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View Full Version : For those who have SM-effected dogs



chloe92us
30th June 2009, 07:55 PM
There are some that say the majority of SM dogs are from puppy mills, BYB, and rescues. I would like to know where did you purchase your dog(s) that have SM? You can answer multiple times but you have to do it all at one time, if that makes sense (and only do this if you have more than one dog effected). Thanks.

*Pauline*
30th June 2009, 08:18 PM
I clicked on reputable breeder. BUT what I thought was reputable then is not what I feel now. I went through the Kennel Club website to find a breeder. I thought anyone showing at Crufts would have top quality dogs.

chloe92us
30th June 2009, 08:28 PM
Well, our views can definitely change. Yes, you should have put reputable breeder...even if you wouldn't consider them reputable now.

To clarify; By "reputable" breeder, let's say we mean "has a reputation" of showing dogs, breeding for breed standard, and does some health testing. These are breeders that are involved in their local breed clubs and are very intertwined in Cavalier happenings.

BYB would be someone who breeds dogs at their home, maybe a couple litters a year at most, does no (or little) health testing, is not involved in the show ring, and usually says something like "I just love Cavaliers so much I wanted to breed my dog so my friends and family could have one...". Some come with pedigree and/ or registration papers, some not.

Pet stores and brokers would be if you bought from a pet store OR on the internet from someone you never met, OR if you met someone in a parking lot or the airport or something and they had several Cavalier pups- this is most likely a broker. A broker can also be someone who has many different breeds of puppies in one location, whether at their home or listed on an internet site. This also applies to any dog you KNOW came from a puppy mill.

Rescue- this can be a challenge. Only put rescue if you DO NOT KNOW the background of the dog. For example, my Winston is a rescue. However I know he is from a BYB. So, I would put BYB. The foster dog I have now is from Petland, so I would put petstore/ broker. Does that make sense?

Karlin
30th June 2009, 09:21 PM
This silly, groundless claim that show dogs are less affected by SM is just the latest pathetic attempt at a 'get out of jail free' card by a few breeders (and it is the usual few suspects spouting this hogwash). I note that not one of these ladies has supported this statement with any evidence whatsoever (why, what a surprise!) except to say they 'know' this is the case... and this statement inevitably comes from people who show through other posts their enduring ignorance about the condition even at the most basic level -- I mean they say stuff that simply is wrong and shows they have read almost nothing that has been written.

I can say definitively that it is absolutely positively * NOT TRUE THAT MOST SM CASES ARE PUPPY MILL OR RESCUE DOGS *. I have discussed this with several of the researchers who also do plenty of scans (most of the scans are done by only a handful of neurologists) and they say there's absolutely NO difference in the level of affectedness. If anything several researchers have said they would expect to see potentially a higher level of affectedness in show dogs simply because these often have a much narrower genetic diversity and concentrate the same sires over and over again -- and it is known that most of the top sires of the past couple of decades have produced affected puppies.

chloe92us
30th June 2009, 09:29 PM
Yes, I posted a response hours ago (how my post was misinterpreted, I'm not sure...:confused:) but it has not hit the list yet...

Karlin
30th June 2009, 09:48 PM
Good point by the way about the source of rescue dogs.

The whole argument is just so insulting to the many good breeders who actually do MRI and have unsurprisingly, at times found they have produced an affected dog, either symptomatic or found on scans.

I think just about any breeder who has scanned a number of dogs would confirm that they are dealing with some affected dogs. If we are however only going on symptomatic dogs, well, I have homed dozens and dozens of CKCS rescue dogs now personally and brief all new homes of SM symptoms and give out a general health info pack, and of all those dogs, know of three with symptoms or scanned and verified with SM (I have one of them). So those ladies might argue, 'how can I know then how many are affected? It could be much higher for these rescues because I don't know the status of all those dogs and owners probably don't come back and tell me."

Well: BINGO! This is just the issue for those breeders who keep claiming they don't know of any SM in their lines, have never had a complaint, etc... how many puppies have they sold over the years; how many pet owners in particular do they stay in touch with; how many of these owners would recognise SM symptoms in a dog when as this and other forums show, vets routinely miss the signs themselves.

I would also dispute the claim that the older SM discussion list has primarily dogs from BYBs or mills or rescues. There were plenty of show breeder-bred dogs on there when I was a member for a couple of years and I know from membership of other SM lists that plenty of the affected dogs on those lists come from show breeders, including some who keep saying they have no SM in their lines and no pet owner has ever returned to tell them of a single case (a blatant lie from a couple of these people as I've seen the correspondence).

Margaret C
30th June 2009, 10:56 PM
There are some that say the majority of SM dogs are from puppy mills, BYB, and rescues. I would like to know where did you purchase your dog(s) that have SM? You can answer multiple times but you have to do it all at one time, if that makes sense (and only do this if you have more than one dog effected). Thanks.

My three SM boys were from reputable breeders ( I would say that as I bred two of them )

I have only been able to vote for one of them.
I now get the results showing up instead of the poll boxes?

chloe92us
30th June 2009, 11:58 PM
Now that I think about it, I'm not sure you can post multiple "same" answers...sorry. I know you can do multiple "different" answers. Does anyone else know for sure? We'll just have to add two more to the count in our heads.

waldor
1st July 2009, 01:10 AM
I love surveys and statistics, but I also recognize they don't always show the full story.

Something else to consider is what percentage of all Cavaliers here are purchased from a breeder; both healthy, undiagnosed and SM ones? That would be your base for calculating and comparing.

The total number of Cavs with SM that come from breeders, as a percentage of all the ones (healthy & SM) bought from breeders, may have the same ratio apply to the SM dogs/healthy dogs from other source categories.. (did I word that so it makes sense??)

WoodHaven
1st July 2009, 01:55 AM
The problem is that my definition of a reputable breeder and yours may not match (may not even be close)..

When your dog was dx with SM a reputable breeder would refund the purchase price and help pay part of the testing or meds.

I've seen some of the kennel names of some dogs and I wouldn't call their breeders reputable, even tho their owners might.

chloe92us
1st July 2009, 02:50 AM
Well, like all other SM research we are looking at a very small group of people here with this poll. There are thousands of people who are members of this forum. However a much smaller number actually post. This is just a way to get a casual "snap shot", out of curiosity, into the backgrounds of these dogs. I just honestly don't buy that "the majority of SM dogs come from puppy mills or rescues" as someone stated on another list.

Sandy- When my dog had a murmur show up before her 1 YO b-day, the breeder I bought her from refunded the majority of my money. However, this does not a reputable breeder make! ;) But your point is taken. What one believes is reputable varies greatly from another person's definition of reputable.

WoodHaven
1st July 2009, 02:57 AM
If I had a dog with a cardiologist murmur at one, I would have paid for a Doppler-- if there was a murmur, I would probably have given at least half the paid price back. If there was a significant increase in the next few years, I would have given all their money back. I want my few puppy people happy and my puppies safe, cared for and loved. I take any dog of mine back whenever. No questions asked.

I have 7 MRI's on my dogs-- my results may or may not be representative of cavaliers as a whole.

*Pauline*
1st July 2009, 09:58 AM
I'd be interested in a thread asking what other breeders have done when they were told one of their sold dogs has SM. After a few nasty emails from my breeder to which I replied with the utmost tact, she promptly blocked me on MSN and I never heard from her again. I am still waiting for (of course will never receive) heart certificates for Dylan's sire after I found out he was only 1 year old when he sired Dylan. I was hoping for a glimpse of good news. :(

Karlin
1st July 2009, 10:07 AM
Waldor and Woodhaven: yes and yes, agree on both accounts.