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redhare
14th July 2008, 12:47 AM
I have to process this with fellow Cavalier lovers.......

So we heard from our breeder that our pup has a spiral fracture in one of his back legs (the larger bottom bone). They were transferring the pups to the car and heard him yelp inside the house, and he was limping & got taken immediately to vet. They have no idea how it happened, just that he must have gotten stuck and pulled and twisted to free himself.

We are freaking out a bit here! We have option of taking him later, when
healed, or taking a different pup. I have to say I've gotten myself pretty attached to this little guy (my heart fell when I got her e-mail). We'll have to wait and see what the vet says in a couple of weeks........ Our breeder doesn't think there will be any long-term damage (break doesn't appear to affect growth-plate), which helps, but we're still pretty worried....

Support needed!

Thanks, Christine

nicoles94
14th July 2008, 01:32 AM
Oh no!!! Poor little guy.

It sounds like everything will be ok, that's great news. If I were you in this same situation, I would probably go ahead and keep the little guy. Young bones are awesome at healing.:thmbsup: I'm sure in a few months time, if not sooner, if you had never known the puppy broke his leg you would've never guessed it by his running about and jumping around!

You can and probably should consult your personal vet before you make a final decision on whether to keep the little guy.

I'm sending good healing vibes for the pup and a hug to you.

:hug:

.

nicola
14th July 2008, 02:37 AM
hmmmm...I would probably be tempted to take a different pup. I guess it depends on how attached you are to him though.

Cathy T
14th July 2008, 03:46 AM
So sorry this happened. I can say, standing back and not being emotionally involved that I'd take a different pup.....but know that you don't have that luxury. I honestly don't know what advice to give you.

Karlin
14th July 2008, 12:08 PM
OK, a couple of things here, and excuse my skepticism, but I think you need to seriously question what has happened here.

Accidents can happen but... I would find it very, very difficult to understand how a reputable, care-focused breeder could possibly have had a pup left alone in the house in such a situation that it could have broken a leg with this severe type of break. What could a pup possibly have gotten caught in that it would have twisted and snapped a bone in its leg? Where were the pups being kept while they were being moved? Weren't they safely in crates; or penned; or were they running free inside, which to me, doesn't sound like someone who is very experienced at breeding and managing puppies?

Anyone who has had puppies here would know that they are pretty robust.

That's why I'd be really dubious about this story and be wondering about the breeder, especially if they are not a reputable club affiliated show breeder. I would just feel there's some other story behind this break and it probably involves a poor duty of care. This type of fracture is generally due to severe force... The pups I know of that have had leg fractures have had them because them jumped from a height or fell or something fell on them. How could a breeder first not have them in a safe place to start with, especially when they are not being directly watched (that's like leaving toddlers running free in the house while you put some other kids in the car; you simply would not risk it!!); and second, how could this happen and the breeder not know what happened? :confused: And what does she mean by 'it hasn't affected the growth plates?' A break is a break. If it is pinned properly it will heal but may require a permanent plate to bind the bone shaft together.

Even with the very best of breeders, I would not take a puppy that had a leg fracture unless I was prepared for future problems; I'd want to confer with the vet; I'd expect a very low price (if any at all) for the pup because I'd now consider this a special needs dog with potential for future problems.

Unless this is an exceptional breeder, I'd be looking for another breeder and another puppy. Her explanation sounds suspiciously fuzzy to me and I'm a bit taken aback that she would still be considering homing the puppy as if it were a normal situation, even assuming it heals well (and it will be several MONTHS before they would know this! How can she possibly think it is a matter of a couple of weeks?).

BTW this is a vet's response to someone whose puppy had a similar break:


A spiral fracture suggests a strong force was applied to the leg. A dog cannot apply this much force to themselves, the nail would rip out before the leg broke. In children this type of fracture is considered classic for child abuse.

Depending on the severity of the fracture, a bone plate might indeed be necessary. A simple mid shaft fracture might be splinted or casted, but there is not a lot of support from the fibula bone to stabilize the area. Often the fibular is fractured as well, but usually repairing the tibia is sufficient stabilization for the fibula to heal.

At the very least, a consultation with the surgeon would help determine if a bone plate was necessary or another procedure might work. Also, with recurring bandage or cast changes, the total cost of a fracture repair might be the same, regardless of plate or cast.


Elsewhere, vets note that such a fracture may indicate underlying weakness in the bone to start with, eg indicating there's some problem already that caused the fracture. Either way if I were a breeder I'd not be homing such a pup for a good long while until the situation was thoroughly evaluated and I'd be homing it in a rescue context, not selling the puppy.

Ashley
14th July 2008, 12:30 PM
Im a bit dubious about all this too. If said breeder is reputable, then I would expect the highest standards of care and attention to detail. This means no unsupervised playtime outwith a playpen. If someone mentions that the wee pups leg could have gotten caught in the pen.... then care hasnt been taken to ensure the pups are safe. If care hasnt been taken on this aspect of bringing up the pups then I'd wonder where else attention has been lacking... health etc!
We didnt get our pup from a completely reputable breeder, I'll admit.... but I wasnt aware at the time as she talked the talked and really did seem genuinely in to cavaliers and really did care. She had a nice, safe area for the pups etc etc... and so I can be thankful of that I guess.

