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Karlin
14th September 2008, 01:43 PM
There are plans in the works to make it easier for all breeders and puppy buyers to get this kind of information. :) Almost every breeder I know who is breeding with an MRI and heart focus has a waiting list for puppies and I get a lot of enquiries every week for breeder contacts --plenty before Pedigree Dogs Exposed ever ran, so this is a growing demand from informed buyers, and even more since -- so people definitely want this information. And I know such breeders welcome buyers who have this health focus too are are very happy to go through MRI grading certs and often MRIs themselves and heart certs.

frecklesmom
15th September 2008, 08:23 PM
I thought that maybe this is a breath of fresh air
From the West England CKCS Club


The committee have decided to donate money from Club Funds to assist any member of the club wishing to have one of their dogs MRI scanned. The scheme will be limited to 25 dogs for the time being and £100 will be given to each owner on receipt of an invoice from the neurologist.
Members wishing to take advantage of this scheme may use a neurologist of their choice and should contact the secretary Mrs. Diane Searle for further information.

The CKCS Club (general) is now inviting out of country members to the Oct.5 meeting

*Pauline*
15th September 2008, 08:33 PM
The committee have decided to donate money from Club Funds to assist any member of the club wishing to have one of their dogs MRI scanned. The scheme will be limited to 25 dogs for the time being and £100 will be given to each owner on receipt of an invoice from the neurologist.
Members wishing to take advantage of this scheme may use a neurologist of their choice and should contact the secretary Mrs. Diane Searle for further information.

That's a great idea.

Karlin
15th September 2008, 08:39 PM
The Club must be mad -- as must the KC -- to want the vast amount of negative publicity they will get for holding an SGM. All that money spent on media advisors and a website by the KC will pale in comparison to the UK media running with a story about how the club have done nothing similarly public about the ethics complaints formally made against the breeder of the Malvern dog, which presumably must follow the exact same procedure, vs the lone person willing to identify this problem. :sl*p: They must truly have absolutely no comprehension of how these actions caused revulsion in the broader public.

In addition the club cannot act outside its own rules -- it cannot remove someone from a committee if it has no procedure for doing so in club regulations; anyone who belonged to any college society will know this -- I'd have thought a national dog club would be more copped on than they seem to be. As I know lots of prominent lawyers through my job, I've already taken legal advice on the issue, which for free, I will give to the club :) -- you cannot do this! All it can do is follow its own procedures for acting on an ethics question -- and they have not done so with Margaret Carter, which will make any action null and void and an SGM meaningless. But the bigger picture is the real issue -- they must be insane if they think making this topic even uglier and more public will help them boost the breed's and club's image and address falling puppy sales! They will be the laughingstock of the KC while even more cavalier puppies will sit getting older and older and older and ultimately unsaleable. I wonder how many cavalier breeders with litters they haven't been able to sell will find the national papers covering their SGM would help sales? icon_nwunsure The best (and free!) advice I can give the CKCS Club is: get a good media advisor firm or ask to use the KCs and get some proper advice! In PR terms, you are positioning your head on the guillotine right now!

On the other topic -- That's a great initiative from the West England club. :thmbsup:

Cathy Moon
16th September 2008, 01:21 AM
I guess they have enough rope to hang themselves. :-|

Just out of curiosity, will any journalists be covering this meeting?

frecklesmom
16th September 2008, 02:51 AM
The Club has to be totally not in touch with reality-it's enough to drive sane people nuts. Their own rules state


No dog which has a known physical defect that could be detrimental to the health and well being of the offspring or the breed in general should be used at stud. They object to this breach of rules, that no one was facing up to, being outed. How sad that they loose credibility but also be shown to have little integrity as a Club. These Club members make your head spin. Cavalier spaniels deserve a better representation.

Karlin
16th September 2008, 12:10 PM
I know that at least two formal ethics complaints -- the very same issue which the club is calling the SGM for with Margaret Carter -- were filed at the same time (if not before the petition) about breeder Beverly Costello, owner of Beauella Radzinski, to the club committee. Yet an SGM has only been called regarding Margaret. The procedure must be the same for both.

The club and breeders are totally clueless if they think they will achieve anything but the most self-destructive and pyrrhic of victories attacking the person who finally stood up and said out loud what they not only KNOW goes on but in which many themselves choose to PARTICIPATE in -- versus responsibly addressing the actual problem of shoddy, immoral, unethical breeding practice.

Through their current actions, their desperation is brutally obvious -- to protect an outmoded, cruel system that disguises this kind of practice and allows them to do as they wish while foisting off puppies -- at a good cost! -- to the unwary pet owner who finances their hobby. It is sad that many good breeders are damaged by the perceptions created by those currently running through the streets with their lit torches, on the attack. BE CAREFUL WHERE YOU BUY (http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=26676)!!

Surely this will go down in the history of the Kennel Club as one of the most foolish, asinine, self-centred actions ever. If the KC has not yet noticed the cliff it is standing on due to the actions of CKCS CLub at the moment, it will discover it soon enough (and that it wasted all that spin control money).


Just out of curiosity, will any journalists be covering this meeting?

:thmbsup: Let's just say there is a lot of interest in many quarters. It is a story handed to the national media on a plate. Several million people in the UK alone watched Pedigree Dogs Exposed. They will be very interested to learn what happened next.

****************

Just a reminder -- people can also send a petition on issues that matter. Over 1000 people have signed this one (http://www.petitionthem.com/default.asp?sect=detail&pet=4262&page=10#sigs) to tell the KC to halt inbreeding.

sins
16th September 2008, 12:44 PM
I'm reminded of Lisa T's post about Dublin Castle with the statue of Justice in the 18th c deliberately having a hole on one of her scales. Thus when it rained, the scales became imbalanced - :p
If people are being dragged from the all over the Uk for this SGM then why not run another at the same time when as many members as possible are assembled?
That way the rules of the club would be seen to be applied fairly across the board.
Sins

Brian M
17th September 2008, 10:41 AM
Hi

Theres another item on BBC Northwest tonight about dangerous dogs ,I hope there no Cavaliers in it.!:confused:

Jan Bell
17th September 2008, 10:52 AM
...could be in danger of being licked to death I suppose.........

binnie
17th September 2008, 12:15 PM
...could be in danger of being licked to death I suppose.........

That made me chuckle :D

sins
17th September 2008, 12:17 PM
What exactly do you have to be involved with to be thrown out of a breed club?
perhaps this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/688360.stm

nah!
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/shows/Results/2007/nckcs07.html

But tell the truth about the SM problem?
Sins

Jan Bell
17th September 2008, 12:24 PM
That is absolutely sick. How can they possibly claim to be interested in Cavalier welfare.

Karlin
17th September 2008, 12:35 PM
Apparently she was banned from the club but eventually reinstated despite being tried and convicted on 83 counts of animal cruelty -- and that was her first show back judging. :eek:

If it was a conviction to do with children or elderly care... can you imagine the outrage if someone was then given a job back in the field?

Truly bizarre.

binnie
17th September 2008, 12:50 PM
:mad:

"" Mr Hamer said: "It's another example of the RSPCA going at something with a sledgehammer." ""

Sick, just sick. Sicker still are those who are rallying round in support.

Alison_Leighfield
17th September 2008, 01:07 PM
Sins,

That place believe me was no worse than the place in which Donna and I went into and took a Cavalier from a while ago, my late Lucy. A throw out.

The breeder was an Acc breeder on the K.C list, they removed the Acc status after pressure due to intervention, and it took ALOT of pressure. Might add here as well that the RSPCA didn't want to get involved on this one :( but she still advertises on there alot, and still breeding.....Cavs and Shelties.

Alison.

Karlin
17th September 2008, 01:23 PM
To qualify for the accredited breeder scheme all you have to do is fill in a form and pay a small fee. The chances of ever being inspected are tiny -- and generally require complaints and even then as Alison notes, it can be a struggle to get them to do anything.

So what is the point of a puppy buyer choosing a breeder from a scheme that anyone can pay to join to make themselves look better?

