PDA

View Full Version : MVD and Pedigree Dogs Exposed



Cathy Moon
30th August 2008, 10:41 PM
Thought I'd start a new thread about MVD, since it is a separate issue from SM.

In looking at the pedigree of the Malvern 2008 BIS dog, note that the breeders of his sire and dam (and paternal grandmother) were not following the MVD protocol:

This is the MVD Protocol from the CKCS club website:
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/hearts/mvd.html

This is the Malvern BIS:
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/shows/Results/2008/ckcs08.html

The Malvern BIS pedigree:
http://www.cavaliers.co.uk/cgi-bin/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=27600&gens=4&db=mybreed.dbw

His current owner has not been following the MVD protocol either.

I wonder how many CKCS breeders are using the MVD protocol. It is no mystery why there has been little/no improvement in the CKCS MVD statistics during the past 10 years!!!

It is obvious that something needs to change. The kennel club can go on and on about all the research that has been accomplished for cavalier health - but really it won't do any good at all unless someone starts enforcing the protocols. I still believe that KC registration needs to be based on health testing and following breeding rules.

Puppy buyers: make sure you look at the pedigrees of both sire and dam and look at the birth dates. Subtract 8 weeks from the birth date of the puppy you want to buy, and make sure both parents were 2.5 years old as of that date. It goes without saying that you'll still need to check all health certs and the ages of the dogs when the health screenings were performed.

Edited to add pedigree search information: Online databases: http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=8896

KR
30th August 2008, 11:10 PM
At the risk of making myself hugely unpopular I have a different view.
I am a breeder in Germany and we follow rules to this MVD Protocol.

First I would like to know what sort of examination goes into a heart certificate named in this protocol? Ausculation or ultra sound?

It appears that In Germany we may not have such grave heart issues as are reported on this board. I would consider using a stud dog younger than 2,5 years provided he is healthy and his parents are heart healthy at an advanced age.

Katherine

Karlin
30th August 2008, 11:28 PM
There were international studies done on this condition, and the figure of 50% having MVD by age 5-6 was standard globally. I do not know of any part of the world where this has changed, and certainly I'd want to see thorough evidence to the contrary. Perhaps if all club members have strictly followed the protocol, and the dogs tested are all club member dogs, then there should indeed have been an improvement. :thmbsup: Research has shown a significant decrease in the risk of early onset MVD when the parents do not have early onset MVD. The older the parents at the time of breeding the more likely this is to hold. The younger they are bred, the higher the risk despite the status of the dog's parents.

If you are breeding dogs under 2.5 years, you are not following the MVD protocol though. It may be a variation in club approach (the Swedish club is also outside the MVD protocol as it allows breeding at 24 months) -- but it is not the MVD protocol.

Auscultation by a specialist -- NOT a vet -- is what is generally used.

KR
30th August 2008, 11:31 PM
Could you please answer the question about what sort of examination is done for the issuing of a heart certificate whether this is ausculation or ultra sound, or even farb doppler?

I see while I was typing the above you answered..

KR
30th August 2008, 11:34 PM
why not a vet - is the education of a vet in the uk particularly restricted that they can not hear a murmerß

how loing is the trainign for a vet in the UK?

Karlin
30th August 2008, 11:41 PM
Background to the protocol from the CKCSC:


Heart Symposium - 1998

May 16th, 1998 was a historical one for Cavalier fanciers. Through the extraordinary efforts of Randi Rosvoll and Bob Sims, a panel consisting of a geneticist from Sweden and 4 veterinary cardiologists representing various countries were assembled to pass on their extensive knowledge of mitral valve disease (MVD) in Cavaliers and to give us direction in determining what strategies we can use to combat this dreadful affliction.

The symposium discussion:

http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/formsdocs.nsf/filelookup/98heartsymp.PDF/$file/98heartsymp.PDF

And from that very 1998 heart symposium, at which the MVD protocol was drawn up -- does this sound vaguely familiar, folks? A LOT familiar? These are exactly the same arguments being made for why people can't remove dogs from breeding programmes based 'just' on poor MRIs...


There was mention of our breed
initially starting with only 4 dogs and
consequently our gene pool is very
small and would Cavaliers ever be
“free” of MVD. Lennart Swenson felt
that more than 4 dogs were used in the
beginning but it really didn’t matter
since all breeds began with just a few
dogs (6-8 in Cocker Spaniels, etc.). He
said the goal is not to rid the breed of
MVD but to have all Cavaliers die a
natural death before they get MVD,
then it’s no longer a problem.

If every, or at least most, breeders
followed the breeding protocol, how
many generations would it take to see
results? Lennart Swenson said that by
using the Swedish protocol and with
good compliance, you would see a
major improvement in just 1 generation.
However it wouldn’t be until those
puppies were 7-9 years old that you
would actually be able to confirm that
an increased percentage of them were
still murmur free. He said in 2-3
generations you will have a much better
situation but ONLY IF YOU
ACTUALLY USE THESE
TECHNIQUES. He most fears that
breeders will not follow the program.

