View Full Version : CKCS mixed with English Toy Spaniel
7th September 2008, 08:04 PM
Hi all, I'm new to the board (yay!) and I'm also new to the Cavalier world. I had been on a rescue list for cavaliers here in the US for over two years without any hope of rescuing one. Thankfully, the number of dogs in need seem to be fewer than the people who love Cavs. (or at least according to the rescue organizations)
I decided to search for a Cav in other venues, i.e. shelters, breeders etc. Since my shepherd mix Shadow had died in March, I was greatly missing the companionship and friendship of a dog. I found a woman that breeds a somewhat small number of her Champion dogs and raises them all in her home. She had a litter of CKCS/English Toy Spaniel mixes. Mum is the English Toy, only 10 pounds, dad is the Cav, at 22 pounds. Both are registered, heart cleared, healthy dogs. Dad is 6, mum is almost 3.
I'm wondering if anyone here has had or known of a CKCS/English Toy mix before. I am hoping that having the mixed bloodlines will help my newest family member to be as healthy as can be and live a long, happy life.
I've done my research on both breeds, so I am aware of the common history of both breeds, I've just never known anyone with this mix before.
Her name is Reina and she is 18 weeks (born 4-26-08). She is blenheim and looks like a purebred Cav. (She had a sister who looked more like an English Toy). She weighs in at 8 pounds right now...and knows Sit, Stay, Lay Down, Spin Around, and is learning more each day!
I've been amazed at how intelligent she is, and how loving she is also. I didn't have to teach her Fetch, she knew how that worked the day I brought her home!
She sleeps all night in bed with my fiance and I (she sleeps on a pillow between our heads) and loves to cuddle at any chance she gets. She loves everyone she meets, be they human or canine, or even feline!
I couldn't ask for a better dog, and I'd love to know anything anyone knows about Cav/Toy mixes. Thanks!!
7th September 2008, 08:07 PM
I am hoping that having the mixed bloodlines will help my newest family member to be as healthy as can be and live a long, happy life.
I'm sorry but mixing two pedigree dogs will never insure a healthier dog. You just pass on the genetic problems of both breeds.
7th September 2008, 08:21 PM
Hi there, welcome to the board, if thats her in your opic, she is beautiful, I know nothing about English Toys, but if she's anything like a Cav, you'l be blessed with a loving companion:)
7th September 2008, 08:33 PM
I guess the important thing is that the parents are heart clear. I assume this was an unintentional mating?
If you like the pup and feel it's a good fit for your home then go for it, but just because it's a mixed breed don't make assumptions that it'll be healthier.
Both cavaliers and English toys are prone to heart problems so it's a case of fingers crossed. You're quite possibly taking a leap into the unknown as there are so few English toys around that it's rare to see them being mated with anything other than an English toy.
8th September 2008, 01:22 AM
I'd start by saying I hope these were rescue puppies and she was not actually selling crossbreeds. Sometimes accidental crosses happen with show breeders but I cannot believe she shows dogs and deliberately produced a cross litter -- she would be removed from her breed clubs for doing so.
Now that you have one of the puppies I would simply enjoy her and if you paid this woman, write that off to experience -- but keep in mind that you have a cross that can have all sorts of potential problems that are common to these closely related breeds, as they have all the same ancestors. King Charles spaniels have basically ALL the same issues plus at least one additional one -- they are more prone to hydrocephalus than CKCS. But they have heart issues, patella issues, syringomyelia (though at a lower incidence level than CKCS).
A heart clear three year old means little I am afraid unless the parents' heart status is known. Also, are these cardiologist tested or vet tested? Vet tested means nothing, too. And because parents appear outwardly healthy says nothing about the genetic load they carry -- good breeders breed very cautiously with as much knowledge as possible of the recessive health issues in both lines. I doubt very much a breeder who is casually crossing dogs will have any knowledge at all about the dogs behind the parents -- it is the bigger picture that always matters, NOT just the parents.
Keep in mind that no reputable health focused breeder would ever have sold two dogs on open registration, so that they could casually breed them. :( Especially not English Toys (King Charles), they are already a rare breed and the last thing any responsible breeder would do would be to be crossing them. But again perhaps this was an accidental litter from a serious show breeder, that had gone too far to terminate.