The KC has said it plans to overhaul the scheme but really it would need some sort of rigorous examination and a fast-action complaint system.

AT
17th September 2008, 02:44 PM
What exactly do you have to be involved with to be thrown out of a breed club?
perhaps this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/688360.stm


Sins

we were once looking for a rescue cav and after making enquiries were given her contact details as she had some "foster" dogs . But were told not to ring that day as she would be busy. turned out she was busy because she was in court that day !

I dont care what your opinion on her is you dont give rescue dogs to someone who is up in court on cruelty charges

*Pauline*
17th September 2008, 02:54 PM
What exactly do you have to be involved with to be thrown out of a breed club?
perhaps this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/688360.stm

nah!
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/shows/Results/2007/nckcs07.html

But tell the truth about the SM problem?
Sins

I'm really angry about this, someone should tell the papers. :mad:

Claire L
17th September 2008, 04:02 PM
It's a great pity that wasn't in the Pedigree Dogs Exposed program. Can you imagine impact that would have had????

Pauline, I agree with you wholeheartedly, someone should contact the papers and remind them of this -keep the pressure on.

frecklesmom
17th September 2008, 08:57 PM
:rolleyes: And yet another change (they must have read Karlin's post) at CKCS Club UK


SPECIAL GENERAL MEETING, 5TH OCTOBER 2008 **

SECOND NOTICE TO OVERSEAS MEMBERS

The recent website notice to overseas members was issued following advice received from the Kennel Club. This stated that overseas members could be allowed to vote at the forthcoming SGM.

However, the Club subsequently received queries concerning the absence of formal SGM Notices issued to overseas members. AGM Notices have never previously been sent to overseas members. The Club therefore sought further advice from the Kennel Club Legal Department to clarify the voting entitlements of overseas members. The following revised KC guidance has just been received:

‘.... the forthcoming SGM is specifically about the removal of a person from the club committee. As a general proposition, the removal of a person from office should only be effected by the body which initially confers this office. The benefits of membership listed in the club rule book limits participation in the annual elections to UK members. The committee is therefore constituted by the ordinary UK members. Therefore it would not be correct to allow overseas members to participate in this vote.‘

‘For the forthcoming SGM, it is suggested that out of courtesy the overseas members are advised of the meeting and of any changes in the committee as the club would ordinarily do so, in the normal course of business.’

We must therefore withdraw previous advice to overseas members on their entitlement to vote.


icon_whistling

diddy
17th September 2008, 09:04 PM
re NCKSC Ch show Aug o7
and SHE had the b----dy cheek to criticise 'lack of muscle tone' amongst the exhibits. Makes me wonder why anyone would have valued her opinion of their dogs. But hey never mind, shes got the best interest of the breed at heart really she has.....Yep, and I'm a monkeys uncle!!

sins
17th September 2008, 09:05 PM
Tough luck for anyone who has bought a non refundable plane ticket then!:eek:

HollyDolly
17th September 2008, 09:35 PM
:rolleyes: And yet another change (they must have read Karlin's post) at CKCS Club UK

icon_whistling
Having just returned from holiday I was disgusted to receive letter from The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club calling a SGM on Sunday 5th October to consider the removal of Margarte Carter from the committee of the above club.
I tried to read all the previous posts but wonder if someone can help me. As a member of said club can they insist that in order to vote you have to attend? It is almost impossible for me and my husband to attend this meeting but as a fully paid up member I would have thought you do not actually have to attend. We have never been asked to go when voting for a member to join committee so why this?

*Pauline*
17th September 2008, 09:54 PM
There is no postal vote for this one I think. Put "postal vote" search.

Karlin
17th September 2008, 10:11 PM
No, there is no postal vote.

However there are questions over whether an SGM can be held.

The Kennel Club's legal department certainly seems to be very confused these days!

Cathy Moon
18th September 2008, 04:17 AM
Tough luck for anyone who has bought a non refundable plane ticket then!:eek:
Most travel insurance won't refund tickets for a reason like this, either! :sl*p:

Alison_Leighfield
18th September 2008, 08:11 AM
The club must be a laughing stock worldwide by now....I wonder what the next change will be.....watch that space.

Holly Dolly, sadly we have to attend to vote :( hardly fair to members that cannot travel for many reasons....they havn't thought that out very well.

and hardly fair on people that have bought tickets....

but then the whole process of trying to remove Margaret is hardly right either.

Alison.

Jan Bell
18th September 2008, 09:50 AM
I'm annoyed that you only have the right to vote in person, when the yearly voting for Committee members can be done by post.

As I have said before, under normal circumstances I wouldn't hesitate to drive up there, but after my knee op I am not even allowed to put my right foot on the floor for a further 4 weeks and driving is right out of the question.

I am hoping that the legal issues will mean the meeting never takes place. Anyone who gets news about this please update asap. Fingers crossed.

PS Welcome back to the board HollyDolly - hope you had a good holiday.

Jan Bell
18th September 2008, 11:43 AM
Just had a letter from the Kennel Club about my correspondence re: Pedigree Dogs Exposed:



Dear Mrs Bell

Thank you for your correspondence regarding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, the contents of which have been noted.

Please find enclosed a press release which was issued by the Kennel Club last week to outline our position with regards to the breed and the health issues involved.

Yours sincerely
Caroline Kisko


I suppose I should not be suprised at such a limited reply, but actually my letter covered a lot more than just Cavalier health - Margaret Clarke, the Kennel Club's defensive reaction to the show, their Accredited Breeders Scheme and lack of enforcement of breeding protocols, remark by Mr Irving about not being told what to do by scentists etc, etc.

So, acknowledgement from CKCS Club, this from Kennel Club, an e-mail (totally satifactory answer re: support message on KC website) from Dogs Trust.

No replies from Pedigree Dog Foods or James Wellbeloved yet, who I wrote to 10 days ago. Defra, CKCS Club re: Margaret Clark, Roger Helmer and Peter Ainsworth, MP still a bit early to expect a reply.

Will keep you posted.

Karlin
19th September 2008, 02:04 PM
I've also crossposted this to its own thread -- but it is relevant here to note that Dog World this week is full of opinion pieces on the documentary and knock on effects.

First off, the main opinion piece The Opinion column discusses the RSPCA and Dog Trust withdrawals and calls for discussions and then goes on to talk about the Cavalier Club, KC and Animal Health Trust working to combat the two major problems in the breed. Indeed the current EBV (estimated breeding values) programme is the most significant investment in breed health taken by the KC and CKCS Club and builds on and will work directly with the substantial work already done by many researchers, especially the genome work initiated and continuing now by Clare Rusbridge and Penny Knowler, which is directly connected to the EBV project.

It then states:


That is a positive note, but the same cannot be said about the parent breed club holding a special general meeting with the aim of expelling a member who appeared in the recent TV programme. We can understand how a great many of the members must feel, but surely this is not the way forward? We have said before that dog people have little idea how their actions may be perceived by the world outside. This is a case in
point.

Exactly. The KC and club seriously need to discuss the damage this will cause the breed and the club, setting aside the fact that the club is using two completely different approaches to the same issue -- an ethics complaint -- with Margaret Carter and Beverly Costello. That fact alone will make this look like a pathetic public lynching of the whistleblower while protection is given to the breeder whose breeding practice is in question.

In addition see:

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Features/38-atter?year=2008&month=09

Where judge Sheila Atter notes:


What we cannot do is assess the likelihood or otherwise of the dogs being shown under us carrying some serious inherited defect. I particularly like the idea of a ‘Veterinary Passport’ but it seems to me that this is something that needs careful consideration before it is implemented. Why limit its use to ‘certain breeds’?

According to the KC statement: “This would be designed specifically for particular breeds, confirming the status of a dog’s health and conformation in relation to certain prescribed aspects before they could be shown.”
Why not make it mandatory that every dog, of every breed, should have a basic passport before being entered at its first show. In most other European countries, dogs are now required by law to have an official passport, similar to the Pet Passport issued in the UK to dogs travelling abroad – and horses have their own passports. Why does the KC not issue each dog that is to be exhibited with a Show Passport? There could be spaces for recording health tests and their results – and the passport would have to be taken to all shows where random checks could be carried out by a Field Officer.

