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Karlin
7th October 2008, 12:41 PM
On Sunday evening I set this forum so that non-members can only read thread titles but not thread content. Basically I am just having a bit of fun making it more of a hassle for some people to rush to get their little fix of what the pet owners think (I know, it is sad, but some breeders actually LIVE for each new post here! :lol: I wish that crowd would spend as much time reading up on breed health information or actually making positive contributions to breed health, but reading discussion boards simply consumes them. Some people lead pretty limited lives, I guess! :rotfl: ).

In case people have checked in without having logged in and thought something was wrong with their User CP settings, this is why you cant get into the threads. You just have to log in. :) I've kept all the other forums open as usual -- most outside readers are here for the health forums and the Library section and the pictures you all post, so the heavily accessed content is all available.

Mainly I am just having a bit of fun setting up a few hoops to jump through. If people are so desperate to read the site that they have friends forwarding them thread content, that's their business of course. Maybe they need to get a few more activities and interests in their lives, though! :D

*Pauline*
7th October 2008, 01:03 PM
That's a good idea Karlin :thmbsup: Am I right in thinking the Dog & Bone has been off limits to non members for some time?

Jan Bell
7th October 2008, 01:47 PM
cl*p Oh dear, I've discovered that I am mean enough that I am enjoying the thought annoyed people confronting those new hoops!

rosiesmum
7th October 2008, 01:55 PM
I wondered what was happening!! I usually browse through the site when I am at work, but tend not to log in - I thought work had caught on and was blocking me from somehow viewing the threads, that was until I got home tried viewing without logging on and found I had the same problem :D

Do you need any ideas on how else to have fun with these breeders? I'm sure we can all come up with a suggestion or two :jump:

diddy
7th October 2008, 02:08 PM
Ha Ha Ha I thought it had gone strangely quiet on another forum where certain people love to criticise this one, so knew 'something was up'. Just read this thread and found the reason why. Much amused!!

chloe92us
7th October 2008, 02:15 PM
I read a comment by Bet on the Dog World notes that said that this site is now "closed" so I was wondering what was going on...

Brian M
7th October 2008, 02:48 PM
Hi

What an excellent idea ,sorry i just have to say Stuff Them.:)

*Pauline*
7th October 2008, 03:17 PM
I read a comment by Bet on the Dog World notes that said that this site is now "closed" so I was wondering what was going on...
Yes and she said a lot worse than this on Oct 3rd. I have reported it.

Karlin
7th October 2008, 08:04 PM
I thought work had caught on and was blocking me from somehow viewing the threads,

:rotfl:

Yeah, reading CavalierTalk can get you in trouble! icon_devil

Maybe some of those people will find something better to do with their time then read and fuss over other boards and lists. One of the things I limit here is long discussions of other lists and boards, for a variety of reasons, but one is that they all have the right to choose their own audience and direction. I have made mine very clear since this board was set up and I continue to refer people to the intention and moderating approach of the board. Elsewhere I list several other lists and boards for breeding discussions etc.

I regret to say I have removed one breeder membership as she was offering publicly on another list to email people's forum posts from here to interested breeders, a direct violation of board guidelines and etiquette. Individuals hold copyright to their own posts and I hold copyright to the board overall.

I stress again that my point is not to hide any conversations on a public board -- and I certainly could not be bothered to spend hours screening members :rolleyes: -- but do sometimes enjoy playing a game called 'Fun With Board Features' :cool:. I bought this board software because it has a lot of powerful features for screening and filtering and managing which come in useful for spam (and some breeder :lol:) accounts.

chloe92us
7th October 2008, 08:05 PM
Pauline, I saw you were beaten up on that site. Were a bunch of comments deleted or something? Wow, they just won't quit, huh?

cecily
7th October 2008, 08:30 PM
I had such a stressful day and that thread has just really made me laugh :thmbsup:
:rah: Go Karlin :rah:

Lani
7th October 2008, 09:34 PM
Great idea Karlin!

murphy's mum
7th October 2008, 09:41 PM
Hee, hee. Your just a little evil Karlin LOL:badgrin:

Chelle & Rex
7th October 2008, 11:21 PM
I thought work had caught on and was blocking me from somehow viewing the threads,

I thought the same until I tried on my blackberry which is always logged in!

binnie
7th October 2008, 11:48 PM
Hahaha Nice one Karlin :D



Pauline, I saw you were beaten up on that site. Were a bunch of comments deleted or something? Wow, they just won't quit, huh?

I think a lot of things that were said got deleted from various sites.

My psychic powers tell me that a lot of other doggie lovers got sent links to various topicss on various places :neutral:

My psychic powers also tell me that they all complained :thmbsup:

(Sorry, had to edit this as i wrote posts instead of toipcs)

pinkpuppy
8th October 2008, 01:21 AM
Thanks, Karlin, for making it safer!:D

Cathy Moon
8th October 2008, 01:24 AM
Thanks Karlin! Now I feel I can relax a little!

:badgrin::badgrin::badgrin::badgrin: I must say I'm having a good laugh over the reactions to these changes on the outside!!!!!!

*Pauline*
8th October 2008, 01:25 AM
Pauline, I saw you were beaten up on that site. Were a bunch of comments deleted or something? Wow, they just won't quit, huh?

Me, beaten up, never! As long as the other side is put forward, it restores the balance a bit. I just want readers to hear things from a pet owners perspective and point out the blasé attitude to SM of some breeders. I don't always get it right but I'll have a good try.

Many posts were deleted, mine, HollyDollys, Jemima Harrison's the list goes on. But everyone's posts are getting deleted at some point, even Norma's.

Cathy Moon
8th October 2008, 01:29 AM
I have complained about several nasty posts on there that were slanderous. Sometimes they are deleted, and sometimes not.

PS, can you guess who I am on there?

HollyDolly
8th October 2008, 01:41 AM
Give us a clue?

Jasperxxgabby
8th October 2008, 01:55 AM
Ohh I think I know.

