New Pup!~

Hi, my name is Patrick. I just put a deposit down for a new CKCS. So i thought i would sign up to a forum and join the mass's and live the life of a Cav. Owner. :-D

But i do have a question though.

How often do you hear about blue eyed CKCS? Because there was one, and i just totally had to have it! haha.

Well aside from that, i hope to be able to learn and grow in knowledge and be the best companion that i can be!~

Welcome! We do have one Irish member with a blue eyed tricolour, who occasionally is on the board. There's perhaps a recessive gene floating around somewhere, or perhaps a cross in the dog's background further back for a breed that occasionally shows blue eyes, but this is less likely. It is probably recessive. If you search previous threads you will likely find a previous discussion on blue eyes in the breed.

Sometimes blue eyes can be linked to deafness and some geneticists believe, sometimes with other recessive health problems (in dachshunds blue eyes are linked to deafness and blindness, for example); it is one reason why blue eyes in most dog breeds (except breeds where blue is dominant, such as huskies) are not deliberately bred for, and why blue-eyed dogs tend to be on a mandatory neuter contract. Did the breeder discuss this possible risk at the time? Most likely you will not have any worries, but potential health risks should really have been discussed and he should of course be neutered so there's no risk of the gene being passed along.

Just for background: this is a post from a vet on another dog board (for bulldogs):

Like in many breeds, blue eyes can be a visible recessive trait, but can also signify other recessives in the dogs system....health can be risked in factor.

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Some other comments from dog sites:

The same genetic influence that causes deafness often produces blue eyes, but all blue-eyed dogs are not deaf and all deaf dogs do not have blue eyes.

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On genetics and eye colour in dogs: http://netpet.batw.net/genetics/dog.i.color.html

I would say you are unlikely to have any issues. But the reason blue eyes are rare is a good reason -- it is that breeders do not breed for them because the gene is well known to be linked with various health problems when it is recessive, as it would be in cavaliers. Enjoy your dog's unusual eyes, but do keep an extra close lookout for any possible developing problems like deafness or sight problems over his lifetime, and be sure he is neutered.

Thank you for the info. Also, i think this is a stupid question, but hey... Its better to ask then to ponder right? haha... Well, i was wondering if it was normal for a Cavalier to not have a full black nose? it looks like it has just a spot. i only ask, because iv been reading as much as i can about this dog, and i havnt seen one with such a face.

also, if the dog didnt have any Tan markings on the cheeks, inside ears and on underside of tail, will my dog develop them later? becuase as it stands, my dog from in pictures i have seen, only has the tan above the eyes.

Not a stupid question at all. Puppies often have a lot of pink on their noses and it will usually fill in with black but not always. I have read that sometimes there are more patches of pink on noses of blue eyed dogs generally so that may be why there's a lot of pink. It is just a cosmetic issue which wouldn't be a big deal unless this was a show dog (but as the colouring is already not standard that wouldn't be the case anyway. ).

If the pup doesn't have tan on its cheeks etc by now it isn't going to develop them. Often coat colour and eye colour are linked and it sounds like the pup is showing some recessive traits -- the blue eyes linked to mismarking or as noted before, perhaps at some point there has been some other breed mixed in.

However: the important thing is really whether this breeder cardiologist, hip and eye tests and can show you the cardiologist certificates for both parents and ideally grandparents -- parents should be at least 2.5 years old and heart cleared by a cardiologist (not a vet) and grandparents should all be heart clear and at least aged 5. There is an extremely high rate of heart disease leading to early congestive heart failure in this breed so proper heart testing is absolutely crucial to increase the chances that a dog will get this later rather than earlier (nearly all cavaliers will eventually get MVD -- mitral valve disease -- but due to sloppy breeding and lack of heart testing over the years by many breeders, half of all cavaliers will have MVD by age 5. Responsible breeders who cardiologist test have much healthier, longer lived dogs). Also I would strongly recommend only using breeders who are also MRIing their breeding stock for syringomyelia.

Your breeder should have discussed the health issues in the breed and especially MVD and syringomyelia with you, as these are widespread. If she didn't, you may want to reconsider the pup. I am just a bit concerned as it doesn't sound like the breeder discussed the eye colour issue or has explained that you are getting a very mismarked dog? Now as noted that is only a cosmetic issue but this should be discussed with the buyer by the breeder and a dog so heavily mismarked I would generally expect to be discounted.