How did the Swedes come up with
the ages in their breeding protocol?
They used 5 years and heart-clear
because of the bell curve showing that
about 1⁄2 of Cavaliers had already gotten
a murmur by 5 years and 21⁄2 years was
selected because it is half of 5.

The panelists said that 14 months
old was the youngest age at which
they’ve detected a mitral valve murmur.

Some folks worried that there will
not be very many heart-clear 5 year old
sires to breed to and too many dogs
would be eliminated from the breeding
population. Lennart Swenson said that
when breeders say they can’t afford to
cut out this much of the population
they forget that they already do just
that. They only breed about 10% of
males and the rest are cut out of the
population because of their lack of
“beauty”. Breeders are willing to make
hard decisions and cut away a lot of
dogs for the beautification of the breed
but when they discuss hearts, suddenly
it is different. Swenson finds that very
“peculiar”.

If so little has changed with hearts... many worry there will equally be little progress with SM. Testing hearts by a cardiologist is in most countries fairly cheap and accessible thanks to club programmes. But dogs are very obviously still being bred way outside the protocol, at 12 months,m 15 months, 18 months etc, and lots are only vet tested, which means only a 50/50 chance of getting the test right. :-|

Karlin
30th August 2008, 11:46 PM
There have been studies that show vets DEFINITELY miss about half of early onset murmurs up to about age 5-6 in dogs. OFA in the US will not accept results from anything but a cardiologist because a vet test is meaningless -- a 50/50 chance of getting it right is not a test.

This is exactly the same issue with heart murmurs being picked up by human GPs. Or lung disease. Specialists easily hear problems that generalists do not. It is due to experience and focused study and the fact that they listen to hearts all the time. Vets are generally only doing a quick test. Some vets are definitely very good at getting murmurs and grades right though.

There are studies out there on this issue.

http://photos5.flickr.com/10523015_7b32082ac1_o.jpg

The UK club no longer accepts dogs for its 'Healthy Hearts' list that have not been cardiologist certified clear because of this issue.

KR
31st August 2008, 12:19 AM
I see. Ultrasound also pick up on problems which can not be heard by auscultation. This is why many stud dog owners do that in addition to auscultation.

I understand the protocol now, and with my choice I understand that I would not be keeping to that, but I think in this case i could live with that and still not consider myself a bad breeder.

The dog in question ist 2 years 2 months old he is heart clear as confirmed by uascultation and ultrasound. His father is 12, and developed grade 1 at the age of 9 years and around 6 months. His mother is 8 and is clear. I would be happy to compromise the 4 months simply because 2,5 is half of 5.
The bitch is nearly five years old and heart cleared as confirmed by auscultation and ultrasound.

KR
31st August 2008, 12:25 AM
sorry I have seen I made a typing error in my first post - I meant to write we follow different rules than the mvd protocol but i left one word out

Jay
31st August 2008, 12:30 AM
"Lennart Swenson said that
when breeders say they can’t afford to
cut out this much of the population
they forget that they already do just
that. They only breed about 10% of
males and the rest are cut out of the
population because of their lack of
“beauty”. Breeders are willing to make
hard decisions and cut away a lot of
dogs for the beautification of the breed
but when they discuss hearts, suddenly
it is different. Swenson finds that very
“peculiar”."


This certainly gives one cause to to wonder.......

J.

Cathy T
31st August 2008, 12:31 AM
Breeders are willing to make
hard decisions and cut away a lot of
dogs for the beautification of the breed
but when they discuss hearts, suddenly
it is different


Good point...and agreed "very peculiar"

KR
31st August 2008, 12:46 AM
yes the quote is quite poignant - but if you are going to expect UK breeders to keep to the protocol, then it means determining a dog ist heart clear at 2,5 years not when it is a puppy. You can assess confirmation at an age of 8 weeks when choosing puppies to keep, you can not assess the heart a dog is supposed to have at 2,5 years at 8 weeks.
It is always sad when the wrong choice is made.

I had a separate discussion once with a dog owner about Arnold chiari - she was of the opinion that the goal should be to eradicate that. I pointed out o.k. if one were to do this, then every bitch puppy that is sold by a breeder is essentially not sold but loaned to their new owner, and if their head develops correctly the owner will be forced to give the puppy back to the breeder to breed with. How else would one find sufficient dogs - this was not a popular choice - so she dropped the subject.

Cathy T
31st August 2008, 01:00 AM
but if you are going to expect UK breeders to keep to the protocol, then it means determining a dog ist heart clear at 2,5 years not when it is a puppy. You can assess confirmation at an age of 8 weeks when choosing puppies to keep, you can not assess the heart a dog is supposed to have at 2,5 years at 8 weeks.



I'm going to say for any breeder rather than specifically UK breeders ;)...and completely agree.

