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View Full Version : Dog breeders in denial: Telegraph vet blogger Pete Wedderburn



Karlin
27th March 2009, 05:03 PM
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/peter_wedderburn/blog/2009/03/27/dog_breeders_in_denial

Karlin
28th March 2009, 12:50 PM
Someone let me know that somebody somewhere else is worried about whether I secretly wrote this piece forthe Telegraph or work there.

No, ladies, I didn't write it -- Pete is a real person and one of the best known vets in Ireland (also appearing regularly on TV and involved with the national vets association). I also have never worked for the Telegraph though of the UK papers, I have worked for the Guardian (over a decade) and the Times. Of course though most journalists working on the national dailies would know many other journalists. I hope that helps! :) If you want a detailed biography (if informal) I keep a professional one here (http://www.techno-culture.com/?page_id=2). I wouldn't want people to be left wondering about who I work for! :lol:

hwowen
28th March 2009, 01:11 PM
Excuse my ignorance (yet again :badgrin: ) bu do these conditions tend to only affect the pedigree intensively-bred dogs and not my scruffy uncouth little fella?:D

Karlin
28th March 2009, 01:21 PM
Pete does a pretty good job of explaining the issues. Pedigree dogs are prone to particular problems within each breed because the dogs are selected from what now seem to be small and increasingly confined gene pools, increasing the risk that, without extremely careful breeding, health issues will arise. Cavaliers unfortunately have the double whammy of two serious issues -- SM and MVD, along with a range of others. Crossbreeds have the same general health risks and risks resulting from common environmental factors like obesity. They also can inherit the genes for whatever problems their mix of breeds are prone to. A first generation cross can also be healthier. But as a lot of crossbreeds come from poorly bred purebred dogs, I doubt it makes much difference for many 'designer crosses' where the parent dogs won't come from health focused breeders. But ask any vet -- crosses do generally seem to be healthier and less at risk of specific genetic problems (as opposed to general health issues, eg the risk that any dog might get cancer).

On the other hand, increasing genetic diversity within purebred dogs can help enormously. That may mean focusing less on the narrow pool of stud dogs (which has really contributed to the bottleneck of genes) or in some cases bringing in other breeds to create some broader diversity. The breed was created from a few breeds to start with and some breeds have benefited from reintroducing other genes. But that issue remains controversial!

And as Pete notes, a purebred dog from a reputable health focused breeder has a consistency of personality and temperament. crosses are very much an unknown quantity especially if they come from a rescue or pound (same holds for purebreds from a rescue or pound). Temperament is a quality that is bred for too. So there are pros and cons of choosing a cross or a purebred. MOST dogs whatever the background will have a fine temperament however. :)

Margaret C
28th March 2009, 01:57 PM
From Karlin's biography .....

"I am also a board member of RTE (http://rte.ie/), the Irish national broadcasting company (radio and television) — as a 2009 government appointee to the non-executive board of the RTE Authority (http://www.rte.ie/about/authority.html)"

This is really a most prestigious appointment. Congratulations and well done.

Margaret C

frecklesmom
28th March 2009, 03:08 PM
How many ways can the serious subject of the AGM be thwarted.


Karlin doesn't have a garden-oh my :eek:. The continuous use of trolling (
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang), is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum) or chat room (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chat_room), with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-PCMAG_def-0) or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-IUKB_def-1)is childish and vindictive and self serving.
Will there ever be a list of those members that voted negatively toward inception of SM guidelines? Are all those members strong on their conviction or are there other factors involved such as currying favor and following the leader?

sins
28th March 2009, 04:49 PM
I see you've been reading the "Not the Karlin Lillington cavalier website" where flaming is not tolerated...(It's positively encouraged)!!
Whatever differences of opinion arise between any website owner and any member is a private and personal matter and nothing to do with the rest of the membership.
It's regrettable that people who previously posted alongside us and whom we liked and respected now feel free to insult and make derogatory comments about those who continue to post here.
Membership of messageboards constantly change,none of us can remain as members of any forum forever,those of us who seek support for dealing with our sick dogs will eventually take what we need and move on or find that family or professional circumstances not longer permit time to log on.
During our time we'll meet people we get on with and identify with, or face people we no longer want to engage with,we just deal with it in a mature and dignified fashion and get on with our business.
Sins(neither hardcore nor mad)

-leah-
28th March 2009, 05:06 PM
I see you've been reading the "Not the Karlin Lillington cavalier website" where flaming is not tolerated...(It's positively encouraged)!!
Whatever differences of opinion arise between any website owner and any member is a private and personal matter and nothing to do with the rest of the membership.
It's regrettable that people who previously posted alongside us and whom we liked and respected now feel free to insult and make derogatory comments about those who continue to post here.
Membership of messageboards constantly change,none of us can remain as members of any forum forever,those of us who seek support for dealing with our sick dogs will eventually take what we need and move on or find that family or professional circumstances not longer permit time to log on.
During our time we'll meet people we get on with and identify with, or face people we no longer want to engage with,we just deal with it in a mature and dignified fashion and get on with our business.
Sins(neither hardcore nor mad)

I have just realised that there is no 'thanks' button on this board, so I'll just have to say it, wonderful post Sins. Although I don't post very often this thread caught my eye as I'm a fan of Pete's. When I read on and payed a visit to the other message board in question I was shocked. I'm 18 and I have more maturity in my little finger then some of those women, they ought to be ashamed of themselves resorting to play-ground name-calling, they need to take a step back and realise that we are all working towards the same goal.

