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View Full Version : new 10 month old cavalier marking all over our house



samsmom
26th May 2009, 09:51 PM
Me and my husband just got a new 10 month old cavalier puppy yesterday evening. The woman I spoke to, the breeder, said he was housebroken and doggy door trained and always had full run of the house.

Well he was doing great until my husband came home and I took him out and he peed and pooped and than came in and 5 minutes later he ran to my son's potty chair and lifted his leg to the potty chair.

that was the only accident last night and he slept crated last night with no problems. This morning I took him in the bathroom while I took a shower before work and I had him out 20 minutes prior (again he peed and pooped) and he immediately lifted his leg on our toilet but I was able to distract him and take him out to potty and praise before he marked on the toilet.

Well I left for work, told my husband he needs to go out every 25 minutes and my husband was watching him and taking him out and he said he'd take him out he'd potty like 2 or 3 times than come inside and go to mark on a door frame or something and he'd say no and the puppy would immediately go off and try to mark somewhere else, no matter how many times he's taken out to go potty. He marked 3 spots today already inside.

Now he's not neutered and probably won't be because he does have a pretty bad heart murmur already and we don't want to risk putting him under. I thoought that I would have to do some housebreaking until he got used to the house and where he goes to go outside but he's marking EVERYTHING (or attempting to).

I keep him leashed to me at all times to keep an eye on him and I am looking into getting one of those belly bands but what can I do to make him trustworthy in the house (if anything) has his time to learn pottytraining already come and gone? I don't want to have to use bellybands as a permanent solution but will if I have to to keep him he is very much worth it.

I am not used to small breed puppies and I am not used to boy dogs and marking. I was told that small dogs take a long time to understand housebreaking but it seems it's not a housebreaking issue it's a boy/marking issue.

kmatt
27th May 2009, 09:27 AM
PM Brotymo, she has had to go through this with Bandit and will have some helpful advice.

Justine
27th May 2009, 10:28 AM
Its only been one nite,hes doesnt know were he is,very confussed.It will take a week to poss. two weeks to settle and have a routine.i think you need to give him time.he will settle.Its not his fault.

Karlin
27th May 2009, 12:00 PM
The breeder should really have told you that a dog going into a new home, especially a male, and very especially if he is not neutered, is going to mark. This is absolutely to be expected . He should never be given the run of the house at first and the breeder is misguided there, too -- first off he may have been housetrained to his old house but he isn't housetrained to your house (a dog won't necessarily make any connection that it is houses in general where he shouldn't wee :) ). Also he is still just a puppy and few dogs are fully reliable at only 10 months; accidents would still be expected anyway :thmbsup:. I'd definitely approach him as a new puppy, unhousetrained, and manage him in this way. I'd recommend ordering Shirlee Kalstone's excellent book on housetraining (which includes marking, and managing the older dog). There are also many links to articles on housetraining in the Library section and also at all the sites I have pinned at the top of this section.

Neutering him generally resolves this in about 70% of cases -- otherwise he will mark like this anytime he visits a strange house unless you really work to train him. Who has said he has a murmur and has this been assessed by a cardiologist? Some pups have 'puppy murmurs' (more info in the Health Library section) which are harmless and go away by age 1. It would be extremely unusual for a 10 month old dog to have a serious heart murmur as heart disease is progressive, unless this is a rare, serious congenital murmur. Has a vet said he shouldn't be put under? If you are only going on what the breeder said, I'd schedule him in with a cardiologist for a full heart assessment. A serious murmur just sounds very very unlikely.

As Justine says he is marking because the house is strange, because he is still young, because the smells are new and he feels he can make the house more familiar by marking. I'd limit him to one room, manage him at all times, never punish; keep a hawkeye out and the moment you see his leg begin to rise distract him and praise him when he stops before spritzing. He doesn't need t go out every 25 minutes and doing so may actually reverse his housetraining! You don't want him to expect that he is supposed to pee every 25 minutes. At this age he should have no problem holding himself for several hours. It is better to just keep an eye on him and take him out every 2-4 hours unless he is in and out anyway. Males will generally mark every time they go out anywhere thoug.

It will likely settle down after a week or two but with males will always be a neutering/training issue.

