PDA

View Full Version : Discussion of Pedigree Dogs Exposed



Karlin
19th August 2008, 10:09 PM
There is supposed to be a discussion here (http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:6DRN94Ifg7sJ:www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/fivelive+radio+5+uk&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=safari) for most of the next hour or so.

Just starting. Alternatively if you are using Realplayer you want to find and listen to BBC radio Fivelive.

This entire thread is also here for a board discussion of Pedigree Dogs Exposed.

Karlin
19th August 2008, 10:22 PM
Producer and science broadcaster Jemima Harrison is on as well as a KC representative.

There will be a podcast available of this programme later:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/bacon.shtml

*Pauline*
19th August 2008, 10:26 PM
The guy from the Kennel Club is infuriatingly in denial.

Karlin
19th August 2008, 10:32 PM
So were the receding backs of the prominent cavalier breeders shown at the end on film, refusing to respond to questions about whether a cavalier KNOWN TO HAVE SM should have won the top award at the most prominent cavalier show in the UK and be used to breed over 30 litters, the majrity AFTER his diagnosis. I guess they think it's OK, given that so many other UK breeders, knowing this dog's SM status, still chose to spread this affected dogs' genes further, into puppies that will *primarily go to pet owner homes*.

BTW I note we have an awful lot of UK 'guests' reading threads related to the programme tonight. Hi breeders checking in to see what we say!

icon_welcome

The Irish Times gave me a 1000 word editorial on the topic for the opinion pages of tomorrow's paper on the programme, too. I will post a link in the morning.

This thread can be used by anyone who wishes to discuss the programme. Please do not make statements about anyone that goes beyond known fact, folks. :thmbsup:

merlinsmum
19th August 2008, 10:37 PM
Karlin, - perhaps you should post the same advice on the other thread that is now discussing the "actions & opinions" of the peole shown in this program.

*Pauline*
19th August 2008, 10:45 PM
So were the receding backs of the prominent cavalier breeders shown at the end on film, refusing to respond to questions about whether a cavalier KNOWN TO HAVE SM should have won the top award at the most prominent cavalier show in the UK and be used to breed over 30 litters, the majority AFTER his diagnosis. I guess they think it's OK, given that so many other UK breeders, knowing this dog's SM status, still chose to spread this affected dogs' genes further, into puppies that will *primarily go to pet owner homes*.

Yes, and to think I called one of them to buy a puppy before I got Dylan and she seemed not to like ME!!!

merlinsmum
19th August 2008, 10:49 PM
These people seem to think they are above everyone. I knew there was a reason I didn't show..... for some it seems to be the notoriority (spelt wrong...) of the show ring rather than bettering the health and standard of the breed that spurs them on to achieve their "goal"

Lisa_T
19th August 2008, 10:52 PM
That film broke my heart and infuriated me in equal measure. And yet at the same time I was glad that MVD and SM - and the conditions for the other breeds discussed - were being made so public. I couldn't believe the Cav breeder who said that SM wasn't really SM because 'all dogs scratch'. And the Kennel Club, grr. So what if all the breeders who are opposed to stringent health testing walk? At least that would mean that the dogs shown at Crufts, which is, after all, one of the most prestigious events in the dog calendar - are sound and healthy as well as longlived. That means that the natural fallout of a BiS win will be that hopefully people will be crying out for pups from good dogs.

Yes, this might drive less health conscious breeders away. Yes, they may form their own alternative clubs and shows. Yes, they may continue to breed and sell pups - but they won't have the instant recognition and accreditation that Kennel Club registration gives. Although of course none of this helps the uneducated or unwary buyer who might be particularly susceptible to the experienced talk of such breeders.

Why can't our Kennel Club wake up and smell the coffee Swedish style?!
/end rant.

Tobietots
19th August 2008, 10:57 PM
It is just so disheartening and upsetting seeing what certain breeders are doing knowingly to their dogs and puppies. I cant believe the kennel club do not have a ban in place for deliberate mating of dogs which are close relatives, this appartantly is common practice and the Kennel Club registers dogs bred from mother-to-son and brother-to-sister matings. Its just shocking. It seems like as long as the dog is to breed standard they do not care about its health.

Karlin
19th August 2008, 11:00 PM
The inbreeding study discussed on the progamme is this one:

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=26346

*Pauline*
19th August 2008, 11:03 PM
I actually can't explain how that documentary upset me but I think it was an excellent show. I cried hysterically when I saw the dog having a seizure. Having a daughter with the same condition and it being the most frightening thing I've ever witnessed in my lifetime, I was devastated to see that poor dog and feel for those of you whose dogs suffer this condition and of course SM or any illness with no cure.

Thank you for drawing our attention to the radio show too Karlin, Richard Bacon was great and said everything I wanted to say.

Lisa_T
19th August 2008, 11:06 PM
Check the Cavalier Club for its open letter in response...

[google it. I don't know if the link is allowed and it's to a pdf anyway]

...and I can't remember the tags anyway!

Karlin
19th August 2008, 11:08 PM
Sure, you can link to it.

merlinsmum
19th August 2008, 11:09 PM
I was devastated to see that poor dog and feel for those of you whose dogs suffer this condition and of course SM or any illness with no cure.

.

Me too... , you are all very brave and compassionate people.

Joel refused to watch the show after he had seen the highlights, but he did watch it, in the end. I've never known him get passionate about "dog stuff" - thats always my area - he has since gone to bed in a state of disgust that people mindlessly breed from dogs suffering from sm ( he has never seen the symptoms before.)

Karlin
19th August 2008, 11:09 PM
BTW the breeder who was upset that Jemima Harrison questioned the breeder with the winning Malvern dog, and refused to answer any further questions at the very end, is the health representative for one of the largest UK regional clubs.

Justine
19th August 2008, 11:09 PM
Well,i cant believe the 2 SMUG kennel club top dogs.We have a very old pocket book on breeds and hubby and i noticed the difference in the breeds all of 10 yrs ago.I feel like sending a nasty email to the kennel club,i wont do this at this moment in time becos i might regret some of my choice in words.I have just taken the boys out for wee and i just looked at them both with sadness knowing they may have just a short life.

merlinsmum
19th August 2008, 11:10 PM
I noticed that too - they put up on the screen who she was and what club she belonged to.

littlelady
19th August 2008, 11:12 PM
I found it very upsetting! I know this might sound strange but it's just a question?? I gave birth to 2 healthy children i went on to have my third child and she was born with heart diease! Had to have open heart surgery will never be as healthy as a normal child and her children could have the same defect , could this happen with our dogs??? myself and my family have no heart defect emily was the first born with it. just another thought and i dont want an arguement.:flwr:

Karlin
19th August 2008, 11:13 PM
Oh heck, why be coy? :) It was Veronica Hull of the Southern Cavalier Club. That is a fact, and her comments are on record, and I am sure she will firmly stand by her expressed point of view.

Justine
19th August 2008, 11:14 PM
Why cant we get a email petion to the Irish kennel Club for a response to that program and see what they have to say to it.

Ashley
19th August 2008, 11:14 PM
The programme should be available for viewing soon on BBC iPlayer.

Here is the link to BBC One http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/tv/bbc_one
When you select todays listings, it states that the programme is 'coming soon', so best to just check in now and again!

Karlin
19th August 2008, 11:17 PM
Only UK and NI residents can use the iPlayer but anyone in those areas can go back and watch the programme. :thmbsup:

People can also download the podcast of the FiveLive programme later; it is about an hour.

There are over 18 pages of comments on the BBC News article in advance of the programme, the most they have ever had on a posted story.

merlinsmum
19th August 2008, 11:18 PM
Oh heck, why be coy? :) It was Veronica Hull of the Southern Cavalier Club. That is a fact, and her comments are on record, and I am sure she will firmly stand by her expressed point of view.


With the comments made by the "face" of the Southern Cavalier Club, it would be interesting to see where the populations of sm suffering cavaliers actually reside within the UK........

*Pauline*
19th August 2008, 11:20 PM
Oh heck, why be coy? :) It was Veronica Hull of the Southern Cavalier Club. That is a fact, and her comments are on record, and I am sure she will firmly stand by her expressed point of view.
Yep. You may as well name and shame as her name was on the screen. :swear:

Tobietots
19th August 2008, 11:28 PM
Here are the links of the Cavalier club and the Kennel clubs responses to the programme. If anyone wants to view them.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1976/23/5/3

http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/BBC_080709.pdf

Claire L
19th August 2008, 11:28 PM
I had an idea that this programme was going to be upsetting but I actually sat with my hand over my mouth in shock and disbelief for the whole hour that it aired.
I can't believe that the KC does not require any health checks AT ALL :eek:
and the woman whose dog won best in show OMG!!!!!! PEOPLE ARE PROBABLY PAYING A SMALL FORTUNE FOR THAT POOR ANIMALS OFF-SPRING :x:x I'm sorry but, I know there are good breeders out there but the only difference I saw on my TV tonight between BYB's and those who were on that programme is the latter got to be on TV.

Justine
19th August 2008, 11:29 PM
Its funny,that they dont like what you say to them yet they have NO GUILT over what they are doing,but we are worried about who we are talking about.Who is in the wrong here.Not us.THEM.

Jasperxxgabby
19th August 2008, 11:52 PM
Please, please, please if any of you breeders are looking in on this discussion board and are denying these diseases are a huge problem in this beautiful breed, and are showing, breeding and selling pups to pet homes, look at that distressing video of the ckcs on tonights program that is what you're potentially selling, a bundle of heartache to a family and a life riddled in pain for precious dog, please accept there is a big problem, be more health focused do the appropriate tests, please.

That program was shocking.

pippa
20th August 2008, 12:14 AM
I found the whole programme to be just heartbreaking..people just burying their heads in sand!

Arlene
20th August 2008, 12:14 AM
I would just like to add to the above post.

I happen to love some breeders.:)

It has to be very hard to be a breeder who is doing all they can and see this. You would have to be feeling very defensive even though the program and comments are aimed at the others who are knowingly not doing even near their best.

My heart goes out to those breeders as well, because I do know how they do devote their life to doing well by their dogs, and our pets.

I have not seen the program yet - I am in Canada. I have been reading Jemimas questions and comments on another list for a couple of years. I know her heart is where mine is and where the hearts of the best breeders are. It is with our dogs.

I am glad this film is helping to educate those less involved in the dog world and out looking for a pet about the many, many faces some breeders can have. I think that is advantageous to all who love dogs, and especially to the good breeders.

Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier.:)

Sabby
20th August 2008, 12:19 AM
I never had been to a Cavalier Show before. I went along to the Malvern Show as my friend has her Cavaliers heart & eye tested there. There were a few friendly people there, but you could very much tell that it’s all about winning, money and what ever it is that makes these people happy. I felt very much like an outsider. Somebody was carrying what looked like a 10 week old puppy around to get it used to the hassle and bustle of the show. The poor thing was shaking like a leaf. Just didn’t like the whole atmosphere.

Sabby

Cathy T
20th August 2008, 12:29 AM
Keep in mind that I'm in the States and haven't been able to see this show. I just wanted to verify:

There is a breeder with a Best in Show whose dog has SM yet she continues to breed the dog?

Surely you can't be serious :(

Give me the healthy dog over the BIS with SM offspring (no matter how good looking!!) Health has got to trump looks.

Shelli
20th August 2008, 12:32 AM
There is a breeder with a Best in Show whose dog has SM yet she continues to breed the dog?