Jan Bell
28th March 2009, 05:27 PM
Oh Sins how very true.

How can anybody who claims to be an intelligent adult lump everybody together just because they post on a particular site ?

People are just people, and there is always going to be a mixture of different opinions. Perhaps they just feel more in control to look at it this way, and that makes them feel that they have the right to belittle people at will.

I also find the idea that none of us are capable of making up our own minds (ie: we are all brainwashed) very strange. If I am PC literate enough to post here I am certainly able to look at other sites and opinions. As I have said before, the internet is a wonderful tool and all sorts of research is freely available for anybody who chooses to look.

Reminds me of playing cowboys and indians as a child when all the "goodies" wore white hats and all the "baddies" black ones. If only life was that simple.

Cathy Moon
28th March 2009, 06:05 PM
Just one more observation - there's quite a difference between saying:
"I health test"

and saying

"I health test: my cavaliers are evaluated every year by a cardiologist, my cavaliers are MRI'd at the recommended ages, and I follow the SM and MVD guidelines."

Clairelou
28th March 2009, 06:07 PM
To the 'ladies' icon_nwunsurehmmm of the 'other board' who revel in name calling, bitching, playground behaviour, bullying, childish antics.............

Have you really got nothing better to do with your time??? I do pity you, I really do!!!

Wasn't the website you belong to supposed to be about CAVALIER HEALTH???

Personally I think this behaviour is pathetic!!!!

The other members of the Cavalier Chat board who joined to discuss important issues like health must cringe when they log onto their forum to find the 'ladies' icon_nwunsurehmmm turning their forum into an issue of public humiliation.


Will there ever be a list of those members that voted negatively toward inception of SM guidelines? Are all those members strong on their conviction or are there other factors involved such as currying favor and following the leader?

I'd love to know these details, my Tals is a walking advertisement for Cavaliers she is stunning. I'm often asked for the details of her breeder (now retired) Now if I knew the details of these breeders / kennels I could pass this knowledge on to the potential Cavalier owners save them contacting these breeders for a pup.

*Pauline*
28th March 2009, 07:21 PM
I have just realised that there is no 'thanks' button on this board

There is, just click on [more] which is below all the smilies and you get two thanks smilies. :D
:thnx::thnku:

Cathy Moon
28th March 2009, 07:24 PM
I see you've been reading the "Not the Karlin Lillington cavalier website" where flaming is not tolerated...(It's positively encouraged)!!
Whatever differences of opinion arise between any website owner and any member is a private and personal matter and nothing to do with the rest of the membership.
It's regrettable that people who previously posted alongside us and whom we liked and respected now feel free to insult and make derogatory comments about those who continue to post here.
Membership of messageboards constantly change,none of us can remain as members of any forum forever,those of us who seek support for dealing with our sick dogs will eventually take what we need and move on or find that family or professional circumstances not longer permit time to log on.
During our time we'll meet people we get on with and identify with, or face people we no longer want to engage with,we just deal with it in a mature and dignified fashion and get on with our business.
Sins(neither hardcore nor mad)
:thnku:

-leah-
28th March 2009, 08:17 PM
There is, just click on [more] which is below all the smilies and you get two thanks smilies. :D
:thnx::thnku:

Thanks Pauline, that's not really what I meant but :thnx: anyway.. :thmbsup:

Margaret C
28th March 2009, 09:18 PM
Just one more observation - there's quite a difference between saying:
"I health test"

and saying

"I health test: my cavaliers are evaluated every year by a cardiologist, my cavaliers are MRI'd at the recommended ages, and I follow the SM and MVD guidelines."

Unscrupulous breeders are full of these sayings that are actually half truths and designed to deceive.

One is "I have never bred a puppy with SM" ( the dogs are sold before it develops )

Buyers also need to be aware that "I MRI test" does not mean that breeding stock has been scanned.

There is a difference between MRI scanning in accordance with the SM recommendations, and paying out for a diagnostic MRI in 2001 because you had a puppy, by your champion stud dog, that developed SM and needed surgery before it was a year old.

Or for taking a symptomatic cavalier to the Royal Veterinary College for a free MRI under their pain trial.

When you buy a cavalier, make sure you see the certificates, that they relate to the right dog, and you know how to interpret them.

Margaret C

*Pauline*
28th March 2009, 11:32 PM
When you buy a cavalier, make sure you see the certificates, that they relate to the right dog, and you know how to interpret them.

This is very important. Can someone suggest the best source for scans, perhaps online, to educate ourselves? I had to search through 193 scan images of my Dylan before I found what was a very obvious case of SM.

Cathy Moon
29th March 2009, 01:38 PM
I've been wondering about UK Cavalier club voting procedure. Is it secret ballot voting or is it based on counting a show of hands?

While secret ballot might be more time-consuming and expensive, it would certainly be fairer, especially for those who might be concerned with regards to fairness in the show ring.

Cathy Moon
29th March 2009, 01:44 PM
This is very important. Can someone suggest the best source for scans, perhaps online, to educate ourselves? I had to search through 193 scan images of my Dylan before I found what was a very obvious case of SM.

