dog known to be at any risk, so a purchase is really a private decision for you. Sadly many people rehome intact dogs without giving a thought to whether they will be bred from; this includes the majority of rehomings every day of pet dogs in the UK and Ireland from what I come across online and in papers. :(

However, I would not go near a breeder selling puppies in this way -- he is definitely a puppy farmer; the fact that he sends all his puppies to the UK underlines this. Only ever buy from reputable show breeders who have the cardiac certs and other tests they can SHOW you. Papers mean absolutely *zilch*! There's good advice on finding a puppy and screening breeders in the Library section or on www.ckcsrescue.com. :)
 
This is exactly how i got my b&t male. There was a BYB that had a litter of B&T's and found out the hard way that they do not sell. At the time, I was looking for a young adult to adopt but kept running into dead ends. So, I called the lady. I went and looked at the 5 MO pups and brought him home. Their house was lovely and she kept them well, so I felt pretty good about it. Luckily, she was being very selective about who she placed them with- which is a good thing b/c she was practically giving them away. I'm sure she expected to have a tri litter and make some money, but that didn't happen and she has since spayed her bitch. (y)
 
If there are no health certs for the breeding stock, and the parents and grandparents haven't been cardiologist tested, and the parents are (typically) under 5 and therefore well outside the MVD protocol, it doesn't matter how nice a house is kept or how nice the breeders seems to be -- they are knowingly and willingly damaging the breed and selling on puppies at far higher risk of longterm health problems. Also BYBs often actually keep the dogs in poor conditions and bring them inside for 'viewings' to make them look like decent breeder. :( On no level, are they OK breeders.
 
I'm sorry, I have to disagree that ALL BYB are knowingly and willingly harming the breed. YOU may think they are, but I don't think they do. I absolutely believe that most BYB do it b/c they like the breed and want to make some money on the side. These are probably the same people who bought their studs or bitches from a pet store, so no they do not realize they are harming the breed. They just don't have a clue!

Also, I'm not saying that because the lady's house was nice she must have been an okay breeder. I just meant that her house was nice and she was nice, and her dogs were clean and I could tell they were house pets as there were baby gates up all over the place and they were an older couple so did not have children. I don't think it was a show. She was one of the BYB I'm talking about above. A woman who likes Cavaliers, decided to breed one of hers (she has two), and it didn't turn out the way she thought it would and probably will not do it again. That is what I think of when I think of a BYB.
 
I'd say that a BYB is harming the breed (whether knowingly or unknowingly) and leave it at that.

If they're not doing the proper health testing and breeding protocols, then they are harming the breed. And if they're not breeding for show, they probably are not breeding structurally sound dogs that meet the breed standard, plain and simple.

Anyone who is breeding cavaliers for the sole purpose of augmenting their income is harming the breed.

If they have no consciousness about what they are doing, it doesn't make what they are doing right. We had a 2 year old BYB rescue dog who was PTS because of severe health problems. The BYB never cared to know what happened to him.
 
heart testing

as far as i am aware at the moment the ckcs club of southern ireland does not require there members to heart test there breeding stock the only requirement for registering any litter with them is two years membership leaving people in southern ireland with very little chance of aquiring a puppy from a healthy background it is no wonder people end up buying puppies from back yard breeders it is aprox 650 euro for a club members puppy with no heatlh testing currently required of them and therefore no real incentive to pay the extra money required on what basis can the extra cost be justified with many of the members not even showing their dogs they are able to charge the extra money because they are members of the club for two years
 
I'm sorry, I have to disagree that ALL BYB are knowingly and willingly harming the breed. YOU may think they are, but I don't think they do. I absolutely believe that most BYB do it b/c they like the breed and want to make some money on the side. These are probably the same people who bought their studs or bitches from a pet store, so no they do not realize they are harming the breed. They just don't have a clue!

Also, I'm not saying that because the lady's house was nice she must have been an okay breeder. I just meant that her house was nice and she was nice, and her dogs were clean and I could tell they were house pets as there were baby gates up all over the place and they were an older couple so did not have children. I don't think it was a show. She was one of the BYB I'm talking about above. A woman who likes Cavaliers, decided to breed one of hers (she has two), and it didn't turn out the way she thought it would and probably will not do it again. That is what I think of when I think of a BYB.