Shocking isnt it!
I think 26 litters he sired since he was diagnosed :eek::eek:

hbmama
20th August 2008, 12:55 AM
I would think that would be grounds to kick that breeder out of "good standing" in the Cavalier club and the Kennel Club she belongs to. Isn't that a violation of the Code of Ethics?

Karlin
20th August 2008, 01:05 AM
The breeders I know who are health focused will only be relieved these issues are out in the open. Right now there is so much pressure on not being seen to make a big deal out MRIs that many health focused breeders cannot even find out who else is MRIing as the subject is verboten. :( I think a large collective sigh of relief went up from many, many breeders who are trying to do something and have run into walls.

On the breeder with the diagnosed cavalier at the Malvern show -- yes this is true -- and at the end of the documentary, a group of prominent CKCS breeders attending a health meeting was asked directly if they thought it was OK to breed from such a dog. They refused to reply and walked off. One, mentioned previously, gave out to Jemima Harrison for ruining the woman's day by asking her if her dog had SM. The breeder, incidentally, said no. And nearly 30 breeders, at least some of whom would have known that dog was diagnosed with SM, chose to use him as a stud anyway. And most of those puppies will, of course, go to pet homes.

Claire L
20th August 2008, 01:09 AM
The Kennel Club General Code of Ethics

30-May-06


http://ad.uk.doubleclick.net/activity;src=1113814;type=puppy873;cat=codeo046;or d=1;num=7817815973909.266?
All breeders who register their puppies with the Kennel Club accept the jurisdiction of the Kennel Club and undertake to abide by its General Code of Ethics.

The registered owners of all Kennel Club registered dogs accept the jurisdiction of the Kennel Club and undertake to abide by this General Code of Ethics:

Owners will properly house, feed, water and exercise all dogs under their care and arrange for appropriate veterinary attention if and when required.
Owners will not allow any of their dogs to roam at large or to cause a nuisance to neighbours or those carrying out official duties.
Owners will ensure that their dogs will wear properly tagged collars and shall be kept fully leashed or under effective control when away from home.
Owners will clean up after their dogs in public places or anywhere where they compete with their dogs.
Owners will agree without reservation that any veterinary surgeon performing an operation on any of their dogs which alters the natural conformation of the animal, may report such operation to the Kennel Club.
Owners agree not to breed from a bitch in any way which is deleterious to the bitch or breed.
Owners agree only to sell dogs where there is a reasonable expectation of a happy and healthy life and will help with the re-homing of a dog if the initial circumstances change.
Owners will supply written details of all dietary requirements and give guidance concerning responsible ownership when placing dogs in a new home.
Owners will not sell any dog to commercial dog wholesalers, retail pet dealers or directly or indirectly allow dogs to be given as a prize or donation in a competition of any kind.
Owners will not knowingly misrepresent the characteristics of the breed nor falsely advertise dogs or mislead any person regarding the quality of a dog.
Owners will ensure that all relevant Kennel Club documents are provided to the new owner when selling or transferring a dog. The owner will agree, in writing, to forward any relevant documents at the earliest opportunity, if not immediately available.
You would think so.

debbiek
20th August 2008, 01:15 AM
[quote=Karlin;281179]The breeders I know who are health focused will only be relieved these issues are out in the open. Right now there is so much pressure on not being seen to make a big deal out MRIs that many health focused breeders cannot even find out who else is MRIing as the subject is verboten. :( I think a large collective sigh of relief went up from many, many breeders who are trying to do something and have run into walls.



Well said Karlin and so so true :thmbsup:

Alison_Leighfield
20th August 2008, 09:06 AM
If breeders cannot be open and honest and bring these health issues into the open then we hit on some difficult times. Then added to this if they have the problem that they can't even find out who is scanning and who isn't, then where do they go for their stud dogs and breeding bitches and the next generations from which they will want to breed from?

Surely it would be wrong to take risks by possibly inbreeding or going close to offspring or to an unscanned parent because of the lack of others that are not know about? Surely there are only so many times that a clear scanned stud dog can be used and litters given by a clear scanned bitch? what happens when that gets exhausted and there isn't anywhere new to go? are there enough MRI clear Cavaliers to help this breed?

Hopefully the film will encourage other breeders to scan and to find other clear Cavaliers.

I also want to ask,

If a simple pet home Cavalier, male or female of not the "Typical show type" was found to be MRI clear with a good scan, proberbly mis-marked or even just larger than desired, or a rescue/re-home without any papers, would any breeders consider using this Cavalier if permitted by the owner to open the gene pool a little? I asked this question some years ago and I didn't find a breeder that would. Perhaps times have changed.

Alison.

joanna
20th August 2008, 09:58 AM
I'm sorry but, I know there are good breeders out there but the only difference I saw on my TV tonight between BYB's and those who were on that programme is the latter got to be on TV.


Here here Claire, my thoughts exactly. How exactly are people supposed to find a reputable breeder now?? If the people shown on the program tonight are suposed to be dedicated to the preservation of the breed then I fear the cavalier and many other breeds are doomed. So speak up reputable breeders. Come on here and convince us otherwise.

daveoirl
20th August 2008, 09:59 AM
Of course these questionable breeders will get defensive/aggressive when anyone mentions anything about them having to carry out MRI scans and other health checks. Why? As it will more than likely show that a lot of their breeding dogs have issues, and thus, they will make less money from breeding.

The KC should be completely re-structured, and strict rules should be imposed:
1. To be KC registered the breeder should have to perform relevant health checks on the breed(s) they intend to work with. They must produce official documentation from acredited vets to prove such before getting a license to breed any dog.
2. These health checks/tests must be carried out every number of years, depending on breed.
3. Official ongoing inspections must be carried out on breeders facilities.
4. If a dog fails any health check which has implications for offspring, it breeding license would be revoked immediately
5. Public awareness must be a key aspect with the KC. They must make the public aware of the new breeding license. And to make sure that if people are buying a pedigree animal that it comes from a licensed breeder. Which will drastically reduce the chances of their animal developing serious health issues

This will have a severe knock on affect, but in the long run would be good for every breed:
1. Price would rise dramatically for officially bred puppies
2. Supply would fall off sharply
3. Breeders will take a huge financial hit, for some it will be unrecoverable

This would only work with public awareness and co-operation. People would have to know that if they buy an "official" puppy, they will pay more, but they would be getting a much healthier animal. Vet costs would be significantly lower.

If they buy from an underground breeder, they will save money initially, but it could cost more in the long run. Plus they would not be getting a "pedigree" dog.
I could be taking crap here, as I have no real knowledge of how all this works, but to me it seems that drastic measures are needed to stem this increasingly serious problem.

Molly Mo
20th August 2008, 10:04 AM
Yes and she is still breeding, people like this dont deserve to be in the show ring. I lost a cavalier at 2 to SM, breeders who continue to breed knowing that there dogs have SM is disgusting, they need to go and spend some time with a family with a dog with SM and see for themselves the pain and discomfort not only the dog goes through but also the family. We cant forget the good breeders out there who are doing SO much for SM, why can't everyone work together with this, it is heartbreaking it really is.

Alison_Leighfield
20th August 2008, 10:11 AM
Had the same situation, the breeder that bred my Pippa that I lost at 10 months with SM went and bred her mum again even though I had informed him and his vet with papers and information about the condition. I grilled him with 100 questions about SM before I bought her having lost a previous dog with it....he took no notice, said his breeder friend said the condition didn't exist :(

I got a refund of £250 from the £550 that I paid after I demanded the money to be returned. I had to wait for the next litter to be born so that he could pay me...He still breeds, lots of them.

Alison.

Molly Mo
20th August 2008, 10:16 AM
My first cavalier was Pippa! and we informed the breeder, they didnt care at all, and they are still breeding, it makes me so cross. There are good breeders out there who are doing everything they can, I just get so frustrated that some breeders know what they are doing is wrong, but dont care, they cant care for the breed they just care about the money and winning.

sins
20th August 2008, 10:48 AM
I got a refund of £250 from the £550 that I paid after I demanded the money to be returned. I had to wait for the next litter to be born so that he could pay me...He still breeds, lots of them.

I'm afraid that's what it will take to prevent breeders from knowingly producing affected litters.By landing back the medical reports and demanding money back it might make them think twice about their actions.
If I had a kennel with good show lines and I'd discovered that an SM affected sire had been knowingly allowed to sire pups with one of my breeding bitches and this was concealed from me, I'd be sitting in my solicitor's office right now.
Sins

amanda L
20th August 2008, 11:03 AM
Karlin wrote:



BTW the breeder who was upset that Jemima Harrison questioned the breeder with the winning Malvern dog, and refused to answer any further questions at the very end, is the health representative for one of the largest UK regional clubs.


That breeder should step down from the position of health representative.
I hope club breeders with the Irish KC were watching, and that those who do not health test, will finally come out of denial regarding the prevalence and the implications of MVD and SM in our beloved breed.

debbiek
20th August 2008, 11:09 AM
Hi Everybody,
I am a dedicated breeder that does abide by the required health testing My stock is all MRI before breeding and i have just exported a clear stud dog to the USA to help the gene pool over there ,there ARE very responsible breeders out there good friends of mine who hold the health of the cavalier very dearly we are small in number and ofen thought of as "health nutters" but we are trying our best for the love of the breed ,i fear though we are fighting a losing battle as quite simply there is not enough of us to make the difference to save this wonderful breed :(

daveoirl
20th August 2008, 11:30 AM
i fear though we are fighting a losing battle as quite simply there is not enough of us to make the difference to save this wonderful breed

First of all, it is great that there are breeders like you out there. It is sad there are not more.
Hopefully, this documentary might do something to start the ball rolling on change, and at the very least stimulate worthwhile debate on the subject. Don't give up, there is always a chink of light with which to guide your efforts.

Molly Mo
20th August 2008, 11:58 AM
Thank you to all the breeders out there who are doing there best for this lovely breed

BobbyPuppy
20th August 2008, 12:13 PM
The only way forward is through legislation.

Breeders must be made to follow MVD recommendations and have the mother and father MRI scanned.

Those in the know about cavaliers can search for the pups with a better chance of a long and healthy life but those completely new to this world are so vulnerable.

I looked at 7 different litters in the South of England last year before I found a litter where the father was over 5 years old with a clear heart certificate. A basic requirement you would think. Apparently not.

The programme last night was upsetting and hard-hitting but so so necessary. What a complete star Carol Fowler is for doing all that work on her own. Does anyone have a contact email for her please? I am full of admiration.

There are a lot of greedy and corrupt people in the Cavalier world. I know this for a fact and can prove it with many emails.
Shame on those breeders for justifying their behaviour and for being too weak to take a stand: they are no doubt breeding dogs with SM and MVD and passing it on and on. All so wrong.

That woman in the programme who knowingly lied and said her winning dog did not have SM - WHAT IS GOING ON???

Legislation is the only way to move things forward.

TKC
20th August 2008, 12:29 PM
We all watched with Pizza and Wine and we had to keep pausing and rewinding (thank goodness for sky plus). The UK Kennel Club Rep was a total idiot and such a bad liar (all those twitches and smurks).

The documentary was first class and should receive an award. Well done to Jemima for being so very gutsy .. wow superb journalism. I envy her courage and confidence.

This should be the kick up the butt the breeders have needed for a long time. The reputable breeders who do health test will be delighted as I am sure they are in the minority and with the show world being such a clique they need this support. Things are now going to turn on them and the public, now more educated will be asking TONS of questions.