HollyDolly
8th October 2008, 02:02 AM
OH I wanted to play the game for much longer:jump:

Cathy Moon
8th October 2008, 02:17 AM
I was afraid a few of them would go for my jugular, or at the very least delete every word I said.

Karlin
8th October 2008, 02:19 PM
Just FYI was amused to read that some are resorting to Googling to try to bring up posts on 'certain' boards and lists. :lol: I will not flatter myself to think that this means CavalierTalk and that some breeders are so desperate to read this board that they would actually spend time trying to do that to read posts here... but perhaps it is true... :cool:

I'll eventually flip this forum back to open access so they can read away! -- but for now it continues to be amusing to make some folks have to take up so much of their day trying to find out what people are talking about. I think they would actually get a much better idea of the general public's views however from some of the large public lists like Dogpages.co.uk however, or comments on news stories on publication websites -- surely it cannot matter much what our much smaller membership says here? Or maybe they think what we think and say is -- gasp! -- Important?!

:rotfl:

I certainly don't waste time now reading their posts and comments elsewhere simply because they have made the same arguments for years, coming from the same people. Surely they can predict some of what will be said here too and thus, don't need to sloooooowly access board posts through the tedious process of googling people's names and relevant keywords? :badgrin: I know a lot of us are doing far more productive things behind the scenes. :cool: I hope at least some of them are too! :)

I do see that someone has independently confirmed that what the KC said about the CKCS Club SGM and its support for Margaret Carter is official. So sadly, their hopes are now dashed that this was just Ryan O'Meara making things up. :lol:

Jan Bell
8th October 2008, 02:30 PM
I certainly don't waste time now reading their posts and comments elsewhere simply because they have made the same arguments for years, coming from the same people.


Yes, took me a while to get it, but I have now stopped bothering with them too. Although I did do a quick trawl round the general dog sites yesterday just to get the satisfaction of seeing all the people supporting Margaret!:razz:

Karlin
8th October 2008, 04:18 PM
Well I lied -- sometimes I do read my email list subscriptions just because they produce gems like this, from the moderators of the Allaboutcavaliers list, who are paranoid trying to figure out how I can read their posts (doh! Just as Veronica said on that very list about Cavaliertalk, noting her assumption that I *would* read her post -- which implies they have no idea who is on their list anyway... :rolleyes: -- and they are right! :lol:)

...with many, many memberships going way back before you were all so worried about SGMs, and given how easy it is to register under any old name, including 'one of your own', is it any wonder I could be on the list? Or be on the list under three different names, for that matter?

Anyway I thought it ironic (given that one of the former breeder members here had offered on that very list to email on your messages, and given that they crosspost from here) that moderator Kathy Yonkers would say this:


I was just informed that KL might be signing on to this forum via the
webpage or is having someone forward posts to her.

She wrote to a member quoting the post this member had made to this
forum.

We are going to have our security person work on this....while this
investigation is occurring, if you forwarded posts or given web access
to these parties sign off now before you are embarrassed in front of
the forum.

Remember these posts are copyrighted by the individual and individuals
have to be approved to join our discussion group. If you are reading
these posts and are not a member you in violation.

The Moderators.. .>>


Man, how paranoid is THAT? Let's not be coy,then -- the forum member I wrote to was the one removed from this list: Nancy. I do not like naming names but given what is going on on the Allabout list, I feel obliged to let those of you who post to other lists and boards know who these people are as they discuss YOU and YOUR posts while posting in a friendly way on other sites where you also are members. This is two faced and duplicitous and they might want to explain themselves elsewhere, where they remain members.

Given that I can produce plenty of evidence that the Allabout team have violated their own 'crossposting' rule with lots of posts from other websites and boards and lists, they will have problems complaining about me 'crossposting'. And anyway they have to figure out who the real KL is anyway. :lol:

They have violated, again and again, Yahoo's own policy on use of lists and if they dare to post another post from any of you from other Yahoo lists to that list I will submit all the evidence to Yahoo which will cause their group to be barred from using Yahoo as they have violated the Yahoo Groups terms of agreement. As some of them should know.

frecklesmom
8th October 2008, 04:28 PM
"They" could use a few more bumps in the road-some are so awful. Winning a discussion means cutting opponent off at knees-doesn't matter the subject being discussed. Good thing they can't find out an opponent's past history in re: to say juvenile behavior or they'd go after that. A little Logic 101 infused subconsciously into them would enable honest discussion-maybe....hmmm..anyone have telepathic abilities?

AT
8th October 2008, 04:33 PM
who are paranoid trying to figure out how I can read their posts



If people really don't want others reading their posts then they shouldnt post on message boards , infact if something is so secret they should phone each other or better yet learn to communicate telepathicly ,lol

Its not nice but it will happen even amongst " friends"

Karlin
8th October 2008, 04:46 PM
The Allaboutcavaliers list on Yahoo Groups has 436 members. Let me repeat: 436 members (though they seem to be removing some all right!). It would be amazing if all the other 435 members besides me (that is assuming I registered only once, of course) agreed with what they post and think. Still I am sure their 'security person' will have fun trying to figure out who is who, out of that 436.

But anyway: I do sincerely wish the security person happy hunting. I've used Yahoo Groups for many years and know how limited the tools are for administrating groups there. And that it isn't very hard to register or get online.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/allaboutcavaliers/

Karlin
8th October 2008, 04:49 PM
BTW, from their list description -- I'd forgotten this bit:


Keeping with the philosophy of the list owners, members can agree to disagree in a polite manner. No names of individuals or dogs can be presented in a negative light.

There is a zero tolerance flame policy.

:rotfl:

MX1
8th October 2008, 05:25 PM
The Allaboutcavaliers list on Yahoo Groups has 436 members. Let me repeat: 436 members (though they seem to be removing some all right!). It would be amazing if all the other 435 members besides me (that is assuming I registered only once, of course) agreed with what they post and think. Still I am sure their 'security person' will have fun trying to figure out who is who, out of that 436.

But anyway: I do sincerely wish the security person happy hunting. I've used Yahoo Groups for many years and know how limited the tools are for administrating groups there. And that it isn't very hard to register or get online.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/allaboutcavaliers/


Has this list always been invite only? It seems from your post that at one point it was an open join list.

