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View Full Version : Where do we go now for healthy CKCS?



Tobietots
21st August 2008, 12:42 AM
After that programme last night that highlighted the negligent registered breeders out there and the fact that the KC have ruined their reputation as a respectable organisation. Where can you now look for healthy puppies or dogs to become new additions to your family? Advice would be much appreciated. Thanks :thmbsup:

Maxxs_Mummy
21st August 2008, 01:04 AM
I personally would take my time and look at many litters (yes, I know they are ALL adorable and you'll want to take them all home!). Vet your prospective breeder well (as a good breeder will vet you too).

Ask to see Heart and Eye certs for both dam and sire. Make sure that both parents are at least 5 years old (yes I know lots will disagree but this is one thing they were discussing in the prog last night - breeders actually ignoring MVD breeding guidelines). We must not forget that MVD is still as prevalent as it was years ago as well as the SM that lots of us now have to contend with.

See how many generations of the same family the breeder still has or is prepared to put you in touch with their guardians if they retire them. Ask to see copies of both sire and dams pedigrees to check for inbreeding & how far back and last but not least, ask if they scan their breeding stock and if you can see the reports (prob won't make a lot of sense to you but it will usually say whether or not syrinx or malformation present (means affected in some way - maybe not SM if malformation but that is the Chiari malformation).

Make sure that the heart and eye certs come from specialists btw - not just the local vet (I know a retired vet who routinely issues them for his breeder daughter's dogs - he didn't know about SM until i informed him of it 6mths ago - now he thinks he's a leading authority..... - I won't tell you how he euthanised our hamster but I think you get my drift....).

Above all, if you want a healthy puppy then ask on here - people will do their utmost to help you find one.

One last thing. PLEASE whatever you do, don't just go by pedigree. When I was looking for Maxx I rang an extremely prominent breeder whose dogs are quite famous and have won lots at Crufts etc. This breeder's lineage in dogs is in quite a lot of Cavalier pedigrees today.

Anyway, after about five minutes on the phone to this person I was so mortified by what I was hearing I actually just put the phone down mid conversation - nothing more than a posh puppy farmer to my mind :( Obviously I can't name names on here but just bear in mind to askloads of questions and if alarm bells go off then heed them :~)

Good luck with your puppy hunt :)

Tobietots
21st August 2008, 05:35 PM
Many thanks, thats sounds advice. I guess sometimes, breeders will brush you off when you start asking too many questions or ask to see scans. I know i found it hard when i got Tobe, so would you suguest going to shows and meeting breeders, as i did before? Or would you suguest going to Cavvie club or KC ? I knew about the problems cavvies could get, but after that show the other night i did not realise how widespread SM was, i'm just over cautious now. :d*g:

Karlin
21st August 2008, 06:17 PM
People should go where they have always gone, or should have gone -- to a reputable, health focused breeder who can show they are health focused by providing the certificates you expect to see. :) Not just for one parent, for both, and for grandparents as relevant. :thmbsup:

A lot more breeders are scanning than say so publicly -- sadly it still is something many feel they can't or won't say even though they will note they cardiologist scan and have the certs -- it is just the same! The fact that people feel they cannot highlight their approach to breeding in this way indicates the undercurrent of pressure to keep as quiet as possible about SM. But I see more and more websites that note some or all dogs are scanned and have certs.

For those interested in what to look for if you are seeking a breeder who MRI scans, I have a guide to what to ask for on my SM website:

http://sm.cavaliertalk.com/breeding/breeding/puppies.html

Just saying they scan or a dog is scanned isn't good enough. As with hearts, you want to see the cert, know the grade, and know the grade of the sire if such exists and discuss the crossing and the breeder's goals behind it.

WoodHaven
30th August 2008, 09:36 PM
Ask to see Heart and Eye certs for both dam and sire. Make sure that both parents are at least 5 years old (yes I know lots will disagree but this is one thing they were discussing in the prog last night - breeders actually ignoring MVD breeding guidelines). We must not forget that MVD is still as prevalent as it was years ago as well as the SM that lots of us now have to contend with.




If you are going to give out advice-- PLEASE make sure you have your facts first. The sire and dam of the dog must be over 2 1/2 (heart, eye and patella clear) and their parents over 5 and heart clear. AS any repro expert will tell you: waiting until they are 5 and then planning breeding is not in the bitches best interest (first litter after 5 becomes much more dangerous). fwiw, Sandy

Karlin
31st August 2008, 12:54 PM
Maxx's Mummy: Woodhaven is correct. :thmbsup:

The MCD protocol is in the health library but you can read a good detailed background to it here (http://www.premiercavalierinfosite.com/mitralvalvedisease.htm). Good breeders wait til 2.5 years for breeding their sires/dams, with heart clear parents at 5.

Cathy Moon
5th September 2008, 03:37 AM
Here is a new thread with extensive information on how to find a good breeder :thmbsup:: http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=26676