I do hope there is follow on from this. We plan on doing a press release today to include asking the public to lobby government to include health screening of pedigree dogs to be included in the Animal Welfare Bill. The system already exists in Sweden to it should be easier to base our system on their one.

Agree 100% re Legislation. I hope the owners of Done Deal and Buy and Sell online were watching too.

Big round of applaus to Jemima and the production crew and BBC for airing this. What a can of worms to open!

chloe92us
20th August 2008, 02:31 PM
I would love to see this show- I'm in the states and didn't have access. Karlin, can you post a link? I'm sure there's one that exists....I tried the first one you posted, but there is not a podcast listed.

Thanks.

TKC
20th August 2008, 02:47 PM
Here are some excerpts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgwWVofxydQ

Harry & Heidi's mom
20th August 2008, 02:47 PM
I watched it this morning (had recorded it on my sky+ box)

It was heartbreaking, i was stunned

but what i really truely couldn't understand was the whole Ridgeback thing??

The ridge on a ridgeback is spina bifida??? and they KILL pups without this ridge?? THE HEALTHY ONES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sell the ones that are deformed cos they have the ridge, and kill the healthy ones without a ridge......... makes no sense AT ALL

arghhhh the whole thing infuriated me!!!

merlinsmum
20th August 2008, 02:51 PM
IMO - its all about money - greedy greedy people playing god with lives:bang:

Sibealb
20th August 2008, 03:06 PM
Absolute greed is correct i cannot believe that woman bred 26 of 32 litters knowing the dog had sm , and whatsmore denied it .
That lady Carol is so admirable, and its great to see how forward and active (some) cavalier groups are when it comes to screening health. I would certainly watch it again just to shot at the tv some more.
I must add Karlin was so informative when we adopted our two and was so helpful explaining various conditions, i still could not have imagined how devastating sm could be .
Seeing that poor dog on the floor crying out in agony , not only brought me to tears but really rammed home to me the gravity of the condition and a very good point was made that nobody brings a puppy home foreseeing this. Please god it will make potential cavalier owners wary , and ask all the right questions when they are choosing a breeder.

Well done bbc:thmbsup:

Ashley
20th August 2008, 03:13 PM
I just watched it through BBC iPlayer as well and was shocked. I knew about the problems with Cavaliers but CANNOT believe some of these breeders... such as that women who has already been mentioned, that has bred from her dog 26 times since finding out he has SM!!! This is outrageous! Her denying it was just icing on the cake!!!!!

Good on that lady Carol. What a star she is! :thmbsup:

That poor boxer as well having fits :(... and the pekingese Crufts winner :(... and the Ridgebacks!

I was shocked about the Ridgebacks too, Harry&Heidys mom.

Its one of those programmes where I am glad I watched it... but on the other hand would rather I hadnt! :(

Sibealb
20th August 2008, 03:30 PM
That poor boxer as well having fits :(... and the pekingese Crufts winner :(... and the Ridgebacks!

I found it horrific that the lady with the pug (or pekingese i don't remember which) was so blassé about the dog passing out!:mad: She was just like "oh if he gets too excited he can't breath and passes out , and then hops back up a few minutes later.." Hello? how can she attempt to normalise this ? the dog's face is clearly so flat he can't breath normally... if one of ours was laboring to breath like that, without being for a run or some kind of excercise, i'd be sitting in the vets panicking.
Certainly not passing it off as 'normal' :bang:

frecklesmom
20th August 2008, 04:36 PM
Youtube has now 3 segments of the broadcast and IMHO the entire show will be on there thanks to a lovely person from Ireland. I'm so glad she's doing this but so sad at what I see and definitely wanting to wring some necks :bang:

Nicki
20th August 2008, 05:10 PM
If you're in the UK, this is the link you need - this is part one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1LyjlX4Mp8

the rest are accessible from here

http://www.youtube.com/user/jkatyt3

Ashley
20th August 2008, 05:17 PM
Heres the link for those in the uk to the full episode on iPlayer...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00d4ljk/b00d4l8y/ (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00d4ljk/b00d4l8y/)

frecklesmom
20th August 2008, 05:59 PM
It's all up now on Youtube.

Cathy T
20th August 2008, 07:09 PM
I just finished watching it on You Tube...and am speechless. Wow has that opened my eyes to what so many big name breeders are doing. I know who you are and you have no support from me (just a ignorant little pet owner!!!) but I sure will pass your name along to every single person I know who is even considering purchasing a Cavalier. I am so angry right now I can barely contain myself.

Thank God we have people like Carol, Margaret, Clare and Karlin who actually give a damn about the health of our breed. Structure, markings, gait.....so incredibly less important than health. That an SM dog should actually be chosen BIS just blows me away. Really opened my eyes to shows and what they are really about. It should be a combination of health and appearance. A dog cursed with SM is not the best representation of the breed. The beauty of the dog should be more than just the outward appearance.

chloe92us
20th August 2008, 08:37 PM
I just finished watching the show, in its entirety, on youtube. I have to say what startled me MOST was the before and after pictures of the breeds (GSD, bassets, etc). The truth is I thought all the dogs looked better before. What has happened to many breeds is a tragedy.

I wish I could see some pictures of Cavaliers when they were first reintroduced. Does anyone have any? Have their heads/ skulls been bred smaller and smaller since then? Has SM just recently become a problem in the breed? When I was researching my first Cavalier 6 years ago, I never read anything about SM.

That poor Peke who won BIS a few years back...I remember watching that and thinking "that is NOT a dog, that is a FREAK!" I have never seen, and never hope to see, a Peke that looks like that. I am disgusted by the parade of freakish dogs and don't think I can watch another show knowing what I know now. For the same reasons so many human pagents (spelling?) have been protested and dropped, people are now seeing dog shows for what they are.

Arlene
20th August 2008, 09:01 PM
There are some photos here - a comparison of Cavaliers today to 30 years ago.

http://www.premiercavalierinfosite.com/Head%20Shapes.htm

This page has a short list of photos at the bottom as well.

http://www.premiercavalierinfosite.com/mri_comp_page.htm

Of course, back in the early 1900s King Charles Spaniels were all flat faced, but in the mid 1800s, many looked like this guy.

http://store.encore-editions.com/Detailed_Print_Information/English_School-King_Charles_Spaniel_Head_Study.html

This is another page that shows lots of pictures of Toy Spaniels through a few periods. (Notice there are black masked tricolors and whole colors, as well as a black masked sable amongst these)

http://www.encore-editions.com/cavaliergifts.htm

And of course, the dog the current breed was founded on is Ann's Son. He is on this page, with his son (and I believe great grandson as well), Daywell Roger.
[/URL]
[URL]http://www.arkwebshost.com/nonprofit/cavalierkcsuk/Cavalier_King_Charles_Spaniel_History.shtml (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.arkwebshost.com/nonprofit/cavalierkcsuk/ann_s_son_3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.arkwebshost.com/nonprofit/cavalierkcsuk/Cavalier_King_Charles_Spaniel_History.shtml&h=474&w=641&sz=386&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=gl94wWVmkM0ONM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAnn%2527s%2BSon%2Bcavalier%26um%3D1%2 6hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7GFRC%26sa%3DN)

Arlene and her three, J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel mix, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier.:)

Arlene
20th August 2008, 09:04 PM
I was mistaken about Daywell Roger (should have looked, the pedigree is right there,):). Daywell Roger is grandson and great grandson to Ann's Son.

Arlene and her three, J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel mix, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier.

team bella
20th August 2008, 11:10 PM
Just got back from dog school tonight and everyone there was disgusted by the issues highlighted. I believe the kennel club's reputation is in tatters and it cannot be trusted. Also I was looking through a breed book from the 1970's today and you can really see how many of the breeds have really changed including the Cavalier.
The positive from all this terrible situation, is that everyone is talking about it and if we all put pressure on KC then we could force through change. It worked in Sweden so it can here!!! My little dog already has the heart problem and she's just 2. I keep praying there's nothing else. Let's try to make change, lets try to stop this suffering.

Maxxs_Mummy
20th August 2008, 11:46 PM
Oh heck, why be coy? :) It was Veronica Hull of the Southern Cavalier Club. That is a fact, and her comments are on record, and I am sure she will firmly stand by her expressed point of view.


Yup, no doubt she will.

[edited by Admin]

I have always believed that a good breeder never actually makes any money on breeding dogs as it all gets ploughed back into them. Amazing, as I have known a guy who breeds GSD's and has had BIB at Crufts and also a 2nd etc - wins something good every year..... He was hoping one of his bitches had caught last year as his wife wanted a new kitchen.... says it all!

Karlin
20th August 2008, 11:56 PM
Just a reminder please to keep discussions of individuals confined to published fact. :thmbsup:

I'd prefer discussions to focus on issues rather than individuals.

Maxxs_Mummy
21st August 2008, 12:07 AM
*Blush* sorry *rubs slapped wrist* <grin>

Have taken strong painkillers so can I be excused?

Karlin
21st August 2008, 12:11 AM
Sure. :) I agree with your opinion but prefer for it not to be public. :lol:

Arlene once again thanks for posting such interesting links!

Nicki
21st August 2008, 04:37 PM
I still haven't calmed down, am so upset and saddened by this - I appreciate that the program was edited to sensationalise many aspects, but despite that, the attitude of the breeders was shocking. I didn't know about the Rhodesian Ridgebacks and am absolutely horrified.

With regard to the Cavaliers, some of you are aware that I have several SM dogs here - one is severely affected and is only still with us as I have done considerable amounts of research with the help of my wonderful vet, and we have been lucky enough to find a cocktail of drugs which control the pain and give him a wonderful quality of life - that is my lovely TedBear. I still wonder if we should have gone for surgery but it is very experimental and the results are just not good enough for me to justify putting him through that. Carol Fowler, with Rosie, on the film, did have her operated on and it's wonderful to see her looking so well.

My oldie, Rupert, now 12, also has SM, but is much more mildly affected, also has a good quality of life but we almost lost him some years back when he had an extremely bad pain episode, he was just screaming and screaming, you couldn't touch him anywhere on his body, and he couldn't even rest his head on a pillow. We went to the vets to have him PTS, but fortunately by the time we arrived he was coming out of the episode and with pain meds and about 6 months of rehabilitation {he couldn't walk very far and we were even trialing a disabled cart for some weeks with him}; he returned to his normal self and is still full of life. He still has problems with grooming, can only be walked with a harness, has his food bowl raised etc, but really we are so lucky - he is a son of Monty, Margaret Carter's dog whose photo was shown in the film. Margaret has always been incredibly supportive. She is being heavily criticised by many in the breed club, but has worked so hard to set up initiatives for testing etc, and for bringing Syringomyelia to the attention of the public.

Studies have shown that up to 90% of the Cavalier population have the malformation of the skull, although "only" up to about 50% will ever show symptoms of Syringomyelia. Sadly lots of breeders do kennel their dogs and would not therefore see many of the symptoms.


The Kennel Club have now set a scheme in place for a condition called CLAD which affects Irish Setters, so that only puppies from clear parents can be registered - it can be done, and is starting to happen in a few breeds. It's much harder with Syringomyelia, due to the amount of dogs with the malformation, but also because it's not so clear cut - what one neurologist considers to be clear, another says is mildly affected - which has caused problems for breeders.

Sadly many breeders do only care about what's winning in the ring, the glory and have no interest in the future of the breed and its health, or that probably 90% of the puppies they breed will end up in pet homes - and they are setting up those homes for considerable heartbreak, let alone the expense. They won't travel miles to health test, or to use a health tested stud dog - unless it is the current "popular sire", but will of course travel miles to attend shows....

