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View Full Version : MRIs and breeding, our story, how we got here.



neves
9th October 2008, 02:02 PM
I don't know if I'm posting to the right place at all - or if there is 'an audience' to this kind of ramblings here at all.

I am a breeder of cavaliers (the affix is 'co-owned' with my mother) and have lived with them most of my life. I wrote lived *with* them to be precise, because we have never had a separate kennel, dog-room or such at any point, so the exposure has certainly been a full one ;). By saying this, I do not want to point out anything to do with being a good or a bad breeder, simply as a way to explain, our breeding is very small scale and that we think of ourselves more as breeding pet owners. My mother has 3 cavaliers and a charlie - I have the same but opposite 1 cav + 3 charlies. We almost always place the most promising bitch or dog from the litter we produce to live in a family close to us on breeding terms (this contract usually covers one litter, we cover the expenses for the health screening and showing etc.). This is the way how it is possible for us to continue breeding in the way that all of our dogs still get to live as pets.

Health has always been the cornerstone in our breeding programme. We have learned over and over again, that there is no shortcut to better health and have become more and more critical towards our breeding programme during the years and at the same time trying to learn more and more about the health issues and what can be done. Now this has a reason that I want to explain.

We were honestly blessed with our foundation and we hope we could always be able to produce cavaliers like her. Our Honey came from mixed UK bloodlines and a very long-lived family. Her mother lived up to 14yrs, her full sister from an earlier litter (the only puppy) almost 15yrs, her litter brother 12yrs, herself 4 months short of 16 yrs. I do not know if she would still be with us if her daughter that we kept at home would still be with us - Sandy died peacefully at home at the age of 13. Sandy still had a clear heart (official auscultation only 6mths before she passed away) but her liver failure finally took the best of her after 2 1/2 yrs of the diagnose and she died in my mother's arms one January morning, at 6 am.

A week later we had to take Honey on her final journey, because since Sandy's death she had refused to eat, drink, go out and generally be herself - there was nothing to be done and we decided this was the only solution, no matter how hard it was. We were in pieces by the sudden loss of our two brightest stars. Up until Sandy's death Honey had been a happy, utterly active and such a well muscled cavalier who definitely did not look her age. She 'oozed' confidence and charm, she was a true companion and a sweetheart and never slowed down as she got older. Honey even took part in her last show only a few weeks earlier (only because she really *loved* showing, applauses and people admiring her), the main event of the year, 'our crufts' - the Winner show, and competed against veterans *half* her age. She was awarded as the 4th best bitch eventually out of the over 100 cavaliers entered and was recommended by the judge as one of the best movers of the whole day.

So - back to the actual topic --- during the years and now, Honey showed us there was hope and possibilities; we had lived with 'the perfect example of the cavalier breed', we experienced what there could be, if the breed would not suffer from MVD or SM.

We have always tried to follow the breeding guidelines. We have made some exceptions, when we have thought the dog/bitch to bring something very valuable to our breeding programme. Lately we have preferred to use dogs that are slightly older, preferably with a long-lived and heart-healthy family behind to continue the valuable genes that we have hopefully coming from Honey and her progeny.

In Finland we have the following guidelines for breeding:
1) all cavalier litters that are registered (The Finnish Kennel Club, member of FCI and our only breed registry) must have heart certificates for both the sire and the dam. The certificate cannot be older than 12 months. This programme is part of the FKC prevention of hederitary illnesses and defects. Several breeds have similar rules for other defects such as HD or various eye illnesses. Our programme has been running since 1995 and the results are nowdays publically shown on the FKC pedigree database (http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmEtusivu.aspx?R=136).
2) Our breed club has the following guidelines in addition to this:
- Since 2007 the breeding age was raised from 12 months to 24 months
- Since early 90s the patellas have had to be at least 0+1 & 0+0
- Since "", official eye examinations should not show signs of hederitary eye illnesses (PRA, HC, RD)
- The dog should be awarded at a show with 'excellent' and the bitch with at least 'very good' (FCI)

NOW, since October 2007 we have had the possibility to MRI asymptomatic, clinically healthy cavaliers in Finland. We have only one clinic at the moment here in the capital region doing the MRIs, but we hope to have some more places in the near future. Only 40 dogs have been MRIs despite our cavalier club funding every scan by 100 euros, dropping the price from 400 to 300 euros. All the time I wish the biggest breeders and producers would see the light...

We have started slowly by doing the least we can. Emmy and her litter brother Emppu, who both turned 3 in August this year were both MRId in August/September. Both had a mild CM but no signs of SM, no syrinxes, no sign of hydrocephalus and both clear of PSOM and normal BAER-results. We are overjoyed by these two results (both 'A') but understand they are only 2 dogs out of the lot that we are still planning to keep in our breeding programme (should they be eligible in every other way).