And: http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Features/38-holm?year=2008&month=09

Which weighs up various angles and notes:


From what I have read I think that Andrew Brace’s piece, A wake up call from the BBC (DW, Sept 5) seems to hit the nail on the head. We cannot deny the validity of a lot of the issues that the programme tried to tackle and we need to pay stark attention to how we are perceived by the outside world.
The world of pedigree dog breeding and showing, like all human endeavours that involve competition and money, has its murky corners. We are foolish if we do not recognise that the job of television producers like those who made Pedigree Dogs Exposed is to draw in large audiences by rooting out and exposing that darker side. They can only do this if that darker side exists and we need to face the fact that it does. It seems to me that what we need is pro-active, high profile, efficient, well informed and highly visible promotion and regulation of good pedigree dog breeding so that the public can easily see the difference between this and the rogue element.
As a group we lay ourselves wide open to this sort of criticism when we have people operating in the world of pedigree dogs who persist in bad practice. How can it ever be right for a breeder to carry on using a brood bitch or a stud dog after it has had a serious health problem identified or is known to produce a debilitating condition in its puppies?
But, equally, how can they be prevented from doing so unless the governing body is able to control and police such practice with compulsory health testing and restricted registrations? As breeders we enjoy the freedom to register our puppies by supplying the bare minimum of information, but should we? We know that we simply cannot rely on the fact that all pedigree dog breeders have the good of their breed at heart, even if the majority do. That, I am afraid, is naïve nonsense.

Brian M
19th September 2008, 09:27 PM
GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY

HI

I work in central Birkenhead in our office and as the company is in the reinforced concrete section of the Civil Engineering field our lads on sites finish early on a Friday, so this evening i had an early dart at 4.50 and on the short way home i drive through an area called Hamilton Square which is a fine square of offices in some superbly kept Victorian buildings (am i rambling ) ,as i drive through i slowed to let a smartly suited gentleman cross the road .As he waved to thank me i spotted it was none other than Mr Frank Field our MP (Member of Parliament),so not to waste the opportunity i quickly drove on pulled over and parked ,and what a charming gent he is ,as some may know he is an ex Minister but is his own man and a man of the people . I thanked him on behalf of all Cavalier owners and mentioned that BBC programme and the horrid things that are happening to our breed ,to which he remembered my email contact and told me of his support and conversations with Mr Geoffrey Clifton-Brown and that he and others are endeavoring to do all they can in support of our work to change things for the better for all pedigree dogs .I further mentioned (i hope i am OK here) all the hard work that is done by all our forum members here in the UK and the USA and further and especially people like Karlin and Margaret C and all the many others who have such great knowledge and that are working so hard to change the breeding directives so its a far more stricter health based breeding structure and to refocus the Cavalier Clubs and especially the Kennel Club to healthy Cavs not cloned and unhealthy Cavs .He certainly gave me the impression he was interested and wanted to help and requested that i email some links from our forum to him so he can further understand the problems ,so i tried, and harassed a poor gent for twenty minutes when all he probably wanted to do was get home to London ,but irrespective of political parties (hes labour) he will get my vote. So is it alright to advise the links requested.

HollyDolly
19th September 2008, 11:58 PM
I have been e mailed today by another cavalier owner who I have known for over 30 years who is also amazed and disgusted at what is happening to our lovely breed and also has contempt for all those mating unhealthy dogs. She tells me that a new website has just appeared about cavalier health and what the programme pedigree dogs exposed did not tell us. It does not say who set the website up no names were mentioned but my dear friend gave me a very big clue, initials V.H.
A Link to this site will appear shorltly.

*Pauline*
20th September 2008, 12:14 AM
Sorry I'm not with it tonight, the link HollyDolly wanted to post was:

www.cavalierhealth.co.uk

HollyDolly
20th September 2008, 12:22 AM
Thanks Pauline for adding the link.

Perahps we all could set up our own web site "HOW NOT TO BUY A CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIEL FROM BREEDERS WHO DO NOT HEALTH SCAN. What do you think?????

rosiesmum
20th September 2008, 12:36 AM
Did anyone fill in the survey at the very bottom of the page?

What's the betting any negative result will be ignored.

Cathy Moon
20th September 2008, 12:53 AM
The survey is a bit weird. The questions are very opinion-based, not fact based, and they lead you down a path to the answers they obviously want to hear. Not very professional.:-|

frecklesmom
20th September 2008, 01:46 AM
The survey seems to follow the general theme of many of the replies on Dogs World-mixed up science, everyone is an authority,pie in the sky. Hope the site crashes.

Jan Bell
20th September 2008, 10:00 AM
It does not say who set the website up

Notice that they don't want their names public here, unlike Carol Fowler or Margaret C.


i spotted it was none other than Mr Frank Field our MP

Well spotted Brian. Personal contact and he remembered your letter.

My brother, who I forwarded the petition to, said he has a recollection of Roy Hattersley, who is apparently a dog lover, talking about inbreeding of pedigree dogs years ago. He couldn't remember that much, but as RH is now in the House of Lords I thought I may as well write a letter to him as well. I will do a bit of internet reseach today and see if anything comes up.

Claire L
20th September 2008, 12:00 PM
Looks like someone has decided to gather their own information. It's a great pity they don't have the courage of their convictions to say who they are :( I wonder why they chose the number 30% for the SM question??

I had to laugh at this bit :
We are carrying out this survey to learn more about SM in Cavaliers. All we ask is that the information you give is the truth.

Pity they can't do the same :rolleyes:

Margaret C
20th September 2008, 03:21 PM
Perahps we all could set up our own web site "HOW NOT TO BUY A CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIEL FROM BREEDERS WHO DO NOT HEALTH SCAN.

I am deriving a great deal of pleasure in seeing this Cavalier Health website, greatly flawed though it is.

It is put together by breeders, many of them officers & committee members on regional clubs, who only six months ago were denying that syringomyelia existed, disputing the figures, intimidating those who did scan their dogs, rubbishing the research and defaming the researchers who have done so much for our breed.

Well the defamation is still there and they are still trying to ignore the specialists that worked so hard for so many years to bring this problem to light, and whose research underpins the whole of the work now being done........ but just look what the whole site is about:-

An admission that the cavalier breed has a serious neurological problem called syringomyelia

It is a shame they did not say more about the other major health problem & put the actual Mitral Valve Disease protocol on the site as well, instead of just the criteria for admission onto the Cavalier Club over five heart list ( and go look how many top stud dogs are on that ) A little bit of fudging the issue there perhaps?

I am surprised they did not tell the people who are thinking of buying a cavalier just what questions they should ask the breeder & what health certificates they should expect to be shown. A missed opportunity there.

It is heartening to think that all those breeders are now committing themselves to using the lowcost MRI centres ( and submitting their results ) & breeding to the informal Rusbridge guidelines while they wait for the EBVs to come on line.

The world is much more of an open book these days, pet people join web sites like this and talk to each other. I am sure it will eventually come to light if they are only paying lip service to the idea of improving cavalier health.

Interesting to see they also have the list of Cavalier Club list of health initiatives on this web site.
I have been seeing that a lot lately, everybody, including the KC seem to be using it to prove how much money was raised by cavalier clubs & breeders.
I would just like to take a little bit of the credit and say that since 2001 I have been the primary player (and fundraiser, with the great help of my colleague Jeanne Boyd ) in numbers10,11,12,13,15,17,18,19,21,22,

After many years of working to raise awareness of SM & supporting research, it became obvious to me that, despite the small number of wonderful breeders that were doing everything they could to breed healthier dogs, nothing would change while the majority of cavalier breeders refused to test for the known problems in the breed.

I came to the conclusion that only publicity would make things change, hence the film interview.