KR
31st August 2008, 01:31 AM
I do not feel auscultation (or is it ausculation - i do not know) is sufficient at such a young age, as many faults need to be diagnosed with ultrasound, but it is easy for me to say, as it is not too expensive here - it may be expensive somewhere else.
I find it a sufficient for an older dog - or a bitch who has had puppies as the physical stress can bring to light a hidden heart defect.
But if a population is so ill still - it may have no choice but to accept hidden defects - I do not know.

Arlene
31st August 2008, 05:27 PM
I noticed on this write up about the Malvern show, there was mention of the heart clinics right at the show.

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Breeds/BreedNotes/10-CAV

"The trade stands were full of tempting goodies and heart and eye-testing were available."

I am wondering if at these heart clinics there is also a hand out of the MVD protocol?

I do think it is a terrible example that some of the winning dog's kennels and owners set.

If you google the winner of the Malvern show you find this litter.

http://www.freewebs.com/lourisma/carsanendlessmagic.htm

This is the litter announcement of the dam on champdogs.uk

http://www.champdogs.co.uk/puppy/8055.html

Would it not be prudently important, and I would even say ethical, of the owners of these high profile dogs to insist on the dams they breed to be heart tested and over 30 months? These are the leading kennels in the breed, after all.

Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky mix, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier:)

Lisa_T
31st August 2008, 10:16 PM
Personally, I think 'beautification' should be forgotten about for the meantime. Breeders should be focusing on health and soundness rather than looks. Establish the future of the breed and then worry about apperances.

Realistically, though, it's not gonna happen. Breeding and pet buying just isn't set up that way, unless you say that a handful of breeders should keep every pup they breed until the dog is old enough to be screened for SM at least and then make their keeper decisions, but that's totally impractical from an economic perspective.

KR
1st September 2008, 01:16 AM
Hello,

prompted by Karlin's post about the studies etc.. I contacted the head of our "Zuchtbuch" this is the person who runs our "stud book" and is responsible for our breeding guidelines. Our club supports many companion dog breeds, and as such the rules for cavaliers are just one of many.
I asked her whether we needed the ability to allow male dogs aged 3 to breed with grade 1 heart. Her answer was no not from the heart perspective.
I think I need to give a bit of background, in our club a dog must provide the person who runs our studbook with a heart certificate, a for a bitch you have to provide one prior to her being mated and the certificate my not be older than 4 weeks, usually when she is on heat you get the certificate done. This means that she has a certificate for every male dog in breeding for every year. Many breeders to do mate their girls every year and so she will have fewer for that.
She informed me that we do not have a single dog aged 3 with a certificate of grade 1 - they are all clear. We only have one dog at stud in the club with mvd - he is (8 years old and is grade 1.
The person running our stud book will not change the rules (I am not saying she refuses too, but she sees no need to change them, especially as there are no affected males dogs at stud of that age). She prefers to keep the rules as they are. We are currently undertaking everything we can to get puppy buyers to report on the health of their dogs in particular to receive any reports on SM - we need to watch this, we have selection methods in place for it - but will leave the heart rules as they are - we do not know what will happen in the future regarding the SM issue.

kind regards,
Katherine

Karlin
1st September 2008, 05:39 PM
Thanks for that info -- very interesting to know how other clubs manage this issue! :thmbsup:

Karlin
1st September 2008, 05:41 PM
Also relevant to this thread, crossposted from the main Pedigree Dogs thread on the Malvern dog regarding the MVD protocol and this dog. His first litter was sired at just NINE MONTHS old and there were 13 more -- 6 litters before he was even one. :mad:

I have a feeling, sadly, that this is not an isolated case.

These are statistics verified by the Kennel Club records:

Born on 3 Oct 2003. He has had at least 35 litters, producing a total of 128 pups (I think more since then as there are two litters on the ground now).

He was MRId around 16 months. After diagnosis, he went on to sire 23 of these litters (77 pups).

He performed 14 matings which resulted in litters before the age of 2.5 years (given a 62-day pregnancy).

Litter birthdate/ Number of pups

05/08/2004 6
11/10/2004 5
05/11/2004 5
25/11/2004 1
06/12/2004 1
27/12/2004 5

(early 2005 = MRI)

22/02/2005 8
24/02/2005 5
07/03/2005 2
18/03/2005 3
19/03/2005 5
10/04/2005 5
27/05/2005 5
01/06/2005 5

(now age 2.5 years)

13/07/2005 4
22/08/2005 3
23/09/2005 6
25/09/2005 3
19/12/2005 2
29/01/2006 1
25/03/2006 2
27/03/2006 2
05/06/2006 5
19/06/2006 6
18/07/2006 3
18/07/2006 4
26/08/2006 5
27/09/2006 2
22/10/2006 4
?? 0 (litter aborted - registered 19/03/2007)
18/11/2006 6
04/01/2007 2
16/03/2007 1
07/04/2007 1
23/05/2007 3
10/12/2007 2

Cathy Moon
2nd September 2008, 12:03 AM
No wonder the MVD statistics are not improving.

Too bad this information wasn't included in the BBC program, along with the names of everyone involved.