I am probably viewed as another "health nutter" - I do now have a 1 year old Tricolour bitch - only with the help and support of Debbie k on the board - THANK YOU SO MUCH :flwr: - who was recently scanned and is one of the 10% who has a completely normal skull. I hope to breed from her in the future and hope that we can make a contribution to improving the health of this wonderful breed. Daisy has been placed at Championship shows recently, so health tested dogs CAN still win at shows...



It was very distressing the witness that poor boxer fitting - and see the distress of his guardians too.

I admire Passionate Productions and particularly their reporter, Jemima, for highlighting these issues and bringing them to the attention of the general public - hopefully now it will finally push the Kennel Club into doing SOMETHING.

The fantastic work carried out by Margaret Carter, Carol Fowler, our own Karlin, and many others has really helped to get information out to the people who NEED to know - the puppy buyers. I think this is one of the best ways we can change breeders' practises, by putting pressure on breeders to health test - hopefully then we can find more clear dogs and have more hope for the future.

Alison_Leighfield
21st August 2008, 09:28 PM
Great to read that one little dog will at least have a normal, happy healthy life without the pain of SM. Thats just wonderful news. The best news ever.

All "Daisy" dogs are extra special and lovely!

Alison.

sins
21st August 2008, 10:19 PM
Those links were amazing Arlene! The difference in head shape is very marked.I think my Daisy is definitely the Farrah Fawcett of cavaliers...firmly stuck in 1977:p
My mother in law has a book on dog breeding from the early 1920's.
It has all the old drawings and the breed standard for King Charles spaniels.I'll read it again and see if it says anything about the health of the breed back then.
Sins

Karlin
21st August 2008, 10:42 PM
The key point about the lovely Daisy is that you know she is looking good because she was scanned. :) There are probably many more Daisys out there whose genes should be very important to the breed's future, but without scans, and without breeders sharing this information, they remain hidden and may never be used for their potential.

Maxxs_Mummy
21st August 2008, 11:18 PM
Here, here Nicki. It's about time someone actually thought about the puppy buyer - it's not the breeders who charge sometimes extortionate amounts for unhealthy dogs, who have to sit and watch them suffer.

Let's hope Daisy goes on to be a champ and have a couple of healthy litters to widen the healthy gene pool :)

*Pauline*
21st August 2008, 11:26 PM
Sadly many breeders do only care about what's winning in the ring, the glory

And the £££££! She could have shown that dog (right or wrong) for the glory and not put him out to stud for the cash.

angelmommy
22nd August 2008, 12:08 AM
i for one was deeply disturbed by this programme especially the poor ridgebacks. and the cavie that was in so much pain and when that boxer had a fit i was in tears

just wanted to say that some people have set up an informal group on Facebook, and are hoping to get the Cavvie lady (featured in the show) onside to set up petitions etc to get the KC to sit up and take notice of the public!

This is their link:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2......80412516&ref=nf (http://www.preloved.co.uk/index.cfm?eu=M2ZR%3E%3EGH%3C%5BY%3B%5DH%2F*TCDR%5C 7MFYB%2B%213G%3AC4%40E%25KJ%3C%5E2G%28%2B%3BIOB9P% 3FV%281X.3D4%5EJ%0AMA%5C%294-%40%28%297Q%2F%5B.3ZMOA3%2B7IJ%22%2B960%25%2CNN%5C Y%28%3CQKE1NT2GO_..H%5BG6W%28D-E8%2B%22%0A8X%25%2F_%5E%2FOK%22NK7%5BX8%2FZ%2CP%21 T4%25%3C%2B0%2BJB2%26%28%0A)

Just thought i'd let everyone know! :-)

Karlin
22nd August 2008, 02:50 PM
I have been given permission to crosspost this from another list -- the person is known to me but I have removed her name for her own privacy. She feels it is important for this to be known to help the breed and stop the deliberate breeding of affected dogs, in Lucky's name.


Subject: Re: Controversy over BBC documentary on cavaliers

Here's my 2 cents worth.
I had a beautiful dog named Lucky. He was an owner handled AKC champion
at age 18 months but even months before that he had some SM symptoms.
Lucky required SM surgery once at age 2 and PSOM surgery 3 times. Lucky
died from complicatons of his 3rd PSOM surgery but I strongly suspect
the symptoms that led to his repeat PSOM surgery were probably due to
recurrent SM. Lucky repeatedly attacked one of my other dogs so
severely and so repeatedly and without warning that I eventually had to
place him with a vet cardiology resident. He died about 6 months after
he went to live with her.

Why am I rehashing this....because Lucky's sire was the pictured BIS
winner on the documentary. That made this pretty personal to me. I
tried to contact his sire's breeder/owner by mail (I have never found an
email address for her) to let her know of Lucky's problems but NEVER
heard anything back from her. Since we live on different sides of the
Atlantic, I did not go by for a visit. I did get very gracious feedback
from his dam's owner but nothing from the sire's side. It took 2 dogs
to create Lucky. The fact that his sire has been bred so extensively is
really sad to me. I hate to think that there are other dogs out there
with Lucky's difficulties. I hope there aren't but I'll never know
because that information is not easily obtainable.

I wish first and foremost that Lucky had not had to go through all the
difficulties he went through. I wish that I could have not gone through
the heartbreak of loving him, putting him through surgery, dealing with
dog aggression in a breed that should not be aggressive, having to make
a choice of which dog to keep, having to give him away, and then having
him die. I wish that I felt I could contact a breeder and not feel
anxious about asking about health testing, including MRI's for SM. I
wish I could have another cavalier like Lucky but without SM. I don't
know if any of these wishes will ever come true.

Karlin
22nd August 2008, 07:47 PM
Review of the programme from the Independent


Last Night's TV: No prizes for the pedigree chumps
Pedigree Dogs Exposed, BBC1; Olympics 2008 BBC1

By Thomas Sutcliffe
Wednesday, 20 August 2008

Judging from last night's Pedigree Dogs Exposed, the very worst thing you can have stirred into your genetic mix – far more debilitating than a disease-bearing gene – is human self-regard and vanity. Nature, after all, has its ways of getting around defective genes, so that only the fittest survive. But nature has no answer to the inbred self-righteousness of many dog breeders, a species dedicated to the creation and maintenance of canine cartoons. If it's desirable for your particular breed cartoon to have a flat upturned nose, then that's what you'll get, even if – as in the case of many pedigree pugs – half of your soft palate is pushed down your throat as a result. And if the cartoon requires a pertly cute little skull shape, you'll get that, too, and you'll just have to put up with the fact that there's no longer quite enough room for your brain, so that you may end up in twitching agony with a disease called syringomyelia.

Jemima Harrison's powerful film began with some case studies of cavalier spaniels, which had suffered from this disease – known to be a problem for the breed – and I imagine it will have gone off like a bomb in quite a few British living rooms. I wouldn't count myself as a dog lover. In fact, I only recently qualified as a dog tolerator, after several unrewarding years of intimacy with a wire-haired fox terrier. So if this footage can make me angry, I don't like to think what it will do to viewers with a more heartfelt interest in canine welfare.

The burden of Harrison's film was simple. There are rising levels of disease and distress in pedigree breeds as humans tinker with their genetic make-up to suit their own entirely artificial notion of "breed purity". And the Kennel Club – keeper of the flame of breed type and promoter of dog-show ideals – is not doing nearly enough to prevent the pain and suffering continuing. The case of Rhodesian ridgebacks neatly exemplifies the problem. For the Kennel Club, and ridgeback breeders, the dogs' spinal ridge is "the escutcheon of the breed", an indispensable element of any prize-winning dog. In scientific terms, though, the ridge is also a marker of disease and spinal deformity, and breeding for more prominent ridges has led to an increasing number of dogs with spinal problems. Left to their own devices, the dogs would soon put this right, but ridgeback breeders take care that puppies born without a ridge don't contaminate the gene pool with their unsightly good health. This isn't always easy, given the perverse reluctance of some vets to kill healthy puppies. "We do have trouble nowadays with the young vets who tend to see everything in black and white," said one ridgeback breeder. "'It's a healthy, beautiful puppy, there's nothing wrong with it except that it hasn't got a ridge,'" she continued, parodying their woolly-minded soft-heartedness. In many cases, the disease is intimately knitted together with the characteristics that have been decreed "desirable". George the pug, a hairy collage of physical abnormalities, demonstrated the point nicely. Pugs are supposed to have tightly curled tails, but breed for that and you get twisted spines thrown into the mix for free. George's spine kinked like a crank handle, but it hadn't stopped him qualifying for Crufts, and Harrison had come up with several cases here in which breeders were knowingly breeding from dogs with serious genetic disorders, a situation that the Kennel Club appears to have done little to prevent.

Harrison's most potent evidence, though, was the contrast between Victorian specimens of various breeds, and their grotesquely exaggerated modern counterparts. The Victorian basset hound was unmistakably still a dog, sturdy and handsome. The modern show basset – draped with folds of skin and belly scraping the ground – is a sideshow freak. This was a film that should have legislative consequences, and in the meantime the BBC itself might like to reflect on how it contributes to the problem with its uncritical coverage of Crufts, the Olympics of engineered disability.


From http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/film-and-tv/tv-radio-reviews/last-nights-tv-no-prizes-for-the-pedigree-chumps-902755.html

elaine181000
22nd August 2008, 10:34 PM
What a great article from the independent. Beautifully written and bang on the money. Well done Thomas Sutcliffe :)

Rj Mac
22nd August 2008, 10:57 PM
The program just aired on BBC Scotland this evening, and I found the attidude of the representitives of the KC, and some of the breeders interviewed absolutely disgusting, what rite do these people have to play god on their terms!!!!!!

Thank goodness for the kindhearted and dedicated decent breeders and people involved trying to buck these trends, and improve the prospects for dogs in the future,

R.

NeimaLennon
22nd August 2008, 11:01 PM
If they love this breed and love their animals why do they breed knowing the pain and harm they are putting the poor pooches through. I let my bitch have a litter I didnt want her missing out. I am not going to name the breeder in question but i used basically my bitches cousin not knowing what i know now after watching pedigree exposed. We lost the whole litter. I then found out my bitch has diabetes and when i told the breeder who's stud i used basically after that when i contacted her about my dog for advice on what tests i needed to put him to stud i never received a reply. I am horrifically shocked that they said that on the programme they didnt need stud tests on most breeds only 3 on a specific breed and i didnt see cavaliers mentioned. I always thought that cavs needed hip scoring heart tests eye tests and to be tested for sm before breeding them. I have never went with it as at the end of the day they are my babies and not money making machines. I smooch them as do alot of owners to death they are spoilt rotten and i treat them like they are kids and speak to them in that way. I am just horrified that things are not as rigid as i had thought on testing methods. I am now thinking that if my bitches dad had diabetes skin problems and heart problems then so did the sire to the litter she had illness problems, well genetic defaults rather. Which then would mean that two parents with genetic defaults. No wonder her litter did not survive. Getting blinded by someone who you believe knows what is best being a breeder etc and seeing what i seen tonight i am in utter disbelief.:eek:

Daisy's Mom
22nd August 2008, 11:27 PM
If that BIS breeder woman sells another puppy or receives another stud fee in her lifetime, I would be appalled. If I were her, I would seriously stay in my home the rest of my life now that the world knows the level of ethics she holds (which is exactly none). Or else I would stop dying my hair blonde and wear dark glasses whenever I was out in public, in hopes that no one would recognize me. That was truly sickening. She should be barred not only from breeding dogs, but even from owning them if she is that stupid or that careless about causing animals pain.