PS replied to your intro thread too. :) From the sounds of this breeder, I doubt you are dealing with a murmur.

Justine
27th May 2009, 01:47 PM
Just reading what Karlin sas,i wish i could write that well.Good luck with pup,it will get better,try to laugh about it.They do settle,the one thing i find with cavs,is they sooooo want to please,remember that.

samsmom
27th May 2009, 10:31 PM
Thank you for the responses!

No the "breeder" didn't seem to concerned with him once her daughter handed him over to me. I asked for an email address so I could keep her updated and she's like "well since he has a murmur I don't offer a health guarantee of any kind on him". I just wanted to keep her updated on how he was doing is all. So she said to respond to the ad that I had found him by, than I asked if I could call with any questions and she again said he does not come with a health guarantee and I said just incase I have feeding issues and she was like "oh yeah ofcourse call me". She took my email address said she would email his vet and heart records and I never received anything and now the phone number is no longer valid.

I have never had to housetrain and I only have a larger dog (a golden who was housetrained when we got him) he never marked either (but he was also neutered). So a small dog is new for me. I did expect to do some housebreaking but got frustrated when you take him out and he'll run past you through the door and lift him leg on the fishtank immediately after coming in. We have yet to have a poop issue either and he holds it in his crate, even over night.

as for his heart the breeder said the vet noticed that he had a murmur as a young puppy and than again 2 months ago she took him in and it was still there but she said it hadn't gotten worse or better. He has an appointment friday now with our vet and we are going to discuss putting him under and get his heart looked at my husband wants him neutered ASAP!

I wasn't sure how often to take him out to potty I figured the more we took him out and praised him for going outside the less he would have the need to go inside. Like I said I never potty trained before (I'm a housebreaking virgin:rotfl:). Although usually he just wants to hang out on the couch all day and can easily go a couple hours without moving let alone going potty. I do leash him to me and watch him but I usually let my older dog out every hour and he needs help getting in and out so I'll bring Sam out with me every hour anyways.

Karlin
27th May 2009, 11:09 PM
Sounds like Sam has found a great home with you. Shame about the breeder though. :( Very frustrating. If she said she'd had him in twice though she probably did and probably did get his vaccinations. You could ask your vet to titre to see hi immune levels as even though they aren't always precise that likely would let you know if he has had the vax and then you won't end up doing them all again.


Although usually he just wants to hang out on the couch all day and can easily go a couple hours without moving let alone going potty.
Well that is pretty much a cavalier all right! :lol: If you are going out anyway, sure, take him out. But keep him on the lead coming back in and close to you so he doesn't get the chance to mark. He really will likely stop this very quickly.

Here's a post on marking and training:

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=20623

Here's info on puppy murmurs. Keep in mind vets are not trained to any great degree in hearing murmurs so can easily be mistaken:


FLOW MURMURS - WHAT THEY MEAN

Simon Swift
May 2004


A heart murmur is caused by vibrations in the heart. or blood vessels. These vibrations are usually created by turbulence, and occasionally by vibrations of structures in the heart e.g, valves, Just imagine a. river flowing slowly and smoothly, that is laminar flow, Now picture a small fast-flowing stream with lots of currents and eddies, this is turbulent flow.

Turbulence is due to one of three things:

High velocity blood flow
Low blood viscosity - as seen in anaemia
Flow from a narrow region into a large area

Each heart beat ejects a certain volume of blood, the stroke volume, Puppies have larger stroke volumes for their size than adult dogs. This means that for each heart beat, a relatively larger volume of blood is ejected out a smaller vessel when compared to an adult dog. When excited such as at a veterinary surgery, this can increase further and so the outflow velocity from the ventricles in the aorta or pulmonary artery can increase above a certain threshold and become turbulent creating a murmur.

Typically these innocent flow murmurs tend to be fairly quiet (up to grade 3), soft and blowing in character and occur at the beginning to middle of the heart heat, Also they are usually loudest over the aorta or pulmonary artery and can vary with body position. Unfortunately, it is impossible to differentiate between some mild congenital heart diseases such as sub-aortic stenosis (a narrowing under the valves at the base of the aorta) and a flow murmur. Most importantly, innocent flow murmurs disappear by 6 months of age.