Don't worry Chloe. I understand where you are coming from and feel the same way.
 
Anyone who has spent 5 minutes researching the breed knows about the hideous problem of MVD in the breed. Anyone therefore who chooses NOT to cardiologist certify their dogs and follow the MVD protocol has chosen to harm the breed. It is that simple. If YOU know about MVD, how can a *breeder* not know? How can they look at the pupies they produce and know they are risking placing a terribly sad burden on a family that may lose that dog at 5 or 6 due to their deliberate choices?

The breed is in serious trouble of survival already due to MVD. Breeders of any kind who ignore what they KNOW is right to do are destroying the breed. Or are so ignorant that they either have willfully chosen not to do, or to ignore, the most basic common sense about breeding and neglected to do the most basic and minimal research on the breed they've chosen.

It is impossible for anyone who buys a SINGLE book on cavaliers, visits a SINGLE club website, reads a board, basically just googles the breed, not to learn within minutes about the problem of MVD.

If pet owners were more careful in what they expect from a breeder, and less focused on getting a cheaper puppy or a puppy this week because they don;t want to wait, the breed would be in far better condition. Pet owners have enormous power, as what they ask for and expect and *demand* will shape the puppy market. I cannot stress this enough -- the problem is NOT simply poor breeders, folks, it is also US -- it is pet owners who just do not care if they can get their dog cheaper or more easily then supporting the breeders who DO health test and do breed so that you end up with a cavalier that actually looks like the breed should look. If you buy from these people, YOU are supporting the sad exploitative cycle that has already demolished the gene pool to dangerous levels. Every single cavalier owner or prospective owner has the ability to make a major and powerful contribution to the breed and its future simply by buying puppies ONLY from reputable breeders who health test properly (not just vet heart checks!).

There is only one breed club to my knowledge in the world that REQUIRES heart testing and that is Sweden's. What a club requires isn't the issue, though. What people demand in terms of care that goes into the breeding process, and are willing to pay for, does. (y) There are breeders in every country who breed well. Finding them takes time and careful work. Just as finding anything of quality takes time and work and effort and rarely provides instant, cheap gratification (in the case of poorly bred puppies, that low cost up front has a high longterm cost for the breed and presents an increasingly impossible scenario for ever breeding out these serious, formidible health problems that shorten our breed's average life expectancy already by a fourth to a third!).

Buying unhealthtested puppies from people with nice houses means crap breeders continue to pocket money for their exploitation, and poor genes proliferate exponentially into future generations of dogs. Buyers often unknowningly do this once, which is completely understandable as such breeders rely on the fact that novice buyers trust them to be breed responsibly and don;t initially know better, but there's no excuse for willingly supporting the ignorant or deliberately exploitative as they ruin the breed. Go for a rescue dog instead.

PS A lot of those nice houses are built on how lucrative crappy breeding is -- it sure is cheap and there sure are great margins when you don't buy excellent quality for your breeding dogs and don't health test.
 
I completely agree with Cathy and Karlin. Almost 2 years ago, we bought a black and tan pup from a breeder that we foolishly thought was reputable. We had the option to buy papers with him, but decided against it as we are only interested in having him as a pet and companion for us and our other Cavalier.
We stupidly assumed that as the breeder was kennel club registered that they were ok. I am ashamed to admit that at the time I knew very little of the particular health concerns of Cavaliers and had no idea of what I should be asking the breeder about. Health issues were never brought up in the topic of conversation when we were taking him home with us, and once our vet gave him the all clear we were happy. The breeders premises was absolutely fabulous, and the dogs appeared to be kept clean and in very good living quarters. All of these things convinced me at the time that we were not dealing with a puppy farm or a 'bad' breeder.
Unfortunatley one morning in March after his walk, our gorgeous little Jack passed away very suddenly with heart failure at only 20 months old. Our vet confirmed that he had a genetic defect with his heart and advised that we call the breeder to let them know what had happened. I was too upset at the time to speak, so my husband spoke with the breeder. The response we got was very cold and to be frank - they seemed uninterested and not in the slightest bit concerened at our loss.
We have had to learn about the dangers of bad breeding in the most horrendous way possible. I feel so guilty at having not being more cautious about who we were buying from at the time. In saying that, I would not swap having had Jack for those 20 months - as he was the most adorable and loving dog I have ever known.