Rather than viewing the actual scans, it would be better to see the official registration papers/pedigrees with birth dates, neurology reports, heart and eye certs, etc.

Perhaps someone could scan in a copy of a neurology report to illustrate for us?

*Pauline*
29th March 2009, 01:53 PM
Perhaps someone could scan in a copy of a neurology report to illustrate for us?

I can but the neurologist gave the measurements for the syrinx wrong in the report, so ignore that. She told me in person, both syrinx were just under 5cm long and when the report came, I think the decimal point was in the wrong place. I called her and she said yes, she wrote that down wrong. I got two reports, one simple one, that both I and the vet had a copy of then I asked for a more detailed one. She said most pet owners don't know as much about SM as me, I have this forum to thank for that.

Cathy Moon
29th March 2009, 02:09 PM
Pauline, do you know if the simple version of the report is similar to what the breeders get with their mini scans?

kkennedy
29th March 2009, 03:15 PM
Hi Pauline

I wrote a couple of articles (understanding MRI and anatomy of the canine brain (http://www.cavaliercanada.com/documents/BasicCanineNeuroAnatomy.doc), and the second on Chiari Syndrome and SM. (http://www.cavaliercanada.com/documents/Understanding_Canine_Chiari_Malformation_and_Syrin gomyelia[1].doc)) that are on the Canadian Cavalier Club website to help owners and breeders understand their MR scans. Hopefully they will help you.

http://cavaliercanada.com/content/view/100/105/

Karen

Margaret C
29th March 2009, 03:52 PM
Hi Pauline

I wrote a couple of articles (understanding MRI and anatomy of the canine brain (http://www.cavaliercanada.com/documents/BasicCanineNeuroAnatomy.doc), and the second on Chiari Syndrome and SM. (http://www.cavaliercanada.com/documents/Understanding_Canine_Chiari_Malformation_and_Syrin gomyelia[1].doc)) that are on the Canadian Cavalier Club website to help owners and breeders understand their MR scans. Hopefully they will help you.

http://cavaliercanada.com/content/view/100/105/

Karen

Wonderful articles, thank you.

there is also information on how to read MRI scans on Karlin's site http://sm.cavaliertalk.com/

Now I could scan in a Cambridge MRI certificate for you to see what is shown at the moment ( they have evolved over time, as more information has been gathered ) but I don't know how to get it to display on this site.
*Pauline* can you help?

Perhaps someone has got a Chestergate certificate they will share, as they are slightly different.

The different UK neurologists are co-operating to produce an official MRI scheme that will actually only give a pass or fail.

Margaret C

harleyfarley
29th March 2009, 04:59 PM
If they get a pass will they need rescanning at some later date, i understand that symptoms can begin at any time, if they are clear at 2 or 3 does that mean they will never develop the illness. di

Cathy Moon
29th March 2009, 05:13 PM
Now I could scan in a Cambridge MRI certificate for you to see what is shown at the moment ( they have evolved over time, as more information has been gathered ) but I don't know how to get it to display on this site.
*Pauline* can you help? You would need a scanner (many printers are scanners) or you could try photographing it. I have successfully photographed documents and posted them into Flickr or Photobucket.

If you don't want personal information displayed on the site, you could photocopy it (many printers are photocopiers) and black out personal information with a marker before scanning or photographing it. Or I think there is a 'paint' editor that would allow you to cover parts of the image before you upload it to Flickr or Photobucket. I've used it long ago - will have to look for it.

Cathy Moon
29th March 2009, 05:23 PM
If they get a pass will they need rescanning at some later date, i understand that symptoms can begin at any time, if they are clear at 2 or 3 does that mean they will never develop the illness.

On the cavalier club site:


click on cavalier health (from left navigation)
click on syringomyelia (from left navigation)
click on MRI screening and breeding recommendations - January 2007 (fifth link on list)

http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/start.html

Clairelou
29th March 2009, 09:58 PM
I've calmed down since my last post... it was just a bit much to find myself and other Cavalier Talkers being spoke about in such a horrible manner by people who have never met me and know nothing about me (merely for posting on this site). This, coupled with the CKCS statement RE: the fiasco at the CKCS AGM stabbed deep in the heart of someone who cares passionately about our lovely cavalier. My intent is not to fan the flames between the two sites but to ask those who criticise people they know nothing of not to do so.

I try to be as diplomatic as possible in life and will guide those I meet out in the parks and express an interest in Cavaliers (after meeting my lovely Tally) to those who health test rather than (as I said in my last post) away from those who voted against the SM guidelines inception into the ethics (not that I know these details anyway, but if they do come to light, I won't) which I think is a better option for everyone involved.

I think this is a better summary of my feelings and I hope one day we will have no health issues to discuss because our precious, most beautiful Cavaliers will be fit as a fiddle :).

Brian M
29th March 2009, 10:26 PM
Hi

I fully agree with your comments I hear they did not like my post on that great Beeders wellcome all Fully Health Focussed Website and a lot have being saying not nice things about me Oh Well I think I will tell our Steve to redirect the shuttle and to nuke all the little old fxxxx ,see I did not use Fowl and abususive language bur god help the chickens .:)

sins
29th March 2009, 11:21 PM
I hope one day we will have no health issues to discuss because our precious, most beautiful Cavaliers will be fit as a fiddle :smile:.