I am sorry if that is disappointing to hear, but it is the simple truth and there are so many people who take advantage of others' good intentions by selling crosses. If it was an accidental cross and she was placing the pups, then really, you face pretty much the same health issues and should just be familiar with them in case. :thmbsup:
8th September 2008, 01:30 AM
Your icon is too adorable! What a lovely little girl :luv:
I am no expert and I don't want to turn your thread negative, but there were some very well intentioned cautions mentioned! With any puppy that is predisposed to these heart breaking conditions, don't take anything for granted. Make sure that you get your new baby insured, feed her the very best food and keep her healthy, active and in shape. We all do the very best we can for our dogs, and sometimes SM, MVD or other devastating tragedies happen but the important thing is to just enjoy the time we have with them and prepare as best we can! :thmbsup:
I know that many people disagree with me her, but I think that breeding dogs of various species is a trend I would like to see continued. Obviously, health factors need to come into play more than they might be at the moment, but widening the gene pool for lovable pet mutts seems like a great idea to me! I think it ought to be done in addition to others preserving and improving upon purebred dogs to preserve the breed but I think little mixed breed puppies can make wonderful pets and might help to reduce some of the more prevalent conditions that pop up more and more with such a limited gene pool and so much inbreeding.
8th September 2008, 03:24 AM
Personally, I agree with Franklin here. Cross-breeding is something I support, as long as it is done responsibly (although I realize in many cases it isn't). I would like to see more mixes like my pup. The breeder has been breeding for 20 years and raised the grandmothers of both my pup's parents (whose health history she disclosed to me.) Both parents were heart cleared by a cardiologist and have had MRI's to look for SM.
While this was an accidental litter, I don't think it's a bad thing to widen the dogs' gene pool. At least I know my pup's mother didn't breed with her son!
Would it be so bad to combine English Toys and Cavaliers back into one breed, like they started?
And I couldn't be happier with my newest addition to the family, and I know she's happy as can be!
8th September 2008, 04:35 AM
She really is adorable! More pictures please!! :D
While I appreciate the distinctiveness of the breeds and would be sorry to see them all meld together officially, I think that mixed dogs (with healthy parents) can make wonderful pets!
I was sorry to see the "designer dog" thing taking off in petstores predominantly -- because I think allot of the crossbreeds were quite beneficial to the health of the animal, especially in the long run!
The healthiest dog I've known is a 16 year old cockapoo who (other than some arthritis and generic aging) is absolutely fit as a fiddle. Puggles typically don't have the breathing problems that pugs are prone to and I remember reading that goldendoodles were less likely than pure bred golden retrievers to get cancer.
If I am not mistaken, many of the conditions that affect our dogs exist because of excessive inbreeding. I mean, that is how you get a purebred dog to begin with -- even if it was generations ago. To take a wolf and turn it into a little cavalier with specific traits and colors and temperament in a relatively short period of time... well, we all know the story. This is supposedly why purebred dogs are less healthy than mutts.
Of course creating a mutt on purpose (from healthy parents) is likely to yield a dog with better odds at being healthy than a purebred dog, simply because they come from different lines and a broader gene pool.
Of course, if the "designer dog" thing continues, it can have the same problems as purebred dogs -- as with any sort of breeding for a "look". I don't see why this is so frowned upon though, so long as original breeds are able to be preserved and improved upon. Maybe I'm just crazy though :rolleyes:
8th September 2008, 12:02 PM
May I remind people that this is NOT a breeding discussion board and if you are new or have forgotten board rules, please read the Getting Started section on what is allowable for discussion, please.
I only just posted on this issue (http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=26676) on why crossbreeds are NOT necessarily any improvement. If you have parents, even seemingly outwardly healthy parents, that carry recessive traits than they can all show up. The problem with crossing two toy breeds is that they all share many of the exact same problems -- hearts, patellas, SM to start -- and hence you may only be introducing greater PROBLEMS even in a first generation cross. Trying to breeding healthy genes back into a breed from outcrossings takes careful breeding across MANY generations -- not just throwing a bunch of toy breeds together.
What saddens me is that Petfinder and pounds and shelters are full of crosses many of which are in situations where they will die if not rehomed, yet unscrupulous breeders sell the same mixes for ridiculous prices and advertise them as 'healthier' even though they cannot possibly have started with top quality breeding dogs in the first place as no one breeding for health would sell dogs on open registration!
Petfinder is also packed with cavaliers all over the country -- and Lucky Star currently has at least 29 dogs looking for homes -- so there are many, many cavaliers rescues out there and cavalier crosses. I advise anyone actively seeking such a cross to use Petfinder please, or visit your local shelter or pound, and save a life. :thmbsup:
I am closing this thread as defending such breeders and discussing how to breed crosses is not and has never been an acceptable topic. This board is dedicated to healthy cavaliers, and supporting reputable breeders in this breed.
If people are looking for informed discussions on breed genetics there are discussion lists on this very complex topic. On such lists you will quickly find that outwardly healthy parents do not make for healthy offspring due to the high number of recessive genetic conditions in dogs. You need to know lines and the complexity of genetics to breed anything properly.
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