MVD and Pedigree Dogs Exposed

Thought I'd start a new thread about MVD, since it is a separate issue from SM.

In looking at the pedigree of the Malvern 2008 BIS dog, note that the breeders of his sire and dam (and paternal grandmother) were not following the MVD protocol:

This is the MVD Protocol from the CKCS club website:
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/hearts/mvd.html

This is the Malvern BIS:
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/shows/Results/2008/ckcs08.html

The Malvern BIS pedigree:
http://www.cavaliers.co.uk/cgi-bin/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=27600&gens=4&db=mybreed.dbw

His current owner has not been following the MVD protocol either.

I wonder how many CKCS breeders are using the MVD protocol. It is no mystery why there has been little/no improvement in the CKCS MVD statistics during the past 10 years!!!

It is obvious that something needs to change. The kennel club can go on and on about all the research that has been accomplished for cavalier health - but really it won't do any good at all unless someone starts enforcing the protocols. I still believe that KC registration needs to be based on health testing and following breeding rules.

Puppy buyers: make sure you look at the pedigrees of both sire and dam and look at the birth dates. Subtract 8 weeks from the birth date of the puppy you want to buy, and make sure both parents were 2.5 years old as of that date. It goes without saying that you'll still need to check all health certs and the ages of the dogs when the health screenings were performed.

Edited to add pedigree search information: Online databases: http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=8896

At the risk of making myself hugely unpopular I have a different view.
I am a breeder in Germany and we follow rules to this MVD Protocol.

First I would like to know what sort of examination goes into a heart certificate named in this protocol? Ausculation or ultra sound?

It appears that In Germany we may not have such grave heart issues as are reported on this board. I would consider using a stud dog younger than 2,5 years provided he is healthy and his parents are heart healthy at an advanced age.

Katherine

There were international studies done on this condition, and the figure of 50% having MVD by age 5-6 was standard globally. I do not know of any part of the world where this has changed, and certainly I'd want to see thorough evidence to the contrary. Perhaps if all club members have strictly followed the protocol, and the dogs tested are all club member dogs, then there should indeed have been an improvement. Research has shown a significant decrease in the risk of early onset MVD when the parents do not have early onset MVD. The older the parents at the time of breeding the more likely this is to hold. The younger they are bred, the higher the risk despite the status of the dog's parents.

If you are breeding dogs under 2.5 years, you are not following the MVD protocol though. It may be a variation in club approach (the Swedish club is also outside the MVD protocol as it allows breeding at 24 months) -- but it is not the MVD protocol.

Auscultation by a specialist -- NOT a vet -- is what is generally used.

Could you please answer the question about what sort of examination is done for the issuing of a heart certificate whether this is ausculation or ultra sound, or even farb doppler?

I see while I was typing the above you answered..

why not a vet - is the education of a vet in the uk particularly restricted that they can not hear a murmerß

how loing is the trainign for a vet in the UK?

Background to the protocol from the CKCSC:

Heart Symposium - 1998

May 16th, 1998 was a historical one for Cavalier fanciers. Through the extraordinary efforts of Randi Rosvoll and Bob Sims, a panel consisting of a geneticist from Sweden and 4 veterinary cardiologists representing various countries were assembled to pass on their extensive knowledge of mitral valve disease (MVD) in Cavaliers and to give us direction in determining what strategies we can use to combat this dreadful affliction.

Click to expand...

The symposium discussion:

http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/formsdocs.nsf/filelookup/98heartsymp.PDF/$file/98heartsymp.PDF

And from that very 1998 heart symposium, at which the MVD protocol was drawn up -- does this sound vaguely familiar, folks? A LOT familiar? These are exactly the same arguments being made for why people can't remove dogs from breeding programmes based 'just' on poor MRIs...

There was mention of our breed
initially starting with only 4 dogs and
consequently our gene pool is very
small and would Cavaliers ever be
“free” of MVD. Lennart Swenson felt
that more than 4 dogs were used in the
beginning but it really didn’t matter
since all breeds began with just a few
dogs (6-8 in Cocker Spaniels, etc.). He
said the goal is not to rid the breed of
MVD but to have all Cavaliers die a
natural death before they get MVD,
then it’s no longer a problem.

If every, or at least most, breeders
followed the breeding protocol, how
many generations would it take to see
results? Lennart Swenson said that by
using the Swedish protocol and with
good compliance, you would see a
major improvement in just 1 generation.
However it wouldn’t be until those
puppies were 7-9 years old that you
would actually be able to confirm that
an increased percentage of them were
still murmur free. He said in 2-3
generations you will have a much better
situation but ONLY IF YOU
ACTUALLY USE THESE
TECHNIQUES. He most fears that
breeders will not follow the program.