That's the common goal that we all aspire to:)
Sins

chloe92us
30th March 2009, 01:04 AM
I've read all the posts on all the sites, and I do believe that there are always two sides to every story, and those who voted "no" for amending the COE truly felt confused about what was going on...okay, I can possibly buy that.

The question I would like answered by those of you who voted "no" is; WHY would Lesley Jupp "lie" in her statement about the AGM as has been claimed on Cav Chat? She very clearly is passionate about Cavalier HEALTH, and MC completely respects her as did breeders until now. I'm trying to be open minded, but it makes no sense that you're saying she is misleading the public with her statement. There would be absolutely NO reason for her to do that.

So, since everyone "there" reads the posts "here", can you please answer that question? It will help. You can answer it on the other board. ;)

Thanks in advance for clearing up "the facts".

sins
30th March 2009, 02:29 PM
I heard a new phrase today.It's called a "breeder knocker". I'm sure it must be some kind of derogatory term.

I wonder is this what a breeder knocker is?

I think it also exposes what a lot of us already know. That the show world is full of bad breeders who only care about rosettes and once the dogs stop winning or are no longer making them money from breeding then they rehome them to 'pet homes'.:-?
or perhaps this?

It's at times like this that I wish I was a member of the Cavalier Club. I am completely disgusted at the behaviour of many of the breeders I have encountered (the backer of the breeder on the show being one - as I'm sure you already know!).Some of these breeders seem to think they are better than the rest of us, know more and do as they please - after all they show and we are only pet owners....Thing is, some of us have probably done more research into our beloved breed and have closer relationships than they will ever believe.:sl*p: or maybe this?

some breeders don't actually care about their dog's offspring, just the money it will bring in .I for one am totally appalled at the attitude of Beverly Costello and also (but not surprised) by that of Veronica Hull. Stuff the club and their moronic voters Margaret. You are in the right. Oh and if anyone would like to sue me for my comments on here then please feel free to PM me for the address of my solicitor! :P
I won't name the individual here,but the person who wrote the above comments has just posted the most slanderous post about a business venture of a cavaliertalk member, particularly a non political person who has never commented on any matter related to cavalier breeding.
To Veronica and Norma,
I note that you have issued an open invitation to cavaliertalk members to join cavalierchat.Personally I would love to join and engage directly in conversation with you and the many others who have something to say.However I must respectfully decline for the moment or at least until the forum sorts out it's moderation issues.
Unfortunately,many new members find the atmosphere offputting and frankly not worth the grief.
Sorry about the megaphone diplomacy!
Sins

(Admin note: I will name the individual and let her stand (so to speak) by her words: this is Donna who was MaxxsMummy on this board. I barred her many months ago -- last October. Karlin]

Sunflowerstar
30th March 2009, 02:59 PM
I have sat quitely reading lots of threads and have kept my thoughts to myself for a long time. My thoughts are on this.
Sins your above post is so true about many of the top show people they only care about winning and bury thier heads in the sand about health issues. Yes they do rehome many a dog that is no longer of use to them in the ring. A fair few are pts sleep too I bet when a home cannot be found or are these dogs rehomed as a rescue dog from thier club rescue. Who knows but they are a tight lipped lot who stick together.
It is a shame for all those in the breed that are having thier dogs tested that these other loud mouths are making it harder for them to improve the breed.
Shame on you who from over there who are reading this what goes around comes around its about time they pulled out all stops to mend thier ways.

sins
30th March 2009, 03:18 PM
I'm afraid Sunflowerstar, I did not write those comments:).They were written by a former member of cavaliertalk who is currently critical of "breederknockers".I'm just confused that this person would not consider the term applicable to herself under the circumstances.
Maybe this thread should be titled "Breederknockers in denial".
Sins

Sunflowerstar
30th March 2009, 04:39 PM
Yes they sure are in denial and cannot be reasoned with. Its seems to me that they think we cannot *THINK* for ourselves and have all been brainwashed. What a laughing stock they are I can make my own mind up and will never be blinkered by anyone about anything never have and never will.

*Pauline*
30th March 2009, 05:09 PM
It may be just me but Sunflower I think you have misunderstood Sins post.

A member on Cavalier Chat is criticizing "breeder bashers" when she herself was a "breeder basher" on Cavalier Talk. The quotes in Sins post are from that very member.

Kate H
30th March 2009, 07:51 PM
I've been trying to keep out of this discussion, but as a fairly longstanding member of the the CKCS Club feel I need to put the record straight about someone's comment on the chairman: 'why Lesley Jupp suddenly "turned her back" on the breeders? It makes no sense. She was the HERO when she stepped down after the MC debacle. Now, she's a backstabber.'

I had a long talk with Lesley at the Club Championship show in February and she confirmed what I had suspected: she did NOT resign when Margaret was nominated for the committee because she refused to work with Margaret, but because she suspected (probably with good reason) that Margaret being back on the committee would trigger another SGM to get her off, and Lesley felt that a line had to be drawn. Although Margaret graciously withdrew, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened at the AGM if she hadn't - I suspect Lesley would have taken the opportunity to make her views known in explaining why she was resigning - as she did over the health issue. I think Lesley is caught between a rock and a hard place: she cares deeply about health issues, but like any chairman of an organisation she is bound by the constitution and has to do what the members want, which may not always be what she would prefer herself. And she definitely is not backstabbing the breeders - she's making a full-frontal attack!! and I personally congratulate her for doing it. And what she says is true - if the CKCS Club doesn't get its house in order, the BVA/KC will step in and make MRI scanning compulsory for getting puppies registered, and THAT will really lose the breeders some money - however beautiful and well-bred, no show person is going to buy a puppy they can't show because they can't KC register it.