Please note that 'mismarked' is not a judgement on the dog or its personality, it is simply a statement of fact but it does mean a dog that would generally be offered a a lower price because it will be well off breed standard and in addition does possibly have increased health risks due to its eyes. The breeder should not really be breeding the parents further in that combination as the crossing signals there are some recessives coming forward and that does generally mean an increased risk of health problems overall.

There's lots of info in the library section on finding a breeder (just so you can see the checklist of what a breeder should be telling you) and on health issues in the breed etc.

I'd at the least go back and talk to this breeder about these questions before making a final decision.

My Soon to be pup.

Here is a picture of the puppy that was sent to me... My mother decided not to get the blue eyed pup because it might have some problems later down the road. I had another question though... Is it normal for Tri-Colors to look like this? And is this considered "show quality"? If this helps, the Mother was a Tri-Color with lots of black and the Father was the White and Tan.



Hopefully things are all good!~ because that would suck if it didnt... but like everything else in the world... ONLY ONE WAY TO FIND OUT....

he is a very cute tri-color puppy dog.
i am no expert on show quality dogs. i think its really hard to see when the pup is setting down. have you considering getting insurance for you puppy yet?

To be show quality ,he should have tan markings under both cheeks,ears,tail,eyebrows.Check the standard for tricolours.They are visible from moment of birth,might change size a bit,colour intensity,but what you see now,that's it.
BTW welcome,and he is a very nice boy show or not!

Here is a picture of a tricolor pup-- almost 3 weeks old. You can barely see the color under the ears and on the face, but they are there.

He is also a mismarked tricolour. But to be honest, markings are generally only a cosmetic issue -- whether he was bred for health and breed type is far more important.

If the breeder is offering him as 'show quality' then beware. Generally North American breeders would never sell show quality dogs to people who aren't either already showing themselves, or involved in the national clubs and working with a mentor who can vouch for their bona fides. They definitely never sell show quality puppies to buyers they do not know, over the internet. This is in part because show dogs are very valuable (and you'd expect to be paying several thousand for a show prospect; also, you cannot tell if a puppy is a potential show prospect until it is a lot older), and in part because they are selling intact dogs (eg unneutered) that must be kept intact for showing and hence could be bred. No responsible breeder would do this except with utmost caution because breeding carries such heavy responsibility, especially as this breed is currently under a lot of health pressure.

It is usually a tip off to a very questionable breeder trying to dupe people into paying more if they are claiming some puppies are 'show quality'.

In general, as noted in the guides in the Library section, you want a club-registered breeder (not just AKC but breed club involved -- so ACKCSC or CKCSC) whose dogs are either AKC or CKCSC registered. Other registries are a sure sign of a backyard breeder or puppy mill dog. You want a breeder who cardiologist tests their breeding dogs, and where parents are 2.5 years old minimum and cardiologist cleared, with grandparents at least 5 and also heart clear up to 5. You want to see eye, and hip tests. You want to discuss syringomyelia and ideally IMHO, have MRI tested parents.

This post gives a complete overview:

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?p=284655#post284655

Just be very, very careful -- there are far more trash breeders than responsible breeders out there, especially on the internet. Getting a good quality puppy from a responsible, health focused breeder will generally save money and heartache in the long run.

Karlin said:

Just be very, very careful -- there are far more trash breeders than responsible breeders out there, especially on the internet. Getting a good quality puppy from a responsible, health focused breeder will generally save money and heartache in the long run.

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Can i just second this. I completely understand how exciting getting a new puppy is, and am soooo aware that breeders will tell you what you want to hear and put on a 'show' in order to sell a pup.

I've had Bailey for 6 months, from who on face value appeared to be a decent and caring breeder. However, i was extremely caught up in the moment and silly :bang: - i took the woman's word for the heart and eye testing and didn't see certificates. I have had a sick puppy for the past 6 months. I have vet bills coming out of my ears, and she is sat next to me coughing as i type. To date she has had cocccidiosis, lung worm and treated for ongoing ailments since day 1. I had her insured but it hasn;t kicked in to pay for anything as her symptoms came in the first 14 days of the policy. The breeder doesn't want to know, and so i will be taking her to small claims court in the new year.