WoodHaven
2nd September 2008, 12:32 AM
No wonder the MVD statistics are not improving.


That is contrary to everything I am being told by cardiologists-- I have been told that fewer and fewer cavaliers are being dx early.

It is fairly common to use a male before 2.5 years. Don't shoot the messenger, but MANY breeders try a boy out early. The protocol isn't the "rule", it is a strongly worded suggestion.
I am just telling you how it is, I am not supporting any position.

frecklesmom
2nd September 2008, 01:04 AM
I'm wondering if these cardiologists are in Chicago area? Sad about using male dogs early-only takes one parent to pass on the MVD and if they're b/4 the minimum age of 2.5 I guess it's buyer beware.:( IMHO it's sad b'cuz it seems it's about prestige or money but not about helping the breed.

WoodHaven
2nd September 2008, 01:08 AM
I'm wondering if these cardiologists are in Chicago area? Sad about using male dogs early-only takes one parent to pass on the MVD and if they're b/4 the minimum age of 2.5 I guess it's buyer beware.:( IMHO it's sad b'cuz it seems it's about prestige or money but not about helping the breed.

No, they are the cardiologists we use at club shows; Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana.
You have to remember that early onset isn't necessary a death sentence and being clear past five doesn't mean you are alive at six. Many of these same breeders have 3-4 generations IN their home.
IF you think you have the answers to this breed issue. Put your money, (blood,sweat and tears) on the line and do it. It shouldn't take more than 3-5 years of study. 2-4 years to finish a dog and then your set.... Don't forget to bring your check book. Nothing about breeding is cheap. Too many people seem to act like monday morning quarterbacks.

Karlin
2nd September 2008, 12:10 PM
I know breeders often try out a boy when young. But even if that were still acceptable (and I do not think is, given the serious health issues -- these are basically then test litters and I wonder are the puppy buyers told the potential consequences?) ) there is still a HUGE difference between trying a boy out to prove he will mate and deliberately breeding six litters before the dog is even a year old, starting from 9 months which most responsible breeders even in breeds that do not have the CKCS's heart problems think is irresponsibly early. Most say a minimum of a year old at least -- to breed at 9 months is nauseating.

Is it right to do so in a breed where solid research shows that the older a dog is at onset, the longer offspring will also live? I think no. The research is also very clear that later onset murmurs tend not to be as extreme a form of MVD. The studies are there.

If breeders consider the MVD protocol not worth following -- and going by evidence in the pedigree database or taking the Beauella dog as an example, lots consider it an inconvenience that others can follow, but not them -- then why do the clubs tell us, the pet puppy buyers, to find breeders who follow it? What then differentiates getting a dog from a BYB or a mill? The majority of older cavaliers I meet in Ireland that are over 10 are actually either BYB or otherwise casually bred dogs where absolutely no thought at all went into the mating. If health protocols do not matter, and they are regularly skirted, then I can offer little argument against buying your puppy out of the want ads over here except the fact that the club bred dog might look a little nicer. But most people know little about exactly how a cavalier should look any way a and do not care.

I support club breeders who at minimum follow the MVD protocol and have spent three years running this site and going to bat constantly for good breeders and the value of the health-focused breeder. I have never wavered in that commitment to health focused breeders. The MVD protocol is the most basic and most well-researched of health guidelines in the breed. If no one really thinks they should follow it, I would like the clubs to explain why they are telling us that we need to find such breeders if so many feel it doesn't matter anyway? Is it all lip service then, as most breeders know most buyers are too intimidated to ask for certs? What value then to going to the majority of club breeders at all?

WoodHaven
2nd September 2008, 02:25 PM
Karlin wrote:
Born on 3 Oct 2003. He has had at least 35 litters, producing a total of 128 pups (I think more since then as there are two litters on the ground now).

Litter birthdate/ Number of pups

05/08/2004 6
11/10/2004 5
05/11/2004 5
25/11/2004 1
06/12/2004 1
27/12/2004 5 End Karlin statement
************************************************
According to these litter stats-- he was bred 4 times before a year of age.

Would I breed my males under a year -- NO. Would I breed TO a male under a year-- NO. But this isn't MY breeding program. Did she break any laws-- No.

Buyers have the ultimate power here-- to buy or not to buy a pup. I field over a hundred puppy buyers- no way could I ever have a hundred pups a year to sell. I try to give people the questions to ask breeders. I hope they do the research, but most people give more attention to price than health tests.

How are puppy mills and byb different from reputable breeders who don't follow protocols. I just picked up two breeding cavaliers from a mill shut down. Most reputable breeders would NEVER breed these two dogs (let alone make designer puppies from them). These two poor dogs looked and acted like they'd been through Hell. fwiw

RodRussell
2nd September 2008, 02:39 PM
That is contrary to everything I am being told by cardiologists-- I have been told that fewer and fewer cavaliers are being dx early.