I can only urge you to to be so careful about who you buy from and what level of health testing and breeding standards they follow. This breed is plagued with serious health issues, and if you knowingly purchase from these greedy BYB's then you are in every way contributing their wealth and to the ongoing suffering that these beautiful dogs have to endure.
 
This point can be debated all day long; and I absolutely agree that the breed is in trouble. However, I don't agree that the breed is in trouble b/c of BYB. This breed is in trouble because it was recreated from a limited gene pool in the first place.

If everyone could only bought from reputable breeders that do the recommended MVD protocol and all other recommended health testing, there would be very few Cavalier owners. That would be a shame IMHO.

I have yet to meet or read about a breeder that actually waits 5 years before mating and actually follows ALL the health protocols. I'm sure they are actually out there, but only a handful. Until there are enough reputable breeders to supply the demand, then people will always buy them from other sources. That is just the REALITY. You can't place the blame on people or breeders. It's a matter of supply and demand.

Every other breed of dog in the world has their own set of health problems. Some breeds more than others. It doesn't change the fact that people still love that breed and want to have one for their pets. In life, there are always levels of quality; clothes, cars, pets, foods. We may all want to drive a Bentley, but 1) where do you buy one? 2) Can I afford one? Most people can't find one to buy, and couldn't afford to buy one if they could. If we use this example, what you're saying in essence, is if you can't drive a Bentley, then you shouldn't drive a car. That idea comes off as very elitist.

I think if we took a poll on this site to see where everyone bought their Cavalier, there would only be a handful that got their pups from reputable breeders. Of that handful, maybe a few bought them from a breeder that does all the necessary health testing.
 
Well, I will start the poll and state that I got my puppy from a very well known and reputable breeder that closely follows health testing protocol on her dogs and generations back. She follows and tests the dam, sire and grandparents and does not breed unless they are cardiologist heart clear. Eyes, hips and patellas are also xray'ed and she spends the money to do all of this, as well as health register her dogs.

I do have a friend who lost her Cavalier (bought from a byb through the newspaper) at the age of 3 1/2, from mvd. That dog had also been through two patella operations and suffered from dry eye.

There is no guarantee that these dogs, even the well bred ones, won't ever suffer any ailments, but the odds are much better that those who are carefully bred will live longer, healthier lives.

Years ago, ignorance was commonplace, and byb were pretty much how most people got their pets. But today, with the education and information available, there is simply no excuse for irresponsible breeding. Reputable breeders DO NOT make money. It is a labor of love, as the costs to obtain healthy dogs that fit the protocol, then test, re test, pay registry fees, grooming, vet bills, show and travel fees, etc, they are very lucky to just make ends meet. The small byb is usually looking for a free pup to keep, and cash flow on the side.
 
Im sorry but I don't agree with your Bentley statement, and think it quite ridiculous that you could make this comparison between buying a car and buying a dog.
Maybe this is the problem though - maybe some people see their pets as commodities and a 'nice thing' to have. I am by no means insinuating that this is the case with you or anyone on this board, as I believe we all truly love and care about the welfare of this breed - otherwise we would not be having this debate. People see cute Cavaliers, and want them and will go to the first person who has them advertised in the local free ads papers without any questions asked.

We have no control over what happened with the gene pool of Cavaliers when they were first introduced to society - but we do have control over where and who we are buying from now.
Having learned from our terrible mistake - I would gladly pay the extra few hundred to a breeder that I know is responsible and that actually cares for the health and well being of these animals.
These irresponsible and careless breeders are literally getting away with murder and getting rich into the bargain - its a disgrace and they are totally to blame in my opinion.
 
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I absolutely believe that most BYB do it b/c they like the breed and want to make some money on the side. These are probably the same people who bought their studs or bitches from a pet store, so no they do not realize they are harming the breed. They just don't have a clue!

You are 100% right.....they do it for the money, which is why, as pet buyers, we need to NOT support them. They don't have a clue but we do, we know better.

If everyone could only bought from reputable breeders that do the recommended MVD protocol and all other recommended health testing, there would be very few Cavalier owners. That would be a shame IMHO.

So it would be better if we had a whole bunch of Cavaliers that were going to die an early death from heart defect or worse??!!!

