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Margaret C
2nd August 2009, 02:22 PM
Is there problems with posting on the 'breeders' forum, or have I been removed, with no warning, from the list that never censors anyone

There are some current posts on there where I have been asked specific questions..
http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=869&page=6

I really love the suggestion that Jemima Harrison initiated the Imperial College London study into inbreeding
She is obviously one very influential woman, especially to get the Kennel Club's own geneticist as co-author.

Can someone who stoops to the level of infantile name calling such as 'Jemima Puddleduck' really criticise anybody else for being rude? ( not that I was )

Perhaps some one reading this would let the CC members know that I cannot log on to answer them, much as I would like to.

If I have been removed, I will just have to start up another 'megaphone' dialogue, so that I can answer their queries from here.

sins
2nd August 2009, 02:38 PM
Is there problems with posting on the 'breeders' forum, or have I been removed, with no warning, from the list that never censors anyone

Apparently your status has been altered to that of a "Guest"....

Margaret C
2nd August 2009, 02:51 PM
Apparently your status has been altered to that of a "Guest"....

If a Member's status is altered to that of a 'Guest', so that they can no longer answer posts, and without any warning whatsoever............

Isn't that censorship?

Brian M
2nd August 2009, 02:56 PM
Hi Margaret

It looks like you have joined my club ,it seems thats the only way they can answer is by censorship .:(

Bet
2nd August 2009, 03:29 PM
Yes ,for me there is some-thing very amiss with this Forum, just read the Mention about Jemima Harrison,what an impression this is giving to us Heart Broken Cavalier Pet Owners.

This is an example of why I said my Piece about the Lewd and Suggestive Comments about 3 months age, said I had no wish to be associated with what was being said about certain Folk who were trying to help the Cavalier Breed to have Healthier, Longer Lives.

I resigned, Glad I did !!!,some of the Folk on the Cavalier Chat Forum are doing them-selves no Favours .

Bet
2nd August 2009, 03:36 PM
Sorry pressed a wrong Key.

It's comments like what has just appeared on Cavalier Chat, that I am sure will make us Cavalier Pet Owners realize what we are up against concerning some Cavalier Breeders, but those Some certainly Leave a Lot to be Desired, I am so glad I have no part of the Cavalier Chat Forum now.

Bet(Hargreaves)

Margaret C
2nd August 2009, 04:31 PM
I have just heard that the Northern Cavalier Club is the latest regional club to sponsor a MRI scheme for it's members. This is really wonderful news
The majority of cavalier clubs now offer such help to their members.

I have also heard of another Champion dog, scanned at 2.5 years and no SM. That makes him a Grade 'A' dog.
There are not so many champion grade 'A' dogs identified yet, so this is more good news for the breed.

Things have changed so much over the last year.

I worked from 2003 to try & get breeders to recognise that SM was inherited, it was spreading through the breed, and they needed to MRI their breeding stock.

Whatever the claims being made now, the truth is that during that time only a handful of responsible and forward looking breeders scanned their cavaliers.

It was Jemima's film that made thing change, not only in Cavaliers but many other breeds and at the Kennel Club.
Future pet owners and their dogs will have a lot to thank her for.

Jay
2nd August 2009, 05:55 PM
Is There Some-thing Wrong With the Cavalier Chat Forum?

In a nut shell....YES there are many things wrong with that forum! Mainly a certain number of it's members. I can't believe some of the things I read in that forum....yes, I lurk because it is good to know what other people are saying. Believe me, the next cavalier I purchase will certainly not have certain lines represented in it's pedigree. The way certain people are treated on that board is horrible. I have not read anything that you have posted on that board that would give the admins cause to censor you. They say they want an open forum but certain posters seem to have no problem "hitting below the belt".

I am appalled and aghast at many things I read there, but I am especially appalled at the thread titled "British humor" where a person posted a so-called joke about an American Marine, referring to this Marine as a "red-neck" who throws a dog out the window of a moving train. As an American, I am disgusted at this portrayal of our brave Marines, first as "red-necks" and secondly and most importantly as animal abusers. This so-called joke was heralded by several responses in support. I was going to join just to remind those who found this bit of "British humor" so amusing about the high cost of brave American lives lost during WWII defending their country.

There are some wonderful breeders who post on that board and I am pleased when I read some of their posts, knowing that they truly care about the Cavalier breed and are fighting hard for our dogs' welfare. There are others there who are so full of themselves and refuse to see the truth of what they are doing to our wonderful breed. How any breeder can write that health isn't the MOST important issue is beyond me! I will take a HEALTHY poorly marked Cavalier with a "gay tail" over the most beautiful show-dog who is living with the pain of SM or will die of CHF by 8 years of age any day. I keep reading posts about Cavaliers diagnosed with SM who are asymptomatic. Asymptomatic by who's standards? We don't know what those dogs are feeling. Outwardly, they may not show signs of pain but we all know how stoic these dogs can be. How many of us have had dogs who became seriously sick "all of a sudden"? The truth is that dogs often "hide" their discomfort and pain until it becomes totally unbearable.