Us pet owners can do our bit - spread the word that anyone buying a puppy must ask to see the parents' MRI scans, and refuse to buy if they aren't produced. We may not hit the big breeders, but we can get a message across to the puppy farmers and the backyard breeders.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Kate H
30th March 2009, 07:58 PM
If no-one else does theirs, I'll try and scan Oliver's Chestergate certificate and put it on. But it won't get done for a couple of days as I'm very busy at the moment.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

*Pauline*
30th March 2009, 08:01 PM
Thanks for that post Kate, well said :thmbsup: Waiting for my son to scan my report too.

chloe92us
30th March 2009, 08:21 PM
I want to clarify that my comment was meant to be rhetorical. I was pointing out the fact that these same breeders who are NOW SAYING she turned her back on them, were the ones who were applauding her for resigning. THAT makes no sense to me; she seems like a genuine Cavalier-health advocate (judging by the fact that MC has the utmost respect for her) so WHY would she make such a "false claim" with her statement? Why would she "lie"? THAT was the purpose of my post; I want the breeders who are saying she turned her back on them, to tell us WHY would she lie about what happened there? I was trying to point out that we do not buy their story...

Obviously, it has been taken wrong as I've been personally invited to join the other forum, which I actually will do as I want to know the answer to that question. It just doesn't add up.

chloe92us
30th March 2009, 08:30 PM
I edited my original post. Does it come off as I inteded it to now?

*Pauline*
30th March 2009, 08:40 PM
I edited my original post. Does it come off as I inteded it to now?

Yes, thanks Trisha. :thmbsup:

Margaret C
30th March 2009, 10:57 PM
If no-one else does theirs, I'll try and scan Oliver's Chestergate certificate and put it on. But it won't get done for a couple of days as I'm very busy at the moment.

Kate, Oliver and Aled


Thank you Kate for your comments on Lesley's courageous statement, and for the offer to scan Oliver's MRI certificate.

In the meantime I have been given kind permission to put up a link to MRI certificates from the low cost breeders schemes at Cambridge & Chestergate:-

http://www.carolus.co.uk/#/mriscans/4519458568

Margaret C

Cathy Moon
1st April 2009, 12:24 AM
I won't name the individual here,but the person who wrote the above comments has just posted the most slanderous post about a business venture of a cavaliertalk member, particularly a non political person who has never commented on any matter related to cavalier breeding.

I think there are several members who noticed this.icon_nwunsure

*Pauline*
1st April 2009, 02:17 PM
I think there are several members who noticed this.icon_nwunsure

That thread was removed thank goodness.

*Pauline*
1st April 2009, 02:30 PM
Here is Dylan's report. This was a diagnostic report so slightly different from the one Margaret posted. Let me know which size is best please. I just looked up the word Cervical as I was confused, it means neck.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3594/3405573554_8bf3a8eae7_b.jpg

*Pauline*
1st April 2009, 02:35 PM
I'll type the second report as it's short.

"The length of the syrinx in Dylan's neck is 4.8cm and runs from C2-6, the diameter at the maximum part is 4mm. The syrinx in the lumbar spine is 4.7cm long and has a maximum diameter of 3.9mm."

Another phone call established there was herniation but no hydrocephalus.

*Pauline*
1st April 2009, 03:30 PM
Pauline, do you know if the simple version of the report is similar to what the breeders get with their mini scans?

Sorry, only seeing this now. No a diagnostic report is quite different and when I say "simple" I mean it wasn't very detailed so I asked for a second report with more info.

*Pauline*
1st April 2009, 03:35 PM
Hi Pauline

I wrote a couple of articles (understanding MRI and anatomy of the canine brain (http://www.cavaliercanada.com/documents/BasicCanineNeuroAnatomy.doc), and the second on Chiari Syndrome and SM. (http://www.cavaliercanada.com/documents/Understanding_Canine_Chiari_Malformation_and_Syrin gomyelia[1].doc)) that are on the Canadian Cavalier Club website to help owners and breeders understand their MR scans. Hopefully they will help you.

http://cavaliercanada.com/content/view/100/105/

Karen

Thanks Karen. It was the lumbar syrinx I couldn't find as it wasn't obvious to me what that scan would look like and with 193 images, it could take a long time for me to work it out. At first it took me a while to know which was the head end and which was the bottom.

Karlin
1st April 2009, 05:49 PM
Hi all -- sorry to have missed out on much of this discussion -- I was off in Madrid for several days, having a fantastic time. :) Just catching up on threads and work.

For those looking for what heart certs look like, there's info here (http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?p=284655#post284655) and links (also to how to understand an MRI).

Don't be too bothered by the Cavalier Chat website talk -- it has made the job of those that actually do care and work for breed health a breeze as nothing is more shocking than seeing so many of those people in their true light (and so funny that they think they come across well! :eek: They need their media advisor to have a read of select threads and posts! Really folks -- I suggest sitting down and having some neutral professional have a look at how you make yourselves appear to the rest of the world... :rolleyes:). Right now, I am delighted to refer people to those discussions :thmbsup:.