We may all want to drive a Bentley, but 1) where do you buy one? 2) Can I afford one? Most people can't find one to buy, and couldn't afford to buy one if they could. If we use this example, what you're saying in essence, is if you can't drive a Bentley, then you shouldn't drive a car.

No....it just means you buy a Chevrolet instead of a Bentley. Doesn't mean you can't have a car. If you can't afford the up front cost of a Cavalier chances are you are not going to be able to afford to care for the low cost dog you bought when it developes mvd or sm. You pay up front (and better your odds) or you pay in the end (and endure a lot of heartache).
 
louise, If you're insinuating that I see my pets as commodities and not as members of my family, then you are very wrong. I wish you would remove that statement, it really was unfair if it was aimed at me. If you've read any of my posts, you would know this is not the case.

My point is only that the number of reputable breeders is so few, that most of us really don't have a choice. And, Cathy, yes if one of my dogs became ill, I would rather have my sick Cavalier than none at all.

I didn't mean to stir up this crazy pot, but I'm just speaking my mind.
 
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I also want to add, that I have also had Chevrolet's and they have just as many problems as my Bentley wanna-be's. :(
 
I am a very small breeder , and also our Club rescue contact for the state. I view every dog I have had as a learning experience. The one time I bought a BYB Lhasa, she needed back and knee surgery. My Humane society dog also needed knee surgery. My Cavaliers have not. I have well bred dogs , doesn't mean they don't have the occasional ache , pain, tummy problems, or heaven forbid, something major may be in their future, but if I bought a dog from a crappy breeder to save $1,000 I had better be prepared for something big .

People don't NEED Cavaliers. If they want a dog, then they should buy one from someone who cares about their future health , who cares about whether they look and move like they should, or they should go to the shelter and adopt a dog in need. Cavaliers are not the only lovely breed around, there are many options to provide a loving companion.

People should look very closely at the ethics and values of some of these rescues. Seems like if anyone calls a dog a rescue, then it must be ok. In my opinion , it is not ok to buy puppies at auction and "adopt" them out at a price that more than covers your cost. People who get cavaliers this way are just providing another revenue stream to puppymillers. The only puppymill rescues that are legit in my mind are either being given the puppies, or pay a nominal fee just to get them out of the miller's hands, but not line their pockets. I know I got off topic a little here, but I'm seeing this mentality more and more, and many people who buy BYB dogs are very sorry, even though they knew better at the time.
 
I've been reading this with interest and wasn't going to chime in, but a few things have been said that I think are potentially dangerous for any "lurkers" reading this forum who are thinking about adding a cavalier to their home. I was one of those lurkers and learned a great deal by reading the information in the facts sections, but probably more from reading the stories and experiences of the cavalier owners on this board.

What Karlin said is probably the single most important thing for potential cavalier owners to understand -- WE, AS CONSUMERS, HOLD A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF POWER IN OUR HANDS. Whether it's cars or dogs, we can dictate what the "market" produces by limiting the demand for unhealthy cavaliers who do not possess the temperment and conformation for which this breed is so desired. It's very simple: if you desire a cavalier who looks like one, acts like one, and inherits the smallest chance possible for devastating health problems, then you must find a breeder who is equally concerned with breeding to produce such dogs.

This is entirely possible if you are patient and arm yourself with knowledge regarding what the recommended breeding protocols are. I live in the midwest, literally in the heart of puppymills and backyard breeders. I encountered several unsavory situations from which I walked away. I found a breeder, grilled her (as she did me) on cavalier issues, then waited almost 7 months for an available puppy. I know there are no guarantees, but my family is now blessed with a cavalier who bears the temperment of a loving pet and who (God willing) will face minimal health problems as her life progresses.

My puppy's breeder shows her dogs. This is her hobby, passion, and the only reason she breeds her girls. Supporting breeders who show their dogs is imperative in buying a puppy. I know my breeder didn't breed for the purpose of selling a puppy to me (or some other consumer). She did so in the hopes of producing that next "best in show" dog. In order to get that top dog she made sure that the puppies' ancestors had passed necessary health checks, were of sound temperment and conformation, and she carefully studied genetics and other elements to find the right breeding combination with a stud dog. I am the lucky recipient of a puppy who won't ever be "best in show," but she still bears fruit of my breeder's labor which hopefully means she has good odds in facing cavalier health problems.