It is fairly common to use a male before 2.5 years. Don't shoot the messenger, but MANY breeders try a boy out early. The protocol isn't the "rule", it is a strongly worded suggestion.
I am just telling you how it is, I am not supporting any position.

Compared to the statistics complied which led to the 1998 MVD Protocol, there is no way fewer Cavaliers now are developing early-onset MVD.

First of all, the statistics in the USA used to develop the MVD Protocol were complied over an eight year period -- 1990-1997 -- when nearly all Cavaliers in the USA were registered with the CKCSC,USA, and the statistics were obtained from health clinics held by CKCSC,USA at its regional conformation shows. Since, 1996, roughly 80% of all Cavaliers bred in the USA have not been registered with the CKCSC,USA and instead are registered only with the AKC (or, worse, registered only by any of those 20+ listing services which commercial and backyard breeders have been flocking to).

Since the AKC's parent club for Cavaliers, the ACKCSC, has ignored the MVD breeding protocol (it is nowhere to be found on its website and never has been), and typically, AKC parent clubs are the main source for nearly all health information passed along to AKC-only breeders, that means that since 1996, nearly 80% of all CKCS breeders don't even know about the MVD breeding protocol, much less wait until their stock is 2.5 years old to breed them.

Those cardiologists who think early-onset MVD is declining have been living in a bubble. They are testing only a very small percentage of Cavaliers now being bred.

Very few breeders faithfully follow the MVD Protocol, and I know of less than ten in the USA who follow it from the beginning of their use of their breeding stock. In other words, perhaps a breeder will have a dog or a bitch which is over 2.5 years of age with a clear heart and with both parents' hearts clear at 5 years, so when that Cavalier is bred, the breeder would be complying with the MVD Protocol. But, odds are that the breeder did not wait until that Cavalier was 2.5 years of age before the first breeding. So, at the outset, the breeders did not comply with the Protocol, and most probably with other breeding stock in her kennel, she has been breeding Cavaliers which will never be able to comply.

As you wrote:

It is fairly common to use a male before 2.5 years. Don't shoot the messenger, but MANY breeders try a boy out early. The protocol isn't the "rule", it is a strongly worded suggestion.

It is EXTREMELY common. And, it is totally irresponsible. It is true that the Protocol is not a rule, but any breeder who does not follow it is contributing to the growing problem of early-onset MVD and to the unnecessary early deaths of future generations of Cavaliers, and no one should buy a puppy from such a breeder.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA

Nancy
2nd September 2008, 02:52 PM
I hope everyone realizes that Sandy does follow MVD protocol and she has MRI'd many of her dogs. I can't speak for the UK but most US Club breeders do follow it as well. It's interesting to me that my only Cavalier who has a murmur is the one who had Swedish parents, where their strict rules and progress are used as an example. He's a neutered pet but I have taken advantage of heart clinics, which are open to everyone, to get him tested. But why does the blame fall mostly on the breeders when some puppy buyers who are trying to save a few or a lot of bucks are keeping the mills and BYB's in business? Not only do they accept random and careless breeding but also are more comfortable with the "nicer" breeder who doesn't ask too many questions, doesn't care if you have a fenced yard or not, work hours, young children, etc.? I don't accept that they are too intimidated to ask for it. They'd ask for it with any other product. And maybe spend more time learning how to buy it. I can't tell you how many times I've explained to buyers that the parents are the key, but they go ahead and buy the puppy anyway without the basics. There is a line here that I have risked telling puppy buyers about because of what I know. So what did they do? They told the breeder , got some kind of reassurance and went and got the puppy anyway. That is a perfect example of "it goes both ways." I speak for myself when I tell you that I do not support a breeder who goes against everything we've learned, I just think that an inordinate amount of time has been spent making one person the focus and it isn't productive. Also, how many of you are getting your middle age dog heart seen by a cardiologist to get a head start on any potential problems? It's not just for breeders.

WoodHaven
2nd September 2008, 02:53 PM
No body asked for my statistics... I have one dog that is 5 or under that had a one murmur. I will have her tested again in 12 days and we will see whats up.(she is spay) The 7,6,6,5 4.5 etc... were all CLEAR. That meant that as of last year 10% of my cavaliers had a murmur AT ALL.

I don't know who and how those statistics were compiled, but I have sponsored a health clinic at MY place for the last 5 years.
***** September 14th the CKCSC-GC will have health clinics for the 6th year-- anyone who can make it to the north chicago suburbs on that day is invited. http://www.ckcsc-gc.org/ All breeds invited for heart auscultation and CERF eye exams by board certified specialists ($30.00 each test). We open up our place to make it easier for people to find good vets at a decent price. I do what I can Rod.

KR
2nd September 2008, 04:13 PM
Good afternoon,

a few of you may have noticed my resitance to a statement that 50% of Cavaliers have a heart problem at age 5. This is because I simply can not accept that this is rue for the whole world.

