Pedigree Dogs Exposed: part two

Katherine, speaking for myself I am upset with the bunch of them, the woman exposed, the breeders who own the bitches, and as well, when looking behind in pedigree, the breeders of this stud dog who seem to disregard MVD and SM protocal as well. His sire had 20 litters already (World Pedigrees) well before the minimum 2 and a half year age minimum.

As it appears the information regarding the scan was not a secret I am upset with others surrounding these dogs, as well, for the "code of omerta" that is being followed by many.

I love this page "The Biggest Problem" which I think very appropriately describes some of what is going on here.

http://devinefarm.net/rp/biggest.htm

I hope and pray that this kind of exposure will make some of the breeders involved think - for the sake of Cavaliers!

Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier

Arlene, that article is excellent. You are so correct that it describes this situation dead on.
J.

It is absolutely true that it takes two to tango. It isn't hard to go find the dams that were bred but the question is: were the owners told of the dog's MRI result? The focus is also on the sire because the dog was knowingly bred after advice was given not to breed -- and further bred even after the confrontation at the Malvern show.

But again, let's set aside SM and look at MVD. The MVD protocol has been around for a decade. The health reps of all the clubs advise puppy buyers -- at least pet buyers! -- to only ever buy puppies from breeders who can show heart certs and who follow the MVD protocol. Yet this one dog is testimony that breeders themselves totally disregard this protocol and breed/obtain dogs in disregard for the protocol (as pointed out earlier, this dog, his father and grandsire were all bred well outside the MVD protocol). This dog was bred over and over long before the MVD protocol age of 2.5 years, starting from when he was NINE MONTHS OLD. Indeed he had had SIX litters and 23 puppies from matings that happened up to the point he was only a YEAR old, 14 litters by the time he reached the minimum age of the MVD protocol.

Some of the breeders involved are some of the best known names in the UK. The club puppy gazette will indicate the owners of the dams. If they care so little about MVD in the breed, what hope anyone will ever use any of Sarah Blott's estimated breeding values for SM? Surely it is past the time the clubs stopped this lip service about valuing health and actually DID something about it? No wonder the club's own cardiologist adviser, Simon Swift, is so exasperated!

These are statistics verified by the Kennel Club records:

Born on 3 Oct 2003. He has had at least 35 litters, producing a total of 128 pups (I think more since then as there are two litters on the ground now).

He was MRId around 16 months. After diagnosis, he went on to sire 23 of these litters (77 pups).

He performed 14 matings which resulted in litters before the age of 2.5 years (given a 62-day pregnancy).

Litter birthdate/ Number of pups

05/08/2004 6
11/10/2004 5
05/11/2004 5
25/11/2004 1
06/12/2004 1
27/12/2004 5

(early 2005 = MRI)

22/02/2005 8
24/02/2005 5
07/03/2005 2
18/03/2005 3
19/03/2005 5
10/04/2005 5
27/05/2005 5
01/06/2005 5

(now age 2.5 years)

13/07/2005 4
22/08/2005 3
23/09/2005 6
25/09/2005 3
19/12/2005 2
29/01/2006 1
25/03/2006 2
27/03/2006 2
05/06/2006 5
19/06/2006 6
18/07/2006 3
18/07/2006 4
26/08/2006 5
27/09/2006 2
22/10/2006 4
?? 0 (litter aborted - registered 19/03/2007)
18/11/2006 6
04/01/2007 2
16/03/2007 1
07/04/2007 1
23/05/2007 3
10/12/2007 2

NINE MONTHS OLD. Indeed he had had SIX litters and 23 puppies from matings that happened up to the point he was only a YEAR old, 14 litters by the time he reached the minimum age of the MVD protocol

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I can't even begin to tell you how disturbing I find this!!! He sired that many puppies before he was even a year old?? That is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start.

Karlin, thank you for listing those.

I do believe you missed a very important early litter born in Canada.

One offspring can be found here, a girl born 23/10/2004, sired by Beauella Radzinski.

http://www.ackcsc.org/2007national.htm

This girl is also the littermate to "Lucky", the SM afflicted Cavalier written about by Cheryl Gilbert in a letter that has been crossposted somewhere on this list. She has another littermate in the USA as well who has been DNA profiled, which means probably bred.

Arlene and her three: J P - Alaskan Husky, Missie - Cavalier x Tibetan Spaniel, Rocky - All Sporty Cavalier

Ah thanks -- yes as they were not KC registered puppies, the litter wouldn't appear on the KC stats.

I have a question relating to SM, and since this is such a hopping board I thought i would come pester you all with it

Seeing the description of SM on this program, and reading about it online, I am confused as to how this can affect older dogs.

I would imagine that we would be seeing symptoms as soon as the dog was growing and matured to their full adult size? Forgive my ignorance, but do their brains continue to grow after they have reached one or two years of age?

Or is the problem existing from the beginning, but the constant smushing and wear and tear is what makes symptoms not show up until later?

Is there ever an age, without doing an MRI scan, where you can assume your cavalier is not likely to develop these symptoms. A line in the sand to make it and breath a sigh of relief?