Sorry to be so "new" just trying to get through all the politics.

Tim

Devilica
8th October 2008, 06:00 PM
I have to say that I actually find it very sad that there is a "them and us" between breeders and pet owners.
I can understand that it isnt going to change but wouldn't it be lovely if we could actually discuss issues in an adult, mature way.
When I first learnt that my bitch has SM, I read everything I could find on the matter. I joined several groups, but have found that most seem to be a "my dog is worse than yours" or even, god forbid, remind me of munchausen's by proxy!

It is a scary enough prospect dealing with an ill animal without having to wade through people bitching and backbiting, bringing their personal grievances out for everyone to be entertained by.

I freely admit I don't understand half of whats going on ( if even that much) but I would still like to thank the people who take their time to answer the questions of the people who are just looking for help and advice.
I would also like to thank Margaret Carter for making a stand and I am sorry that I could not support you at the SGM but I had already, having spoken to members of the CKCS club when searching for a puppy, decided that as a pet owner it wasn't a club I wanted to be associated with. Maybe a decision I will come to regret.

Ok I am beginning to ramble now.. I do actually enjoy my time here for the simple reason that generally we dont get much of the bitching that happens in the other groups. I can understand your frustrations Karlin, having read some very unpleasant things on other groups about a few people who's names I recognise from this board. Just try and remember that at least here you are offering the people that really need the help and advice, somewhere that we can find it without being flamed and abused. That is a good thing.

Right now breeders are not top of my list on decent people having had mine hang up on me when I phoned to tell her that Tilly had SM. That said, I do know they are not all bad. Oh for an ideal world where concern for your animals meant more than perfect showdogs or the sound of the cash machine.

Stopping now before you all think I am quite mad... although you may have a point :)

Rj Mac
8th October 2008, 06:19 PM
we are only members of this forum, for Cavaliers, and most of you will be aware of the deep affection we have for Cavalier Talk, and it's members, and yourself Karlin, sometimes I'l have a nosey on other sites, such as Dog world,and I have to admit, to being digusted by the treatment dished out by certain people on other lists, towards decent caring people, such as Margert C, yourself Pauline,and others, there is 1 person in particular, who seems to delight in being spiteful, and downright nasty,

As i've said before, I've stayed out of the debate's that have arisen from PDE, as i think it's been slightly out of my depth, mainly due to lack of knowledge on my part, what i will say is, that it's incredibly reassuring, and uplifting to know that there are so many decent, and caring people, who are trying to influence things for the betterment of our wonderful breed, despite what the small minded zealots say or try, in a bizzare effort to somehow maintain the status quo,


R.

Jan Bell
8th October 2008, 06:40 PM
...decided that as a pet owner it wasn't a club I wanted to be associated with


I can quite understand this, though when I joined I didn't really know much about the Club at all. In fact, it was only because Toby's breeder offered to sign me up (as she said you get a Cavalier newsletter and breed book to flick through) I joined.

I've never got involved at all, and (oh sad person) treated the breed book as a nice glossy set of photographs to look at. I am sorry to say that I never even followed all the health issues in a detailed way, hence my lack of knowledge about SM.

But now, with recent events, I do feel that I am glad I joined, and am encouraging other caring pet owners to join to. It is up to us to make our votes count and show we are supporting the people (pet owners and breeders) who are campaigning for Cavalier health, not those breeders who want to ignore all the research.

To me, this means uniting pet owners and breeders who are prepared to follow the breeding advice given on the basis of research done so far - advice given by the club itself. So I don't see it simply as a split between breeders and pet owners.

I found this forum because of all the recent events and am very glad I did, as it is a friendly place to chat and has lots of information. I have dipped my toe in posting on other boards but withdrew sharply when it was nipped! I don't have a place in my life for people like that.

I am sorry to hear that your dog has SM, but I am sure that you will find lots of support and advice here, without the competitive stuff.

Best wishes,

Karlin
8th October 2008, 06:57 PM
I'm never bothered by nasty things being said. :lol: I get a good laugh from them generally... not least as I have a fair bit of written evidence concerning quite a few of these nastier people who forget that not all the world sees things as they do, and that people do talk and save documentation. I just compile my folders of information, as do several of us, and wait for that information to be useful, at the right time and place.


actually find it very sad that there is a "them and us" between breeders and pet owners.

There isn't, between any decent breeder and any decent pet owner. Some pet owners have unrealistic expectations of what dog breeding is about -- but likewise some breeders view pet buyers as easy marks, both BYBs and millers but sadly many club breeders too.

There are plenty of threads here in which I have defended breeders against unrealistic expectations from puppy buyers -- that every dog come with a lifetime health guarantee for example. But breeders still have the greater responsibility to be informed and make the best choices in breeding that they can because their actions determine the future of the breed as well as the potential for problems in every litter. Right now, some make immoral choices to breed dogs they know have health problems, or choose not to test because knowing results might mean a moral obligation to remove a nice dog from their show/breeding programme. These are bottom line health issues.

Pet buyers do have a responsibility too if they care about the future of cavaliers -- and that is not to vote with your wallet or for convenience. If you put money into the pockets of people who do not test and breed affected dogs, then you too are complicit in damaging this breed, equally with breeders.

Please make a commitment to support the health-focused breeders who can talk to you and show you their scan and cardiologist results and discuss their breeding choices. Or support rescue and give a home to a dog that way. But don't opt for the untested, sometimes cheaper dog you can have this week rather than next year. When you make those choices, you are joining forces with those who do not care about this breed.

arasara
8th October 2008, 10:30 PM
I have to say that I actually find it very sad that there is a "them and us" between breeders and pet owners.

I found that ridiculous about the other list as well. Even on the opening page, it makes it clear that if you're just a "pet owner" you're not invited.

How easy it is for them to bite the hand that feeds them :rolleyes:


Right now, some make immoral choices to breed dogs they know have health problems, or choose not to test because knowing results might mean a moral obligation to remove a nice dog from their show/breeding programme.