Thanks too to members here for being discreet in discussing some of the silliness, but some people should have to stand by their words. Just so that some of these people can be matched to some of the quite different attitudes and posts they have made in the past (and these are people who have posted some of the strongest anti-breeder sentiment here in the past): Donna, who is blocked from this site and has been for some time, was MaxxsMummy here and is Brightness over on the CavChat board. Meanwhile, Alison Leighfield, who is also blocked here, is CavieLove on Cavalier Chat. I do highly recommend searching past posts on this site and then comparing what is being said by the same people now... icon_nwunsureIt makes for some interesting reading.

This past post from Donna/MaxxsMummy/Brightness on this site had me laughing (thanks, Sins, for finding it):


Stuff the club and their moronic voters Margaret. You are in the right. Oh and if anyone would like to sue me for my comments on here then please feel free to PM me for the address of my solicitor! :PSeems the 'moronic voters' and the club are now transformed to pleasant bedfellows... ;) Also given that Donna sent me a mildly entertaining email threatening to sue me recently, this had special irony. But I will repeat what I always repeat: I do know what is libellous and what is not. Knowing this is part of my professional job.

As for folks here -- don't be too bothered by what gets said elsewhere. The namecalling and schoolyard comments so perfectly highlight what is wrong with these folks, and why the expensive media training is not working :rolleyes:, that these days I simply send people to read such threads and rest my case without even having to argue in any depth about why these people simply must be questioned about the attitudes they hold and must be held to accountability for their current and past actions, especially what some know and do vs what they say they know and do. Through their own discussion board, they disgrace themselves so easily and pinpoint all that is wrong with so much of the show world and dog breeding generally that the whole board could be given to the Bateson enquiry as evidence! (now there's an idea...?)

In sum, certain ladies and the odd gentleman of the breed clubs are very, very upset at having some of the sad truths about their activities and attitudes exposed. It was always simply a matter of time. That they lash out was always to be expected. Far from being bothered, I quite enjoy being a target! :) No better evidence that what is being said now in so many forums, strikes home and has people panicked (and they are panicked). And advocacy is one reason why I have the professional jobs I have in the first place... just as I have enjoyed and found it usefully provocative being a target on other issues, from broadband use in Ireland to data retention to the ethics of Google etc etc. It is part of the role of a columnist/panellist/boardmember to raise uncomfortable issues and challenge received perceptions and when you do that effectively, boy does it stir a hornet's nest. It also helps important issues to be aired and debated, regardless of whether people agree with you -- which is good. To get letters to the editor, blogger comments, callers to radio programmes, debates with politicians, board posts... all these things to me mean the issues are important and need to be raised and I don't care at all whether people get annoyed or lash out at me personally; it is simply part of the job and territory. Sometimes the strength of the response and the direction it comes from is an indication of how right it was to raise the issue. :) Given the subject at hand and the importance of the issues being raised and the public scrutiny now falling on the breed clubs and individual breeders, particularly many of the prominent ones who write dog magazine columns and are on committees and breed heavily for the show world and thus influence whether health is actually more than a lip service issue -- I am delighted to be under attack by these same people. What a fantastic resume for being on the right side of the debate! :lol:

And heaven forbid I should have them as friends, instead! :rotfl:

Karlin
1st April 2009, 06:28 PM
Oh yeah, and forgot to say one of the best 'serious' accusations of all time is definitely that I have no garden. :rotfl: As some have noted elsewhere, what does this possibly matter to a small indoor dog that gets tons of daily exercise and interaction with the outside world? Anyway as many of you know, my dogs gets a minimum of four walks a day plus weekly outings to the beach, the Dublin mountains, and the Phoenix Park (12 times the size of Central Park in New York with ponds, creeks, fields, forests and herds of deer)...

Meanwhile, some of the saddest rescue cases I take in are from people with gardens, as it is too easy to shove the dog out in it all day long to become lazy, undersocialised and bored. And let's compare that to many of the show breeders in these threads (ladies, you know who you are) who keep their dogs in *kennels*, isolated dog rooms, or crated much of every day... :rolleyes:...

Or let's just set these apparent sins in a scales: one one side, Exhibit A: knowingly using a dog diagnosed with SM for breeding, or one that is many months or even years to young for compliance with the MVD protocol you give lip service to... vs.... Exhibit B: not having a GARDEN! :eek:

:rolleyes: Man, are these people for real? At least they can be accidentally entertaining -- I have gotten quite a few good laughs from people already, with that particular story :lol:

Rj Mac
1st April 2009, 06:57 PM
We joined the other forum the other day, as I felt the need to try and stick up for the people here on Cav Talk, this is a fantastic resource, and source of frienship, help, and just a good place to air some thoughts, also filled with a wide aray of great members,

Also as I've said on countless occassions, that Karlin herself has been a great help to my family, and if it wasn't for her help,support and guidance we wouldn't have our Megs, and for that we are eternally grateful,

So after starting to read through some of the threads more thoroughly, and viewing the venom that has been spouted over there,towards decent people who only want what's good for Cavaliers, it is a forum that I want no part of, I.....and for that matter Lisa too, will not lower ourselves to posting there!! And to that end, our 1st post will be our last!!