I believe the Kennel CLub should only register puppies from health tested parents.
If you agree.... please sign the petition. http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ReformtheKC/

Margaret C

Karlin
20th September 2008, 11:56 PM
An admission that the cavalier breed has a serious neurological problem called syringomyelia


Very true. :thmbsup: From such beginnings, one hopes, meaningful changes will come. :)

HollyDolly
21st September 2008, 01:09 AM
Have just been reading on Dog World site that some breeders are mating King Charles Spaniels with Cavaliers, not telling anyone but registering them as Cavaliers. Do not know how this person found out but if true what is the world of dog breeding coming too, and wonder why they are doing it. Is it to try and get away from all Cavalier Health problems, but some people say that syringomyelia is a small breed disease not confined to Cavaliers so does that mean they are just compounding the health issues. I seem to be banging my head a lot these days:bang:

HollyDolly
21st September 2008, 01:20 AM
I know that at least two formal ethics complaints -- the very same issue which the club is calling the SGM for with Margaret Carter -- were filed at the same time (if not before the petition) about breeder Beverly Costello, owner of Beauella Radzinski, to the club committee. Yet an SGM has only been called regarding Margaret. The procedure must be the same for both. <Quote from Karlins post> Sorry computor had hot flush, and would not accept quote.

Have been told the Cavalier Club had recieved more than 25 signatures on petition which is the number quoted re club rules for dismisal of committe member. They say the Club have not recieved that many for dismisal of Miss Costello.

RodRussell
21st September 2008, 03:50 AM
I think the new website is a mish-mash, wrapping anti-"Pedigree Dogs Exposed" opinion around what essentially is a carbon copy of Anne Marie Rasmussen's 2004 Cavalier health site. It looks like what I would expect Steve Mynott would produce, if he were asked. Citing Murray Ingpen's second-hand-knowledge diatribe as if he had actually done any research on the subject, while ignoring the multitude of original sources of published SM research, certainly demonstrates that the purpose of the website is to guide the unknowing to a justification of the views of those Cavalier people who talk the talk but are not willing (yet) to walk the walk. This site has no value as a resource on any Cavalier King Charles spaniel health matter.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA

frecklesmom
21st September 2008, 04:19 AM
I'm not an authority on anything with Cavaliers but my instincts tell me that this site could really affect new puppy seekers and give twisted perceptions-a bit Pollyanna in its descriptions and some of its site referrals. If no one finds it great-if newbies find it and believe it than its dangerous. Rather transparent attempt to water down any attempt at change in breeding protocols.

EddyAnne
21st September 2008, 05:23 AM
Have just been reading on Dog World site that some breeders are mating King Charles Spaniels with Cavaliers, not telling anyone but registering them as Cavaliers.
In regards to that persons post I replied and provided a link to the Canine Heritage Breed Test, and maybe they might like to start by doing a cheek swab DNA test on suspected dogs. Have a looksee at this page and the breeds listed, note CKCS and KCS (American AKC Registry known as breed English Toy Spaniel).
http://www.canineheritage.com/breeds.php
.

Cathy Moon
21st September 2008, 05:44 AM
I'm 100% in agreement with your opinion of the site, Rod. You've stated it very concisely.

Anyone with a moderate level of intelligence will notice many red flags on the site and will seek out more meaningful information.

What I and many others find particularly alarming/disturbing is the way the people who put up the site are taking credit for things Margaret Carter and others worked so hard to achieve, and at the same time these same people have a meeting scheduled to remove her from her post.

If there ever was a time for truly health-focused UK breeders to break away from this unworthy group, it is now.

EddyAnne
21st September 2008, 05:47 AM
I'm not an authority on anything with Cavaliers but my instincts tell me that this site could really affect new puppy seekers and give twisted perceptions-a bit Pollyanna in its descriptions and some of its site referrals. If no one finds it great-if newbies find it and believe it than its dangerous. Rather transparent attempt to water down any attempt at change in breeding protocols.
I remember back when Rod Russell put up his website. When it's link was posted on a number of Cavalier lists/forums soon afterwards another website appeared. Now Rod or anyone else, do you remember that other website and what's it's address. But over the years I've noticed Rod's website being mentioned on lists/forums and the address provided to this or that on his site. Hi Rod :)
.

Cathy Moon
21st September 2008, 06:04 AM
Is this the site? http://aboutcavalierhealth.com/index.htm

EddyAnne
21st September 2008, 06:16 AM
Is this the site? http://aboutcavalierhealth.com/index.htm
Looks like it, and I noticed there are heaps of Cavalier sites on the internet and I wonder how many would notice that particular one amongst heaps. And I haven't seen it mentioned and it's link provided on lists/forums for donkeys ages.
.

HollyDolly
21st September 2008, 09:16 AM
Looks like it, and I noticed there are heaps of Cavalier sites on the internet and I wonder how many would notice that particular one amongst heaps. And I haven't seen it mentioned and it's link provided on lists/forums for donkeys ages.
.
No That is not the site it is;-
www.cavalierhealth.co.uk (http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk)

Jan Bell
21st September 2008, 10:04 AM
On a lighter note, HollyDolly, I have just read your comment on Dog World and the "men with fast cars" bit made me laugh out loud!

Have to say that you are right though, about how rude some of these people are. It really isn't necessary for a valid, reasonable point.

naz
21st September 2008, 10:10 AM
Being new to cavvies i have an extremely limited knowledge of the breed always having springers or terriers myself. On this point i have never ever seen personally a dog that was in the pain shown on tv in fact ive never seen one full stop. how big a percentage of the breed do have it this badly. ive seen a lot of literature since buying a cavvie and was told about heart eyes knees, etc but not this, pre purchase. As to this vote we are not members of this particular section but i agree to get a broad agreement of members, it should be postal,if deemed ethical or of use, or if it needs to be held at all.as for the breed itself a long term independant body should be appointed and a descision on the breeding as regards health and breed conformity thats adhered to should be layed out for the future.also i amongst others would be grateful if the forum listed a number of what they regard as good sites to read about the various issues with the breed. this is not the part of the forum i should put this in but regards the RSPCA stance , MUTANTS wasnt it, they have just offered me the cheapest and best quote for insuring our cavvie. a question of left hand and right hand communication???:confused:

Jan Bell
21st September 2008, 10:47 AM
I received this letter yesteday. Please excuse any spelling mistakes as I have to type it out.



The Rules require that a Special General Meeting must be called on the written requisition of 25 members and the Notice of the Meeting must state the business to be transacted. Details of the complaint will be debated at the Meeting. The Meeting will be open to all members who wish to hear the debate and, should they wish, to voice their own opinion. Members can then vote, based on the views expressed, to decide the merits or otherwise of the complaint. The venue for the meeting was selected to be in the centre of the country so as to be as convenient as possible to members of a national club.

There is not doubt that Mrs Carter has worked hard towards improving the health of the breed. In this she has been supported by the Committee and many other members. However, the complaint against her concerns an alleged breach of The Code of Ethics.

The Cavalier Club is taking steps to address the complaints made against Miss Costello. The established procedure is being followed in such matters. I understand that the Kennel Club is also considering the circumstances of Miss Costello's alleged actions.

I very much appreciate the concerns expressed in your letter regarding health issues. I was certainly not aware that that is has been stated that SM and MVD are under control, or that either are minor issues. Currently there are no definitive figures for the incidence of SM in the breed. Far more dogs need to be scanned to provide reliable data.

The Club has always done so much to tackle health problems in the breed. Currently there are more health initiatives in place and hopefully these will produce significant progress. Unfortunately, these other issues are a distraction to what most of us are endeavouring to achieve, namely healthier Cavaliers.

Yours sincerely
Lesley Jupp


The reference to SM and MVD being under control comes from a comment made to me by a CKCS club breeder when I was looking for a puppy 18 months ago. I didn't know much about SM then, but rejected her on the grounds that she was not helpful when I asked about MVD.