I also find this truly disgusting. The last time I went to a cavalier show, I actually asked "hypothetically speaking, what happens if that dog comes down with a severe heart murmur in the next month?" and I was told that you have to be VERY careful, because some "breeders" are not in it for the right reasons and will continue to show and or breed their dogs :mad:

Karlin
8th October 2008, 11:25 PM
In the hunt for me, the Great Inquisition and Purge has begun on Allaboutcavaliers!

:rotfl:

Efficiently organised too -- users must email back according to the first letter of usernames with specific letters assigned on a set of days, but leaving out weekends so people can go to shows (I am not joking!). Members must reply by answering a number of questions so their existential reality may be ascertained by the grand inquisitors.

This is the plan:


Wednesday-Thursday- A-I

Monday-Tuesday J-O

Wednesday-Thursday P-Z

Include in your post:

Name
Email address
Why you enjoy this forum
Affix (kennel name)if applicable
Years in the breed
Memberships in which clubs
Location
If you access via your mailbox or via the webpage.


What sits a little funny with the comment


Thank you for making this forum a wonderful venue!

Is the closing sentence:


If you do not repond to the audit, you will be deleted. If anyone has an issue with any member email us privately.

The grand tradition of the McCarthy era continues -- inform on your fellow members if you think they have ever known, supported or associated with communi... I mean, Karlin. :rolleyes:

For any Allabout members reading, just a practical suggestion from someone who has run or been on lists like this for years: this will be a clumsy way of purging suspects simply because a huge number on any list are Nomail and rarely check the list online, while others get digest formats and don't always read them or read selectively, or are away.

If this is truly how they are going to hunt me out, I would guess we will see the list membership severely pruned in a week or two. Lots of members will find themselves off the forum and won't know why and probably will never rejoin -- or moderators will have the headache of having to sign lots of people back up again (after making sure they are not me, of course!).

And another free hint: if you want a private forum, folks, then set up a small closed forum for your core group rather than one with hundreds of members, many of whom will not hold your party line. That will be much harder for me to join in future. :thmbsup:

lady and amber
8th October 2008, 11:33 PM
:rotfl:Oh you are wicked Karlin :thmbsup:

*Pauline*
8th October 2008, 11:59 PM
Karlin, I found that a little hard to follow. Does this mean that I, being called Pauline would have to email that forum on a Wednesday and state my credentials? Anyone not doing this will be thrown out?

I'm not a member of that forum of course.

Karlin
9th October 2008, 12:05 AM
I suppose so! (Queue quietly according to your letter, please!) You'd only have today and tomorrow or forever lose your membership. :cry*ing: However I am guessing they won't actually in the end use this method, as it will remove so many members... On the other hand if 436 members reply, they will have a heck of a lot of reading and confirming to do! With thousands of cavalier breeders all around the world, it would be hard to confirm all the details are correct or that someone isn't making things up.

Just in case you are a member, don't forget to note


Why you enjoy this forum

You may wish to reply:

Because I know it is here to keep the online world safe from Karlin.

:lol:

diddy
9th October 2008, 12:13 AM
Yes wicked's the right word .....You should warn us in advance next time. I laughed out loud at that and splattered what was a nice cuppa all over the place, poor Jenna shot off my lap in panic. Ha Ha nice one.:thmbsup:

Cathy Moon
9th October 2008, 12:13 AM
:lol:

rosiesmum
9th October 2008, 12:20 AM
OMG - what totally pathetic people they are!!

The witch hunt that is going on for you Karlin is so childish - my 6 year old nephew is more mature than they are!

Had a thought Karlin, you could always open up one thread which anyone can access with a really provocative title, something like 'Breeders Who Voted Against Margaret C' but rather than listing names, have a great big raspberry blowing smiley instead. Ok, it means stooping to their level, but the looks on their faces would be priceless :D

Cathy Moon
9th October 2008, 12:30 AM
cl*p

sins
9th October 2008, 12:36 AM
Good heavens Karlin,
There'll be more reported sightings of you than Elvis before the week is over!!
I can tell them your exact location though.....
Under their skin:D

Mark
9th October 2008, 12:46 AM
The witch hunt that is going on for you Karlin is so childish - my 6 year old nephew is more mature than they are!



Don't think anyone is behaving maturely anymore, maybe it's because I'm a bloke. I find it all rather disappointing.

Karlin
9th October 2008, 12:55 AM
Well, sometimes you have to just act immature and have a laugh, faced with such utterly ridiculous activities. :lol: The underlying issues are very serious of course -- it's a shame people will now spend hours trying to rid a list of one person when they could be, say, raising money for Sarah Blott's estimated breeding value research? Pushing for new US research studies? Helping Anne Eckersley expand the health database? Organising transport to low cost scanning sessions instead of SGMs so those scan details can go to Sarah Blott? Raising money for breed rescue? :)

Cathy Moon
9th October 2008, 01:09 AM
Don't think anyone is behaving maturely anymore, maybe it's because I'm a bloke. I find it all rather disappointing.
You have no idea what we've been through lately. :eek:

Karlin
9th October 2008, 01:20 AM
But we can nominate Margaret to behave maturely for the rest of us, then we're off the hook. :rotfl:

diddy
9th October 2008, 11:27 PM
But we can nominate Margaret to behave maturely for the rest of us, then we're off the hook. :rotfl:

I'll second that !! :winkct:

Margaret C
10th October 2008, 12:58 AM
But we can nominate Margaret to behave maturely for the rest of us, then we're off the hook. :rotfl:


I do break out occasionally ( but I'm not going into any details.)

Margaret C

*Pauline*
10th October 2008, 01:00 AM
I do break out occasionally ( but I'm not going into any details.)

Margaret C

:lol: We've seen you in action Margaret, you still stay calm and dignified.

Lisa_T
10th October 2008, 02:35 AM
*wonders if it would be possible to join and then respond completely idiotically*

... or have several people sign up using different aliases and email addies, and then all responding to the request for name with "Karlin".

Tempting, tempting....

Cathy Moon
10th October 2008, 04:21 AM
icon_whistling hmmmmmm......