How did the Swedes come up with
the ages in their breeding protocol?
They used 5 years and heart-clear
because of the bell curve showing that
about 1⁄2 of Cavaliers had already gotten
a murmur by 5 years and 21⁄2 years was
selected because it is half of 5.

The panelists said that 14 months
old was the youngest age at which
they’ve detected a mitral valve murmur.

Some folks worried that there will
not be very many heart-clear 5 year old
sires to breed to and too many dogs
would be eliminated from the breeding
population. Lennart Swenson said that
when breeders say they can’t afford to
cut out this much of the population
they forget that they already do just
that. They only breed about 10% of
males and the rest are cut out of the
population because of their lack of
“beauty”. Breeders are willing to make
hard decisions and cut away a lot of
dogs for the beautification of the breed
but when they discuss hearts, suddenly
it is different. Swenson finds that very
“peculiar”.

Click to expand...

If so little has changed with hearts... many worry there will equally be little progress with SM. Testing hearts by a cardiologist is in most countries fairly cheap and accessible thanks to club programmes. But dogs are very obviously still being bred way outside the protocol, at 12 months,m 15 months, 18 months etc, and lots are only vet tested, which means only a 50/50 chance of getting the test right. :-|

There have been studies that show vets DEFINITELY miss about half of early onset murmurs up to about age 5-6 in dogs. OFA in the US will not accept results from anything but a cardiologist because a vet test is meaningless -- a 50/50 chance of getting it right is not a test.

This is exactly the same issue with heart murmurs being picked up by human GPs. Or lung disease. Specialists easily hear problems that generalists do not. It is due to experience and focused study and the fact that they listen to hearts all the time. Vets are generally only doing a quick test. Some vets are definitely very good at getting murmurs and grades right though.

There are studies out there on this issue.



The UK club no longer accepts dogs for its 'Healthy Hearts' list that have not been cardiologist certified clear because of this issue.

I see. Ultrasound also pick up on problems which can not be heard by auscultation. This is why many stud dog owners do that in addition to auscultation.

I understand the protocol now, and with my choice I understand that I would not be keeping to that, but I think in this case i could live with that and still not consider myself a bad breeder.

The dog in question ist 2 years 2 months old he is heart clear as confirmed by uascultation and ultrasound. His father is 12, and developed grade 1 at the age of 9 years and around 6 months. His mother is 8 and is clear. I would be happy to compromise the 4 months simply because 2,5 is half of 5.
The bitch is nearly five years old and heart cleared as confirmed by auscultation and ultrasound.

sorry I have seen I made a typing error in my first post - I meant to write we follow different rules than the mvd protocol but i left one word out

"Lennart Swenson said that
when breeders say they can’t afford to
cut out this much of the population
they forget that they already do just
that. They only breed about 10% of
males and the rest are cut out of the
population because of their lack of
“beauty”. Breeders are willing to make
hard decisions and cut away a lot of
dogs for the beautification of the breed
but when they discuss hearts, suddenly
it is different. Swenson finds that very
“peculiar”."


This certainly gives one cause to to wonder.......

J.

Breeders are willing to make
hard decisions and cut away a lot of
dogs for the beautification of the breed
but when they discuss hearts, suddenly
it is different

Click to expand...

Good point...and agreed "very peculiar"

yes the quote is quite poignant - but if you are going to expect UK breeders to keep to the protocol, then it means determining a dog ist heart clear at 2,5 years not when it is a puppy. You can assess confirmation at an age of 8 weeks when choosing puppies to keep, you can not assess the heart a dog is supposed to have at 2,5 years at 8 weeks.
It is always sad when the wrong choice is made.

I had a separate discussion once with a dog owner about Arnold chiari - she was of the opinion that the goal should be to eradicate that. I pointed out o.k. if one were to do this, then every bitch puppy that is sold by a breeder is essentially not sold but loaned to their new owner, and if their head develops correctly the owner will be forced to give the puppy back to the breeder to breed with. How else would one find sufficient dogs - this was not a popular choice - so she dropped the subject.

but if you are going to expect UK breeders to keep to the protocol, then it means determining a dog ist heart clear at 2,5 years not when it is a puppy. You can assess confirmation at an age of 8 weeks when choosing puppies to keep, you can not assess the heart a dog is supposed to have at 2,5 years at 8 weeks.

Click to expand...

I'm going to say for any breeder rather than specifically UK breeders ...and completely agree.