I don't know if individual letters count towards the 25 people needed for a petition, or if the 25 have to band together in one go. Does anybody know?

sins
21st September 2008, 11:46 AM
That's a very courteous and informative reply.:thmbsup:
Sins

RodRussell
21st September 2008, 11:49 AM
Looks like it, and I noticed there are heaps of Cavalier sites on the internet and I wonder how many would notice that particular one amongst heaps. And I haven't seen it mentioned and it's link provided on lists/forums for donkeys ages.
.

Yes, Eddy, aboutcavalierhealth.com is Rasmussen's, and the other one is cavalierhealth.info by Johnson-Snyder. They sprung up in September 2004 as some breeders' reaction to cavalierhealth.org. These breeders immediately added either or both of these sites to their own websites' "Links" pages, presumably in hopes that cavalierhealth.org would get forgotten about for lack of attention.

I expect this new site, cavalierhealth.co.uk, to get the same attention from some breeders. I expect them to add this site to their Links pages, and to talk about how "balanced" it is and how it presents the SM issue from the "breeders' point of view".

As with aboutcavalierhealth.com, when you see the new site included on a particular breeder's website's Links page, you will know what kind of breeder you are dealing with. It can become an easy way of deciding to move on and look for someone else if you are looking for a puppy.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA

HollyDolly
21st September 2008, 11:53 AM
I think as long as they get 25 or more individual signatures that would constitute them holding a SGM to remove Miss Costello. I know many members have already done this but HOPE more will continue

Evelyn
21st September 2008, 12:34 PM
Rather than refute the info on the "Pedigree" programme this new site will only reinforce it. Anyone reading the health test recommendations will see that despite having research and tests available for many years we are not much further forward.
Simon Swift suggested a more in depth heart test be done at 5 years old . The Club found at over £200 it would be too expensive so it could not make it mandatory. NONE of the tests are mandatory even the FREE one at the Club show. The over 5's heart list isn't very encouraging either. It's no wonder Simon Swift spoke on the programme he has worked with the Club for years and "some" progress has been made but he obviously thinks more could be done.

Cathy Moon
21st September 2008, 06:25 PM
I expect this new site, cavalierhealth.co.uk, to get the same attention from some breeders. I expect them to add this site to their Links pages, and to talk about how "balanced" it is and how it presents the SM issue from the "breeders' point of view".

As with aboutcavalierhealth.com, when you see the new site included on a particular breeder's website's Links page, you will know what kind of breeder you are dealing with. It can become an easy way of deciding to move on and look for someone else if you are looking for a puppy.

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA
Thank you for pointing that out. :thmbsup:

sins
21st September 2008, 06:36 PM
I looked through the entire site.While reading through the "health stuff", I felt a remarkable sensation of deja vu:rolleyes:
However I thoroughly enjoyed the article on the history of Toy spaniels and was a genuine delight to read.:thmbsup:
Sins

AT
21st September 2008, 07:03 PM
I looked through the entire site.While reading through the "health stuff", I felt a remarkable sensation of deja vu:rolleyes:
However I thoroughly enjoyed the article on the history of Toy spaniels and was a genuine delight to read.:thmbsup:
Sins

The old book they mention ( lytons toy dogs & their ancestors ) is available online & interestingly mentions dogs getting into a habit of scratching for no reason . this book was published around 1900

EddyAnne
21st September 2008, 10:01 PM
Yes, Eddy, aboutcavalierhealth.com is Rasmussen's, and the other one is cavalierhealth.info by Johnson-Snyder. They sprung up in September 2004 as some breeders' reaction to cavalierhealth.org. These breeders immediately added either or both of these sites to their own websites' "Links" pages, presumably in hopes that cavalierhealth.org would get forgotten about for lack of attention.
I thought you'd remember more than me, meanwhile your site is still there and providing excellent information. Must add, Karlin's SM site is also providing excellent information. :)
.

RodRussell
21st September 2008, 11:39 PM
I thought you'd remember more than me, meanwhile your site is still there and providing excellent information. Must add, Karlin's SM site is also providing excellent information. :)
.

Thanks, Eddy. Karlin's site is a tremendous resource, as are Dorothie Hellman's and Barbara Reese's Cavalier Episodic Falling Syndrome site, http://cavalierepisodicfalling.com and Laura Lang's http://www.premiercavalierinfosite.com

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA

EddyAnne
21st September 2008, 11:50 PM
Thanks, Eddy. Karlin's site is a tremendous resource, as are Dorothie Hellman's and Barbara Reese's Cavalier Episodic Falling Syndrome site, http://cavalierepisodicfalling.com and Laura Lang's http://www.premiercavalierinfosite.com

Rod Russell
Orlando, Florida USA
Yes excellent sites too, and over the years I noticed that members on my email list post links now and then when new members ask certain questions. :)
.

ross
22nd September 2008, 04:38 PM
Ihope I am in the right place with this post
Ref to Driffield Champ show 19th September 08

The cavalier results make interesting reading
Search carefully

Ross

sins
22nd September 2008, 05:09 PM
Well Bless it's little feathery slippers, that puppy bitch must have got itself all done up and made it's way all the way to the show all by it's ickle self cos we've all read that her owner/ breeder wasn't doing this thing no more!!
:dogwlk:

Karlin
22nd September 2008, 07:34 PM
Guess she feels she still has more to contribute to the breed...? icon_nwunsure [checked: apparently shown by someone else so probably sold a while back]

Meanwhile in the Daily Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3022373/Top-breeder-says-Kennel-Club-is-in-denial-over--deformed-dogs.html



Ms Jeffers set up the Albany Bassets after she was expelled from the Kennel Club's Working Branch of the Basset Hound Club in 2002 for criticising the inbreeding that, she claimed, meant Kennel-club registered bassets could no longer work in the field.

"The Kennel Club-registered basset hound had developed into a ponderous mutant incapable of hunting so we had to outcross," she said.
"The Club took umbrage at this and expelled us, an easier option than admitting to the fact they had ruined the breed."

The Government warned that it was planning to force commercial breeders to begin "programmes aimed at the eventual eradication of traits that cause unnecessary suffering in dogs".

Ministers are holding talks with the Kennel Club, dog welfare groups and veterinarians on the issue but want breeders to take the initiative in the meantime and start breeding out those traits, said a spokesman for the Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra).

and:


The Dogs Trust, Britain's largest dog charity, has also withdrawn support for Crufts over the breeding techniques.

Clarissa Baldwin, the trust's chief executive, said the Kennel Club officials must review breed standards to ensure that the dogs' health was the priority rather than appearance and artificial breed standards.

Ms Baldwin urged Defra to bring forward laws to regulate dog breeding.
Beverly Cuddy, the editor of Dogs Today, said the Kennel Club was an old-fashioned and out-of-touch organisation governed by arcane rules.

"It has to reform ," she said. "Breeds are under threat. The Kennel Club has to take the criticism on the chin and get on with it. Kennel Club registration should be a mark of a dog's health and quality. We have got to get back to that."

UK members, keep writing letters to your MPs in particular but also Euro MPs!! The KC has said itself that under the way it is currently organised it cannot require breeders to do anything -- so it has got to rest with government to do something, or the KC to reform.

Jan Bell
22nd September 2008, 08:16 PM
Received this reply from Defra - again, sorry for any spelling mistakes but am copy typing it out:



The Animal Welfare Act 2006, which came into force last year, means that we now have the power to make regulations to protect the offspring of vertebrate animals. The various genetic problems suffered by pedigree dogs have long since recongnised by the Veterinary profession and the Government. The Government welcomes the work being done by organisations such as the Kennel Club and the British Veterinary Association to address these problems. It also welcomes the work being done by the Companion Animal Welfare Council (CAWC) to bring together expert opinion on the nature of these problems and how they should be addressed.

Advances have been made by geneticists in developing DNA based tests for some conditions. This provides breeders with the opportunity to breed responsibly and to improve the welfare of future off-spring.

The Government accepts that there are shortcomings in the existing law on the commercial breeding of dogs. While a overhaul of these laws is required to ensure we can stamp out puppy farming, it will also provide an opportunity to put in place measures that include a requirement on commercial breeders to adhere to programmes aimed a the eventual eradication of traits that cause unnecessary suffering in dogs. However, the breeding out of such traits must be seen as a long term goal which breeders themselves must seek first to address. The Government does not see these matters as priorities for new animal welfare legislation - although it does recognise the concerns felt by many regarding breeding standards.