There has only been one large scale study of cavalier hearts in germany running from 01.01.2000 to 01.01.2003 - In this Study (Hagel) 640 cavaliers were examined. Of these dogs 11,4% had a heart murmer. The prevalence of a heart murmer in a dog under 4 years was found to be 20,9%

In this study this 20,9% is compared to historical figures from different countries. They were as follows:

UK (1987) - prevalence 59%
Australia (1992) prevalence 25%
USA (1993) prevalence 56%
Austria (1995) prevalence 71%
Denmark (1999) prevalence 48,3%
Sweden (1992) prevalence 42%

The study is here: http://www.ccd-cavaliere.de/tierschutz/herzstudie_hagel.pdf

I am sorry but I can not translate it but you can see the table I am referring to on page 2.

Why should I assume that in germany - where no heart sick dam may be used in breeding, and where inly limited use of heart sick sires is allwoed that this should have increased.

kind regards,

Katherine

RodRussell
2nd September 2008, 04:39 PM
...I can't speak for the UK but most US Club breeders do follow it as well. ...
... But why does the blame fall mostly on the breeders when some puppy buyers who are trying to save a few or a lot of bucks are keeping the mills and BYB's in business?

I don't which US club you are referring to, but as for the CKCSC,USA and the AKC, nearly all breeders in both clubs do NOT follow the MVD breeding protocol. The ACKCSC, which is the parent club for Cavaliers in the AKC, does not even publish the MVD Breeding Protocol on its website.

As for blaming the breeders, I certainly DO blame the breeders who do not follow the MVD Breeding Protocol because they are the ones who make the decisions to breed underaged Cavaliers. If they base their breeding decisions on competing with commercial breeders and BYBs to please puppy buyers, then they are no better than those commercial breeders and BYBs.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA

RodRussell
2nd September 2008, 04:46 PM
No body asked for my statistics... I have one dog that is 5 or under that had a one murmur. I will have her tested again in 12 days and we will see whats up.(she is spay) The 7,6,6,5 4.5 etc... were all CLEAR. That meant that as of last year 10% of my cavaliers had a murmur AT ALL.

I don't know who and how those statistics were compiled, but I have sponsored a health clinic at MY place for the last 5 years. ...
... I do what I can Rod.

Sandy, I know what you do, and I respect you for it. The more heart clinics, the better!

As for compiling the statistics, the procedure which led up to the creation of the MVD Breeding Protocol was that the examining cardiologists sent a copy of each report they filled out at health clinics, and submitted the reports, without the dogs' names and other information, to either Dr. Buchanan or another cardiologist, who compiled the data.

I do not know if this data collection has continued.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA

Nancy
2nd September 2008, 04:50 PM
If they base their breeding decisions on competing with commercial breeders and BYBs to please puppy buyers, then they are no better than those commercial breeders and BYBs.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA[/QUOTE]

Rod, My dogs are registered with both clubs but I belong to CKCSC where everyone I personally know, does follow in most instances. If they do not, they know the lines many generations back. I don't know everyone, so saying most is inaccurate. However, Where do you get the conclusion that I said anyone based breeding decisions on competing with commercial breeders...nothing I said is even close!
Yes, those who breed with igorance and disregard are certainly to blame, my point is that it goes both ways. Why are people still buying puppies from them?

WoodHaven
2nd September 2008, 04:59 PM
How would you know who follows it or not? Do you mean EVER or do you mean 100%? I mean accidents DO happen to even the most diligent of breeders.
AND diversity in nature is what tends to balance things out. IF everyone had to do everything the same way.... we'd all be in the same boat. This is great if ALL aspects and changes are positive. What happens if EVERYONE now has another medical disaster and we are all in the same boat...
AND your premise of the protocol is that it is the truth, the gospel and the holy grail of breeding. One must realize that the truths of today are often wrong. The earth is flat, the earth is the center of the universe, sperm is the whole reproductive unit and the female the fertile growing medium. THESE were all known "truths". While I believe in the MVD protocol (YES, honest to pete) I am not going to play G*D and tell everyone that they must follow me down the path. Sorry, MY crystal ball is out for repair.

RodRussell
2nd September 2008, 05:10 PM
Rod, My dogs are registered with both clubs but I belong to CKCSC where everyone I personally know, does follow in most instances. If they do not, they know the lines many generations back. I don't know everyone, so saying most is inaccurate. However, Where do you get the conclusion that I said anyone based breeding decisions on competing with commercial breeders...nothing I said is even close!
Yes, those who breed with igorance and disregard are certainly to blame, my point is that it goes both ways. Why are people still buying puppies from them?

Members of my family have been members of the CKCSC,USA since the early 1970s, and one or more of us are in frequent conversation with several breeders in that club. In addition, the CKCSC,USA litter statistics, which are published quarterly, include the names and birthdates of sires and dams. So, even if I know nothing else about a particular parent of a litter, I know that if that parent is under 2.5 years of age, that breeder is not following the MVD Breeding Protocol. First litter information also is available from the AKC about AKC-registered Cavaliers.