It saddens me that these "adults",are behaving like spoiled children, and are resorting to mud slinging, instead of proper discussion,

R.

chloe92us
1st April 2009, 07:02 PM
I'm surprised to hear about Alison. How do you search for past posts if they are no longer an active member?

I posted my first over there, although I still have not received an answer to my main question! Ladies???

chloe92us
1st April 2009, 07:03 PM
I would delete your MRI post, white out or cross out your full name, and post again. ;)

pippa
1st April 2009, 07:25 PM
I can't seem to find this other site and would be interested in reading some of the comments..does anyone have a link?


Got it thanks...

sins
1st April 2009, 08:53 PM
I signed up earlier today.I posted my introduction and and it's been added to the moderation queue:thmbsup: I might add an avatar later.
Sins

Karlin
1st April 2009, 09:03 PM
Past members' posts remain on the board; just search under their username. That is how Sins was able to easily find the quotes from MaxxsMummy. None of these people are 'banned' -- which would mean they cannot access the board at all and all their old posts cannot be read. They are still members but cannot post or send PMs etc.

The only members I actually ban are spammers.

meljoy
1st April 2009, 09:51 PM
Well said Rj! Ive read some of the posts there and its a real shame that there seems to be such a negative attitude to this forum.

I have found everyone here fantastic and very supportive when I needed it last month:thnku:

Lets hope that in the future the name calling and silliness about gardens!! stops and people concentrate their energy on saving the health of this wonderful breed.

Mel

pippa
1st April 2009, 10:02 PM
I signed up earlier today.I posted my introduction and and it's been added to the moderation queue:thmbsup: I might add an avatar later.
Sins



I signed up too but I haven't been cleared to post yet.

Brian M
1st April 2009, 10:14 PM
Hi

Thanks for the kind comments ref Dawns mum we go over in there morning she has now been taken into Hospital .:(

After my broadside at the old xxxxx last weekend I have kept my head below the parapet so I don't know if I have been censored or banned ,have not visited the SITE as I know if I read the posts which I have heard there are a few that are not being that kind to poor me that I would no doubt reply again ,and at the present I have real life things to face unlike that other lot who are totally off another planet ,well I suppose my comments helped them show themselves for what they really are to the rest of the caring animal world community .Thanks to members for showing support to me you are the true Cavalier caring people.
:)
Best Wishes

Brian

chloe92us
1st April 2009, 11:23 PM
Brian, You've officially been banned. :eek:

We still love you though!

rosiesmum
1st April 2009, 11:26 PM
Hi

After my broadside at the old xxxxx last weekend I have kept my head below the parapet so I don't know if I have been censored or banned


I'm afraid you've been banned - it says so under your username in your opening post :eek:

Karlin
1st April 2009, 11:37 PM
Ah, banned by the site which vowed it would never ban people and would not tolerate attacks on others etc etc (though now some members seem to not just be attacking others off their board but also are regularly shouting at each other, even in colour and boldface!) ... but I see they have since removed that original claim. :rolleyes: so maybe that's all OK now then. ;)

Margaret C
2nd April 2009, 01:03 PM
I wonder whether I should apply to join? I think I may try.

There are a few questions I would like to ask.

Margaret C

Aileen
2nd April 2009, 01:14 PM
Why not?
Aileen and the gang (Barney--Jazzie---Jake)

HollyDolly
2nd April 2009, 10:30 PM
Well I did join a few days ago, user name Nanette, but honestly having joined I do not think that forum has anything to offer to me. They will always be in total denial over the SM problem (Not all) so unless things change I for one will not be responding.:D

Brian M
2nd April 2009, 10:32 PM
Hi

So my comment had the desired effect ,they told lies they do ban people and I think i only made about four posts ,I wonder if it was something I said.:confused:

See You
brian:)

frecklesmom
2nd April 2009, 10:33 PM
Oh, Brian:jump:

hwowen
2nd April 2009, 11:25 PM
It would seem that joining this forum is the most hardcore thing I've done this year :badgrin: . Fancy upsetting those poor people with your unreasonable behaviour ... I expected better from you Brian of all people!!!:jump::jump::jump::jump:
Haven't gone there yet, but when I'm feeling bored and need to vent my spleen for whatever reason, I now know where to go cl*p. Fortunately I DO have a garden. I might just post in Welsh to doubly annoy them.
Seriously though, Stupid people don't KNOW they're stupid - that's what makes them stupid. Where money and reputation are involved, ostrich syndrome is usually the only 'acceptable' option for them. Deep down, most of them probably know they're wrong, but they've gone too far to turn back.

Cathy Moon
3rd April 2009, 12:18 AM
I have to admit it's a teensy bit amusing to watch them fawn over us CavalierTalk folks. :winkct:

Holly
3rd April 2009, 02:18 PM
Just an innocent question... I thought it was considered poor Internet Etiquette to copy and paste quotes from another forum or link to another forum? I feel like I have seen a lot of that going on lately and I thought that was considered a "no-no"? Just curious.

Karlin
3rd April 2009, 08:55 PM
Generally, requoting requires the permission of the original poster but in practice is hard to control. Interestingly though, some who do repost are the same crowd who insisted others be removed from a forum for even giving a tiny portion of a post much less an entire post, or have complained noisily about not having been asked permission for their own material to be reposted. So, it is very interesting to see how 'rules' matter only in their own campaigns... :rolleyes:.