Emmy had her first litter in the spring and Emppu we have used for a co-owned bitch that is a gr-gr-gr-greatgranddaughter of our Honey, Helmi. Hermi has not been MRId, thus giving her the grade 'D'. According to the guidelines we have now mated her with an 'A'.

Emmy we are planning to mate again in a year or so and we hope to find her an MRId mate. We are happy to see that some other breeders have taken their dogs to be MRId as well (small scale just like us...only one bigger breeder has taken some of the studs to be screened, but unfortunately not all and none since the first lot and some D-grades...).

The future? well, definitely not 'rosy', but hopefully not black. I guess I wanted to share a small piece of our world with you - after all, this forum is always the first place that I come to to find well written information, news from the health research and to keep myself connected to what's happening in the cavalier world abroad. Thank you to everyone who had the time to read this and sorry for any spelling/grammar mistakes and for not being economical with my words... ;)

Karlin
9th October 2008, 02:14 PM
This is of interest to a lot of people I think so I duplicated the thread over to the general news section too! Thank you for the details about the Finnish club and its approach and to the plans for MRIs. Now I am going to go back & reread your post for the details again! :)

Alison_Leighfield
9th October 2008, 02:44 PM
Thank you Sara, you sound like a very caring and understand health focused breeder, I wish there were lots more like you :)

Alison.

Jan Bell
9th October 2008, 03:39 PM
Sara,

Thank you for your post which is very interesting. I hope that more breeders in the UK will follow your example in years to come.

Best wishes,

AT
9th October 2008, 03:45 PM
Hello sara :)
I know you through the charlie lists ( I am a member of your forum & have a dog from ms dumortier)

it is great that you are scanning your cavaliers ! . I myself lost my old charlie girl to SM 2 weeks ago. it is a horrible illness, I can't think of much worse a dog can go through.


angela

Shelli
9th October 2008, 03:54 PM
Thanks for sharing that with us Sara. Hopefully more breeders will follow in your footsteps :xfngr:

neves
9th October 2008, 04:20 PM
Hi all, thanks for reading and for your comments.

Angela, I am so sorry for your loss, our condolences.
I just heard of another charlie who had to be put to sleep at a very young age due to SM. It is a pity that charlies too have this on top of the other things and being so few in number. Two that I know certainly know of, but surely not the only ones.

Karlin, I think I wasn't too clear on the breeding guidelines, there are many other things that I should say in connection with this. Perhaps at some point, I could translate them in all entirity.

I will let you all know how our plans/future MRIs go. We are just waiting for two of our girls to turn 2,5 yrs and there should be at least one more MRI result for us this year.

AT
9th October 2008, 04:30 PM
Hi all, thanks for reading and for your comments.

Angela, I am so sorry for your loss, our condolences.
I just heard of another charlie who had to be put to sleep at a very young age due to SM. It is a pity that charlies too have this on top of the other things and being so few in number. Two that I know certainly know of, but surely not the only ones.

.

Thankyou

I can think of at least 10 charlies with SM owned by people on the internet groups.

My sisters old ruby charlie also has symptoms.
It is really frightening.....

I only have one charlie now, I would love a puppy but not until more is done about the sm problem.

I wish you lived in the uk !

Evelyn
9th October 2008, 04:42 PM
Thank you Sara for being so open and informative about your cavalier and charlie families.
You obviously had a very good start with Honey but you kept to your beliefs and did matings with good heart health in mind. I'm sure you will do the same with the SM and will I'm sure make progress in eliminating or lessening these aflictions on our lovely breeds.

neves
9th October 2008, 05:30 PM
I can think of at least 10 charlies with SM owned by people on the internet groups.



What can I say - I am not surprised. I am so sad, but refuse to give up on either breed. With charlies I'm just a beginner (I've had them since 2003) and I believe there are many things I could do more - i.e. go abroad to find new bloodlines and to try to find a solution to MRI them.

To breed the charlie-litter that was born this January (7 puppies, unfortunately one girl died at the age of 2 wks) was behind a really tough decision. The dame was my now 5 yr old Buffy who has some dogs in the background with heart-murmurs. But she also has some healthy, long lived relatives and is a good example of nicely mixed bloodlines from UK, USA and France. She herself is still ok (she has also had her knees checked, they are 0+1, and her eyes too - they're ok as well), no heart murmurs or signs of SM. I would really like to have her MRId too, but at the moment the agreement with the clinic is for cavaliers only. I thought she is valuable enough for the breed as a healthy bitch but also because she has such a nice character. I even had her mental tested (a mental test made originally for working dogs) and the results were ok ;). But yeah, I never thought I would breed charlies... cavaliers are difficult enough :D

I chose to keep one puppy from this litter (by 'accident' a dog not a bitch 8)) and so I shall see how the line continues, if it continues.