Also, I saw on this thread (or another about the same topic) the evolution of cavalier's head shapes and skull formations. Does the shape of your dogs head play any role at all? Are more "standardized" and flatter faced dogs more likely or is there nor real evidence to suggest that.

My cavalier Franklin http://flickr.com/photos/24034832@N08/2627442738/ has a relatively long nose compared to some cavaliers so, naturally, I am curious.

Hearing that perhaps 50% of cavaliers might be affected with SM, and the fact that I have two... ack it's just a scary thought. :neutral:

SM is the development of syrinxes in the spine, nothing to do with the brain directly. Indirectly, probably yes. This is my explanation on www.smcavalier.com:

What is syringomyelia?
Syringomyelia (sir IN go my EEL ya), or SM, is a potentially painful condition caused by a skull malformation -- the Chiari-like malformation (CM), similar to the Chiari malformation in humans -- that makes the skull too small for the brain. CM often forces the brain to squeeze (herniate) through the opening into the spinal cord. This obstructs the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) circulating around the brain and spine, causing pressure to rise, similar to placing a thumb over the nozzle of a garden hose. This turbulence can create pockets of fluid (syrinxes) in the spinal cord that press on nerves, which can cause pain and disability. There is no cure -- the aim of treatment is to alleviate pain.

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Whether skull size or shape has anything to do with it has not been proven. An initial study showed no correlation but I believe more is to be published on this -- this month.

SM and symptoms can develop at any point in the dog's life as the condition is generally progressive. There is no point at which a dog can be said to be clear unless it doesn't have the malformation at all, which is relatively rare. I know of cavaliers that only became symptomatic after age 10 and others at 12 weeks so it is highly variable.

Nose length isn't really believed to have anything major to do with it. Being a toy breed apparently does. Small breeds with long noses, like yorkies and dachshunds and poodles, and chihuahuas, also have been reported with it. However shorter nosed breeds including cavaliers seem more disposed. The two top breeds are cavaliers and then Brussels griffons.

One human SM specialist who spoke at the first SM conference in London noted that the condition remained an enigma even after 30-40 years of study. It remains poorly understood.

Karlin said:

So let's forget SM entirely for the moment. The MVD protocol has been around for a decade. The clubs -- and their health representatives -- have long advocated using this and tell puppy buyers to ONLY go to breeders who can show the proper heart clearances and where the parents are of appropriate age.

Yet these top winning dogs, who especially in the case of boys, may father hundreds of puppies -- are being bred by breeders who are NOT following the heart protocol, the most basic breeding protocol in the breed because MVD is the number one killer of the breed.

Think about it.

And please: ASK for certs the next time anyone buys a puppy and ASK for grandparents certs and CONFIRM the age of the parent dogs!! Walk away from any breeder who cannot produce cardiologist (not vet!) certs for both parent and grandparent generations and where the dogs are under the age of the MVD protocol.

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Karlin,

I couldn't agree more. It took me 18mths to find a good breeder who was prepared to show me (and also provide photocopies of) these certificates for both dam and sire and their parents. Maxx's parents were 5 and 6 when he was born and they are both still going strong.

He is now 9 and not a sign of any sort of murmur at all. I know he has SM but thankfully, at the moment it's not causing him too many problems. He still thinks he's a puppy and when Geraint takes him out for his long walk, he runs most of the way and keeps looking at Geraint as if to say 'come on, shift your bum I want to go faster'. He could run for at least a mile and still not be out of breath

Saying that, he's snoring his head off at the moment after getting a new tricolour cavalier toy as a belated birthday present and gving it what for at playtime LOL :rotfl:

It is two weeks since the programme was shown & the repercussions for me have not ended

I said on the film that I had seen the BIS winning dog's MRI scan and it showed he had SM.

The scan was not shown to me in confidence, it was openly being shown around a dog show as other exhibitors can confirm.
There was no breach of confidentiality, I did not start receiving certificates for the voluntary MRI list until 6 months later &, as it started as a list for 'clear' cavaliers, this dog most certainly was not eligible

Now it appears there is a petition going round the UK shows with the aim of getting me expelled from Cavalier Club

Have a look at....http://sm.cavaliertalk.com/news.htm 'Looking in the mirror'

Welcome to my world

Margaret C

So sorry you have to endure this, Margaret. I guess they are at "Circling the wagons". What can we do to help?

Margaret, there must be something we can do. You are not alone; you have many supporters here.

Margaret C said:

It is two weeks since the programme was shown & the repercussions for me have not ended

I said on the film that I had seen the BIS winning dog's MRI scan and it showed he had SM.

The scan was not shown to me in confidence, it was openly being shown around a dog show as other exhibitors can confirm.
There was no breach of confidentiality, I did not start receiving certificates for the voluntary MRI list until 6 months later &, as it started as a list for 'clear' cavaliers, this dog most certainly was not eligible

Now it appears there is a petition going round the UK shows with the aim of getting me expelled from Cavalier Club


ave a look at....http://sm.cavaliertalk.com/news.htm 'Looking in the mirror'

Welcome to my world

Margaret C

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Margarret I am so sorry that certain people are so small mind
what you are saying is for the good of the breed
many thanks for getting up and doing what a lot of people on here would like to do if we could
---Aileen and (Barney---Jazzie)

Margaret,

My first post here, but I have been following the subject and writing to everybody possible (as suggested by Beverley Cuddy on the Cold Wet Nose blog).

