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View Full Version : CKCS Club SGM on 5 October re: Margaret C



Jan Bell
12th September 2008, 08:42 AM
I've started a new thread as I don't want this request to get lost among all the posts.

I would really like to go to this meeting as I am a member and therefore have a vote. Normally not a problem, but I will still be on crutches and can't drive so I am stuck.

If anybody from Surrey, Essex, Kent or anywhere near me is planning to go and has car space, would you consider giving me a lift - petrol costs shared of course.

I feel very strongly that we have to support Margaret C, so should this meeting go ahead I would like to be there. Hope that somebody out there can help.

Alison_Leighfield
12th September 2008, 08:56 AM
It would be a good idea to find others in our own areas as well to share lifts with.

Is anyone going from the Wiltshire area? Swindon, Chippenham, Bath, Bristol etc along the M4?

Alison.

sins
12th September 2008, 09:49 AM
Have members actually been informed of the SGM by the Club? Have they had any communication regarding the SGM or is there a protocol for issuing members with notice of one?

Jan Bell
12th September 2008, 10:03 AM
I had a letter yesterday giving notice of the meeting - 12 noon Sunday 5th.

wotton12000
12th September 2008, 10:03 AM
Hi Alison and All

If this meeting takes place, I will definitely be going in support of Margaret. Can pick you up on the way.

Carol

Jan Bell
12th September 2008, 10:05 AM
Carol,

Assume you mean the M4 route - do you know any members further down the country anywhere near me?

Alison_Leighfield
12th September 2008, 10:08 AM
Thanks Carol, will come with you then all being well.

Alison.

frecklesmom
12th September 2008, 07:28 PM
Bump

Ciren
12th September 2008, 08:12 PM
can non members go? where is it being held?

Alison_Leighfield
12th September 2008, 08:22 PM
Is there a postal vote option for members that cannot get there due to distance? I'm just thinking of others way down South. It will be a 6-7 hr drive for them.

Alison.

Karlin
12th September 2008, 09:03 PM
No, this vote requires people to be present. But I would wait to see what the club decides to do after legal consultations next week.

Alison_Leighfield
13th September 2008, 08:32 AM
Alot of travelling involved for many that weekend as it's the West of England Club Champ Show on the 4th October in Taunton.
Would have been better to have held the vote down South if it's a non postal vote where many would already be.

Alison.

frecklesmom
16th September 2008, 03:42 PM
Karlin, any idea when they will be doing the legal consults this week?


But I would wait to see what the club decides to do after legal consultations next week

Karlin
16th September 2008, 04:10 PM
Just waiting. :thmbsup:

Karlin
16th September 2008, 04:21 PM
By the way, as mentioned earlier, strangely -- and surely, inappropriately --the UK CKCS Club now has a message on its homepage announcing (bizarrely) that foreign members of the club can fly in for the SGM to vote.

How can this be?

Given that there's been no change to club rules to allow non-UK members to elect officials on the committee in the first place, or to vote in AGMs, how can they tally votes for non-UK members at an SGM, which generally has even more restricted voting regulations than AGMs? Does the notion of a club, with actual guiding regulations and standards, even apply any longer to the UK CKCS Club?

It is extraordinary that the club is now deliberately acting totally outside its own regulations. They are truly making themselves appear less like what they once seemed to be, a formal dog breeding club, and more like a vindictive kangaroo court making things up as they go along to hide wrongdoing and oust the whistleblower.

It seems anything goes now, in order to protect poor breeding practice from scrutiny and to hide away breeders who deliberately breed ill dogs, which is not just a violation of CKCS club ethics but Kennel Club ethics.

The question has to be asked: what does the UK CKCS Club stand for anymore? Given the recent evidence, it cannot be quality breeding, care for the breed, integrity, actively encouraged health initiatives, or God forbid, ensuring the high standards of breeding that the puppy buying public can rely on. The current actions must be deeply disturbing for good health focused breeders who once took pride in belonging to the club.

frecklesmom
16th September 2008, 06:24 PM
Following consultations and advice received from the Kennel Club, we can inform Overseas Members who wish to attend the Meeting, that they will be entitled to vote at the ballot.Does the Kennel Club have this much influence over the Clubs ? If so than this club should think hard about using any PR direction from KC as the KC isn't doing well with its own. To me it would seem prudent that the KC would not be involved in Club affairs.
This Club seems to be using selective enforcement of their rules-if they are angry with you than you're in violation-if they're happy with you do anything you want but don't tell. At sometime they got off the track of a credible organization and only because this became public is this all coming to light. It's hard to believe that they all of a sudden imploded. Maybe some of the branch clubs are of better stuff.