The European Convention has been an important catalyst in raising animal welfare standards. The introduction of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 in England and Wales - as well as the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006 - means that our laws are now consistent with the principles set out in the Convention. Nevertheless, there are aspirations in the convention, in particular the resolution on breed standards, which may not necessarily be the most effective way of promoting welfare.

Defra is currently working with the devolved administrations to identify those areas that may cause mutual concerns and the implications were the Government to sign the Convention.

I hope this letter addresses your concerns.

Your sincerely
MB, Defra - Customer Contact Unit


Took me a couple of readings to work out what they are saying, and even now I'm not totally sure: seems to be that they know there is a problem, but aren't planning to do anything about it.

It does seem though, that letters to MP's en mass are going to be necessary to push the issue. I wrote to Peter Ainsworth last week, so will see what he says.

HollyDolly
22nd September 2008, 08:19 PM
Well Bless it's little feathery slippers, that puppy bitch must have got itself all done up and made it's way all the way to the show all by it's ickle self cos we've all read that her owner/ breeder wasn't doing this thing no more!!
:dogwlk:
Yes I read that too, was on my high horse again until I calmed down and thought about it. Do you think she might have sold the puppy and it was being shown by someone else? :xfngr: I would like to think that was the case :thmbsup:
Has anyone heard yet if the SGM is still going ahead?

Karlin
22nd September 2008, 08:25 PM
Yes, this one was apparently shown by someone else, probably owned by someone else.

Karlin
22nd September 2008, 08:53 PM
UK members: once again a reminder -- petition to sign, on the Prime Minister's website:

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ReformtheKC/

Pass it around!

frecklesmom
23rd September 2008, 03:48 AM
I was curious, after reading about the Albany Bassets, how many other breeds have similar changes in breeding. I did run out of patience after a bit but found, under old fashioned dog breeders, some sites regarding taking a specific breed back to when it was functioning and healthy-those sites included labs, GR's and collies. Some breeds are being "retrofitted " by breeders who got frustrated with what was happening to their breed for the sake of "show". The collies I saw were magnificent. The German Shepherds beautiful, along with nice blocky headed GR's and athletic looking Labs.

Jan Bell
24th September 2008, 10:39 AM
I sent the Defra letter to Beverly Cuddy of Dog's Today. Please see the Cold Wet Nose Blog for her suggestions to publicise this issue:

http://www.coldwetnose.blogspot.com/

If anybody out there has doggy friends who could be persuaded to write to their MP's and/or Defra, please do your best. I think there are lots of people who were distressed about the Pedigree Dogs Programme, but who won't necessarily do anything about it without a bit of persuasion.

What was that quote about all it takes for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing? I am not suggesting that these breeders are actually evil, but it is true that it takes time and effort to counter an existing and established system. So please have a read of Beverly's blog and think about how we can get more people involved.

HollyDolly
25th September 2008, 12:44 AM
There's a couple of new pages on the new website. One is a nameless breeder explaining why he/she doesn't scan. Apparently science has not yet given them enough info but now that Sarah Blott's evb research they feel that is better and will start scanning.
Just where do they think the info for Sarah's research has come from ? From all of us that are already scanning of course, so they can sit on their backsides letting someone else spend their money to pave the way for them. They make my blood boil.
The other page is about how long cavaliers live and it's ok because they can live long lives even with heart problems because their owners can keep them going with medication !! They will never make pet owners understand and why should they when they are the ones paying the price.How can they expect the general public to accept these sort of comments they are crazy if they think this is going to improve the breeders image.
Having had many Cavaliers with MVD I know from first hand experience how devastating this condition is, when your beloved dog is diagnosed at 2 and then dies just a few years later. Yes medication has come a long way, my 14year old cassie has been heart pills for number of years at the cost of £75.00 per month.
www.cavalierhealth.co.uk (http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk)

Davy
25th September 2008, 01:08 AM
The other page is about how long cavaliers live and it's ok because they can live long lives even with heart problems because their owners can keep them going with medication !!


Ok now I'm p*** off, they think it ok?

I have a diabetic/MVD dog that I work my bloody A*** off everyday to make sure she lives a normal life but apparently that's OK.

Side note: a couple of years ago my brother was at a wedding for a friend and at the table he sat at was a Cavalier breeder who after they started talking (he mention SiânE being diabetic) wanted to know info about about diabetes as she was finding more and more people on the show ring had this problem with their dogs.:confused:

binnie
25th September 2008, 02:21 AM
?
The other page is about how long cavaliers live and it's ok because they can live long lives even with heart problems because their owners can keep them going with medication !!


Let's all breed dogs with illnesses, because it doesn't matter, they'll live a while, they can all go on medication.
Let's not worry about the dogs suffering, the owners suffering, the cost of medication, etc etc, because you can just shove them on costly pills & all will be ok !!!!!

Discusting :mad:

AT
25th September 2008, 10:09 AM
I was speaking to the pet crematorium lady on monday, she said the amount of young cavaliers she cremates is heartbreaking. Her own cavalier made it to 11 but was ill for quite a while.
I forgot to ask if her clients were all mvd or other causes , my mind was on other things to be honest.

I am concerned about the " they have sm on the scans but no symptoms" arguement how do we know dogs have no symptoms , you can't ask them how they feel.
One of my dogs was running around on a broken leg for months while having treatment & never complained

binnie
25th September 2008, 11:43 AM
I am concerned about the " they have sm on the scans but no symptoms" arguement how do we know dogs have no symptoms , you can't ask them how they feel.
One of my dogs was running around on a broken leg for months while having treatment & never complained

This is so true, they often don't alert you to anything being wrong.

Amber was her normal self, playing, happy, just normal.
Then one evening not so long ago, i went to let her out the garden, when i noticed she'd urinated in the kitchen & it looked slightly pinky, this hadn't happened before, her urine had previously been normal.
I rang the vet, who arranged an appointment for the next day.
She was her normal self, no sign's or symptoms of anything wrong at all except this pinky coloured urine, she wasn't going to the toilet more than usual, nor drinking more than usual.

The vet did a few tests & said her urine looked clear & looked at me as if i was mad, but did a dip stick test to check for blood, just incase.
He came back into the waiting room with his mouth wide open. Her test had apparently shot straight up, showing high levels of blood, dispite looking clear.
She was found to have a servere cystitis infection & was placed on antibiotics for over a month.

Her vet said she must have been in agony as her lab results were very high.

I was completely stunned, as at no time at all did she appear to be in pain or show any signs or symptoms whatsoever. The poor little thing had been in agony for weeks & she'd not once let me know :(

Cathy Moon
25th September 2008, 01:36 PM
There's a couple of new pages on the new website. One is a nameless breeder explaining why he/she doesn't scan. Apparently science has not yet given them enough info but now that Sarah Blott's evb research they feel that is better and will start scanning.
Just where do they think the info for Sarah's research has come from ? From all of us that are already scanning of course, so they can sit on their backsides letting someone else spend their money to pave the way for them. They make my blood boil.
The other page is about how long cavaliers live and it's ok because they can live long lives even with heart problems because their owners can keep them going with medication !! They will never make pet owners understand and why should they when they are the ones paying the price.How can they expect the general public to accept these sort of comments they are crazy if they think this is going to improve the breeders image.
Having had many Cavaliers with MVD I know from first hand experience how devastating this condition is, when your beloved dog is diagnosed at 2 and then dies just a few years later. Yes medication has come a long way, my 14year old cassie has been heart pills for number of years at the cost of £75.00 per month.
www.cavalierhealth.co.uk (http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk)

The website is hurting their cause; it appears to be a list of excuses for not properly health testing and following protocols.

sins
25th September 2008, 03:05 PM
The website is hurting their cause; it appears to be a list of excuses for not properly health testing and following protocols

I agree totally.What in theory was a very good idea has fallen flat on it's face.
The main thrust of the pedigree dogs exposed programme was that disabled dogs were being bred!
If a human is on medication for diabetes they are classed as disabled,
If a human has chiari/syringomyelia/scoliosis thay are classed as disabled,
It doesn't matter what medication you give a dog, you can mask the symptoms but the underlying cause is still there and someone bred that disabled dog.
Six year old spaniels should not be dropping dead from heart failure or taking medication.
Sins

Jan Bell
5th October 2008, 10:23 AM
Just a couple of posts that may be of interest regarding Pedigree Dogs Exposed.