I am so sorry to hear that these blinkered people can't see that unless there are people like you who are willing to act the future of the CKCS is pretty grim.

I wrote to Jemima from Passionate Productions earlier this week to thank her for the programme as it has brought the problems with Cavaliers (and many others) to public attention, and this will hopefully lead to change. She replied saying that she is getting a lot of grief from 'a certain element' within the Cavalier community - no doubt the same people who are rounding on you. How sad that these Cavalier 'lovers' care more about their own egos than the future of this lovely breed.

I haven't written to the CKCS yet (on my list) but I will be doing so today. I don't suppose it wil change anybody's attitude there, but at least I will feel I am doing something, and I can add my disgust at their treatment of somebody who truly has the dogs welfare at heart.

I have two Cavaliers Toby (11) and Rufus (1) - so far they are ok, but I know know that SM can appear at any time. I think the breeder I got Rufus from was one of the good ones - she had heart certificates for the mum and dad - also, we had quite a long conversation about how it's better to have an older sire as any health problems will show up. But of course there are no guarantees about SM, and I didn't ask the questions, as at the time, I didn't know much about it.

As I say, I am following all the blogs so that if there is anything I can do I will know. You have a lot of support Margaret, and we need people like you and Carol Fowler. The Kennel Club are not going to do anything voluntarily so it's going to be up to public pressure to move attitudes.

My very best wishes to you. Jan

Thanks for all the encouragement.

This week the 'Dog World' paper has again described the film as a 'Wake up call' in articles by boxer breeder & geneticist Dr Bruce Cattanach & championship show judge Andrew Brace.

Dr Cattanach writes " I feel sorry for the Cavaliers. On top of their heart disease they now have this truly horrific disease ,syringomyelia"

The Cavalier breed notes however, written by a friend of the BIS winner who has used the dog in question three times I believe, and exported a champion dog sired by him to Canada, are a graphic illustration of the article described in my post above.
They are a complete denial about the scale of the problem.

The opinions of a human rheumatologist who is married to a cavalier breeder in Australia are aired again.
Does anyone really think that this man can possibly know more than the neurologist that took this dog's scan & all the other researchers into this condition?

Do your best to get a copy if you can, I think you will find these breed notes make very interesting reading.

Margaret C

Well, just spent most of the morning composing a letter to the Kennel Club and the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club which I will post today.

Not that they will take any notice of it, but I feel a lot better having done something positive.

Jan
Owned by Toby and Rufus

Well done Jan

Trying to talk to the K.C is a total waste of time from my own experience. I can't see that they care about animal welfare at all, it's all about the money.

They revoked a breeders Accredited status last year under much pressure due to complaints regarding the awful conditions from where I picked up an older throw out from. Believe me this place was a hell hole for those dogs, Cavaliers and Shelties together, a filthy stinking place. Unbelievable outdoor living conditions.

Yesterday I notice they have her yet again selling more Cavalier pups on the K.C puppy list just without the Accredited Breeders status. I talk to them and they inform me that they are "A Registration Agency" she is able to use them regardless of whats happened it's just useless.

Those poor dogs. I'm furious they allow this to continue.

Alison.

So sorry Margaret

I too offer you my full support Margaret, as you know I knew of this dogs condition 2 years ago and I also knew that the scan was being taken around the show rings. Not an active shower now I am still a member of the CKCS and have written asking for the breeder of the best in show at Malvern to be banned from the club membership and from having any dealings with the breed or for that matter any other breed again, I have also stated that I and my husband would no longer be prepared to continue our membership if this was not enforced.

Margaret C said:

It is two weeks since the programme was shown & the repercussions for me have not ended

I said on the film that I had seen the BIS winning dog's MRI scan and it showed he had SM.

The scan was not shown to me in confidence, it was openly being shown around a dog show as other exhibitors can confirm.
There was no breach of confidentiality, I did not start receiving certificates for the voluntary MRI list until 6 months later &, as it started as a list for 'clear' cavaliers, this dog most certainly was not eligible

Now it appears there is a petition going round the UK shows with the aim of getting me expelled from Cavalier Club

Have a look at....http://sm.cavaliertalk.com/news.htm 'Looking in the mirror'

Welcome to my world

Margaret C

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Margaret,

It's at times like this that I wish I was a member of the Cavalier Club. I am completely disgusted at the behaviour of many of the breeders I have encountered (the backer of the breeder on the show being one - as I'm sure you already know!).

If there's anything I can do then don't hesitate to let me know. You have my email addy and I can send my phone number if you need a chat.

Some of these breeders seem to think they are better than the rest of us, know more and do as they please - after all they show and we are only pet owners....

Thing is, some of us have probably done more research into our beloved breed and have closer relationships than they will ever believe.

Makes me so very angry - I am here if you need me! x