I hope karma bites her in her a@@, big-time.

I did finally watch the documentary on youtube and of course I agree with what everyone else has said -- it is upsetting and appalling that these people put themselves up as ethical breeders of any kind, and some of them freely admit their actions as if they were perfectly reasonable. I, too, cried when I saw the boxer and how his owners tried to deal with his afflictions.

And that woman who complained that the new, young vets wouldn't kill her perfectly healthy puppies anymore? There are no words. I'd like to clobber her upside the head for being morally bankrupt.

I agree with the point of the whole documentary -- we have just gone way too far purely in the name of human vanity. If an an entire breed of dogs has been so intentionally messed with that none of them can reproduce on their own, you know something is very wrong. And if you are killing perfectly healthy puppies because they don't have a line down their back, then that's just evil, especially given that the ridge is a sign that they are, in fact, NOT likely to be healthy.

Juniors Daddy
22nd August 2008, 11:56 PM
hiya everyone ive read most of the threads here and its such a warm feeling knowing you are all true dog lovers shame about some ... im a no nonsence security manager and bouncer and im not very emotional but that programme nearly brought me to tears..it felt like my heart kept been ripped out seeing these little things taken for granted for the pleasure of the idiots that use animals as buissness. i thought the interveiwer was fantastic. she cracked it when she asked the chairman about inbreeding and made an example of him and his daughter breeding ...its all the same isnt it? ..his face was a picture as he refused and claimed it was different:rolleyes: idiot

chloe92us
23rd August 2008, 01:17 AM
I'm sure all breeders begin because they love the dogs. However, in life, things you feel strongly for and have devoted your life to, can sometimes lose their importance. I see this all the time; people change careers, move to a completely new city, need a new project, have affairs...it's because the thing they are doing NOW, which at one time made them happy, no longer does. You just plug along and do what you do, not because you like it, but because that's what you've always done. I think this is what has happened to a lot of the breeders shown on the documentary.

I guess what I'm trying to say is WE as pet owners cannot understand the mentality of (some) breeders and never will. Dogs are our LOVE. Dogs are their LIVING. Dogs are our friends. Dogs are their BUSINESS.

Overall, I thought the film brought good points to light and there truly needs to be some reform and more health-based restrictions. But I also wanted to share my thoughts. Doesn't make anything that was shown on the program less grotesque, but it is a reality in MOST "agricultural" areas; livestock, poultry, etc. It is just so much more personal because after all; dogs are man's best friend, and Cavaliers are ours. I will say I was offended by the Nazi/ dog breeding analogy.

Visitor
23rd August 2008, 02:22 AM
I am just a visitor here, but I can't tell you how heartened I am to have read your responses, and the overwhelming support for the owners and breeders who have been brave enough to speak out about the need for urgent reforms. The very best of luck to all of you.

coconut
24th August 2008, 04:06 PM
i finally got to watch the programme on friday night as i had it record to say that i cried my eyes out is an understatement, mark could not even watch it!!! i cannot believe the KC don't actually require health checks, there was one of they reps on that programme and i am sorry but i really just wanted to kick him in the face with his smile thinking it was great that the health problems were still there even thou some people where health screening!

Also cannot believe that, that ladies dog won the highest show in the Uk and has SM and she like it sire 30 litters that is there, as the women who was giving out about it!!! You could see claire's face when they told her that she had let the dog sire litters!

Also i could not believe about the Rhodesian Ridgebacks , i was so upset and could not believe that healthy puppys could be PTS!!

Karlin
24th August 2008, 09:06 PM
This article is on the UK Cavaliers website, and is very insightful on linebreeding and the problems it can cause in later generations as it quotes the woman widely credited with founding the modern CKCS, thw woman who bred the dog on which the breed standard is based, Ann's Son, Mrs Pitt:


as Mrs. A. Pitt the founder of the Cavalier Breed said in a Cavalier magazine here in Britain in 1957 no thought had been given as to the future health of the Cavaliers, because the breeders at that time were in-breeding over and over again to the same stud dogs. 1 do know that there were Cavaliers dying of heart trouble in the 1950's whether from M.V.D that will never be known, but quite a number of those Cavaliers were the result of in-bred pedigree backgrounds. Is this the reason why around 50% of the Cavaliers in Britain have heart murmurs by the age of 5 years of age? It's even worse in Canada where 50% have heart murmurs by 4 years age.


Since those faulty genes could have come down through the generations because of close/line breeding I suppose those figures will be much the same in America because in breeding would have taken place to get the Cavalier breed established


What this means is that for Britain 41 % of Cavaliers will be carriers of heart murmur genes and around 9% of Cavaliers will be clear of those faulty genes.

[snip]

Is this now the time for Cavalier breeders, for the future of the breed, to bite the bullet in order to widen the genetic pool of Cavaliers and start using Cavaliers for breeding that are not winning in the Show Ring?


I have been collecting quite a few hundred pedigrees of Cavaliers who have died at a young age, 5-7 years from heart trouble, mainly from Cavalier Pet Owners, like ourselves over the years and very few Cavalier Breeders in Britain can say they've had no heart trouble in their lines

One of many, many key articles written by Bet Hargreaves, who has campaigned for years for better heart health in the breed. She wrote this in 2000. :)

http://www.cavaliers.co.uk/articles/articlelonglived.htm

Cathy Moon
24th August 2008, 11:11 PM
Bet's article, written in 2000, says 50% of cavaliers in UK had heart murmurs by the age of 5 years, and in Canada 50% of cavaliers had heart murmurs by the age of 4 years. Have these numbers improved?

Karlin
24th August 2008, 11:30 PM
This is from the 2008 Animal Health Trust/UK Kennel Club report for 2008:


Mitral valve disease (MVD) is the most common cardiac disorder in the dog. It is most commonly found in small to medium sized dogs and the prevalence in the CKCS is especially high. If mitral regurgitation occurs, the most prominent clinical finding is a systolic heart murmur.

Some studies have shown that approximately 50% of dogs of this breed have developed a murmur by 5-6 years of age, and by the age of 10 years most dogs are affected. MVD in other dog breeds also becomes increasingly prevalent as dogs get older, but it occurs in the CKCS at a much younger age. One study found approximately 19% of CKCS under 1 year of age had a heart murmur, and the incidence of MVD in males is significantly higher than that in females.

The results of the Purebred Dog Health Survey for Cavalier King Charles Spaniels indicated that cardiac disease was by far the most frequently reported cause of death in the breed, accounting for nearly 43% of all deaths. Taking into account non-fatal disease conditions, cardiac disease accounted for nearly 25% of all illness in the CKCS.

Cathy Moon
24th August 2008, 11:35 PM
Thanks for that info.

Do you know if the Dutch, Canadian, and US clubs have better statistics than UK? And if so, did they all follow the same MVD protocol?

Karlin
24th August 2008, 11:44 PM
I believe they are all basically the same.

babs
25th August 2008, 08:08 PM
Ive just watched the "programme" on you tube last night.I have to say that Ive never been so upset,horrified and annoyed after watching a tv show.how can those people live with themselves.Before we became a pet owner Id never heard of SM,but now I know just enough to see how horriffic the pain and discomfort that people can put dogs through and for them not realise,sorry they do realise the detrimental affects they put our dogs through but couldnt be bothered about the next generation of our little darlings.As for the woman who won the top award for her cav.She should be banned from ever being a pet owner again..Has the woman any consideration for the future of her top dogs puppies,grandchildren eh its not fair on our pets,on us as pet owners and the future generations of our Cavaliers and all other breeds.Money is the root of all evil as they say.:mad:

Brian M
25th August 2008, 09:11 PM
Hi

If i can pls add a comment ,as stated prior i have three girls who like us all worship the ground they walk on and try to give them the best that i can in all things IE vet care, pet ins ,food etc they re 2 , 1 1/2, and 1 so i have no experience at all with either SM or MVD apart from reading everything i can from all your posts on the forum ,as i have no experience with these problems i have probably taken the wrong attitude and been a wimp by choosing not to view this BBC programme and in effect to not worry myself stiff (head in the sand) but to fully enjoy my girls in the good health they are in now and to face any future problems with the help of the best insurance pet policy i can now find and the with the strength ,support and knowledge that i know i will receive from all forum members .I do make a monthly donation to Dogs trust and CPL and also little Norris and now i shall include one to SM Research i hope doing this my way will help in some small way for my girls and everybody elses dogs, it seems the best thing i can do for now.
And my last request is a big wish that due to legal reasons i know cannot be granted but i shall ask the questions any way but pls realize i am just a cav owner and an animal lover so when all you knowledgeable people make comments about all the good breeders that you know who they are and the same with all these nasty inbreeding bad breeders my only point is i haven't a clue who you are talking about ,so if i did require another pup it would be so nice to know who are the goodies and who are the baddies ,so my question you cant answer is.
1) Who are the goodies
2) Who are the baddies ,apart from the kc

pm accepted though

Best Wishes
Brian
.

Cathy Moon
25th August 2008, 10:37 PM
Brian, I'm sure that the moderators here will be happy to refer you to a few cavalier breeders in the UK who have an excellent approach to health testing and who are respectful toward pet owners.

Karlin
25th August 2008, 11:13 PM
I am very concerned about a private email that is being widely crossposted by a health rep to a large CKCS club in the UK -- which publicly raises doubts about the professional capabilities of one of the most eminent neurologists in the UK, Mr Geoff Skerritt, and his abilities to produce and interpret an MRI. The email is written by a human rheumatologist in Australia (without veterinary background). It was Mr Skerritt who did the MRI on the Malvern stud dog. He has also done more MRIs for club breeders than any other single neurologist in the UK, at discount and often at club request, very deep discounts for special regional club screening days.

I am sure some of you have seen this email. The doctor who wrote the email also claimed that people should not be overly concerned at high rates of the malformation in cavaliers because the Chairi 1 malformation in humans is actually 'common' anyway.

Such a claim is extraordinary. So I tried to find out this doctor's background to be able to make such claims. He turns out to be an elderly, human rheumatologist in Australia, without any vet background, who hasn't published in his area in 30 years (going from what comes up on the publication indexes, a few papers in the late 60s and 70s).

In contrast, Mr Skerritt is well recognised in the UK as a pioneer of veterinary imaging. He is author of the textbook 'Handbook of Veterinary MRI' and RCVS Fellow and Recognised Specialist in Veterinary Neurology, Diplomate of the European College of Veterinary Neurology; he is a former President of the ECVN and current Chairman of the RCVS Small Animal Surgery and Fellowship Boards.

On the 'commoness' of Chiari 1 in humans: current research estimates likely human occurrence at 1:1200 (this figure is widely available from current published articles) -- or 0.08% of the human population, which is in medical circles definitely considered 'rare'. If only 1% of cavaliers have the malformation, then the cavalier rate is 12 times that of the human population. If it is, say, the 85% Geoff Skerritt has predicted, it is 1200 times the rate of human affectedness.

Or put it another way -- the ACKCSC's own breed health survey in 2005 came back with an MRI-diagnosed level of SM of 4% at that time, which would of course be very low compared to all the study populations so far. Nonetheless, 4% is a level that Prof Larry Glickman, head of Purdue vet school, at that time termed worryingly high compared to the the normal dog population and caused him to mark the condition as an increasing breed concern.