If a general informational post, such as something posted as a notice or article, then generally it's OK to quote and post a link to the source. Copyright notices vary but in practice, there's little that can be done even if copyright is violated.

Linking to a forum... context matters as far as netiquette goes. I prefer to follow what has been long established (since the 80s on old Usenet forums and elsewhere) and ask people generally not to link or discuss other forums. However there are extenuating circumstances in certain cases. As many of you will know (not least because you found this happened with your own posts!), for a long time I have edited posts and removed links for such reasons. However at the moment, for some reasons specific to the ongoing situation with breed health, I have made the choice to allow some discussion. :thmbsup:

Karlin
3rd April 2009, 09:03 PM
What is netiquette? Read more here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquette).


Netiquette, a portmanteau of "net etiquette", is a set of social conventions that facilitate interaction over networks, ranging from Usenet and mailing lists to blogs and forums. These rules were described in IETF RFC 1855.[1] However, like many Internet phenomena, the concept and its application remain in a state of flux, and vary from community to community. The points most strongly emphasized about USENET netiquette often include using simple electronic signatures, and avoiding multiposting, cross-posting, off-topic posting, hijacking a discussion thread, and other techniques used to minimize the effort required to read a post or a thread.

HollyDolly
3rd April 2009, 09:18 PM
There are a few article in this weeks Dog World relating to the attitude of Cavalier Breeders. One has stuck in my mind all day. This was on the letter page:-
:(:(:(

http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceout.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceout.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceout.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceout.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceout.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceout.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceout.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceout.gif
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3631/3409490337_bb51c4dea4.jpg?v=0

frecklesmom
3rd April 2009, 09:39 PM
:cry*ing: This is the harsh cold reality that some CKCS breeders ignore in their pompous statements re: never scanning. These little dogs mean so much to their owners, hearts are being broken and the irresponsible breeders could care less as long as they can have their social tea and show off their ribbons and trophies. If there was only a way to unite the reputable breeders in the fight against MVD and SM so that they could be shown as the "knights in shining armor" they are and let everyone know who really cares about the CKCS.

Cathy Moon
4th April 2009, 12:07 AM
Thank you for posting this article, HollyDolly.

Equally as bad as the pompous CKCS breeders who say they won't scan are the irresponsible CKCS breeders who state they do scan when in reality it is haphazard scanning that has nothing to do with following SM protocol, but just to make themselves appear to be responsible to unwary puppy buyers. This manipulative behavior needs to be outed by educated puppy buyers.

Interesting how the article mentions taking breeders to small claims court - a logical progression really, given the untold suffering and grief caused by SM and irresponsible breeding.

When a previously irresponsible breeder has a change of heart, comes clean publicly, strives to breed healthy cavaliers, and submits needed scans, etc. to research, I think they are deserving of forgiveness and hopefully will earn the acceptance of others.

sins
4th April 2009, 11:27 AM
That's a heartbreaking story Nanette.
I hope the person from the Kennel Club who wote in their e mail to you
the ‘quality’ of Cavaliers on the database would improve, but these would represent a very reduced number of Cavaliers
has read this letter.
I believe self regulation is the preferred way to go,but seeing as a determined group of cavalier breeders remain unconvinced that there are tangible benefits to MRI scanning the cavalier club may run out of time with their efforts to pull everyone together.
This week's Dogworld headline "Cavalier members confused" is no more flattering than last weeks "Cavalier members thwart health plans".All headlines across the various canine publications have been predominantly negative.
If the kennel Club can impose mandatory testing for a metabolic disorder in the Irish Setter Breeds,technically there is nothing to stop them from imposing mandatory testing for the CKCS.
The KC would not lose the breeders who show their cavaliers.They would lose a significant proportion of the "Non show fraternity", call them the BYB or whatever, with the associated loss of registration fees.I wonder if this is the reason they don't want to reduce the numbers of cavaliers on the database?
I've seen suggestions about scanning cavaliers before giving them a CC,but surely many cavaliers attain their CCs before they're even old enough to get a scan to be given a grade A?So I can't see that being of any use.
Also there's no point in making show breeders jump through hoops requiring scans before giving titles when the overwhelming majority of breeding stock registered with the KC never see the inside of a showring.
I think in the coming months we'll see the screws being turned on the KC to impose mandatory testing for MVD and SM for KC registered cavaliers.
The cavalier Club has no influence over the breeders who are not members,and can only try to work with their own membership,but the KC has the power to influence every breeder who registers with them and with continuing negative headlines and a new PDE documentary on the way, we may yet have another summer of discontent.
Sins

HollyDolly
4th April 2009, 11:10 PM
I've seen suggestions about scanning cavaliers before giving them a CC,but surely many cavaliers attain their CCs before they're even old enough to get a scan to be given a grade A?So I can't see that being of any use.
Sins

I know a few Cavaliers who have gained a CC (Challenge Certficate) before the age of 12 months. Perhaps the answer would be NO Cavaliers eligible to enter a dog show unless they comply with ALL health testing. Horror of horrors I can hear them shout, that would mean NO dog allowed to be shown until they were at least 30 months. Non compliance, so be it.