For charlies there are no breeding programs by the FKC, but the breed club has roughly the same guidelines as for cavaliers (heart+eyes+knees need to be checked and healthy). I know a few charlie breeders I know would never admit SM would be a problem in charlies - a few don't even believe MVD (or similar) exists in charlies as it's 'only a cavalier problem'. Luckily quite a few people have gotten round charlies after they have had cavaliers, it's a lot easier for them to do the same kind of health screening for their charlies as they have done for their cavaliers.

Sorry for the charlie-biased post, I know this is a cavalier-forum...!

AT
9th October 2008, 06:29 PM
I know a few charlie breeders I know would never admit SM would be a problem in charlies - a few don't even believe MVD (or similar) exists in charlies as it's 'only a cavalier problem'. Luckily quite a few people have gotten round charlies after they have had cavaliers, it's a lot easier for them to do the same kind of health screening for their charlies as they have done for their cavaliers.

Sorry for the charlie-biased post, I know this is a cavalier-forum...!

It is certainly not as bad in charlies but its still a problem , I lost an 8 year old to mvd . the other two were 11 & 12.
My girl that just died still had a good heart at 11 & I had an 11 year old boy who still had a good heart when he was put to sleep for a back injury.

my sisters two boys still have good hearts at 10 & 12

we also had a rescue charlie who was about 16 when she died. so its not all doom & gloom.

Love my Cavaliers
9th October 2008, 08:53 PM
I'm going to fess up to my ignorance - what kind of dog is a "charlie"?

Karlin
9th October 2008, 09:11 PM
A King Charles spaniel (http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=10712); known in the US as an English Toy Spaniel. It is the breed from which cavaliers were reintroduced, though originally the toy spaniel was longer nosed as you can see in old paintings. Also from 19th c paintings you can see there were still lots of longer nosed cavalier type toy spaniels around as well.

The Charlie discussion is very interesting! And they are close cousins too. :)

AT
9th October 2008, 10:07 PM
And they are close cousins too. :)

probably closer than you think in somecases ,lol

a couple of my charlies from a certain line have been more cavalier in character.
Then there are some suspiciously shortnosed freckled cavaliers around too ;)

*Pauline*
10th October 2008, 12:32 AM
Sara, you're a breath of fresh air :D Bless you. You give me some hope. Your English is perfect and very interesting. Best wishes to your Mother.:flwr:

neves
10th October 2008, 11:32 AM
... so its not all doom & gloom.

You are correct - I always try to find the positive side in everything :)

neves
10th October 2008, 11:55 AM
Sara, you're a breath of fresh air :D Bless you. You give me some hope. Your English is perfect and very interesting. Best wishes to your Mother.:flwr:

Thank you Pauline - my English is ok I guess - just a bit rusty from no practise (maybe that's what makes it interesting...te-hee! ;)). I did live in UK for 5 years, but have been back in Finland for almost 8 now. I don't sound as <good> anymore when I speak, but at least I can express myself quite clearly.

Thank you on my mum's behalf - just spoke with her on the phone and made plans for next weekend's show and found out we have entered my kc puppy Orly twice to the same show http://www.senocular.com/smilies/doh.gifhttp://www.senocular.com/smilies/embarassed.gif

entirely OT: happy to find out Finn Martti Ahtisaari (our previous president) was just nominated the Nobel peace prize "for his important efforts, on several continents and over more than three decades, to resolve international conflicts"

<tongue-in-cheek mode on>
Keeping in mind all that has happened during the last months or so, maybe he should come and resolve some conflicts in the dog world too...<tongue-in-cheek mode off>

*Pauline*
10th October 2008, 12:00 PM
happy to find out Finn Martti Ahtisaari (our previous president) was just nominated the Nobel peace prize "for his important efforts, on several continents and over more than three decades, to resolve international conflicts"

<tongue-in-cheek mode on>
Keeping in mind all that has happened during the last months or so, maybe he should come and resolve some conflicts in the dog world too...<tongue-in-cheek mode off>

Maybe he can join forces with Margaret:thmbsup:

neves
10th October 2008, 12:08 PM
Maybe he can join forces with Margaret:thmbsup:

http://www.senocular.com/smilies/yes.gif

I'm sure he would join those with truly altruistic intentions and fight for the best outcome for the dogs ;)

*Pauline*
10th October 2008, 12:12 PM
See, your English is better than mine, I had to look up "altruistic" in the dictionary!!

neves
10th October 2008, 12:32 PM
:cool:

AT
10th October 2008, 01:53 PM
You are correct - I always try to find the positive side in everything :)

I try ,lol but I am really not very lucky with dogs ( or any pets , my birds & fish did not live long either )

We have had some very nice sweet tempered healthy charlies. Its just hard to find more of them when breeders are not honest.