:mad:First, there was a rather nasty allegation about Jemima's filming of the Cavaliers on the programme on the Dog World site.

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Breeds/BreedNotes/39-CAV.aspx

I have been trying to ignore the lady who posted it, but I didn't feel I could let this pass so I contacted Jemima to get her response, then asked her permission to post her comments. She replied saying that no doubt her comments would cause more nasty comments back, but that she was feeling brave so I could go ahead and quote her!




Regarding post 90 I was concerned about the allegations made, so contacted Jemima from Passionate Productions for clarification. She replied as follows:

“Television is a visual medium. And I don’t believe anyone would have been upset if the story had been on puppy farms and I had showed dogs in appalling condition in some dirty kennel in south Wales. My pitch to the cavalier community was that I wanted to illustrate how awful heart disease was in the cavalier to help generate the impetus to tackle it. There’s no better way of doing this than showing a dog in end-stage heart disease and I have to say that Bet showed no indication that she had a problem with this at the time. The problem was that the film then went on to say that the cavalier community had failed to address heart problems – because too many “responsible” breeders ignore the MVD breeding protocol which are designed to tackle MVD. “In the end, we found a pet owner who was very willing to let us film her cavs in end-stage heart-failure. Why on earth would she mind? Her cavaliers have cost her £40k over the years. She loves them. She wants things to change.

The “wee tri”, meanwhile, was filmed by his owner, desperate that some good come out of the most awful experience. She hopes it will spur people and organisations do everything they possibly can to address SM so that other dogs don’t have to go through what her dog did. It’s archive footage – the dog was PTS some time ago, before we made the film. As for the PETA accusation.. as have said elsewhere – I must be the only paid-up member of PETA who has a working gundog (my flatcoat Maisie)!.”

This link says it all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem :xctly:

I hope that there will be no repetition of the groundless allegations made against Jemima. Jan Bell

Posted at 08:28 on 04 Oct 2008 by
Jan B | Report as inappropriate (http://www.dogworld.co.uk/report?commentID=976&commentno=92)




The second item I thought I'd post here comes from Beverley Cuddy's blog, which I thought was very interesting in respect of the problems of being able to speak out due to concerns about funding:



Dear editor,

I would like to add some further commentary regarding the film Pedigree Dogs Exposed, shown on BBC1 on August 19. In contrast to Nick Blayney [Ed note: BVA president at time documentary aired and featured in the documentary being very supportive of the KC] (September 1 issue), I thought the programme was a reasonable presentation to the general public of the facts associated with pedigree dog breeding. No doubt, many will have been surprised – or even shocked – at the evidence of ill health in pedigree dogs, although the existence of widespread breed-associated disease is common knowledge among veterinary professionals.

I was also interviewed at length for the programme. The producers told me an important obstacle they encountered was a reluctance of vets, and especially those in academia, to speak freely about The Kennel Club (KC), because of the potential risk of losing future research funding from the organisation. This certainly is a quandary, because of the extreme paucity of funds available in this country for clinical research in dogs. Indeed, I have been a recipient of KC funding, so publicly questioning the KC could appear disloyal.

However, as vets our foremost professional loyalty must be to the animals we have pledged to serve. I believe the time has now come to abandon the pusillanimous approach to the more questionable aspects of dog breeding in this country. I would liken the need for the veterinary profession to unite and present an alternative point of view to the KC to that of a person who is alarmed by the errant behaviour of a close friend or relative and who must eventually speak out.

The whole issue of dog breeding practice merits an article in itself, but of the points raised by Mr Blayney in the article, science – and its role in providing solutions – is, of course, of key importance. There are, however, two aspects to the control of breed-associated disease.

Firstly, there are dogs that are obviously conformationally unsound: there is little need for scientific research to understand that animals that are unable to breathe without distress, to walk for any reasonable distance or to breed unaided – all prevalent in specific breeds – are not humane end points of in-breeding. As a veterinary educator, I find it difficult to explain to students the claim that the KC is safeguarding the health and welfare of pedigree dogs while this is permitted. It also often begs questions from students about why it is so important that the KC remains “in control” of dog breeding?

Secondly, there are breeds that are conformationally basically sound, but carry a high risk for specific breed-associated genetic disease. For these, the present approach – rightly developed by the KC – of attempting to identify and eliminate disease-associated genes may be appropriate: there are many extremely conscientious breeders who wish to do all they can to preserve the health of their breeds. However, these individuals often feel their efforts are poorly recognised and supported. Therefore, in addition to establishing appropriate genetic testing methodology, very vigorous support of these breeders from both the KC and the veterinary organisations is imperative if these programmes are to successfully achieve their aims.

Even so, some breed-associated diseases will likely prove refractory to this type of approach – most notably those that are caused by multiple genetic abnormalities. Furthermore, elimination of individuals carrying one specific genetic abnormality may also limit the remaining available gene pool to an unrealistic degree.

Finally, it has been noted that current breeding practice will inevitably shrink gene pools, meaning it will be unsustainable in the long term for all breeds. It was disappointing that this was pointed out in the television programme by a geneticist rather than a veterinarian. Clearly, there are many issues regarding dog breeding that the veterinary profession as a whole could, and should, provide analysis and advice on. It may be necessary for more obvious and radical approaches to be adopted. For instance, it could be argued that the greatest contribution the veterinary profession could make to improving the welfare of domestic dogs would be to campaign for an end to]selective breeding in the form it is currently practised.

Yours faithfully
NICK JEFFERY, BVSc, PhD, CertSAO, DSAS(soft tissue), DECVN, DECVS, FRCVS,
Professor of veterinary clinical studies, Department of Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge, Madingley Road, Cambridge CB3 0ES.



:thmbsup:http://www.coldwetnose.blogspot.com/ (http://www.coldwetnose.blogspot.com/)

Sorry this was a long entry.

frecklesmom
5th October 2008, 04:02 PM
According to Breed Notes,Dog World UK, Margaret Carter was removed from her office today :(

*Pauline*
5th October 2008, 04:06 PM
Oh no.:(

Cathy Moon
5th October 2008, 04:10 PM
I'm saddened by this news. :(

brotymo
5th October 2008, 04:14 PM
According to Breed Notes,Dog World UK, Margaret Carter was removed from her office today :(


Oh gosh, has anyone spoken with her? How is it all "go down"?

Margaret C, I am so sorry. Perhaps there will be a silver lining to this unfair outcome and you can continue your campaign for cavalier health unobstructed now.

*Pauline*
5th October 2008, 05:35 PM
Perhaps there will be a silver lining to this unfair outcome and you can continue your campaign for cavalier health unobstructed now.

That's just what I think.

You know what, Margaret offered to come with me to Royal Veterinary College when I take Dylan. In my hour of need, when she doesn't even know me, she knew I'd need someone and offered. That's the kind of person Margaret is. She's thoughtful and kind.

Aileen
5th October 2008, 05:45 PM
I think that the out come was never in doubt they have got there way it was not a fair meeting

I am so sad at this bit of news :cry*ing:
---Aileen and the gang (Barney---Jazzie---Jake)

HollyDolly
5th October 2008, 09:00 PM
For me this is the saddest day in the history of the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club. Margaret C was without a doubt the best Health Representative that club ever had. I HOPE that Miss Costello is met with the same fate.