If you have a puppy with a murmur that could be a flow murmur, you have two options:

Have the puppy re-examined in 1 month. An innocent flow murmur should get quieter as the puppy grows. If the murmur is the same or louder, further investigations such as Doppler ultrasound examination would be indicated.

Have a Doppler ultrasound examination performed if you need to know NOW. This will allow the cardiologist to assess the valves and the speed and direction of blood flow through the heart can be measured. This will differentiate between mild heart disease and flow murmurs.
Hence, if I pick up a quiet murmur in a young puppy at a show, I would recommend that the owner waits to see how it develops before making any drastic decisions. If it is an innocent flow murmur, it should gradually get quieter and disappear. Anything more significant will persist and require further investigation.

brotymo
27th May 2009, 11:23 PM
Samsmom, I sent you a pm. Karlin covered everything very thoroughly. I hadn't seen her responses before I typed mine in the pm. I did share some experience I had (since resolved), but it was actually another person on this board who posted about a major problem with it. You might do a search and find it.

samsmom
28th May 2009, 03:43 AM
ok so this could just be an insecurity thing than? Could he possibly just be insecure about coming to a new home? I am definetely keeping up with watching him like a hawk, I have him leashed to me or in his crate when I can't give him good supervision. I have been doing reading though and we are definetely going to talk to the vet about neutering him ASAP. I am hoping that with close supervision and he'll be trustworthy once the newness of our house is over for him.

He is such a good little boy I just started to teach him some manners today we were working on sit and come but it's hard since he doesn't comprehend his name yet. He is more than eager to learn too he was bouncing all over me trying to get his training treats.

I know it's not a HUGE problem but I guess I am just looking for reassurance about this as well. I asked what food he ate and the breeder said regular puppy chow (no brand just regular puppy chow) and so I picked up chicken soup for the puppy lover's soul (dry) food. Ofcourse he won't eat it, has barely eaten since we got him. I noticed since he started on the CSFTPLS his poop is very runny, as to be expected, so I got some canned pumpkin and offered him a little bit and he ate all that but none of his dry food. I am determined to get him to eat this food but is it ok that he really has not eatten since monday (I picked him up monday evening). He gets the Bil Jac treats for small dogs and I have to break it into 4 or 5 pieces when training or he won't eat it, he just spits it out and licks it. He did eat some vanilla ice cream that my daughter gave him yesterday (just a few spoonfuls). He wouldn't even eat people food my husband offered him a bit of cheeseburger and he snubbed his nose at it!

I offer him his food 4 times a day, in his crate, and leave it for 15 minutes and if he doesn't eat I pick it up and wait for next feeding.

kmatt
28th May 2009, 08:57 AM
Just keep it up. Eventually He will get the point that his food is given and if he doesn't eat then it goes away. I agree with this but ironically don't follow. I leave Anna plenty of food for her to each whenever she wants, but I have set amount of treats for the day. She goes and eats a few bites every so often and plays some more.

Justine
28th May 2009, 09:08 AM
Pat your self on the back.He going to have a better life.I just tried to buy a 8 month old on the net,the woman refussed.I would of handed him over to Karlin.

chloe92us
29th May 2009, 04:26 AM
It sounds like you're doing a good job. Keep us updated about the food; I would really keep the people food out of the picture or he might just learn to hold out for the good stuff...like vanilla ice cream...I know I would! I have found that some dogs just don't like particular brands....none of mine like EVO for some reason???? But if he's still not touching the food by tomorrow, I would go buy a very small bag of something else and see if it is the food.

As for the marking in the house, he WILL stop doing it in your house, but you better buy a belly band for when you take him to anyone else's house! :eek:

Kizzys Mum
29th May 2009, 01:44 PM
With regards to the eating - when we first got Kizzy, she was quite reluctant to eat and would only chew on one side of her mouth. Her teeth and gums were in quite a state; so I assume it hurt her to eat. (This is much improved now and she loves eating!) I know yours is only a pup; so hopefully his teeth won't have had a chance to get that bad; but it may be worth looking into if he doesn't like to chew.