Shelli
10th October 2008, 12:31 PM
*wonders if it would be possible to join and then respond completely idiotically*

... or have several people sign up using different aliases and email addies, and then all responding to the request for name with "Karlin".

Tempting, tempting....


:badgrin::badgrin::badgrin::badgrin:

*Pauline*
10th October 2008, 06:41 PM
Just FYI was amused to read that some are resorting to Googling to try to bring up posts on 'certain' boards and lists. :lol: I will not flatter myself to think that this means CavalierTalk and that some breeders are so desperate to read this board that they would actually spend time trying to do that to read posts here... but perhaps it is true... :cool:

I'm afraid I was easy to find on google and I'm disliked on the DogWorld website, maybe why my thread on Dylan had 4,748 hits. You must be right.

sins
10th October 2008, 06:51 PM
According to the conspiracy theorists, you're most likely an agent for some far left animal rights group who wants to eradicate cavaliers from the face of the planet.
No doubt you're also involved in the plot to bring the banking system to it's knees.
:-p

*Pauline*
10th October 2008, 06:59 PM
According to the conspiracy theorists, you're most likely an agent for some far left animal rights group who wants to eradicate cavaliers from the face of the planet.
No doubt you're also involved in the plot to bring the banking system to it's knees.
:-p

OK, whose been talking?! :shifty:

Jan Bell
10th October 2008, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by Lisa_T http://board.cavaliertalk.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?p=290889#post290889)
*wonders if it would be possible to join and then respond completely idiotically*



....but would they be able to tell the difference from their normal posts.....

:jump:

*Pauline*
10th October 2008, 07:14 PM
Check this out, I'm still laughing. :lol:
Read comments 1 and 2 here:

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Breeds/BreedNotes/41-CAV

Mark
10th October 2008, 07:43 PM
You have no idea what we've been through lately. :eek:

I do and as Karlin says, time could be better spent tackling the actual issues.

*Pauline*
10th October 2008, 07:55 PM
Never doubt it Mark:thmbsup: Members from this board are writing letters, signing petitions, debating with breeders, providing whole websites dedicated to educating us about SM and MVD, web sites to support those who have dogs with SM, the list goes on. You be amazed at the time and money members have put in to trying to bring about change for the improved health of the breed.

Jan Bell
10th October 2008, 08:14 PM
Never doubt it Mark:thmbsup: Members from this board are writing letters, signing petitions, debating with breeders, providing whole websites dedicated to educating us about SM and MVD, web sites to support those who have dogs with SM, the list goes on. You be amazed at the time and money members have put in to trying to bring about change for the improved health of the breed.


Yes, there is a lot going on. But it's good to have a laugh too!:D

Lisa_T
10th October 2008, 09:09 PM
Er, what's the problem with mandatory spay/neuter - except presumably for licensed breeders? Sounds like a good idea to me. Make everyone neuter their dogs except those who breed for health and have the paperwork to prove it!

Bet's posts are starting to annoy me - not least because of the overuse of capitalisation. Sinister, fiddlesticks.

(Personally, I like the thought of Karlin being behind everything lately. Are you out for world domination? ;))

*Pauline*
10th October 2008, 09:47 PM
Er, what's the problem with mandatory spay/neuter - except presumably for licensed breeders?

I'm not clear on all the details but this was for 8 week old pups.:eek:

Shelli
10th October 2008, 09:59 PM
I'm not clear on all the details but this was for 8 week old pups.:eek:

Surely pups this age are too young to go under anesthetic (sp)??

Lisa_T
10th October 2008, 10:19 PM
I didn't even know it was possible to neuter a pup at that age!!!

*Pauline*
10th October 2008, 11:04 PM
Actually searching on google, I can't find anything on spaying/neutering at 8 weeks as mentioned on DogWorld. I had heard of a proposal for very young dogs being spayed/neutered though. I'll keep looking.

*Pauline*
10th October 2008, 11:08 PM
Well where ever I looked the age changed but I found this stating 6 months.
http://www.akc.org/canine_legislation/CA_action_center.cfm

diddy
10th October 2008, 11:16 PM
I'm not clear on all the details but this was for 8 week old pups.:eek:

Yes thats true. Our vet said just this week that puppys are now being brought in for spay/neutering at 7 or 8 weeks as routine!!:eek: Years ago it was usual to wait until after the first season.

Shelli
10th October 2008, 11:19 PM
Thats what my vet recommends, 6 months.

Alison_Leighfield
10th October 2008, 11:20 PM
I think that's as awful as it could ever get at 7-8wks. Shocking.

Alison.

rosiesmum
10th October 2008, 11:25 PM
I've found a few links about early spay/neuter (6-8 weeks of age)



This one is dated 2003

http://www.bestfriends.org/archives/forums/pediatric.html



There's also this, but I don't know when it was dated. You have to scroll down about halfway to find the section on early spay/neuter.

http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_SpayDay.php



Here's a page from the AVMA (American Vetinary Medical Association), which is mentioned in the paw-rescue link above

http://www.avma.org/issues/policy/animal_welfare/spay_neuter.asp



Here's another

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/earlysn.html



Can't find anything against early spay/neuter :(

Lancelot
10th October 2008, 11:30 PM
Have a look st this too:
http://www.pets.ca/articles/article-spay-neuter.htm (http://www.pets.ca/articles/article-spay-neuter.htm):

.....Early spays and neuters is the sterilization of puppies or kittens at 6 to 14 weeks of age, before they are sexually mature. The traditional age for spaying and neutering is 6 to 7 months of age. The concept of early spay and neuter was developed by humane societies and animal shelters to ensure that their animals are already sterilized before they are adopted out to the public...

Cathy Moon
11th October 2008, 12:45 AM
I do and as Karlin says, time could be better spent tackling the actual issues.
You are free to spend your time tackling issues, but don't tell me how to spend my time!:thmbsup:

Karlin
11th October 2008, 01:58 AM
Mark, are you tackling issues yourself and if so, how? If you have read many threads here you will see that many members are very busy doing just this. :thmbsup: But we have no evidence for what you are doing yourself.