I would be inclined to ask more questions about how this break happened before deciding whether to take this puppy, or any other from said breeder.

Hope the pup recovers ok! :(

Zippy
14th July 2008, 01:18 PM
I'd be looking for another breeder and passing on the pup.

It's a real shame but as Karlin has pointed out, in children, a spiral fracture is (usually) a sign of abuse.

The growth plates are on the ends of long bones, has nothing to do with where you'd find a spiral fracture (usually central area of long bone).

That alone, tells me the breeder either doesn't know what they're talking about or is just hoping you'll take the pup.

The poor pup will probably have on-going "issues", so smitten or not, I'd get a pup elsewhere.

It's very hard once you've fallen for them.

Sorry that this pup and yourself have had this problem.

Harvey
14th July 2008, 01:27 PM
My boy Harvey broke his leg when he was only 14 weeks old - almost the same in that it was his back leg lower bone. I freaked out when it happen and was so upset.

He had to have the cast on for i think 5 weeks and then bandages for another 4 weeks afterwards as they can very easily get sores on their legs from the cast - which Harvey did but it all healed in no time!!!

He is still the same bouncing little boy he always was and it has left no effect on him at all !!!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/137/320734860_17c59b92cd.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/143/320734859_8ed501147a.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/135/320734856_a6e8175b9c.jpg?v=0

redhare
14th July 2008, 02:39 PM
Thanks everyone. It is hard because I feel attached, but don't want any health problems down the road. The breeder said more would be known in a couple of weeks, but full healing wouldn't occur for over a month...sorry I'm not being clear...

We did our research, and this breeder is one of the best in our area. She bred both parents (they aren't brother and sister!), and the father lives with the breeder we've been communicating with the whole time (he's titled, and she shows many of her dogs, is involved in rescue, etc.). Her dogs are all health tested and we saw all of the current certificates for the pups parents.

We did have some concerns about the house where the female (mom of pups) lives, and this is where the pups were when the accident happened (the breeder and the woman with the female were transferring pups to the car and she said both were outside when accident happened). As far as I know the pups were kept in x-pens with each other. The price of the pup is not discounted either......

We do have the option of purchasing a show-quality female from the same litter; we were there 2 weeks ago when the breeder and several show handlers were there evaluating the pups to AKC standards, and nothing seemed amiss or not right while we were there. This is just so confusing and heart breaking!

Jasperxxgabby
14th July 2008, 06:37 PM
I would be just as confused and heartbroken if I were in your position, but please don't feel guilty if you choose a different pup, you DESERVE a healthy pup, also if you are thinking about taking out insurance for this pup any future problems would be exempt (if the break is caused by an underlying bone weakness) you could be setting yourself up for hefty vet bills. Good luck in what you choose to do.:)

Karlin
14th July 2008, 06:54 PM
I just think this sounds very odd. It is unethical in my book to sell a puppy on that has had a broken leg as if it has had no problems, and charging a full price. I'd find it extraordinary. Not least as it is the breeder's fault that the break happened, to YOUR dog. If she was selling a car and dinged it she'd have to drop the price. This is a health issue that could affect the dog now or later in its life. :sl*p:

I also cannot understand how a reputable breeder would then offer a show quality dog as a replacement (or why -- why ignore that potential and those genes if it is indeed show quality on a pet home). Also breeders are extremely cautious generally in the US about placing show quality females (not least because there's a huge demand from those who are showing for them) -- and they are at much higher risk of being bred unscrupulously. Finding a show quality female tri or blenheim is possibly the single most difficult task for anyone of repute who shows already and they tend to go to show breeders already on a waiting list, so this just sounds odd.

You need to go with your gut instinct however. I would be wondering about many aspects of the situation though. I certainly, under no circumstances, would pay full price for a puppy that has had a fractured leg.

Cathy T
14th July 2008, 07:13 PM
I also cannot understand how a reputable breeder would then offer a show quality dog as a replacement (or why -- why ignore that potential and those genes if it is indeed show quality on a pet home). Also breeders are extremely cautious generally in the US about placing show quality females (not least because there's a huge demand from those who are showing for them) -- and they are at much higher risk of being bred unscrupulously. Finding a show quality female tri or blenheim is possibly the single most difficult task for anyone of repute who shows already and they tend to go to show breeders already on a waiting list, so this just sounds odd.



You've said it all right there. As soon as I saw "show-quality female" as a replacement I immediately began shaking my head. Not possible....just doesn't happen. Can you pm me the name of the breeder? I'd be very curious as to if this is someone with a reputable standing.

Glad Harvey's little leg is all better. I'm trying to remember who it was....someone had a puppy and their husband accidentally stepped on the pup's leg while they were on vacation and broke the leg. The leg healed fine and all was okay.

redhare
14th July 2008, 07:26 PM
The show quality designation may be my interpretation of the evaluation process; we're novices here so bear with me!

We're probably not going to go with this dog, and probably not one from this litter. Too many things just don't add up.....

Cathy T, I sent you a PM. Breeder is member of CKCS club....

Cathy T
14th July 2008, 08:12 PM
Got your pm and will get back to you. Yes, they are a CKCS affiliated breeder.