I don't want to put you of entirely, but please, ask for these health checks for your own sake and the puppys. It is heartbreaking worrying constantly whether your pup will make it through this or that incident, i just wish i had done, and maybe we wouldn;t be in this situation. I love Bailey to pieces, but she doesn;t deserve this. Please, just check that the breeder is breeding for health, it will make your life with your puppy far better as you will be able to have far more fun with him than if you were back and forth to the vets... also you're wallet will very much appreciate it.

Let us know how you get on, and good luck!

cosmic81 said:

he is a very cute tri-color puppy dog.
i am no expert on show quality dogs. i think its really hard to see when the pup is setting down. have you considering getting insurance for you puppy yet?

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No, the thought of insurance hasnt came up yet. Let alone i have no idea where to start for that. I looked at the AKC website but thats about it. i was going to ask my vet for more info. but how much does insurance normally run for for pets?

Indy said:

To be show quality ,he should have tan markings under both cheeks,ears,tail,eyebrows.Check the standard for tricolours.They are visible from moment of birth,might change size a bit,colour intensity,but what you see now,that's it.
BTW welcome,and he is a very nice boy show or not!

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I mind if he is a Show or not i dont have that kind of time on my hands to train and dedicate my life to the dog like that or whatever it takes to be a show person. I just want to enjoy my dog as friend and family member, thats all. I was just wondering about the whole show thing. But well said, it shouldnt matter. haha.

Karlin said:

He is also a mismarked tricolour. But to be honest, markings are generally only a cosmetic issue -- whether he was bred for health and breed type is far more important.

If the breeder is offering him as 'show quality' then beware...

Just be very, very careful -- there are far more trash breeders than responsible breeders out there, especially on the internet. Getting a good quality puppy from a responsible, health focused breeder will generally save money and heartache in the long run.

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Yea, I was just looking at other tri colors and just noticed he didnt have as much brown as most did, so i was just wondering if there was something wrong. AS for the 'show quality' the price wasnt raised, all the puppies were running for the same price. But i kind of wish i found this site a little bit sooner. Because i had put the money down on the puppy like a couple hours before i found this site. I did a little research on the breed as for the SM and the MD part, and who or what the dog is, but as for buying from breeders... i had no idea it was this complex. haha. oh well... After i found this site, iv been reading everything and all aspects that this site has to offer... we live and learn...

Ejay said:

Can i just second this. I completely understand how exciting getting a new puppy is, and am soooo aware that breeders will tell you what you want to hear and put on a 'show' in order to sell a pup.

I've had Bailey for 6 months, from who on face value appeared to be a decent and caring breeder. However, i was extremely caught up in the moment and silly :bang: - i took the woman's word for the heart and eye testing and didn't see certificates. I have had a sick puppy for the past 6 months. I have vet bills coming out of my ears, and she is sat next to me coughing as i type. To date she has had cocccidiosis, lung worm and treated for ongoing ailments since day 1. I had her insured but it hasn;t kicked in to pay for anything as her symptoms came in the first 14 days of the policy. The breeder doesn't want to know, and so i will be taking her to small claims court in the new year.

I don't want to put you of entirely, but please, ask for these health checks for your own sake and the puppies. It is heartbreaking worrying constantly whether your pup will make it through this or that incident, i just wish i had done, and maybe we wouldn;t be in this situation. I love Bailey to pieces, but she doesn;t deserve this. Please, just check that the breeder is breeding for health, it will make your life with your puppy far better as you will be able to have far more fun with him than if you were back and forth to the vets... also you're wallet will very much appreciate it.

Let us know how you get on, and good luck!

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Thank you for your concern and for giving me a heads up. I was told that i will be getting a copy of the Health checks, so i will be looking forward to seeing both eyes and heart check papers. I will be going to get the puppy this Saturday so i shall keep all of you posted.

But i do have one more question before i end this REALLY long post...

I am going to pick up the puppy at the breeders house. What things should i look for that would be 'red flags' that the puppy came from a Mill, or poor living conditions? or That the Breeder is just yanking my leash? (haha, sorry couldnt help it ) I she offered me to stay the night at her house because i have to drive 7hrs to get the puppy. i wont take her up on it, but that should mean something... right? lol

Hi! I just wanted to tell you that I think the puppy is adorable, although he's not "show quality," IMO. My little Blenheim isn't, either, and I don't care one whit.