As for me, I do enjoy a little laugh now and then, and especially at the expense of utterly ludicrous activities like purging a 436-member email list because I might be hiding behind some anonymous name. :rolleyes:

I am happy to put forward my own resume on tackling issues. As some here from Ireland will know, in addition to my full time day job as a journalist with the Irish Times and occasional broadcaster, I do a lot of pro bono work behind the scenes for individuals and groups on a range of issues, both animal related and on legal and constitutional/political issues; I regularly talk to groups and conferences on digital privacy rights/issues in Ireland; I run Ireland's only cavalier rescue (as the breed club does pretty much zilch -- and I rehome anywhere from 50-70 cavaliers annually now, which you will find far outstrips what some of the big regional breed rescues in the US rehome; at the moment for example I have seven dogs in rescue, and rescue is just me, entirely self funded through donations -- often from generous CavalierTalk members! --- and my pocket -- not from a large breed club and committee!); I have raised money for CKCS research and made personal donations to the UK research and AKC health trust for cavalier research in the US; I have paid for 6 MRIs of my dogs primarily for research (only one actually needed an MRI) which involved the costs of two trips to the UK from Ireland; I run my SM website, plus a Yahoo support list for people who own SM cavaliers, and answer emails weekly from owners of SM dogs asking for advice on low cost MRIs, caring for their dogs, and treatment options and suggestions for neurologists. I've attended both UK CKCS SM conferences, self-funded again, and at the first, supplied notes for each talk to my SM website and the second, recorded and produced CDs of all the talks with cooperation of all speakers, available from Cafepress with all income going to research. This board also costs me a significant amount of time and some personal expense to run which I do for free -- it isn't like setting up a free email list on Yahoo. I pay for domains, hosting, software -- and charge you nothing for being here. I give media advice and do free press releases for Irish rescue groups. My generous board members and I have gotten several several cavaliers out of horrible puppy farm situations and rehomed to new lives as pets. Finally, I just took a 5 minute break to put my cavalier Lily into her new lycra suit, which helps reduce her scratching from SM and keeps her from attacking her hind legs. Lily was a rescue that came in and whose scratching I spotted during foster -- and as I suspected she might possibly have SM because of the way she scratched (since MRI-confirmed, my second symptomatic SM dog) , I kept her myself, even though I didn't exactly need another cavalier -- but I didn't feel I could rehome her as a rescue, in contrast to what some breeders have done with dogs that they knew had SM but where they figured people an ocean or two away might not know about and thus pay for or use at stud.

So I think I -- and many here who have directly or indirectly helped me on all these tasks -- do plenty of 'issue' work. :) I don't normally talk about any of these things -- but I think it very important to give you a resume of activities as you seem to think people just post without doing anything themselves.

If you are posting critically, it makes sense for you to define what you yourself are doing perhaps? Besides spending your time reading threads on Cavaliertalk! :lol:

But regardless of anyone's take or what anyone does or doesn't do, even during a revolution there has to be humour... :rotfl:

frecklesmom
11th October 2008, 02:49 AM
As a retired nurse, Mark, let me tell you that when there is a lot of tension a bit of humor helps settle. I've worked surgical intensive care and had "my own" neurological intensive care and no one working those areas could survive without a chuckle-unbelievable for some but it does refresh and enable people to get back to task. :thmbsup:

Jan Bell
11th October 2008, 10:00 AM
Check this out, I'm still laughing. :lol:
Read comments 1 and 2 here:

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Breeds/BreedNotes/41-CAV (http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Breeds/BreedNotes/41-CAV)
I have come to believe the BH is actually a secret agent for our side; otherwise, how can you explain all these wildly over the top posts.

But on a more serious side a nice measured response from Jemima (assuming her post survives the day of course).

Aileen
11th October 2008, 11:37 AM
Do they take the post off?
---Aileen and the gang (Barney---Jazzie----Jake)

*Pauline*
11th October 2008, 11:42 AM
Do they take the post off?


No it's still there. Post 8

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Breeds/BreedNotes/41-CAV

Mark
11th October 2008, 02:35 PM
I'm not criticising or telling anyone how to spend their time. I just think we can't assume what other groups are or aren't doing as they can't assume what people here are doing:)

Hopefully this will all end in a 'resolution' rather than a 'revolution':xfngr:

Cathy Moon
11th October 2008, 06:26 PM
Check this out, I'm still laughing. :lol:
Read comments 1 and 2 here:

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Breeds/BreedNotes/41-CAV

:rotfl:

AT
11th October 2008, 07:20 PM
I'm getting very tired of all this " your breed is worse than my breed" .

if people believe the studies are biased then perhaps they could have their own dogs scanned to redress the balance.
not that it really matters because such a horrible illness needs to addressed wether its rare or not

Daisy's Mom
11th October 2008, 07:53 PM
I agree -- that Bet person is a broken record on all those posts with the "all small breeds have it, not just Cavaliers" thing! I just don't see what is so important about that point. If it's a problem, it's a problem, no matter if other breeds have it or not, am I right?

I understand that she thought the documentary unfairly singled out Cavaliers, but the problem is still a problem and her constantly making that same statement over and over is idiotic, annoying, and pointless, IMO.

Reading those posts on DogWorld that have been linked here is an eye opening experience. I wonder if I've been quoted there before without my knowing it. Heaven knows I've expressed a few strong opinions here about the breeders in the documentary! :)

sins
11th October 2008, 08:04 PM
The documentary didn't unfairly single out cavaliers.
I assume that there's a limit to what you can fit into less than an hour of screentime.There were many other breeds selected as subject matter and it seems to be only the cavalier fraternity who are having apopleptic fits about it.
At first I wasn't sure about the value of the documentary, but now having seen what's ensued in it's wake ,my only regret is that it wasn't done as a 12 part series!!!

Cathy Moon
11th October 2008, 08:36 PM
but now having seen what's ensued in it's wake ,my only regret is that it wasn't done as a 12 part series!!!
Ditto for me!