I do not feel auscultation (or is it ausculation - i do not know) is sufficient at such a young age, as many faults need to be diagnosed with ultrasound, but it is easy for me to say, as it is not too expensive here - it may be expensive somewhere else.
I find it a sufficient for an older dog - or a bitch who has had puppies as the physical stress can bring to light a hidden heart defect.
But if a population is so ill still - it may have no choice but to accept hidden defects - I do not know.

I noticed on this write up about the Malvern show, there was mention of the heart clinics right at the show.

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Breeds/BreedNotes/10-CAV

"The trade stands were full of tempting goodies and heart and eye-testing were available."

I am wondering if at these heart clinics there is also a hand out of the MVD protocol?

I do think it is a terrible example that some of the winning dog's kennels and owners set.

If you google the winner of the Malvern show you find this litter.

http://www.freewebs.com/lourisma/carsanendlessmagic.htm

This is the litter announcement of the dam on champdogs.uk

http://www.champdogs.co.uk/puppy/8055.html

Would it not be prudently important, and I would even say ethical, of the owners of these high profile dogs to insist on the dams they breed to be heart tested and over 30 months? These are the leading kennels in the breed, after all.

Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky mix, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier

Personally, I think 'beautification' should be forgotten about for the meantime. Breeders should be focusing on health and soundness rather than looks. Establish the future of the breed and then worry about apperances.

Realistically, though, it's not gonna happen. Breeding and pet buying just isn't set up that way, unless you say that a handful of breeders should keep every pup they breed until the dog is old enough to be screened for SM at least and then make their keeper decisions, but that's totally impractical from an economic perspective.

Hello,

prompted by Karlin's post about the studies etc.. I contacted the head of our "Zuchtbuch" this is the person who runs our "stud book" and is responsible for our breeding guidelines. Our club supports many companion dog breeds, and as such the rules for cavaliers are just one of many.
I asked her whether we needed the ability to allow male dogs aged 3 to breed with grade 1 heart. Her answer was no not from the heart perspective.
I think I need to give a bit of background, in our club a dog must provide the person who runs our studbook with a heart certificate, a for a bitch you have to provide one prior to her being mated and the certificate my not be older than 4 weeks, usually when she is on heat you get the certificate done. This means that she has a certificate for every male dog in breeding for every year. Many breeders to do mate their girls every year and so she will have fewer for that.
She informed me that we do not have a single dog aged 3 with a certificate of grade 1 - they are all clear. We only have one dog at stud in the club with mvd - he is (8 years old and is grade 1.
The person running our stud book will not change the rules (I am not saying she refuses too, but she sees no need to change them, especially as there are no affected males dogs at stud of that age). She prefers to keep the rules as they are. We are currently undertaking everything we can to get puppy buyers to report on the health of their dogs in particular to receive any reports on SM - we need to watch this, we have selection methods in place for it - but will leave the heart rules as they are - we do not know what will happen in the future regarding the SM issue.

kind regards,
Katherine

Thanks for that info -- very interesting to know how other clubs manage this issue!

Also relevant to this thread, crossposted from the main Pedigree Dogs thread on the Malvern dog regarding the MVD protocol and this dog. His first litter was sired at just NINE MONTHS old and there were 13 more -- 6 litters before he was even one.

I have a feeling, sadly, that this is not an isolated case.

These are statistics verified by the Kennel Club records:

Born on 3 Oct 2003. He has had at least 35 litters, producing a total of 128 pups (I think more since then as there are two litters on the ground now).

He was MRId around 16 months. After diagnosis, he went on to sire 23 of these litters (77 pups).

He performed 14 matings which resulted in litters before the age of 2.5 years (given a 62-day pregnancy).

Litter birthdate/ Number of pups

05/08/2004 6
11/10/2004 5
05/11/2004 5
25/11/2004 1
06/12/2004 1
27/12/2004 5

(early 2005 = MRI)

22/02/2005 8
24/02/2005 5
07/03/2005 2
18/03/2005 3
19/03/2005 5
10/04/2005 5
27/05/2005 5
01/06/2005 5

(now age 2.5 years)

13/07/2005 4
22/08/2005 3
23/09/2005 6
25/09/2005 3
19/12/2005 2
29/01/2006 1
25/03/2006 2
27/03/2006 2
05/06/2006 5
19/06/2006 6
18/07/2006 3
18/07/2006 4
26/08/2006 5
27/09/2006 2
22/10/2006 4
?? 0 (litter aborted - registered 19/03/2007)
18/11/2006 6
04/01/2007 2
16/03/2007 1
07/04/2007 1
23/05/2007 3
10/12/2007 2

No wonder the MVD statistics are not improving.

Too bad this information wasn't included in the BBC program, along with the names of everyone involved.