Certain posters keep screaming that we should be putting our efforts into getting rid of puppy farms and byb instead of hounding them. Yet, every time legislation is introduced to control puppyfarms, they ask us to fight it saying that it hurts the legitimate breeders also. Yes, puppy farms are bad and need to be eliminated, but people have no control over them as individuals. Breeders, as individuals, have control over how they choose to run their breeding programs. I applaud those breeders who are doing what is right for our beautiful breed. We know you are out there and that you care. For those breeders who turn a blind eye to health issues....well.... nuff said!

J.

EddyAnne
2nd August 2009, 05:56 PM
Margaret over there I noticed on each of your previous posts "Margaret C Guest" plus I think I remember seeing an avatar photo as well something like what occurs here with each post but now there is no avatar photo.

Bet over there I also saw on your previous posts "bet hargreaves Guest".

Over there on my previous posts I saw "EddyAnne Approved users", and all others who can post have "Approved users" or "Administrator".
.

HollyDolly
2nd August 2009, 06:26 PM
Breeders, as individuals, have control over how they choose to run their breeding programs.
.


Thats the problem Jay, they do have control, as yet the KC are not brave enough to take that away from them. If refusing to register puppies from parents who have not had the relevant health checks i.e. Heart checked and MRI scanned for SM then maybe we would get somewhere.
I also believe that witholding that most important green card the CC'S could be a step in the right direction. The be all and end all for the Breeder/Shower is the ultimate Champion status, if this was taken away from them can I ask how do you think they would react?

Bet
2nd August 2009, 06:38 PM
HollyDolly has hit the Nail on the Head ,if everything was carried out as HollyDolly mentioned ,I am sure that would be start of Cavaliers having Healthier,Longer Lives.

Bet (Hargreaves)

Margaret C
2nd August 2009, 06:56 PM
I am appalled and aghast at many things I read there, but I am especially appalled at the thread titled "British humor" where a person posted a so-called joke about an American Marine, referring to this Marine as a "red-neck" who throws a dog out the window of a moving train. As an American, I am disgusted at this portrayal of our brave Marines, first as "red-necks" and secondly and most importantly as animal abusers. This so-called joke was herald by several responses in support. I was going to join just to remind those who found this bit of "British humor" so amusing about the high cost of American lives spent during WWII defending their country.

There are some wonderful breeders who post on that board and I am pleased when I read some of their posts, knowing that they truly care about the Cavalier breed and are fighting hard for our dogs' welfare. There are others there who are so full of themselves and refuse to see the truth of what they are doing to our wonderful breed. How any breeder can write that health isn't the MOST important issue is beyond me! I will take a HEALTHY poorly marked Cavalier with a "gay tail" over the most beautiful show-dog who is living with the pain of SM or will die of CHF by 8 years of age any day.
J.

I am sorry about their offensive behaviour. They do not speak for most of the people in the UK.

I did not read this joke. I stopped reading their attempts at humour quite a while ago, but I do find it hard to imagine how anybody on a dog forum would find the thought of throwing a dog from a moving train in any way amusing?

"health, conformity and temperament are all of equal importance - one is not more important than the others"

This was written by the Secretary of the UK Cavalier Club.......... The person the Kennel Club recommends as the first point of call to anyone making enquiries about cavaliers.

As I said on CC, I think that any dog would probably think health and a pain free life was the most important.

tupup
2nd August 2009, 07:20 PM
Oh Margaret im sorry to hear youve been censored/banned on there, your posts were the only chink of light at the end of this damn tunnel.
Right now im disheartened,having just come back from there,the attitude of "Stick together no matter what the experts say & ridicule all attempts to improve health matters" STINKS.
The problem is how much damage they are doing with their lousy attitude,"humour" & vindictivness,God help our breed if its left in their hands.
I cant say what i really feel about them right now,in polite company & in public except every one of them should hang their heads in shame.:swear:

harleyfarley
2nd August 2009, 07:21 PM
well i think soneone better ask them why margaret is a guest, when she is a more of a member than most of those, so ill just pose the question, and stand back.................. di

Jay
2nd August 2009, 07:27 PM
I am sorry about their offensive behaviour. They do not speak for most of the people in the UK

I know that this is so true. You don't need to apologize....they are the ones who need to.


well i think soneone better ask them why margaret is a guest, when she is a more of a member than most of those, so ill just pose the question, and stand back.................. di

Then someone else will need to post asking why HarleyFarley is now a "guest".:rotfl:

J.

harleyfarley
2nd August 2009, 07:31 PM
hehe oh dear:yikes

harleyfarley
2nd August 2009, 07:33 PM
just as well i didnt answer the post about cavalier diseases, some one seems to think that luxating patellas is a thing of the past and been bred out by these breeders, brian you had better enlighten them, oh you cant your banned :bang: di

Rj Mac
2nd August 2009, 07:48 PM
I only ever made 1 post on Cav Chat, as I found......and still find that the attitudes and manner of alot of the regular posters is incredibly childish....and more often than not offensive,

You're better off out of it Margaret.....and you too Brian ;):D

diggers
2nd August 2009, 08:59 PM
In a nut shell....YES there are many things wrong with that forum! Mainly a certain number of it's members. I can't believe some of the things I read in that forum....yes, I lurk because it is good to know what other people are saying. Believe me, the next cavalier I purchase will certainly not have certain lines represented in it's pedigree. The way certain people are treated on that board is horrible. I have not read anything that you have posted on that board that would give the admins cause to censor you. They say they want an open forum but certain posters seem to have no problem "hitting below the belt".