AT
11th October 2008, 10:23 PM
I agree -- that Bet person is a broken record on all those posts with the "all small breeds have it, not just Cavaliers" thing! I just don't see what is so important about that point. If it's a problem, it's a problem, no matter if other breeds have it or not, am I right?

:)

aswell as cavaliers I have charlies & a papillon , I have just lost my charlie to sm , my previous cavalier had some suspicious symptoms & my papillon is scratching quite a bit (though I think it may be because of a disk problem , i'm going to mention it to the vet ) so I have concerns about her too.

so it really doesnt matter to me wether its mainly a cavalier problem or not dogs are still suffering regardless of the breed. I want everyone to take it seriously & work together for a solution

Mark
11th October 2008, 10:35 PM
I want everyone to take it seriously & work together for a solution

Hear hear!!

HollyDolly
11th October 2008, 10:52 PM
aswell as cavaliers I have charlies & a papillon , I have just lost my charlie to sm , my previous cavalier had some suspicious symptoms & my papillon is scratching quite a bit (though I think it may be because of a disk problem , i'm going to mention it to the vet ) so I have concerns about her too.

so it really doesnt matter to me wether its mainly a cavalier problem or not dogs are still suffering regardless of the breed. I want everyone to take it seriously & work together for a solution
I am so sorry to hear that you have lost your charlie to SM, it is without doubt a most dreadful illness. I doubt very much if these breeders who are not health focused will work together, as they have shown in their hundreds that POLITICS come before breeding healthy cavaliers. They say that some breeders do not want to publicise the fact that they are scanning their dogs, why not? If they are clear of SM then surely it would make perfect sense for their kennel to be proud of that fact to show they are health focused and care for this lovely breed.

Maxwell&me
11th October 2008, 11:18 PM
Wow...Have I been missing a few things around here!

( Ive actually had to work the last month or so ...and haven't had as much free time, miss you all)

Karlin, Thanks again for all you do- and a bit of fun once and awhile never hurt anyone- Thanks to everyone else for doing so much for our beloved breed..I had better get back to catching up now! I'm feeling a little disconnected!

:dogwlk:

Cathy Moon
11th October 2008, 11:40 PM
I think Pedigree Dogs exposed was aired on August 19 on BBC in UK. So start reading posts from just before that date!:thmbsup:

Karlin
12th October 2008, 02:06 AM
so it really doesnt matter to me wether its mainly a cavalier problem or not dogs are still suffering regardless of the breed. I want everyone to take it seriously & work together for a solution

Absolutely -- that's why I don't understand why it is so important to some cavalier breeders to keep insisting that other breeds get it. Well, doh! Dr Clare Rusbridge has been stating this (http://sm.cavaliertalk.com/diagnosing/diagnosing/infosheet.html) for years. The first documents I read from her noted that SM was appearing in some other toy breeds and the first support group I was on a few years ago had a couple of affected yorkies, a Boston, a chihuahua and a staffie. My SM site had info on the known affected breeds for a few years now.

I get a lot of private emails from people with dogs that have been diagnosed and every time someone with a different breed contacts me I have put them in touch with Dr Rusbridge as this information is important and helps with the research. Nonetheless, it also remains true that neurologists have seen no other breed in such numbers as cavaliers and that remains the bulk of decompression surgeries too. Many of the other breeds are only known as single cases or a handful of dogs -- but the worrying thing is that there appears to be a problem with toy breeds that has shown up sooner and more severely in cavaliers but clearly affects other toys.

Brussels Griffon breeders have already helped to fund an initial research study (http://www.vet.uga.edu/hospital/smallanimal/neurology/syringomyelia.php) at the Univ. of Georgia so there are some other research studies underway. The genome research includes DNA from a number of other affected breeds (and the clear Griffons).

One of the most helpful things anyone can do if you have had your dog scanned -- regardless of result -- is to submit this to Dr Sarah Blott for the EBV research. It is also one of the ways to help produce the most honest snapshot of both lines and individual cavaliers and it is a very direct and important way that pet owners can have a big impact. Because breeders hang on to only a small number of the dogs of their breeding, most affected dogs are probably in pet homes. Please make sure their status gets registered for the estimated breeding values project. Probably most of the better grade dogs will come from breeders as they are more likely to MRI multiple dogs. Pet owners tend to MRI only if they believe they have an affected dog.

AT
12th October 2008, 05:29 PM
Many of the other breeds are only known as single cases or a handful of dogs -- but the worrying thing is that there appears to be a problem with toy breeds that has shown up sooner and more severely in cavaliers but clearly affects other toys.

.

perhaps thats something to do with cavaliers going from a handful of dogs after the war to many thousands in a short space of time compared to other toy breeds

I'm also getting sick of hearing that most SM dogs are rescue ( really ?) & thus must be from puppyfarms ( show bred dogs end up in rescue too ) so its all the puppyfarmers fault.

puppyfarms dont test their dogs so how does that fit with the argument that heart testing has caused sm so we shouldnt test dogs because it makes the gene pool smaller & worse things will appear.

& while i'm on a rant ,lol All this about scanning wont find the carriers so why should we bother.
my very basic understanding of genetics ( & I know is thought to be much more complicated in sm )is in recessive conditions a dog has to get copy of a gene from each parent.
so if you breed two carriers together some pups will be "clean " some pups will be carriers & some will be affected.
if you breed two affected dogs together all the puppies will be affected

So if it was a recessive condition ( though no one knows the inheritence yet ) yes scanning won't find the carriers but it will hopefully reduce the incidence by making sure no two obviously affected dogs are bred together ?

Mark
12th October 2008, 05:34 PM
if you breed two affected dogs together all the puppies will be affected



No this isn't the case, it isn't this straightforward at all unfortunately

Karlin
12th October 2008, 05:37 PM
I'm also getting sick of hearing that most SM dogs are rescue ( really ?) & thus must be from puppyfarms ( show bred dogs end up in rescue too ) so its all the puppyfarmers fault.


All the research has shown the genes are likely to be pretty broadly distributed and if anything, the excessive use of a few sires is what has possibly done more to accelerate the problem, so some researchers believe SM actually could be more likely to show up in show breeder dogs for this reason.

