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Ciren
3rd November 2008, 09:35 AM
i just got novembers edition OMG what a wonderful thing to read! nearly every page was a slating of the KC for how they treated Margaret and Carol!

Cav talk even got a mention! i feel really positive about the future now.

p.s could you all nag me to sort the application forms for the cav club as i keep forgetting.

*Pauline*
3rd November 2008, 10:06 AM
Yes I have a copy. Lovely picture of Margaret.

Did you notice the section near the back where they graphed the health problems of every breed. I wondered why King Charles Spaniels (Charlies) didn't have any problems, I thought they had bad hearts too? They give names of breeders to contact by each breed but why is Bet Hargreaves listed by Cavaliers?

AT
3rd November 2008, 11:27 AM
Yes I have a copy. Lovely picture of Margaret.

Did you notice the section near the back where they graphed the health problems of every breed. I wondered why King Charles Spaniels (Charlies) didn't have any problems, I thought they had bad hearts too? They give names of breeders to contact by each breed but why is Bet Hargreaves listed by Cavaliers?


As far as I know its because the breed club has said their arn't any. I know some have complained about it for a while but its never been changed.

Karlin
3rd November 2008, 11:31 AM
Bet has been a longtime contributor to Dogs Today, and was involved with their breed health survey. In the past, she has been very central to the important heart initiatives for the breed and should be recognised for this.

Ironically, at the time the DT health survey and little black book they produced, she also was very pro scanning, having come from a very anti-scanning stance.

But more recently she disavowed her work on hearts (here) and has been against scanning again, and has an unfortunate long-running misunderstanding of Sarah Blott's work. She keeps posting that Sarah is searching for the genes for SM and collecting DNA for this purpose. This is WRONG and could lead to the failure of the overall project to find the genes. Sarah and the AHT are only collecting DNA to confirm that the correct gene(s) were found AFTER this has hopefully been completed by the Montreal genome team working with Clare Rusbridge. Blott is quite clear on this, and I have confirmed that the DNA is simply going to be stored until AFTER the genome research is complete. No one is even going to look at it to find the responsible genes at all! In addition the much-touted estimated breeding values (EBVs) currently rely ENTIRELY on people cardiologist (not vet!) testing their dogs and MRI scanning for SM and submitting the results!! So how can someone who now dismisses both heart and MRI testing be pro-EBVs? I can only think that Bet completely misunderstands what they are based upon and how central and crucial heart and MRI testing is to the success and accuracy of the EBVs. In addition they ultimately will need to rely on the Montreal genome scan to be extra accurate and this requires MRI scans and strong support for the Montreal work. Yet many breeders seem to think the EBVs will snap into existence without testing, without scanning, without the genome project, as if by magic. :sl*p: This is in very large part due to the WOEFUL lack of support by the clubs in getting this CLEAR information out and encouraging people to contribute to and support both projects. Even though both the ACKCSC and CKCSC have given grant support to the Montreal work neither has ANY significant information on their websites nor has bothered to let breeders know what information is needed to progress the research!

Thus the Montreal team also and separately needs cheek swabs/blood for the actual genome research to identify the genes. Sadly the clubs have posted 'information' to their websites which does not make this clear and threatens the success of the very work they claim to support -- I cannot understand why they are being so obtuse (unless they want Sarah's EBVs to be less accurate and allow for more ill dogs to slip into breeding programmes...). They need DNA from older clear dogs (dogs over 5) or dogs believed not to have CM (the malformation) though the scan will need to be read by the team to confirm this, as this is often misinterpreted.

Perhaps DT at this point needs a different breed contact on cavaliers as I am no longer sure that Bet advocates any kind of testing or verifiable health programme at all, going by what she posted here some ago when she dismissed the very important work on hearts to which she was a key contributor.

I find it very sad that someone who was once such a health advocate for the breed now seems to be taking a 'whatever' stance and simply defending breeders doing whatever they feel they want to do. I have a lot of time for Bet and her past contributions and dedication to cavaliers; she was at one time, a stout advocate for the breed. I hope she will one day become that again -- before it is too late for the breed.