As for insurance, I found ASPCA's primary plan to be the least expensive (as compared to AKC or VPI). We got it for Jasper, and it costs $250 a year. It covers everything except routine vaccinations, but we weren't planning to go the traditional vaccination route anyway, at our breeder's recommendation. I haven't submitted a claim yet, so I don't know how good they are about reimbursement. The website is http://www.aspcapetinsurance.com/. I strongly recommend pet insurance because of the health problems in the breed. A diagnosis of MVD or SM could get very costly. You need to have the insurance in place before any of these diagnoses are made, or they won't be covered. With ASPCA, there's a one-month waiting period before your dog is covered.

As for any "red flags" to look for in the breeder, I don't have a whole lot of advice except for two things: 1) Look at the condition of her other dogs, which she should be proud to introduce you to. If she won't let you look at her dogs, I would try to find the strength to walk away from the puppy. 2) See how knowledgeable she is about health problems and what she's doing to address them. I'd let her know that you're aware of the health problems of the breed and see how much she knows. I doubt that she's MRI tested any of her dogs for SM because here in the States, it just doesn't seem to be commonly done yet. You'd be shocked to know that many so-called "breeders" have never heard of SM and have only limited knowledge of MVD. She should at least be keeping up the current research on the topic (Rusbridge's research on SM, for example) and should be able to discuss it with you. Like others have said, she should have certificates from cardiologists to back up any claims of being "heart checked" and should have eye and patella certificates. Ideally, you should be able to see the dog's pedigree (and certificates) going back several generations.

I would tell you to rely on your gut instinct, but I really liked my first Cav's breeder and was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt when I shouldn't have. There are perfectly nice, sincere, well-intentioned people out there breeding Cavaliers who simply shouldn't be.

Hope we all haven't scared you off from the breed. They're wonderful little dogs...you just have to know what you're getting into and have a strong commitment to take care of the dog to the best of your ability, even if serious health problems come up. One last thing...understand the temperament of the Cavalier and appreciate their strong need to be with their family. Okay, I'll shut up now.

Good luck!

Lori

HeyItsPate said:

No, the thought of insurance hasnt came up yet. Let alone i have no idea where to start for that. I looked at the AKC website but thats about it. i was going to ask my vet for more info. but how much does insurance normally run for for pets?



I mind if he is a Show or not i dont have that kind of time on my hands to train and dedicate my life to the dog like that or whatever it takes to be a show person. I just want to enjoy my dog as friend and family member, thats all. I was just wondering about the whole show thing. But well said, it shouldnt matter. haha.

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IF you do get insurance, make sure they don't have any exclusionary clauses for hereditary conditions like MVD and SM. Many do.

Ahh, I sold a show pup on a co-own-- it took 6 months to train him and finish him. He now is 2 years old and lives the good life in Washington. It really wasn't a huge deal for the owners-- he now gets to be in junior handling with their 11 year old daughter.

I hope all goes well for you this weekend. Puppies are wonderful.

I will echo the other about the health issues. They should be your top concern. The tests and clearances for the heart sound like a LOT, but really they are the minimum you should be requiring.

As far as pet insurance in the US, I am super happy with Embrace (embracepetinsurance.com). They pay for hereditary conditions and continuing care (they will continue to cover something in the years after it is diagnosed) I had that for Pixie, my first cavalier who I lost to a freak, tragic accident. She spent a day and a half on life support in intensive care on a respirator before she died and they paid their 90% of the nearly $1,500.00 vet bill without batting an eye, quicky and with lots of compassion. I'd hear that many insurance companies won't pay for the respirator (which was over $400.00 fo the vet bill), but they didn't exclude anything. They are nice people, who give personal service, too, which is a plus. When I bought a policy for Bandit (the cav. we got a couple months after losing Pixie) the CEO of the company contacted me herself to tell me she was so happy for us and that everyone in the office was talking about it. They wanted me to email photos of Bandit, and now Lizzie.

Embrace has different levels of coverage, so you can pick what you want and don't want (meds or not, dental or not, etc.).

Update On puppy

Ok, so i get this call from my Breeder and she says that and i quote...

"Because im a reputable breeder i have to tell you this, but your puppy has a hernia"

I was like I kind of found it humorous that she would tell me this, but at the same time that i was kind of glad she did. Made me have a more faith in her.

So i decided to go with another breeder.

The puppy is 12weeks old and not 8 like i wanted. but oh well. I guess they can hold in their pee and poop longer. haha. Still going to pick up the puppy on Saturday.

But i had one question... normally how long does it take fully housebreak your puppy?