So, even if all the ongoing research is radically wrong and the level is actually down near the breed survey, the level would still be approaching 1 in 20 cavaliers, which to most people is not rare. That is an SM rate of 1:22, compared to the 'common' 1:1200 incidence of Chiari 1 malformation in humans. Which surely means the SM ratio, by comparison, is extremely common in cavaliers?

I have suggested that it is a very serious matter indeed for all club breeders who have had dogs MRId if the health representative of a major UK CKCS club is allowing Mr Skerritt's professional bona fides to be openly challenged and that this surely requires some sort of adjudication, perhaps by a neutral panel of radiologists and neurologists which the club and KC themselves proposed be established recently to view MRIs. Alternatively Mr Skerritt should be allowed to offer and defend his reading of that MRI publicly?

inca
25th August 2008, 11:14 PM
devestating wasn;t it we sat and cryed even though we have known about it for years it was still very sad to see it

i just hope anyone buying a puppy askes a million questions and insists on health screening .

Cathy Moon
25th August 2008, 11:41 PM
I am very concerned about a private email that is being widely crossposted by a health rep to a large CKCS club in the UK -- which publicly raises doubts about the professional capabilities of one of the most eminent neurologists in the UK, Mr Geoff Skerritt, and his abilities to produce and interpret an MRI. The email is written by a human rheumatologist in Australia (without veterinary background). It was Mr Skerritt who did the MRI on the Malvern stud dog. He has also done more MRIs for club breeders than any other single neurologist in the UK, at discount and often at club request, very deep discounts for special regional club screening days.

I am sure some of you have seen this email. The doctor who wrote the email also claimed that people should not be overly concerned at high rates of the malformation in cavaliers because the Chairi 1 malformation in humans is actually 'common' anyway.

Such a claim is extraordinary. So I tried to find out this doctor's background to be able to make such claims. He turns out to be an elderly, human rheumatologist in Australia, without any vet background, who hasn't published in his area in 30 years (going from what comes up on the publication indexes, a few papers in the late 60s and 70s).

In contrast, Mr Skerritt is well recognised in the UK as a pioneer of veterinary imaging. He is author of the textbook 'Handbook of Veterinary MRI' and RCVS Fellow and Recognised Specialist in Veterinary Neurology, Diplomate of the European College of Veterinary Neurology; he is a former President of the ECVN and current Chairman of the RCVS Small Animal Surgery and Fellowship Boards.

On the 'commoness' of Chiari 1 in humans: current research estimates likely human occurrence at 1:1200 (this figure is widely available from current published articles) -- or 0.08% of the human population, which is in medical circles definitely considered 'rare'. If only 1% of cavaliers have the malformation, then the cavalier rate is 12 times that of the human population. If it is, say, the 85% Geoff Skerritt has predicted, it is 1200 times the rate of human affectedness.

Or put it another way -- the ACKCSC's own breed health survey in 2005 came back with an MRI-diagnosed level of SM of 4% at that time, which would of course be very low compared to all the study populations so far. Nonetheless, 4% is a level that Prof Larry Glickman, head of Purdue vet school, at that time termed worryingly high compared to the the normal dog population and caused him to mark the condition as an increasing breed concern.

So, even if all the ongoing research is radically wrong and the level is actually down near the breed survey, the level would still be approaching 1 in 20 cavaliers, which to most people is not rare. That is an SM rate of 1:22, compared to the 'common' 1:1200 incidence of Chiari 1 malformation in humans. Which surely means the SM ratio, by comparison, is extremely common in cavaliers?

I have suggested that it is a very serious matter indeed for all club breeders who have had dogs MRId if the health representative of a major UK CKCS club is allowing Mr Skerritt's professional bona fides to be openly challenged and that this surely requires some sort of adjudication, perhaps by a neutral panel of radiologists and neurologists which the club and KC themselves proposed be established recently to view MRIs. Alternatively Mr Skerritt should be allowed to offer and defend his reading of that MRI publicly?
I'm trying to understand how this could happen. I wouldn't think any doctor would put himself/herself in this position!:eek:

Karlin
25th August 2008, 11:45 PM
Presumably he OK'd the message being crossposted if it was so widely done. :confused: The message and its context will be forwarded to Mr Skerritt though as I know he would be quite alarmed.

Cathy Moon
26th August 2008, 12:09 AM
This is unbelievable in a way. A rheumatologist in Australia - how would the MRI land in his hands...:confused:

Ciren
26th August 2008, 12:16 AM
depends, could the KC afford the postage?

(i won't apologise for my cynicism but feel free to delete message if its a problem)

Cathy Moon
26th August 2008, 12:29 AM
depends, could the KC afford the postage?

(i won't apologise for my cynicism but feel free to delete message if its a problem)That is a funny answer, but really it's a serious matter and very odd.

Ciren
26th August 2008, 12:31 AM
erm i wasnt trying to be funney.

what better way to muddy the waters even more than have another doc turn up and rubbish the facts.

Arlene
26th August 2008, 01:10 AM
Karlin wrote:

"I am very concerned about a private email that is being widely crossposted by a health rep to a large CKCS club in the UK -- which publicly raises doubts about the professional capabilities of one of the most eminent neurologists in the UK, Mr Geoff Skerritt, and his abilities to produce and interpret an MRI."

Thank you Karlin for speaking to this. My jaw is dropped and I have yet to pick it up to think about what to say. I am incensed with some of what I am reading by those caring for our breed in response and reaction to this program, which in my eyes was a call to action and no threat to truly caring breeders whatsoever. I come back to this list to enjoy posts by people with compassion for our pets.

Arlene and her three: J P - Siberian Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel mix, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier.

Karlin
26th August 2008, 11:36 AM
I have proposed the disputed MRI be given to a neutral panel to read as it is intolerable that Geoff Skerritt's reputation to do and read an MRI be called into question. He has done over 600 of them on cavaliers in the past decade and been a frequent presenter at seminars on the condition to the UK CKCS clubs, at their own request. If a health representative for a prominent club is openly circulating such an email, and thus questioning his work when so many breeders depend on its quality, then the club must resolve the issue now that Dr Ingpen's email has been crossposted around the world.

Karlin
26th August 2008, 11:37 AM
Press release today from Geoffrey Clifton-Brown:


GEOFFREY CLIFTON-BROWN CALLS FOR ACTION ON PEDIGREE DOG BREEDING

The plight of dogs suffering from genetic disorders caused through pedigree dog breeding was demonstrated in a recent BBC One Documentary titled “Pedigree Dogs Exposed”.

The programme was deeply critical of the current set up of the Kennel Club and dog shows, in particular their insistence on breeding traits into pedigree dogs which can have painful and life threatening consequences on the dogs. The MP has been highly critical of the Kennel Club’s complete disregard for the animals suffering.

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown MP was pleased to see Carol Fowler from Gloucestershire, whose appearance came as a culmination of a number of years of pressure after she became aware of the genetic disorder syringomyelia, which affects Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, the breed of dog she owns.

Throughout her journey Mr Clifton-Brown has offered all assistance he could to Carol. This has included meeting with officials from the Kennel Club, leading animal welfare vets and scientists in the House of Lords organised by the Companion Animal Welfare Council and with senior officials from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs who have responsibility for animal welfare concerns.

Commenting on the programme the MP said “it clearly showed the persistent criticism and ridicule that Carol has faced from breeders who have a vested interest in seeing the current status quo maintained.”

“However, I know Carol to be a hugely determined lady and I will continue to assist her in persuading the Government that they must act now to change the culture of pedigree dog breeding and showing in this country. It is only if this occurs that the unnecessary suffering of our innocent canine companions can be avoided”

The MP will be writing to the Rt Hon the Lord Rooker, the Minister in charge of Animal Welfare to encourage him to watch the programme and to arrange a meeting with Carol and himself to discuss the future of pedigree dog breeding in the UK.

Karlin
26th August 2008, 01:12 PM
Ah! I also see that Dr Ingpen's wife is a breeder of cavaliers in Australia. :cool:

Cathy Moon
26th August 2008, 02:22 PM
This info answers one question.

Still don't understand why any doctor would put himself/herself in this position.

frecklesmom
26th August 2008, 06:12 PM
Dr. Ingpen's letter aside-can't say what I'd like to say about supposed professional attacking professionalism of another medical person

This site is a blog by a new vet and speaks well to what that person sees in the clinic and, I thought, good observations of the program on BBC

http://vetinharness.vox.com/library/posts/page/1/

Davy
26th August 2008, 10:42 PM
Kennel Club answers back

http://www.webchats.tv/chats/Petcare/wwwthekennelcluborguk/


Following the recent BBC programme Pedigree Dogs Exposed, the Kennel club would like to clear up any negative impressions of pedigree dog breeding and suggestions that the dog community is doing little or nothing to improve the health of UK pedigree dogs.


The majority of pedigree dogs in the UK are healthy and the Kennel Club increasingly has in place checks to monitor health issues going forward. In those dogs where there are problems, including those highlighted in the documentary, they have been and will continue to work with breeders to improve long term health through the development of tests and screening programmes.

If you are a pedigree dog lover and have any concerns or questions, then join our webchat to find out how Kennel Club health initiatives such as the introduction of the Accredited Breeder Scheme and research funding can help promote healthy breading across pedigree breeds.

Caroline Kisko, Kennel Club Secretary and Jeff Sampson, Canine Geneticist joins us live online on 27th August at 12pm to answer your questions and dispel fears over pedigree dog breeding.

Can't wait to see what questions make it through

Karlin
26th August 2008, 11:29 PM
Frecklesmom, thanks for that great link.

This is so true. There are many parts to creating change, and the puppy-buying public has a major role, too :) :


Genetic diseases will become easier to manage as genetic testing, and other detection programmes, become more widely available for these conditions. It will then come down to the puppy-buying public to demand these assurances of breeders to whom they are handing over large sums of money, and to decline to take pups from breeders who have not, or will not, screen their breeding animals for these harmful conditions. And it will come down to the veterinary world, the RSPCA, and others, to educate the public on the reasons to make these demands of the breeders from whom they buy dogs. Good progress has already been made with hip and elbow dysplasia in the retriever breeds, but there is still a long way to go with other conditions.

The causes and solutions of these issues are certainly complex and interrelated, and require action from a combination of the Kennel Club, dog breeders, and the puppy-buying public if we are going to see the necessary improvements in the health of the pedigree dogs in this country. It may very well be that, sadly, some breeds have been bred beyond the point of no return, with their genetic variability now so low as a consequence of inbreeding that the variability to re-create a sound, healthy dog has simply been lost. However in most cases I think there should still be hope, if action can be taken quickly and effectively by all concerned. My fear is that the Kennel Club and breeders will be far too stuck in their ways and wedded to their flawed orthodoxy to react in time.

I see pedigree dogs every so often who could only be described as genetic, health and temperament train-wrecks. And, yes, my heart falls when I see the name of one of our (thankfully few) lunatic dog breeders on my consulting list. On a positive note, I see happy, healthy pedigree puppies who grow into happy, healthy adult dogs every day, greatly loved by their human families.

What I would love more than anything would be to see the monopoly the Kennel Club has on pedigree dog registration in this country challenged, and an alternative registry introduced, divorced from the showing world, and placing an absolute priority on the temperament, health, and welfare of the animals it represents. Perhaps...

Arlene
26th August 2008, 11:51 PM
It is well said that the pet buying public have a role in this, but as informed as they can be and as much as they ask and see health testing completed, inbreeding depression has to be addressed by the kennel clubs, registries and breeders. The public can hardly influence that unless we want to teach them all about COI, risiks of higher and lower COI values, and how to read pedigrees.