As for your question in your second paragraph above, I was commenting on what I thought you wrote in your earlier post. If I mis-read it, then ignore what I wrote. My point is that, regardless of the knowledge and intentions of the buyer -- which in most cases is total ignorance about MVD -- the buck stops with the breeders. They are the ones who do the breeding.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA

RodRussell
2nd September 2008, 05:16 PM
AND your premise of the protocol is that it is the truth, the gospel and the holy grail of breeding. One must realize that the truths of today are often wrong.

We will never know, because the MVD Breeding Protocol essentially was Dead-On-Arrival in May 1998, so few breeders having chosen to follow it, from the very outset. As the geneticist who devised it, Lennart Swenson, stated at the May 1998 Symposium: ""The biggest reason that breeding schemes fail is that breeders don't follow them!"

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA

RodRussell
2nd September 2008, 05:20 PM
How would you know who follows it or not? Do you mean EVER or do you mean 100%? I mean accidents DO happen to even the most diligent of breeders.

I know that breeding accidents happen.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA

WoodHaven
2nd September 2008, 05:30 PM
It is so nice to be able to debate issues of importance and understand that we may not agree--- but we do what we do for the love of this breed. I know that Rod puts a lot of good information online (health clinics etc...). I also don't believe I would have bought my first cavalier if I'd read all the information he has up. Luckily, my cavaliers have been healthier than the britney, cocker and collie that I have had in the recent past.

RodRussell
2nd September 2008, 05:36 PM
There has only been one large scale study of cavalier hearts in germany running from 01.01.2000 to 01.01.2003 - In this Study (Hagel) 640 cavaliers were examined. Of these dogs 11,4% had a heart murmer. The prevalence of a heart murmer in a dog under 4 years was found to be 20,9%

In this study this 20,9% is compared to historical figures from different countries. They were as follows:

UK (1987) - prevalence 59%
Australia (1992) prevalence 25%
USA (1993) prevalence 56%
Austria (1995) prevalence 71%
Denmark (1999) prevalence 48,3%
Sweden (1992) prevalence 42%

Why should I assume that in germany - where no heart sick dam may be used in breeding, and where inly limited use of heart sick sires is allwoed that this should have increased

I am not sure that the numbers of dogs is accurate in all of those studies quoted above, because the MVD breeding protocol statistics were based upon examinations of several thousands of Cavaliers. The above studies also do not include all of the countries in which such studies were conducted, Canada being notably absent.

If, in Germany or any other country, the MVD Breeding Protocol or a similar one is compulsory, I would expect a lower incidence of early-onset MVD in the offspring and future generations. That is how it was explained at the MVD Symposium in May 1998. I am sure that current statistics for Sweden would be much lower than they were in 1992 (42%), because of the compulsory breeding protocol instituted there. Australia and New Zealand have been an anomoly to me. Perhaps it is due to their remoteness.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA

Karlin
2nd September 2008, 06:41 PM
My issue is that on one side, we have had scientific research that clearly shows breeding older dogs with clear hearts produces more older dogs with clear hearts.

On the other side we have breeders that will argue they know lines and longevity and therefore can fudge on the MVD protocol because they know better, yet that knowing better than the science sure doesn't seem to have worked, given the continuing problem in the breed with MVD! In club-bred dogs. In the UK club at least, they are tracking the active breeder results and the accuracy of the fact that there has been NO improvement comes from the club's own cardiologist! Not from someone guessing, or some outside study.

I repeat: we are not talking BYBs and puppy farm cavaliers, here, we are talking *club breeders* and their dogs.

I can pull any range of dogs off the winning lists from recent UK shows and demonstrate definitively that many are bred well outside the MVD protocol. Do a reverse pedigree and you can see that most bitches are bred starting at the 16 month minimum that the CLUB sanctions in its ethics section! It is easy to name and shame -- as Rod says -- and maybe the time has come to start listing dogs bred outside the heart protocol so people can at least remove those lines from their list of puppy purchases. I can easily go find dogs bred outside th MVD protocol, bred by the same people on the club committees who tell us, the puppy buyers, never, ever to buy from a breeder who doesn't follow it.

I mean, the UK Club does not even bother to recommend the MVD protocol in its own code of ethics!


No bitch to be mated so as to whelp before she is 16 months old, and then only if she is considered mature enough to raise a litter of puppies.

What does this say to breeders -- do what you want, basically, because we don't sanction following this important health protocol, nudge nudge. And there's no change in MVD statistics. Hmmm -- might the two not be connected?

This just makes a mockery of the protocol and demolishes reasons why puppy buyers should bother with many of the club breeders. Nine months is about as far outside the MVD protocol as you can get -- that's a puppy that has barely hit puberty. :bang:

KR
2nd September 2008, 11:02 PM
I am not sure that the numbers of dogs is accurate in all of those studies quoted above, because the MVD breeding protocol statistics were based upon examinations of several thousands of Cavaliers. The above studies also do not include all of the countries in which such studies were conducted, Canada being notably absent.