*Pauline*
3rd November 2008, 11:58 AM
Perhaps DT at this point needs a different breed contact on cavaliers as I am no longer sure that Bet advocates any kind of testing or verifiable health programme at all, going by what she posted here some ago when she dismissed the very important work on hearts to which she was a key contributor.

There were other contacts, Joan Pagan who breeds (Sorata) and does rescue and I think Chris Knight (Carolus).

Jan Bell
3rd November 2008, 12:30 PM
I did e-mail Beverley last month and she replied to say that Bet was going to be removed from the list. Assume that the fact she hasn't is just an oversight.

Have just sent the link to this thread to her.

wotton12000
3rd November 2008, 12:35 PM
Hi All

Great post, Karlin.

Just to clarify the 'Dogs Today' breed adviser thing. I am down as the Cavalier Breed Health Adviser. The other names are the Breed Advisers - subtle difference.

Have a look at next months issue to see if there have been any further changes to the 'Furry Godmothers' section (Cavaliers).

Carol

*Pauline*
3rd November 2008, 01:22 PM
Excuse my trivial question but Carol (from above post), was that you in the same mag with that cool hair?

Karlin
3rd November 2008, 10:59 PM
Margaret and Carol both have cool hair! :lol:

If anyone anywhere in the world wants to order this issue you can do so here:

http://www.dogstodaymagazine.co.uk/dogsmag.php

http://www.dogstodaymagazine.co.uk/images/cover_current.jpg


November issue on sale 2 October 2008

Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The BBC's shocking documentary on hereditary health problems
Cavaliers in crisis. The heroines trying to save a breed plagued with health problems
How to get a pet passport and travel with your dog
Fetching ideas to make your balls go further!
Rugby player David Flatman and his dogs
Swedish Vallhund Fido Facts
Help from our panel of experts
Furry Godmother - breed and health advice

Karlin
4th November 2008, 01:42 AM
Bet asked me to post this reply which I am happy to do:


Karlin,

Iv'e been away most of to-day and have just read your Post and hope you will put my reply on your List.

I have contacted the Kennel Club on Friday , ,you will maybe see a couple of my Comments on 2 Dog World Forums.

I have said to the KC and have said for about 20 years ,why will they not Register Cavalier Puppies from Sires and Dams who have not been Heart Tested .

I have always felt this would be such a simple way to help the Cavalier Heart Problem .

I have even ,about a couple of months ago suggested to the KC ,that before a Cavalier is given his Title ,a Cardiologist should check his or her Heart .particularly a Cavalier Dog ,to make sure it's OK..

Now to SM ,as we say in Scotland I, Hae My Doots about it, that is why I am querying so much about it .

The only thing that's making sense for me is what Dr Marino has recently told me ,that SM could be linked to Trauma ,because of ARACHNOIDITIS,if you look it up on the Internet you'll see how the symptoms could be being similar to SM .

This could maybe be the reason why the other Breeds of Dogs have SM

Also what I cant follow through ,is if some of the Cavalier Pedigrees are flawed ,and I'll say again this was nobody's fault ,even back in the 1950's ,in a big Cavalier Kennel Cavalier Dogs and Bitches ran to-gether ,and it was just pot -luck if it was known who was mated to who ,how can the faulty Genes be found for SM if the Cavalier Pedigrees are not accurate ,especially for Dr Blott's Research .I am trying to find out more about this.

For the Heart Problem in the Breed it's a different kettel fish ,I know of Cavaliers in the 40's and 50's dying young with Heart Trouble ,but with SM ,now that it's in otherSmall Breeds ,what is going on ,is it some Dogs are low in Magnesium ,is it the junk food some Dogs are being fed ,,so you can see I just dont believe all Iam being told about SM.

As far as I am aware Iam still a Breed Advisor for DogsToday ,if I get a phone call from some-body looking for a Cavalier Puppy ,I always tell them to ask if the Puppies Parents have been checked for a Heart Problem

Bet