I think COI alone, linebreeding and inbreeding are very important, yet too complicated to educate on specifically in a short documentary.

Arlene and her three:)

Margaret C
27th August 2008, 01:05 AM
Kennel Club answers back

http://www.webchats.tv/chats/Petcare/wwwthekennelcluborguk/



Can't wait to see what questions make it through

I have just posted the question below. I hope everyone possible will try & post a question. It may not get answered but it will get read by someone at the KC & is another chance to show that there is a strong demand for things to change.
Tomorrow I will ask about making parents health tests mandatory before registration.

"In Cavaliers it seems that about 75% of KC registered litters are bred by people who are not breed club members.
That is approximately 8,000 puppies bred by owners who do not have any guaranteed access to information about mitral valve disease, syringomyelia and eye problems.
Will the KC now consider sending out relevant health information, to all breeds, when they send out registration papers,
It is about time some attempt was made to prove KC registration is a mark of quality"

Margaret C

frecklesmom
27th August 2008, 01:15 AM
And I, pardon the cynicism, cannot wait to see how definitive the answers will be or will they be more of the KC blah,blah,blah...

babs
27th August 2008, 02:25 AM
It seems the KC rathers "quantity as opposed to quality"

sins
27th August 2008, 09:09 AM
Has the Irish cavalier club made any comment about this programme ?
Sins

Nicki
27th August 2008, 10:33 AM
Question submitted :)

Thanking you for alerting us to this Margaret - will be very interested to see the answers....

Karlin
27th August 2008, 12:02 PM
UK Neurologist Geoff Skerritt has said he feels he has the right of reply to the email from Dr Ingpen criticising the quality of his MRIs on the Malvern dog (and thus by implication questioning a diagnosis of syringomyelia referred to on Pedigree Dogs Exposed).

The email was posted widely by the health representative to the Southern CKCS Club, Veronica Hull, who referred to the email as "fascinating and balanced" and Dr Ingpen as an 'unbiased' source ("a true perspective from an unbiased source who has expertise in this subject"). Dr Ingpen, it turns out, is married to a cavalier breeder in Australia who is also listed as their puppy referral contact. Dr Ingpen is also a human rheumatologist without veterinary background. Veronica Hull is the breeder who is questioned amongst the group of women at the very end of the BBC film.

This is the portion of his email that Geoff Skerritt is responding to:


6. Whilst in the UK in 2007 I was invited to examine a number of MRI images
relating to this problem. There was one which was clearly diagnostic and it
is my understanding that the breeder took responsible action. I also had the
opportunity to view the MRI referred to in the BBC programme. I think the
images were poor, inadequate and certainly not diagnostic anatomically.

There is no doubt that the problem has to be looked at seriously but in my
view at least the evidence available does not support the propaganda. I
sometimes wonder which 'bitch is on the end of the lead'.

Geoff Skerritt's response:


Dear All,

Thank-you for your support. I am surprised by the impertinence of this man! Considering that I lectured in veterinary anatomy for 20 years, pioneered veterinary MRI, was a founder of the European College of Veterinary Neurology and currently have one of the largest caseloads of veterinary MRI in the world, it is surprising that a man with no applicable qualifications should think that he knows more than I about a study that has occupied me for 10 years. The many students that I have examined would find Dr Ingpen's questioning of my ability most amusing. Much of my early work, including publications and presentations, were with Charlie Davies, Consultant Neurosurgeon at the Preston Hospital (human!) allowing parallel study of Chiari in human patients.

Dr Ingpen should know that the best MRI material for interpretation is on the VDU of the scanner -- my reports are so-based. Original hardcopy film is OK but any other reproduction is for illustrative purposes only. I don't know which films he thought he saw but it sounds as if he needs some lessons in basic interpretation.

I have viewed about 1000 scans of Cavaliers ---- I think I know what I am looking at! On both T1 and T2 weighted images there can be little doubt about the presence of syringomyelia; enlarged lateral ventricles are often obvious but I have always conceded that they can be present as a completely separate entity. The most difficult feature to assess is herniation of the cerebellum into/through the foramen magnum; however, if you compare likely abnormals with definite normals ( the same and other breeds ) caudal protrusion of the vermis ( not the tonsils of the human patient ) is clear but you must be able to identify the bone of the occiput ( not easy since it is black not white as on a radiograph ).

I would appreciate an apology, Dr Ingpen.

Regards

Geoff Skerritt

*Pauline*
27th August 2008, 12:21 PM
The email was posted widely by the health representative to the Southern CKCS Club, Veronica Hull, who referred to the email as "fascinating and balanced" Dr Ingpen as an 'unbiased' source ("a true perspective from an unbiased source who has expertise in this subject"). Dr Ingpen, it turns out, is married to a cavalier breeder in Australia who is also listed as their puppy referral contact. Dr Ingpen is also a human rheumatologist without veterinary background. Veronica Hull is the breeder who is questioned amongst the group of women at the very end of the BBC film.

Can't tell you how much this has annoyed me. She should know better. I wonder if next time one of her dogs is ill she'll be taking it to the Rheumatology dept. of Southend Hospital.

HollyDolly
28th August 2008, 10:00 PM
I emailed Dr Ingpen and asked him some questions re his statement. Firstly I asked him if the scan was of such poor quality which he said it was why did he not suggest to this breeder that the dog be re scanned, after all good money is paid out and to get a poor quality scan it is not realy good enough, Dr Ingpen did not answer this question. I also wanted to know how he had managed to view this scan as the breeder had stated that the scan had never left her home, his reply was "viewed scan in breeders home":bang: I shall leave that with your own thoughts.

As many of you will know on The CKCS website there is a list of MRI scanned dogs who I now know to be clear of SM, if the breeder of the Best In show at Malvern was clear of SM would he not be on this site, I can safely say he is not. Having a Champion dog clear of SM one would want to shout it from the rooftops.


HollyDolly,

Cassie, Holly and Gusscavtiny

HollyDolly
28th August 2008, 10:02 PM
I emailed Dr Ingpen and asked him some questions re his statement. Firstly I asked him if the scan was of such poor quality which he said it was why did he not suggest to this breeder that the dog be re scanned, after all good money is paid out and to get a poor quality scan it is not realy good enough, Dr Ingpen did not answer this question. I also wanted to know how he had managed to view this scan as the breeder had stated that the scan had never left her home, his reply was "viewed scan in breeders home":bang: I shall leave that with your own thoughts. I also thought his comment at the end of which Bitch was on the end of the lead totally uncalled for but hey I am the Terrier at the end of this lead.

As many of you will know on The CKCS website there is a list of MRI scanned dogs who I now know to be clear of SM, if the breeder of the Best In show at Malvern was clear of SM would he not be on this site, I can safely say he is not. Having a Champion dog clear of SM one would want to shout it from the rooftops.


HollyDolly,

Cassie, Holly and Gusscavtiny

Karlin
28th August 2008, 10:26 PM
That isn't quite the case. The list on the CKCS Club site in the UK is a list of scanned dogs; any dog that has been scanned, regardless of result, can be listed. :thmbsup:

babs
28th August 2008, 11:04 PM
Having a CKCS free of SM,Yes we would shout it from the rooftops.Showing or non showing!

sins
28th August 2008, 11:11 PM
I've been reading a lot of the old threads about scans and it seems many people have booked their dogs for scan through their various cavalier clubs. who then arranged block bookings.For those who are not members of cavalier clubs or pet owners with ill dogs, what has the experience been like accessing low cost scans?
Sins

babs
28th August 2008, 11:33 PM
This is all new to me being a first time pet{cav} owner.I dont know where to start to check if Alex might be a SM sufferer,I dont know the full logistics of SM and how to trace his genetics.How would I go about getting Alex tested for SM ?

Karlin
28th August 2008, 11:39 PM
Unless you suspect SM or a breeder there is really no point in MRIing -- it costs over €1000 to do it in Dublin. It also involves a general anaesthetic.

The possible signs are all on my website, www.smcavalier.com. A vet needs first to check for all the other possibilities before you would ever even consider an MRI. You can't check a dog genetically at present for SM. Good breeders give a 5 generation pedigree with their dogs. That's the only way to check families but most lines are believed to b affected anyway as carriers and really very little can be told from a pedigree -- you need to have scanned dogs in the pedigree and ideally know how related dogs have scanned.

Sins you can do a low cost scan in the UK last I checked. You can call any of the centres and ask about them. The prices are a bit higher though. When I went over it was less to do three or more dogs than to do one or two.

By the time you pay ferry and a hotel plus gas (I don't think it is possible to do the ferry in a day as the centres often are running late) it may be close to the same cost to do a single dog in Dublin given the time it takes. If you are going to the UK anyway then it is worthwhile.

sins
28th August 2008, 11:57 PM
I have another few months to decide on where to scan as Daisy is only 21 months old.I understand the vet college charge between €1000 - €1200 for the scan and there's a clinic in Cork who are considering purchasing an MRI scanner but my vet reckons pricewise there won't be much difference!
I think we should consider getting together a small group of us and try and negotiate a price for having a number of dogs done on the same day.
Vet also recommends booking well in advance as there may be quite a waiting time in vet college.
If I travel to England then I have the worry of bringing back an anaesthetised dog who may be sick en route....I really don't want to traumatise her.I know most dogs are fine after anaesthetic but I had one post neuter male cavalier( remember Rocky Karlin?) who barfed for almost 48 hours..
Sins

Karlin
29th August 2008, 12:09 AM
Skerritt uses a sedative rather than GA but he is the only one I think who does this. Mine just slept the whole trip back.

Getting a number of people's dogs scanned is really something to organise with breeders, maybe through the IKC -- pet owners don't really have a need to scan unless they are doing it for diagnosis but then, they'd probably not be waiting.

sins
29th August 2008, 12:15 AM
True! Anyway that's something to think about at a later date.
At the moment I'd happily sell her to a travelling circus, she's definitely in heat and eating the entire contents of my home:cry*ing:
Sins

Ashley
29th August 2008, 01:29 PM
Sins,
I had pretty much considered the same as you... getting both of my dogs MRI'd. I knew that it could detect something and let me catch it early, or it could show nothing and I'd have to do another one at a later stage. The cost wasnt my concern (well, wasnt my main concern)... it was more about the GA. I decided not to get them done until they are maybe showing any symptoms... which :xfngr: they are not as yet!

Karlin
29th August 2008, 10:42 PM
Honestly, I think as with any breed-related health issue, it makes more sense to just be familiar with symptoms and watch for those rather than MRI just to MRI. Almost all MRIs are going to show the malformation and many will show syrinxes depending on the age of the dog. If a dog isn't showing symptoms of any kind, there really is nothing to treat. :thmbsup:

However if anyone does MRI or has MRId, and has a dog with a pedigree, this information is very valuable to researchers, both Clare Rusbridge and Sarah Blott. PM me if you want contact details.

sins
29th August 2008, 10:52 PM
One of my daughter's friends is staying the weekend and her mother stayed for a chat. She told me that her sister who has two cavaliers(one has one eye and the other has the longest legs I've seen on any cavalier)is being given a pedigree male dog with papers for nothing and that she's planning to breed them.
I sat her down and made her watch the first ten minutes and the last ten minutes of the programme and her mouth was open in shock.
Breeding programme abandoned!!
One wonders why you'd give away a healthy male cavalier:rolleyes:
I hasten to add that these are not unscrupulous people,not greedy or cruel to animals....just a couple who innocently think how sweet it would be to have cavalier puppies.....