The post by Jemima Harrison was removed from Dog World web site, how low can these people stoop. Norma Inglis wrote how nasty some posters were I do hope she includes B. Hargreaves. Having had my full name and my home town printed for all to see Mrs Inglis should also include herself.

frecklesmom
5th October 2008, 09:10 PM
K9 magazine online has published about the meeting and Margaret's answer to questions re: the TV program. It is very timely.

http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives/976/why-i-spoke-out-about-cavaliers-by-margaret-carter/

*Pauline*
5th October 2008, 09:18 PM
The post by Jemima Harrison was removed from Dog World web site, how low can these people stoop.

You can post it again. My posts have been removed more than once.

Davy
5th October 2008, 09:29 PM
K9 magazine online has published about the meeting and Margaret's answer to questions re: the TV program. It is very timely.

http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives/976/why-i-spoke-out-about-cavaliers-by-margaret-carter/


Interesting reading. Can't be believe they heckle Margaret, how old are these people.

Dose this also mean they were trying to push Margaret out before the program and they used the program as an excuse?

frecklesmom
5th October 2008, 09:38 PM
Sounds like it. If you want to see more of their trashy behavior read the Cavalier Dog Breed posts.

Davy
5th October 2008, 10:10 PM
Oh I seen their posts.

The term 'did you type that with one hand' springs to mind with one poster and I never thought I would think that about a women.

Cathy Moon
5th October 2008, 10:51 PM
For me this is the saddest day in the history of the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club. Margaret C was without a doubt the best Health Representative that club ever had. I HOPE that Miss Costello is met with the same fate.

The post by Jemima Harrison was removed from Dog World web site, how low can these people stoop. Norma Inglis wrote how nasty some posters were I do hope she includes B. Hargreaves. Having had my full name and my home town printed for all to see Mrs Inglis should also include herself.
This is a sad day. The members of the CKCS club who voted Margaret out will continue to produce cavaliers who have MVD and SM without changing their breeding practices, with no thought or care for the emotional and financial burden this places on cavalier owners.

I'm thinking out loud here: perhaps a second organization [a world wide club?] could be created for health concious cavalier breeders who are willing to share what they're doing to improve the breed's health. They could still belong to the main club, but their membership in a second organization would showcase their commitment to breed health.

HollyDolly, what do you mean by this? Did someone print your full name and home town on Dog World? If so, have you filed a complaint?

Cathy Moon
5th October 2008, 10:53 PM
K9 magazine online has published about the meeting and Margaret's answer to questions re: the TV program. It is very timely.

http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives/976/why-i-spoke-out-about-cavaliers-by-margaret-carter/

Thanks for posting this article.

diddy
5th October 2008, 11:43 PM
Yes Cathy, I think you're right. I am not a member of the CKCS club whose members disgraced themselves today by voting to oppose openess and honesty within its ranks . I think the time has come to set up a CKCS Club that DOES have the welfare of the breed at heart, as sadly the present one clearly no longer does.

Diane.

*Pauline*
5th October 2008, 11:47 PM
HollyDolly, what do you mean by this? Did someone print your full name and home town on Dog World? If so, have you filed a complaint?

Yes, Norma posted HollyDolly's full name and home town. A complaint was lodged and it was removed then it was posted a second time by Norma, that was removed also. And we were criticized many times for not giving our surnames.

HollyDolly
6th October 2008, 12:03 AM
Yes Cathy I did lodge a complaint with Dog World and although it was removed they did not reply to me and Mrs Inglis printed it again. To this date they have not acknowledged my formal letter or e mail.
I was very shoocked that Mrs Inglis could stoop so low but then again after what happened today maybe not.
She said in one of her posts that she had taken steps to have dog world editors remove posters who she considers inappropriate , I see she is still writing for them:mad:

Cathy Moon
6th October 2008, 12:25 AM
:yikes:yikes:yikes Most magazines would FIRE an employee for doing that!

On the Internet the right to security and privacy should always come first.

Is there not an agency of some sort you could report this to? She obviously cannot be trusted.:eek:

Cathy Moon
6th October 2008, 12:28 AM
Ultimately Dog World is responsible. Have they ignored you? Is there contact information on the home page of the magazine?

HollyDolly
6th October 2008, 12:45 AM
Ultimately Dog World is responsible. Have they ignored you? Is there contact information on the home page of the magazine?
Yes the contact information is on the home page and I have the paper delivered weekly.
Yes I suppose they have ignored me, I have been trying to be patient and think maybe they have overload at the moment so feel that I should give them another few days ro reply. Mrs Inglis has modified her breed notes and said little about the posters on the papers website, so hopefully it will not happen.:mad:

Cathy Moon
6th October 2008, 12:53 AM
The problem is - she already has your personal information and she cannot be trusted if you do anything that sparks her anger. For example, if you have a different opinion than hers and want to post a comment, which you are entitled to do. Someone at a higher level of management at Dog World needs to know this has happened to you twice already!

HollyDolly
6th October 2008, 12:57 AM
The problem is - she already has your personal information and she cannot be trusted if you do anything that sparks her anger. For example, if you have a different opinion than hers and want to post a comment, which you are entitled to do. Someone at a higher level of management at Dog World needs to know this has happened to you twice already!
I know my husband thought it threatening that she did this, when emotions are running so high one wonders what might happen next.

Cathy Moon
6th October 2008, 01:12 AM
It IS threatening - in this day and age; anyone would agree.

diddy
6th October 2008, 01:23 AM
HOLLY DOLLY

Yes, I saw that and reported it as inappropriate, and I dont think I was the only one to do so.

Jan Bell
6th October 2008, 09:41 AM
I posted on behalf of Jemima after contacting her, and that was still on there yesterday, but I never saw Jemima's own post. What did she say, does anyone know?

Cathy Moon
6th October 2008, 12:26 PM
I posted on behalf of Jemima after contacting her, and that was still on there yesterday, but I never saw Jemima's own post. What did she say, does anyone know?

Jemima told Norma that she was "cherry-picking the facts to support her argument" regarding Norma's response to Pauline about the SM protocol and the use of the Malvern BIS dog at stud. Jemima said the Malvern dog was diagnosed at 14 months with SM, making him a 'not to be bred' dog.

The next post following Jemima's was also deleted. It had pointed out that not only was the Malvern BIS dog diagnosed at 14 months with SM, but also he was at used at stud before age 2.5; so both the MVD and SM protocols were completely ignored.

I can't understand how factual posts are deleted, while the most provoking, untrue and inflammatory by a certain poster remain.

AT
6th October 2008, 12:50 PM
I've just been to the vet with my boy & the vet asked about my girl having to be pts with sm two weeks ago ( he had seen her once a few days before but hadnt actually put her to sleep, so it was nice that he remembered her)
He said a cavalier had presented soon after her with similar symptoms & had to be pts too.

For something that is supposedly rare & less than 2 % as some people insist I seem to hear about an awful lot of dogs suffering from it !

Cathy Moon
6th October 2008, 01:06 PM
I'm hoping that since the BBC show aired, more people will notice the symptoms, have their cavaliers diagnosed and notify their breeders.

There needs to be a database of diagnosed cavaliers and perhaps their pedigrees. Otherwise club breeders could hide the facts.

I remember when Charlie had his decompression surgery; at every appointment the neurosurgeon told me how many cavalier decompressions he had done recently. Cavaliers were being brought in to him from out of state for decompression surgery.

Cathy Moon
6th October 2008, 01:08 PM
I've just been to the vet with my boy & the vet asked about my girl having to be pts with sm two weeks ago ( he had seen her once a few days before but hadnt actually put her to sleep, so it was nice that he remembered her)

I'm sorry for your loss. :hug:

AT
6th October 2008, 01:16 PM
I'm sorry for your loss. :hug:

Thankyou. its still strange withought her.....

Her original vet refused to give her the gabapentin so I took her to my current vet who prescribed it for her .

I like this vet because he always remembers to ask about my other dogs & admitted he didnt know anything about sm & read the treatment chart I took along. its an hours drive away but i'd rather go to him than use the usless local vet

she had two good scratch free days but unfortunatly she was just too far advanced & had a terrible screaming attack when the drugs wore off So I had to let her go.....