My new puppy also has a hernia, but I'm not worried about it. The breeder was very upfront about it. There are different types of hernias, but hers is the type that doesn't require surgery. I don't think they're all that uncommon.

I'd much rather have a 12-week-old puppy than an 8-week-old, personally. Mine will be 12 weeks when I pick her up next Friday. The father along they are in the housetraining process, the better, I think. Plus, they've had a little more time with their mother and are just a bit more mature. They're every bit as cute, though.

As for how long it takes to housetrain, I guess that depends on how you do it. Many people recommend Ian Dunbar's books. I think two are Before and After You Get Your Puppy and The Good Little Dog book. I have the second one. I'm not a good source to ask about housetraining because I obviously did something wrong with Jasper. I trust him now for the most part (he's 13 months old), but believe me, he's had his share of accidents and will still have an occasional accident if it's raining outside. I'm going to try to do better with our new pup. I'd recommend crate training to make things easier. Don't give the puppy the run of the house--that's the biggest no-no. He/she needs to be confined in a small space (crate or x-pen) under close supervision. I hope someone here has some good tips because I need them, too!

Good luck! Are you still going with a tricolor?

Lori

i am so glad that you are asking a lot of question before getting your dog!

I have Petplan. Its about $30 per month for lower coverage.

LorifromGA said:

My new puppy also has a hernia, but I'm not worried about it. The breeder was very upfront about it. There are different types of hernias, but hers is the type that doesn't require surgery. I don't think they're all that uncommon.

I'd much rather have a 12-week-old puppy than an 8-week-old, personally. Mine will be 12 weeks when I pick her up next Friday. The father along they are in the housetraining process, the better, I think. Plus, they've had a little more time with their mother and are just a bit more mature. They're every bit as cute, though.

As for how long it takes to housetrain, I guess that depends on how you do it... Don't give the puppy the run of the house--that's the biggest no-no. He/she needs to be confined in a small space (crate or x-pen) under close supervision. I hope someone here has some good tips because I need them, too!

Good luck! Are you still going with a tricolor?

Lori

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Iv been told that a 12 week would be a better choice as far as learning how to raise a dog. A lil less of a headach or so im told... haha... And going on this whole " Don't give the puppy the run of the house..." i dont quite understand why that would be a issue? is it because i wouldnt be able to keep the puppy in my sights at all time? and thats just something that all owners need to do with puppies? Or is it because that just gives the puppy more area to poop or pee in places that i cant find? lol

Yes, i am still going with a Tri color. But i think if this go well, then we will get a the Black and Tan color next.

Here are the pictures my breeder sent to me... I never noticed it before, but my girl friend noticed that he has brown on one side of his face and not on the other. I just laughed when i saw it. I think its neat.

cosmic81 said:

i am so glad that you are asking a lot of question before getting your dog!.

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Thank you. Iv raised dogs before, but that was when i was younger and they were just out of control, every single one of them. So i wanna do things right. Plus i want a rottweiler for my own personal dog, so i figured learning how to train a smaller breed for my parents would give me a good gauge on the do's and dont's. Plus, iv always admired people who have very well behaved dogs. So i guess its my turn to be admired.

Well, i tomorrow is the BIG DAY!~ I will report back tomorrow when i get the puppy. My parents decided to Name him Jaeryong. Or J.R. haha. Jaeryong i guess means something on the lines of something cute. Or so my parents say. Im just rolling with it. haha.

As a fairly new owner of a 5 month old cavalier ( but we've raised 3 goldens and a lab over the years), your breeder is saying to restrict pup to small area so that you can watch for signs of peeing and/or pooing so that you can get pup outside before the deed. Our's is very good about pooing( she will bark, go to door and bark again). However, she doesn't always let us know about the other. We had several accidents before taking her out after every meal, every nap or every 10 minutes or so of play with us or our golden.

Doing this and restricting her to a crate when we can't watch her has been a big help. Our golden was house trained by 6 months but I've read that cavaliers can take up to a year. Also at beginning pup got us up during the night for a few weeks and was able to hold for a longer period when not getting canned dog food.

As to hernia, our vet said our pup has one and it can be corrected when she is spayed. Another vet who saw our pup when other vet was on vacation said it really didn't look like it was a hernia so we'll have to do some inquiries.

Glad you are checking out breeders. I spent a good 6 months researching prospective breeders.

Our pup was sold as non show quality but must be spayed.

Best of luck ; these dogs are amazing love pals.:lotsaluv:

Heather R