Cathy T
29th August 2008, 11:04 PM
Good for you Sins!!

sins
29th August 2008, 11:09 PM
What really struck home was the lady with the B&T saying how her vet bills were over £40K. That's quite a sobering thought for any dog owner.
Sins

pagan
30th August 2008, 07:17 PM
does anyone know the pedigree of the blenheim dog that won at Malvern.?If so could i have a copy .I think it was disgusting breeding cavaliers knowing that the dog carries a health defect.The woman is only interested in money .And to put healthy pups down is crazy too ,I think we should compile pedigrees of dogs with these conditions.

Karlin
30th August 2008, 07:28 PM
The researchers already have compiled over 10,000 pedigrees going back decades. What those show is that at this point the genes for CM/SM are almost certainly in every line, internationally. There are certain combinations that seem to be more likely to cause SM to be symptomatic --eg cause more pain -- but simply looking at a pedigree with no understanding of what is likely the complex nature of inheritance is not advisable -- better to understand whether that dog has related dogs with SM or is producing puppies with SM. Nonetheless common sense would dictate that AS WITH MVD you do not breed dogs that either are symptomatic and/or test poorly for the condition to hand (with SM, have a poor scan, regardless of symptoms). Eg with MVD, even if a dog does not show signs of heart failure, if it has a murmur before age 5 you do not breed that dog!! A long accepted approach and advocated by the breed clubs but not enforced or required. And -- if you look at the pedigrees of some of the dogs winning championsips including the Malvern BIS -- an awful lot of top ranked dogs from many well known breeders and lines, even some breeders who are club committee members as well -- are being used for breeding but have been bred OUTSIDE the MVD protocol -- eg at under 30 months of age, at which point the dog needs a cardio test and both parents should have cardiac certs. Otherwise the dog shouldn't be bred until 5 years old. The evidence is all there in the online databases.

Pedigrees for dogs are easily available using the kennel (show) name at these pedigree databases online. On those, you can see when a dog was born. You can easily see parents are often only 12-20 months old or so at breeding time (subtract two months from the age of the dog to get its conception time and compare that to the age of the parents). The parents of the Malvern dog (http://www.cavaliers.co.uk/cgi-bin/breeding.pl?op=breeding&index=27600&gens=4&db=mybreed.dbw) were well under the MVD protocol. Check the puppy gazette and you can see the Malvern dog was used many times at stud at well under the MVD protocol (or do a 'reverse pedigree' search to see the same thing. This database (http://www.worldpedigrees.com/breedpages/xCavalier.aspx) offers even more litter results).

Online databases: http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=8896

So let's forget SM entirely for the moment. The MVD protocol has been around for a decade. The clubs -- and their health representatives -- have long advocated using this and tell puppy buyers to ONLY go to breeders who can show the proper heart clearances and where the parents are of appropriate age.

Yet these top winning dogs, who especially in the case of boys, may father hundreds of puppies -- are being bred by breeders who are NOT following the heart protocol, the most basic breeding protocol in the breed because MVD is the number one killer of the breed.

Think about it.

And please: ASK for certs the next time anyone buys a puppy and ASK for grandparents certs and CONFIRM the age of the parent dogs!! Walk away from any breeder who cannot produce cardiologist (not vet!) certs for both parent and grandparent generations and where the dogs are under the age of the MVD protocol.

Arlene
30th August 2008, 09:00 PM
May I add as well that some breeders are reluctant to follow the 30 month guideline for the girls, as it seems to be that whelping difficulties come along when a girl gets a little older before she is used, but there is absolutely no fathonable excuse for the use of a stud dog early.

Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier. :)

Arlene
30th August 2008, 09:03 PM
I should just say, in case that sounded wrong, that I don't put much stock in that excuse for the girls either. I just happen to have heard it A LOT.

Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier.:)

frecklesmom
30th August 2008, 09:21 PM
Does a breeding dogs age affect DNA or affect pups that are born ? I'm not referencing to MVD or SM, but am curious to the effect of aging on cells and how that influences offspring.

Cathy Moon
31st August 2008, 05:33 PM
There have been posts on other forums lately challenging the Rhodesian Ridgeback information on the BBC program.

Further evidence that dermoid sinuses are linked to the ridge -- there are many recent studies that back this from several prominent peer reviewed journals.

Quote:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16573760

J Small Anim Pract. 2006 Apr;47(4):184-8.
Autosomal dominant mutation causing the dorsal ridge predisposes for dermoid sinus in Rhodesian ridgeback dogs.

Hillbertz NH, Andersson G.
Department of Animal Breeding and Genetics, Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, Biomedical centre, Box 597, S-751 24 Uppsala, Sweden.

OBJECTIVES: To define the mode of inheritance of the dorsal ridge and investigate if the ridge predisposes to the congenital abnormality dermoid sinus in the Rhodesian ridgeback. METHODS: Segregation analysis was performed, including 87 litters (n=803) produced in Sweden between 1981 and 2002. Data were corrected to avoid bias in the segregation ratio. Chi-squared analysis was performed including 402 litters (n=359:cool: for the evaluation of a possible genetic correlation between the ridge and dermoid sinus. RESULTS: The ridge is inherited in an autosomal dominant mode and predisposes for dermoid sinus. The frequency of ridgeless offspring in the Swedish Rhodesian ridgeback population is estimated to be 5.6 per cent. CLINICAL SIGNIFICANCE: Rhodesian ridgeback dogs that carry the ridge trait are predisposed to dermoid sinus.

Cathy Moon
31st August 2008, 08:34 PM
Permission to cross post the Rhodesian Ridgeback study information in my last post is granted!

Pat
31st August 2008, 09:42 PM
Cathy,

Since I'm the person who questioned the accuracy of the RR statements in the program, I'm cross-posting here. Since I haven't seen the program but only have read comments from those who did see the program I don't know if the program reported that "the genes that predispose a RR to having a ridge also predispose a RR to develop dermoid sinus" or if the program said "the ridge in an RR is a form of spina bifida." The former statement appears to be true, the latter statement is not true. The difference may not be significant to many, but it is important to me as it speaks to the accurracy of the program. Here is my reply:
----------

Thanks, Anita for the info on the gene study. I am no expert on genetics, but the study seems to me to be saying that they have identified that the same genes that predispose the breed to the ridge also predispose the breed to the inherited health defect. I presume those genes are present in some combination in all RRs - those with and those without the ridge. This would mean that the breeders have some TOUGH decisions to make - whether to even continue "producing" the breed at all. I don't envy them if they have to figure out how to manipulate the genes so that they keep their breed as is visually and yet eliminate the health defect.

I still haven't seen the BBC program (my speakers are dead so I can't hear it until I replace them) but from some of the comments made, the program seemed to imply that:

Quote:
"The dogs with the ridge have a form of spina bifida and those without the ridge are the healthier dogs who they kill"

as several posts I've read have stated. It seems to me to be more complicated than that.

Of course I knew that dermoid sinus is related to spina bifida. I just couldn't grasp though that people had the idea that the actual ridge was "a form of spina bifida," i.e., the spinal cord was pushed out of the sheath to make the ridge stand up. That horrific thought is what led me to the vet texts to see if that was true, and I was relieved to read that it is not. Thus, my comments.

I see on Cavalier Talk that Cathy reported I am questioning the accuracy of the BBC piece, and the above is why. I am really anal about exact facts and misinterpretations such as the above. If I read an article or see a program and see that some of the statements aren't factual, red flags go up for me about the validity of the entire work. This is why I was the person who questioned the Murray Ingpen letter - there were quite a few red flags that caused me to investigate further.

This is also why I don't post a great deal - it takes me perhaps an hour to put a post together (this one took two hours) because I try to look at sources and verify before I make statements. I try to be pretty precise rather than generalize. Cathy said there are "many recent studies" about the RR - the two papers that you have presented seem to be related as there are at least eight names in common. Even though these two related papers are not "many" studies to my mind, the research looks valid to me and I now understand the point made by the BBC program about the problem in the breed. (Many studies to me would be more like the list that Laura reported about the incidence of SM/CM in Cavaliers or the studies on MVD in Cavaliers.) And of course the thought of culling puppies that don't meet the breed standard visually is pretty appalling, but I wasn't addressing that issue.

Pat

Cathy Moon
31st August 2008, 11:54 PM
Cathy, Since I'm the person who questioned the accuracy of the RR statements in the program, I'm cross-posting here.

Hi Pat, I visit several UK multiple-breed dog forums where this topic is being discussed, where I don't post but just read. I posted this information here in this forum, because I know the search engines like Google will index the information for searching in just a few short hours. Now if anyone is researching the topic, they will probably hit my post and they'll have permission to cross post. Please accept my apology if you think I was singling you out! I think very highly of you and was not addressing you specifically.

Karlin
1st September 2008, 12:04 AM
It would be worth watching that segment of the programme, Pat. the statement wasn't that blunt. It pointed out the irony that healthy puppies without the ridge are culled (and that this is in the UK breed standard as the proper approach to take! though at the moment the standard has been pulled from the KC website as 'under review') while puppies with the ridge, which is linked to the development of the health issue, are prized. Therefore puppies are selected for a cosmetic trait which can be linked to a serious health issue in the breed.

Breed clubs themselves (including the South African club) identify dermoid sinuses as similar to spinal bifida in humans:


What is a dermoid sinus?

Dermoid Sinus- condition similar to spina bifida in Humans the Puppy is born with the condition but shows no pain or symptoms. This condition is not visible and has to be felt for by the breeder under the skin. They are looking for a thin cord connecting the outside of the coat to the spine. The only way to remove a sinus is surgically and involves cutting away entire area to ensure no regrowth. If the sinus is not removed it can become infected. Our code advises these puppies to be put down by the vet

http://www.dogsvictoria.com.au/Clubs.asp?ClubID=293


Dermoid sinus is categorised as a "neural tube fusion defect (NTD)" by embryologists. When the neural groove, which runs longitudinally along what will be the back of the developing embryo, deepens and joins to form the new spinal cord and spinal column, the skin of the back also fuses in the midline and the spinal column and skin become completely separated. Partial failure of this process leads to dermoid sinus in the RR and human defects ranging from "dermal sinus" (an identical condition) to spina bifida occulta (hidden) to spina bifida cystica with serious paralysis. RRs do not exhibit this extreme form of NTD.

Or here: http://rrclubsa.com/a_health.htm

The Australian club notes that it is the norm to cull ridgeless puppies as well.


The Ridge - Some puppies are occasionally born without a ridge. As the ridge is the main feature of the breed it is common practice that these puppies are euthanased at birth.

:(

KR
1st September 2008, 01:00 AM
Hello,

it's me again the annoying semi-German. I don't really know where to write this as the thread has gone in another direction. I have been doing some thinking which is always dangerous.

I udnerstand totally that many people are upset about the cavalier dog that has been discussed, in particular the owners of affected offspring. But there is one thing I do not understand - the upset with the the dogs owner but no upset regarding the owners of the bitches who produced the puppies. Genetically speaking it wakes two to tango and make puppies. The dog in questiuon would not have offspring if the owners of the bitches had not used him. It appears that information regarding the scan was not a secret.

kind regards,

Katherine

Karlin
7th September 2008, 01:51 PM
I've closed this thread and split it into sections.
This is the first -- to continue go to Part two (http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=26726).
Or jump to Part three (http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=26725).