It's just simply time for us to say enough is enough to these mill and byb types. It doesn't matter why the problems in the breed exist; what matters is that they do exist and we must use our knowledge and economic power to eliminate the demand for puppies born as the result of inadequate breeding practices.(y)
 
I've been reading this with interest and wasn't going to chime in, but a few things have been said that I think are potentially dangerous for any "lurkers" reading this forum who are thinking about adding a cavalier to their home. I was one of those lurkers and learned a great deal by reading the information in the facts sections, but probably more from reading the stories and experiences of the cavalier owners on this board.

What Karlin said is probably the single most important thing for potential cavalier owners to understand -- WE, AS CONSUMERS, HOLD A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF POWER IN OUR HANDS. Whether it's cars or dogs, we can dictate what the "market" produces by limiting the demand for unhealthy cavaliers who do not possess the temperment and conformation for which this breed is so desired. It's very simple: if you desire a cavalier who looks like one, acts like one, and inherits the smallest chance possible for devastating health problems, then you must find a breeder who is equally concerned with breeding to produce such dogs.

This is entirely possible if you are patient and arm yourself with knowledge regarding what the recommended breeding protocols are. I live in the midwest, literally in the heart of puppymills and backyard breeders. I encountered several unsavory situations from which I walked away. I found a breeder, grilled her (as she did me) on cavalier issues, then waited almost 7 months for an available puppy. I know there are no guarantees, but my family is now blessed with a cavalier who bears the temperment of a loving pet and who (God willing) will face minimal health problems as her life progresses.

My puppy's breeder shows her dogs. This is her hobby, passion, and the only reason she breeds her girls. Supporting breeders who show their dogs is imperative in buying a puppy. I know my breeder didn't breed for the purpose of selling a puppy to me (or some other consumer). She did so in the hopes of producing that next "best in show" dog. In order to get that top dog she made sure that the puppies' ancestors had passed necessary health checks, were of sound temperment and conformation, and she carefully studied genetics and other elements to find the right breeding combination with a stud dog. I am the lucky recipient of a puppy who won't ever be "best in show," but she still bears fruit of my breeder's labor which hopefully means she has good odds in facing cavalier health problems.

It's just simply time for us to say enough is enough to these mill and byb types. It doesn't matter why the problems in the breed exist; what matters is that they do exist and we must use our knowledge and economic power to eliminate the demand for puppies born as the result of inadequate breeding practices.(y)

I'm with you Tara! I live in the midwest too. It's so frustrating to see all these puppymills continue to go on. I don't think some people truly understand how damaging puppymills and willy nilly breeding can be. Especially in my area, where big, hardy hunting type dogs are bred. I can't even begin to count the numbers of lab and golden retriever puppy ads I see in our local papers on a local basis and then I look on the shelter and rescue websites and they are full of cast off goldens and labs due to health or temperment problems.

We waited a long time for Tybalt too. Over a year. People thought we were crazy to wait so long for a dog when we could've hopped on the internet and gone to any number of pets for sale sites or gone to a pet store. It was only after we explained the risks of attaining a dog this way did we notice people seem to acquiesce to this train of thought. And even then, in some, you could tell they were thinking "Well, it's always been done this way, you're just being too picky. A dog is a dog".

It's that attitude, of a dog being 'just a dog', that really grates my nerves! It is that exact attitude that allows this to go on. And it is that attitude that makes people feel alright with themselves as they give a puppy broker money for their new pet. It's a viscious cycle and sadly, the pups are the victims of this.
 
louise, If you're insinuating that I see my pets as commodities and not as members of my family, then you are very wrong. I wish you would remove that statement, it really was unfair if it was aimed at me. If you've read any of my posts, you would know this is not the case.
This was absolutley not aimed at you and I am sorry if you have seen it this way. I have re-phrased the original post and hopefully this will make it clearer what I was trying to say.
I am still living through the pain of making a very wrong decision of getting a pup through what I now know was a bad breeder.
I feel very strongly that BYB's and puppy farms should be held accountable for the harm they are bringing to the breed.

I agree that reputable breeders are few and far between, but I personally would rather wait a year or longer if needs be for a healthy puppy - rather than pay money to a BYB (which you can always find in the ads in the local papers) who are only adding to the problems of these dogs.
 
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