If, in Germany or any other country, the MVD Breeding Protocol or a similar one is compulsory, I would expect a lower incidence of early-onset MVD in the offspring and future generations. That is how it was explained at the MVD Symposium in May 1998. I am sure that current statistics for Sweden would be much lower than they were in 1992 (42%), because of the compulsory breeding protocol instituted there. Australia and New Zealand have been an anomoly to me. Perhaps it is due to their remoteness.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA

Why should the number be incorrect? If you click on the link I posted earlier you are brought directly to the study - it states in teh amtrix on page 2 the specific studies to which it is referring. This is the only mass study that has been done in Germany, there is no other one. The nubmer of dogs examined for Germany (approx 600) may seem low, but we only have between 600 to 800 puppies born per year. the population here in particular the population being sued to breed is not large.

I am in no way trying to discredit any other study, but I live and breed in Germany and so the figures for Germany are most relevant to me, not those of the US or the UK.

I also in another post posted feedback from the stud book manager. We have in our club only one stud dog on our books who has grade 1 mvd - and he is 8 years old, and believe me noone uses him here. The majority of stud dog owners do ultrasound test - which are more precise than auskultation. We have different rules here than the mvd protocol, but that is the advantage we have rules, they are rules not a recommendation. Breeders here even do more than the rules not to have mvd. In addition to this we track every year the heart status of our dogs and this is documented in our stud book.

I have no reason to believe that there is widespread mvd amongst our population - so I will not state that every breeder in the world must follow the mvd protocol. I fully accept that in some countries this is the solution.

There is an interesting hitsory to the population in Germany. Germany as you know until about 20 years ago was two countries (I think 20 is correct!). The cavalier population in East Germany was very very inbred, a geneticists nightmare! But they had never heard of heart problems and certainly did not observe them - it is quite possible that they were there and were not noticed, but msot east german breeders are convinced that they simply did not exist in their population. Now you may think that is impossible - but it is not - it was an extremely isolated dog population with very few imports, also from the eastern block countries. They did however have SM then - but they did not know what to call it. The merger of the east german and west germans dogs did not take place overnight!

kind regards,

Katherine

RodRussell
3rd September 2008, 06:17 PM
Why should the number be incorrect? ...
I am in no way trying to discredit any other study, but I live and breed in Germany and so the figures for Germany are most relevant to me, not those of the US or the UK.

I also in another post posted feedback from the stud book manager. We have in our club only one stud dog on our books who has grade 1 mvd - and he is 8 years old, and believe me noone uses him here. The majority of stud dog owners do ultrasound test - which are more precise than auskultation. We have different rules here than the mvd protocol, but that is the advantage we have rules, they are rules not a recommendation. Breeders here even do more than the rules not to have mvd. In addition to this we track every year the heart status of our dogs and this is documented in our stud book.

I have no reason to believe that there is widespread mvd amongst our population - so I will not state that every breeder in the world must follow the mvd protocol. I fully accept that in some countries this is the solution.

Dear Katherine: I am not questioning the numbers of dogs in the studies cited in the German article; I just am suggesting that, overall, there were other studies (none German that I know of) and more dogs involved in those studies which led to establishing the UK and US versions of the MVD protocol.

In the US, I suspect that there is a lower percentage of Cavalier breeding stock being examined by ultrasound to detect the onset of MVD. Auscultation is the standard here, for a couple of reasons:

First, the specialists who created the MVD protocol recommended auscultation (instead of ultrasound) because it is more accessible and costs less, and for the purposes of detecting blood backflow through the mitral valve, it is adequate.

Second, as has been determined by a Canadian study (around 1999, I think), ultrasound is much more accurate and will detect backflow earlier than will auscultation. Ultrasound is called the Gold Standard. So, if ultrasound were the standard for determining the onset of backflow, then the minimum age for the breeding stock's parents to have been cleared should be more like 4 years rather than 5 years, and perhaps even the starting age for the breeding pair should be earlier, like 2 years rather than 2.5.

What this comparison really means is that the truth is that Cavaliers develop MVD a lot earlier than when it is first detected by auscultation, but the specialists have decided that since we never will get to the point of eliminating MVD entirely (unless gene research gets us there), waiting until a stethoscope can detect the backflow is "good enough" for the purpose of reducing the incidence of early-onset MVD and trying to move that onset age back to 5 years or older.


There is an interesting hitsory to the population in Germany. Germany as you know until about 20 years ago was two countries (I think 20 is correct!). The cavalier population in East Germany was very very inbred, a geneticists nightmare! But they had never heard of heart problems and certainly did not observe them - it is quite possible that they were there and were not noticed, but msot east german breeders are convinced that they simply did not exist in their population.

This experience may parallel that of Australia and New Zealand. It may be evidence that MVD was not present at the creation of the breed, and that one or more Popular Sires introduced it -- clearly in the UK first and several decades ago -- from whence it spread, with the Iron Curtain keeping it out of Eastern Europe. My family had Cavaliers with MVD as early as the 1960s, all of which were imported from the UK.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA