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Hbev
26th September 2008, 05:59 PM
Hi all. this is my first post here so i hope ive put it in the right section!!-and hope you can give me some advice.

Louis is nearly 5 months old now (getting on a bit!) and as a small puppy he always slept through the night without needing the get up and go to the loo. However, in the last 2 weeks he has woken me up every night whining to be let out and when I do he has a long drink and a wee before going straight back to sleep! Being woken up at midnight every night is quite annoying but I'm happy to do it if he's uncomfortable but in addition to this he's now starting urinating in his bed too (I think this is happening in the day time whilst I'm at work - which is never more than 4 and a half hours). I know he's only a baby and can't hold it for hours and hours but we place a puppy toilet training pad down for him and he never uses it, although he's happy to use the one by the back door. We have toilet training in general pretty sussed but this is worrying me and I'm getting fed up of having to consistently wash his bedding. We even took the basket out of the crate (wondering if that would help, if maybe he basket was a bit small) and lined the crate itself with bedding but that has not helped. He has had a urine sample tested at the vet and that was clear. I'm quite worried about my little chap as this is unusual. We moved house about a month ago and I returned to work about 3 weeks ago. I don't know if this has anything to do with it. Any help would be absolutely fantastic!!

Helen & Louis the little monster.xxxcavtiny

cosmic81
26th September 2008, 08:19 PM
Hi Helen,

I was in your shoe just a few month ago.
I would remove his water bowl after 10pm. (depends on when you go to sleep)
He is too young. I crate my Nemo at night until he is 7 month. He continue to have accident in his playpen until 7 month as well. But he "got it" one day. It's a typical puppy thing.:)

Go to Cavalier Information Library (http://board.cavaliertalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34) section of the forum. Many good reads!

lorebringer
26th September 2008, 09:45 PM
Helen,

Firstly, don't be worried about him being unusual - plenty of pups do this!

I had a pup who was about the same age when I got him and he did this terribley. I was washing his bed everyday and constantly cleaning up pee from the floor, but it almost always happened when he was left alone. I initially thought it was a seperation problem but it turned out that he was doing it even when there was someone around and he was just relaxing in his bed.

I found that is the dog stops assosciting his bed with peeing - put some vinigar into the wash when you are washing the bed so that the dog cannot smell pee from the bed (I also recommend using a biological washing powder because the enzymes help break down the pee). You can get an enzyme spray in plenty of pet shops that also do this. Taking the dog out to go to the toilet often is also key - every hour should be ok. The dog might not go every time but when they do give masses of praise (very much like normal toilet training). Because this has been going on for 2 weeks the dog has developed a habit of going very late, changing this pattern would help - perhaps put the dog to bed earlier than usual and then pop in before you go to bed to let him out for his last pee. Lifting the water at a spacific time will help prevent the pee building up so that may be worth a try!

Just to keep in mind - if the dog is drinking excessively a trip to the vet for a blood test may be in order to check kidney function. It could be why there is such an urgency to pee. Don't worry though, often dogs just grow out of these odd habits! :rolleyes:

diddy
26th September 2008, 10:19 PM
Our little'un is just 6 months now. Toilet training went really well for the first few months then suddenly she began peeing anywhere and everywhere she wanted. Our breeder advised that there is some chemical change to the saliva during the teething process,which results in them loosing control over their bladder for a short time. She advised us not to worry as it "will all come right in a couple of weeks" - she was spot on.!! So dont worry too much as it will come right again.

Hbev
27th September 2008, 09:20 PM
Thankyou guys that's all really helpful and interesting. I'll try washing his clothes with vinegar....and he is teething so its interesting to read about the change in his saliva. He doesn't drink exessively but he does gulp down when he does - though this is only a couple of times a day. I really think he's doing it when I'm at work and so hope its a behavioural thing that he's just developed as a habit. I thought maybe shutting the door of his crate in the day seen as he tends to sleep on my dressing gown on the floor by the door waiting for me to return. What do you think?

Helen & Louis!!x

Karlin
28th September 2008, 07:14 AM
I might recheck him with a different vet. If he is needing to drink this badly, and also has started wetting his crate, you really need to make sure there is not a medical problem. Did you tell the vet he has to drink a lot?

But you are saying a number of things that would raise various issues that are probably at the heart of the problem.

First: I would think he has had a lot of stress and change recently in between moving house and suddenly being left alone for many hours every day. This would definitely be a possible cause of housetraining problems and some regression. Also I am confused by some of what you are saying here. You say you are tired of washing bedding, but have housetraining mostly sussed? If you are constantly washing bedding, he definitely isn;t anywhere near being housetrained -- but this would be normal at his age. He is very, VERY young to be anywhere near being housetrained if not even 5 months old yet, especially if suddenly, no one is there to actually train him and he is left to himself to figure it out. I think you have probably made a very common mistake of assuming your puppy was housetrained because he had a good week or so when being watched while people were around -- but it takes months, generally, to housetrain a dog fully and reliably and there is alsways lots of backsliding. So I would guess a lot of this is simply due to upheaval in his life followed by lack of supervision and actual training. It does take much longer to housetrain a dog when people are out at work and it is quite normal for a puppy this young to lose much of what he has begun to learn when suddenly owners return to work. Also if he is EVER shouted at or punished for going inside he may well be choosing to go in the crate as the lesson he will be learning is -- don't go when people can see me or are at home, go when they are gone and in places they don;t see me do it.

Look at what he is being expected to figure out for himself, too: very few puppies can housetrain themselves at such a young age and being left alone with a puppy pad is basically leaving him to figure things out (he has had a short period of supervision and then suddenly all the training has ended for half of every day). Plus: if you are BOTH using pads AND taking him outside -- think how confusing this is for a puppy. How does he know the difference between outside vs using the floor vs using a pad? He is getting two entirely different messages -- sometimes go outside *when I am here to take you* and when I am gone you have to try and use a piece of paper on the floor... but no one is here to remind you, little guy, you need to remember it all even though you are still the equivalent of a toddler! That is why most dog trainers and books strongly suggest never wasting time on training to pads and papers as it practically doubles the time to housetrain. Training to both at the same time is doubly confusing to a dog. In summary: he is pretty young to hold himself for the whole time you are at work so of course he is going to go somewhere, but if you train him outside when you are there he isn;t really going to be thinking he needs to use a puppy pad.

Is he wetting only at night or also in the day? You need to know when he is wetting -- his bedding should be checked first thing in the morning and replaced with clean bedding if wet (he should never be left to sit in wet bedding for many hours in a crate :eek:); then checked when you get home so that you know what is happening, when. There's a difference between going at night and going in the day -- they suggest different problems.

His crate also sounds way too big for housetraining purposes if an entire basket and bedding fits inside plus there's still more room? If that's the case then he is simply trying to eliminate in one area of his crate as he has too much space. Also you wouldn't generally put a basket into a crate anyway... have you read up on crate training? About the correct size of crate and when and how to use it? There are links in the LIbrary section on crate training and I also recommend buying Shirlee Kalstone's book on housetraining.

When you are there does he have 100% supervision 100% of the time? Is he ever allowed out of sight, allowed to wander into other rooms, left to take himself outside to relieve himself? If so you want to start closing doors and rooms, having him at arm's reach, and be taking him out on a lead at regular intervals (probably every 2 hours or so at his age to start from scratch).

How late do you walk him last thing at night? He needs to be taken out on the lead and walked so that you make sure he completely relieves himself. Don't just put him out back. Walk on a lead, and praise and reward when he goes. Make SURE he goes. This should be the very last thing you do before you go to bed. A 5 month old puppy with an empty bladder and bowel at bedtime (YOUR bedtime) is not going to need to be let out to go unless there is indeed a problem.

Are you giving him food and water late at night? Unless he is doing a lot of playing and exercise you can lift water at around 8-9. It does concern me a bit that he is drinking heavily though in the middle of the night -- and if he is again wetting his bedding it is likely because he is filling his bladder again. I'd want to talk to a vet about his need to drink heavily at night as well as relieve himself.

I would not change the patterns of when he goes to bed -- dogs are creatures of habit and the way to efficiently train them -- especially puppies! :) -- is to have a pattern and KEEP it.

I do not believe the breeder who believes saliva changes and causes accidents at night is correct -- this is entirely new to me (and I think to most scientists! :) ). I think that may be an overactive imagination. :lol:

Hbev
28th September 2008, 09:38 AM
Hi Karlin thanks for your reply though you seem to have misread a few things in my previous posts.

When I said Louis is generally house trained what I meant was he does all his poo's outside and the majority of his wee's and any mishaps only happen on the toilet training pad which is placed by the back door. I know I said he goes in his bed but I personally don't count that in general house training, I count that as a behavioral or medical problem. I know how long it takes to house train a puppy as I have had experienced pups before. We are also using both pads (by the back door only) and taking him outside because he was originally relentlessly using the carpet and so we intervened with pads and moved them slowly to the back door, which is suggested by most people. We then moved some outside to encourage him going outside. The back door can't always be open and he is confined to one room (not near the door) when no one is in and therefore, we place the pad on the floor to allow him to relieve himself if he needs - to reduce any unnecessary stress.

He is also not left alone long...he is left alone for the morning only and there is generally always some one here. I am very conscious of not upsetting him by leaving him alone for too long as I have also had experience (not my dog) of separation anxiety before and it is a horrible thing to witness and difficult thing to solve. We do close all upstairs doors in the house and seen as mine (and his) bedroom is downstairs he is either in the garden, which is enclosed so I allow him on his own, or with me and never left to wonder around - as I said before he's confined to my bedroom in which his crate and food/water bowls are..when I, and everyone else is out.

His crate is the ideal size - it only fits his basket in and there is no extra room, I think you misread me here. I took the basket out wondering if whether, at night, the basket was now too small (as he's now getting bigger) and was waking him up and due to him waking up he needed to go to the toilet. And of course I always replace the bedding as soon as I know it is wet. He is not confined to his crate in the day time..only for sleeping hours at night time and so he never sits in a wet bed.

I believe, he is wetting the bed in the day time.

Regarding the food/water late at night his final meal is around 7pm and yes he does drink water until bedtime but I mentioned to the vet taking away the water around 9pm and he said strictly not to do this as they will only drink when they need to and so taking it away might cause him to become dehydrated. I did not mention to the vet excessive drinking as he is not gulping down all the time..he drinks about a bowl of water a day, what I said was when he does drink yes he gulps it down but this is not regularly in the day.

I hope this has answered your questions and you can help further.
Many thanks, Helen.

Justine
28th September 2008, 11:58 AM
I remove the water after 9pm.As Archie would wet in the nite,its like kids,no drinks after a certain time.

Karlin
28th September 2008, 06:41 PM
I believe, he is wetting the bed in the day time.
But how can you not know, if you are checking his bedding in the morning? It should be easy to tell if it is one or the other. Either you can tell he wet at night because you checked to be sure it was dry before he went to bed, it is wet in the morning because he has wet it at night and you have checked it in the morning. Or you can tell he has wet it during the day, because it is wet when you come home and you knew it was dry in the morning because you checked it. If you don't know whether he wet it at night or in the daytime, because his bedding isn;t being carefully checked at these intervals, then could he not be spending the day with wet bedding if you are not checking it in the morning?

Also -- I think if he was 'relentlessly' going on the carpet before that you really, really need to get Shirlee Kalston'es book and read up some more on housetraining (the links on crate training in the library are excellent for this). He needs to NEVER have been given the opportunity to go so constantly where it wasn't wanted (this is the 100% supervision or management part of housetraining) -- the very fact that he had a couple of months of forming these habits means he was very unlikely to have been already housetrained at his young age, and now no one is there much of the day to constantly reinforce the desired behaviour means he really probably has no clear idea where he should be going. In other words every single allowed mistake sets you back two steps. If he was able to go all the time on carpets and around the house then he has some very fixed habits that need dedicated time and training. The fact that you have moved halfway through his housetraining means he really has no association any longer probably with where to go -- hew was learning where to go based on his old house and now you need to start from step one, all over again, as the whole landscape has changed for him. If he is mostly going on the pads then it sounds like you are getting a fairly good results -- he is ONLY barely reaching 5 months and puppies need a LOT more patience and expectations that match what they are able to do -- it takes about a year to thoroughly houetrain a puppy; it doesn't happen in a few weeks. :thmbsup: . If he is also going in his bedding it is very likely because he sees no difference between pads on the floor and pads in his bed and likely is using his crate as a place to potty, That is something you really do need to address. ow you do this will be a challenge if people are back at work. If someone can take two weeks off to fully focus on training, that would help. But please, get the Kalstone book as it has many schedules that fit with work schedules too.

Housetraining is tough -- it is probably the one thing most people seriously underestimate and why puppies really are not for everyone (personally, I don't care for puppies myself for this reason -- it is a year of very hard work!). Your experiences are not unusual -- you just have to realise that you have a puppy that will need time and effort over many, many months and that getting frustrated is part of the experience -- just don't take it out on the puppy (as a parent will find childrearing frustrating but you don't take it out on the child). Just keep reminding yourself a dog cannot know to do what WE have not taken the time to teach it in a rewards based, positive way. The responsibility is entirely with US. If the puppy is failing, it is because WE are not giving enough time or are confusing the puppy/dog with our approach -- hence, read up more (for example, crate training usually does not involve putting a basket inside the crate and is more involved than just leaving a door open to a container -- he clearly has no idea that it is a place to keep clean as he hasn't been actually crate TRAINED, he just has a crate their with A basket in it that he sees as another potty area). Give your puppy that time and effort now and you will eventually have the great adult you hope for. :)

Ashley
28th September 2008, 11:34 PM
Yip, agree with everything that has been said. It just takes A LOT of perserverance. I was actually shocked at how much was involved in toilet training when we got our first dog Holly... and she caught on relatively quickly I think.

Karlins right, hes still very young and its still a long road ahead. You just need to make sure he is being walked every time he is let out of his crate, and everytime he even wakes up, whether that be from a wee snooze on your lap, the floor, the sofa etc. We set an alarm on our cooker to go off every hour and took her out every hour. When she was catching on, we made it every hour and a half.

Try and take a step back from what you are doing and think about what the little guy thinks you want him to do. When is he being praised? When is he being told off? We used pads etc to start with Holly, but our trainer pointed out that we were probably giving her mixed messages, so we removed these completely.

At night when she was a pup, we took the water away about 10pm, walked her for about 10-15 mins to let her relieve herself, and tire herself. She was then put in to her crate and the door closed. If she needed during the night she let us know by crying or scratching gently, and we took her out for a quick pee. This died down though and she doesnt do this anymore!

Definitely read up a bit more on housetraining. Sometimes it just takes an outsider to point out something and you realise that the pup was getting mixed messages. Happened with myself and my OH all the time when Holly was a pup.:thmbsup:

diddy
29th September 2008, 12:23 AM
Our little'un is just 6 months now. Toilet training went really well for the first few months then suddenly she began peeing anywhere and everywhere she wanted. Our breeder advised that there is some chemical change to the saliva during the teething process,which results in them loosing control over their bladder for a short time. She advised us not to worry as it "will all come right in a couple of weeks" - she was spot on.!! So dont worry too much as it will come right again.


OMG I do sincerely apologise. I have just been told off for getting the above post completely bottoms up!! The correct version follows. (meanwhile I'm sloping off to bed in disgrace). Please accept my apols.

binnie
29th September 2008, 03:33 AM
OMG I do sincerely apologise. I have just been told off for getting the above post completely bottoms up!! The correct version follows. (meanwhile I'm sloping off to bed in disgrace). Please accept my apols.

:rolleyes: Haha you have 3 seperate conversations completely mixed up there!!.... What she actually said, was that most of her puppy's are almost house trained when they leave & much earlier than usual, as they tend to copy what the other adult dogs are doing. She also wait's a lot longer than some other breeders before she lets them go.
On top of that she said she always kept her back door open while she was around, so that they could go & pee whenever they needed to.
She did say that once teething starts, her puppy's training normally goes completely out of the window for a while.

Hbev
29th September 2008, 12:26 PM
Ok thanks everyone help much appreciated.