But: most puppy farm and BYB dogs are so close to all the main lines anyway and also are so much more likely to have other problems -- that I wouldn't opt for such an unethical option. Puppy buyers should keep in mind most cavaliers are still going to die from MVD not SM and proper adherence to the MVD protocol has to remain of top importance too. :thmbsup:

I get regular reports back from puppy buyers who say such and such breeders says they have never had a case of SM in their lines -- this is what worries me a lot more as I KNOW many of these breeders have indeed had cases because I have had contact from the people with their dogs and have seen the pedigrees. There is a LOT of lying going on and from many prominent names.

Cathy Moon
12th October 2008, 05:45 PM
So yes scanning won't find the carriers but it will hopefully reduce the incidence by making sure no two obviously affected dogs are bred together ?

I agree. I feel it is wrong to treat cavalier health like it's a game of russian roulette. That's why MRI scanning and finding A graded dogs is so important.

There is a cavalier breeder in the US who has been carefully breeding away from SM and CM for years, and she is making good progress. :thmbsup: If more breeders would follow in her footsteps the cavalier breed will be better for it.

Karlin
12th October 2008, 05:46 PM
Incidentally, I will likely flip the forum back to open access next week. Maybe to celebrate the 3,000 registration. Though some of those recently were some breeders trying to view these threads -- how ironic that they will give the site its last little boost towards 3,000 members. :lol:

I've regularly considered having the main discussion part of the site as a registration only area (eg as it is now) all the time though. If anyone has opinions let me know. My leaning is to have it open access.

As I said at the very start of this thread, I didn't make the forum private so that conversations would be secret. It isn't that difficult to register etc. Mainly I just wanted to spoil the fun of those who wanted to rush and read what everyone here was saying post the SGM. As I have seen ample evidence of how much that frustrated people it achieved that aim. :lol: But I know from their own posts that they've one way or another been able to get access to the conversations, which is fine 8). If I wanted to keep conversations secret, I wouldn't allow them to be posted to a site with almost 3,000 members, would I... :rotfl:

Cathy Moon
12th October 2008, 05:57 PM
I get regular reports back from puppy buyers who say such and such breeders says they have never had a case of SM in their lines -- this is what worries me a lot more as I KNOW many of these breeders have indeed had cases because I have had contact from the people with their dogs and have seen the pedigrees. There is a LOT of lying going on and from many prominent names.
Of all my cavalier acquaintances and contacts (not including anyone from CavTalk) I would have to say the cavaliers diagnosed with SM are from show breeders. I could name off a list of well known UK breeders from their pedigrees, but of course I won't.

The only SM diagnosed cavalier I know of that wasn't from a show breeder was our rescue boy Charlie. He was from a BYB.

AT
12th October 2008, 05:58 PM
But: most puppy farm and BYB dogs are so close to all the main lines anyway and also are so much more likely to have other problems -- that I wouldn't opt for such an unethical option.
.

The worst cruelty case puppyfarm cavaliers we had had very "nice" pedigree's they got a lot of attention from the show breeders who saw them.

under the surface there is very little difference between show dogs & puppyfarm dogs. most puppyfarm dogs have show dogs behind them & vise versa

The big difference is between good breeders & bad breeders ;)

Karlin
12th October 2008, 06:03 PM
Well, Lily is presumably a BYB dog and is diagnosed. :thmbsup: It is so easy for dogs from breeder lines to end up with BYBs and puppy farms/mills though. I know of more than one breeder who actually found one of their own dogs after puppy mill raids when they were helping to place the dogs via rescue. And so many dogs are sold on open reg. no spay contract, and they do definitely get bred. I was at a vets recently and saw a really nice looking cavalier and it had been bought from a pet shop in the UK!!

Cathy Moon
12th October 2008, 06:09 PM
I've regularly considered having the main discussion part of the site as a registration only area (eg as it is now) all the time though. If anyone has opinions let me know. My leaning is to have it open access
I would rather it be open access [for reading only, not posting!]. I think it gives the breeders a bit of a reality check in regards to pet owners thoughts and concerns.

One thing I really object to, however is people who copy/paste our conversations like one ex-member did recently. That upset me, but I suppose nothing can be done to prevent it?

tara
12th October 2008, 06:57 PM
Karlin -- would you recommend scanning a pet if the owner does not suspect SM, just to provide Sarah Blott's study with information? If so, what age would you recommend doing the scan?

Devilica
12th October 2008, 07:04 PM
Karlin -- would you recommend scanning a pet if the owner does not suspect SM, just to provide Sarah Blott's study with information? If so, what age would you recommend doing the scan?

That would be a very costly thing as mine cost £1100 and obviously if your dog wasn't symptomatic your insurance wouldn't cover it.

Mark
12th October 2008, 07:18 PM
Karlin -- would you recommend scanning a pet if the owner does not suspect SM, just to provide Sarah Blott's study with information? If so, what age would you recommend doing the scan?

It would probably be better to ask your vet this

Karlin
12th October 2008, 08:08 PM
There are many low cost scanning programmes in the UK (see my SM website but there are a few additional centres doing scans as well that I haven't yet added in) and you can scan for as low as £100 as sometimes pet owners can get a spot on the club scanning programmes. Otherwise I believe you will pay around £250-300, so it isn't insignificant though not as high as £1000 plus.

If you feel a commitment to research and want to scan, there's no reason not to if you really want to, and if you have a decent pedigree as the information will be far more useful than a dog with a pedigree with lots of unknown dogs (eg like a lot of pet-bred dogs from small ads/pet shops/internet that nonetheless are KC or IKC or AKC registered...). Then the information doesn't really get calculated into anything. If someone has scanned such a dog then by all means submit it but I don't think I'd go out of the way to scan an unsymptomatic dog of fairly vague background in its pedigree.

The one caution is that a scan either involves sedating or a general anaesthetic so there is that small risk as well.

Because I was scanning one dog for medical reasons each time I have gone to Geoff Skerritt, I just did all my dogs at the time, as a donation to research because I was going anyway.