Cathy Moon
17th September 2008, 01:50 AM
Are they bringing in outside reinforcement in an attempt to shore up their numbers? :confused:

Just knowing about this club's behavior, you've got to wonder who would want to be a member after this! :eek:

Jan Bell
17th September 2008, 08:39 AM
Only thing is, if you remain a member you can at least have the satifaction of voting against certain members next year - and by post.

Otherwise, it would be tempting to just stop paying the ten quid a year. I will see how it goes.

Alison_Leighfield
17th September 2008, 10:26 AM
Perhaps it's time that a new club was born...one with breeders and members that really care.

Out with the dead wood etc....time to bring back some standards.

Alison

Jan Bell
17th September 2008, 11:17 AM
Yes, if a new club was formed I think I would make more effort to get involved this time and make sure I knew what was going on.

Cathy Moon
17th September 2008, 12:12 PM
Perhaps it's time that a new club was born...one with breeders and members that really care.

Out with the dead wood etc....time to bring back some standards.

Alison
I'm sure many would agree. The US has two CKCS clubs.

Out with the dead wood and bullies.

frecklesmom
23rd September 2008, 05:04 PM
* bump *

Jan Bell
26th September 2008, 09:00 AM
I have heard from Margaret today that this meeting will be going ahead.:mad:

It appears that there are no ground for challenging the SGM as there are two club rules that run parallel with each other and there is nothing to stop the CKCS club from considering this complaint regarding breaching the code of ethics. Apparently the complaint against Beverley Costello is being treated in accordance with 'normal procedures'

It would take two members voting against for every one member voting for Margaret to remove her from the Committee, but no doubt those voting against will be doing their best to attend the meeting, so it is important for anybody who can get to the meeting to go.

If Margaret is voted of the Committee we will lose the one person who is fighting for Cavalier health at the CKCS club. I really hope this doesn't happen.

Margaret has pointed out though, that in the event of her being removed by the votes of the small number of members who are able to get to the meeting, it would be possible to vote her back in next year;). This would be a postal vote and would therefore be more representative of the feelings of the majority of club members. With this in mind, if you are not a club member, regardless of how you feel about them, it could be a good move to join.

I think Margaret is being very courageous in standing her ground here. It would be easy to give up and resign, but to continue in this way simply proves how committed she is to the long term health of the Cavalier breed, unlike so many CKCS members.

Please get to the meeting if you can, and if anybody is going there from Surrey or the surrounding areas please bear me in mind, as I am currently unable to drive or walk without crutches, so I can only get there if I beg a lift! Otherwise I will just have to support from the sidelines and keep my fingers crossed.

Brian M
26th September 2008, 11:13 AM
Hi

With the help of our forum members just in the process of joining now ,have applied for a double membership for Dawn and I and i guess i know where my votes are going !.:thmbsup::thmbsup:

Ruth
26th September 2008, 12:04 PM
If Margaret is voted of the Committee we will lose the one person who is fighting for Cavalier health at the CKCS club. I really hope this doesn't happen.



I'm sorry Jan, what is your evidence for this? if this were true then the Cavalier as a breed is finished whether Margaret stays or not.

Ruth

Jan Bell
26th September 2008, 12:51 PM
Ruth,


I'm sorry Jan, what is your evidence for this? if this were true then the Cavalier as a breed is finished whether Margaret stays or not.

Ruth

Sorry, I take your point, and accept that this is not the case and this was more of an emotional statment than an accurate one. I know that there many people on this forum, not to mention Carol Fowler who are also campaigning for Cavalier health. But Margaret is, as far I know, the only Committe Member who was prepared to speak out. As such, she is in a stronger position if she stays a Committee Member. This was really what I meant when I said the 'one person'.

Margaret may not the only person standing up for the breed, but she was prepared to put herself on the line for this, and is now taking a lot of flack by speaking out. It is easy to say that you are supporting Cavalier health, not so easy to actually put yourself in the line of fire by trying to do something about it.

I appreciate that not all CKCS club breeders/members agree with her, but if the CKCS club are accepting, without comment, breeders that ignore protocols, something is wrong somewhere.

I'm not, and have never claimed to be, and expert on this - I've just spent a lot of time recently reading up on everything I can. As a result I am hoping for eventual changes which mean it will be mandatory to have health checks for breeding dogs. There may be no easy answer, but to carry on as it is doesn't seem to me to be an option.

Jan Bell
26th September 2008, 01:33 PM
Margaret may not the only person standing up for the breed, but she was prepared to put herself on the line for this, and is now taking a lot of flack by speaking out. It is easy to say that you are supporting Cavalier health, not so easy to actually put yourself in the line of fire by trying to do something about it.

I should have added to this, that one of the reasons why I keep posting in support of Margaret is that she is doing something I don't think I could do myself, and therefore has my admiration. :thmbsup:Ditto Carol Fowler. Appearing on National television in support of a controversial cause is never going to make life easy.

I am not naturally a campaigner, and writing letters and posting on boards comes with some difficulty. Indeed, I feel vaguely apprehensive whenever I get a reply in case it is unpleasant :eek: . On the other hand, I feel that if I care, I have to do something. Not much perhaps, but something.

At the very least, I am learning so much about the Cavalier breed I didn't know before, and will be in a better position when I want to buy another one. As I still can't imagine life without a Cavalier or two........ I just hope that in years to come the chances of getting a health Cavalier will increase due to this campaign.:xfngr:

Karlin
26th September 2008, 09:23 PM
I agree that keeping Margaret on the committee is very important for cavalier health as her name is directly associated with pretty much every health initiative to come out of the club and she herself has been the driver behind many of them herself. I cannot see who would pick up the slack if she were not to be there.

If people want to do ONE thing on behalf of cavaliers, make the time to attend this meeting if you are a club member, and see if you can carpool if needed to ease the transport problem. It may have dubious legality both in how it is being called and whether a committee member can be removed but if it is being held Margaret needs a presence there on her behalf..

I have had some high level legal advice, two separate legal experts, that this really has no legal grounds and would be so easily challenged as it is so questionable to proceed in this way -- there are absolutely no guidelines in the club rules for removing any committee member, whereas there are very clear guidelines for removing a member on the basis of the ethics guidelines -- and those have not been followed though this is said to be an ethics case. Any club with a constitution and regulations is essentially saying it can make up rules as it goes along if people simply decide they want to do this or that -- it makes a mockery of club operations to say we will use one set of rules if we feel like here, and make up some others if we feel like there.

The time may be approaching to assemble a dossier of evidence of the breeders who are known to have either rehomed dogs with SM or placed puppies that developed it and been directly informed by owners yet who have chosen to deliberately breed their dogs with dogs known to have scanned poorly, to have publicly claimed (and this is in print either in emails now, or posts to discussion boards) they have never bred a dog with SM and never heard from a single owner of a dog of their breeding and that the condition simply isn't a problem. And of the breeders who publicly tell others to follow the MVD protocol and only ever buy puppies from breeders who follow the protocol and themselves don't follow it and recommend puppies that were bred well outside the protocol.

Many of us are tired of the hypocrisy of some people saying things publicly that they know are not true, then attacking people who are actually working to support research, support health focused breeders, or reveal the level of disregard for breed health even at the basic level of the MVD protocol.

Some -- perhaps because they forget people can easily connect through the web -- totally underestimate how easy it is to gather evidence of poor breeding practice, of breeder lies about what they have seen in their own lines, and what they have bred (or sold abroad when they become symptomatic).

By contrast I think of the many good breeders who have immediately contacted puppy owners if there has been an SM or MVD diagnosis in a related dog of their breeding; who have pulled dogs from their breeding programmes on the basis of poor scans usually at a high price as these are people who may only have a few dogs to start with, who travel long distances for scanning and heart clinics (odd how many breeders complain it is too far to go to club-supported scanning clinics that would cost a measly £100 per cavalier yet regularly drive all over the country to attend dog shows!).

The issue is not whether breeders are producing dogs that do scan poorly or become symptomatic -- it would be hard not to have this happen from time to time even with the best of intentions given the current low level of scanning (and how weak the EBVs will be without continuing scanning information and results from the genome research). The issue is whether people lie about results, knowingly breed affected dogs, know they have produced affected dogs and publicly claim to have clear lines. It is not hard to catch those people gradually as owners of the dogs network and share scan and diagnosis information.

Far better to have at least one person on the national committees pushing hard for openness, scans, breed health programmes. Too many instead wish to bury health issues behind a wall of silence and support for the ones who knowingly breed health-compromised dogs.

Cathy Moon
2nd October 2008, 04:48 AM
*bump*

frecklesmom
2nd October 2008, 02:21 PM
bump

HollyDolly
2nd October 2008, 08:15 PM
bump

Please can someone enlighten me what is BUMP

frecklesmom
2nd October 2008, 08:28 PM
Hopefully it means bring post back up to front of thread-so something timely won't be overlooked. :)