I am appalled and aghast at many things I read there, but I am especially appalled at the thread titled "British humor" where a person posted a so-called joke about an American Marine, referring to this Marine as a "red-neck" who throws a dog out the window of a moving train. As an American, I am disgusted at this portrayal of our brave Marines, first as "red-necks" and secondly and most importantly as animal abusers. This so-called joke was heralded by several responses in support. I was going to join just to remind those who found this bit of "British humor" so amusing about the high cost of brave American lives lost during WWII defending their country.

There are some wonderful breeders who post on that board and I am pleased when I read some of their posts, knowing that they truly care about the Cavalier breed and are fighting hard for our dogs' welfare. There are others there who are so full of themselves and refuse to see the truth of what they are doing to our wonderful breed. How any breeder can write that health isn't the MOST important issue is beyond me! I will take a HEALTHY poorly marked Cavalier with a "gay tail" over the most beautiful show-dog who is living with the pain of SM or will die of CHF by 8 years of age any day. I keep reading posts about Cavaliers diagnosed with SM who are asymptomatic. Asymptomatic by who's standards? We don't know what those dogs are feeling. Outwardly, they may not show signs of pain but we all know how stoic these dogs can be. How many of us have had dogs who became seriously sick "all of a sudden"? The truth is that dogs often "hide" their discomfort and pain until it becomes totally unbearable.

Certain posters keep screaming that we should be putting our efforts into getting rid of puppy farms and byb instead of hounding them. Yet, every time legislation is introduced to control puppyfarms, they ask us to fight it saying that it hurts the legitimate breeders also. Yes, puppy farms are bad and need to be eliminated, but people have no control over them as individuals. Breeders, as individuals, have control over how they choose to run their breeding programs. I applaud those breeders who are doing what is right for our beautiful breed. We know you are out there and that you care. For those breeders who turn a blind eye to health issues....well.... nuff said!

J.
Quite agree with what you say in this post - there is no excuse for it!

tupup
2nd August 2009, 09:17 PM
But Di its all the fault of puppy farmers & BYBs-an excuse over there that covers anything & everything!

WoodHaven
2nd August 2009, 09:37 PM
But Di its all the fault of puppy farmers & BYBs-an excuse over there that covers anything & everything!

IF one of you has purchased a cavalier from them and they aren't telling the truth--- pm them and tell them. I would.

As someone who has had almost 50 cavaliers in their home in the last 5 years (anyone else here???) some that they bought, some that they fostered and some that they bred???? I have to say that my numbers match theirs-- NONE I have bought have even a grade 1 patella-- not one that I have bred has had a grade 1 patella--- I've had a few fosters that had grade 2's and one that had a grade 4 and a grade 2. jmo- Sandy

HollyDolly
2nd August 2009, 09:45 PM
As someone who has had almost 50 cavaliers in their home in the last 5 years (anyone else here???) some that they bought, some that they fostered and some that they bred???? I have to say that my numbers match theirs-- NONE I have bought have even a grade 1 patella-- not one that I have bred has had a grade 1 patella--- I've had a few fosters that had grade 2's and one that had a grade 4 and a grade 2. jmo- Sandy



Thats a lot of dogs, did they not have MVD or SM as well?

Jay
2nd August 2009, 11:31 PM
SWEET! Hey Karlin, did you know that you and I are the same person? At least that is what we are being accused of in a new thread on C-C. Pretty cool trick, especially since we live in two different countries separated by a huge ocean! :sl*p: I guess I pushed someone's button. This is pretty interesting, especially when NO ONE reads this forum anyway.

Sorry, I do happen to have a sense of humor. I just don't have a BAD sense of humor. I prefer my jokes to be smart and creative. I have read some funny ones on C-C, BTW.

J.

I guess if I ever try to register on C-C, I will need to register under a different name.....how about "Jarlin". :rotfl:

frecklesmom
2nd August 2009, 11:38 PM
:lol: Jay. As far as Cav Chat, if any of the public read the "remarks" they'll soon get the idea of the worth of those individuals and steer clear. I wouldn't discourage those individuals, let them dig their holes deeper IMHO.

EddyAnne
2nd August 2009, 11:54 PM
SWEET! Hey Karlin, did you know that you and I are the same person? At least that is what we are being accused of in a new thread on C-C. Pretty cool trick, especially since we live in two different countries separated by a huge ocean! :sl*p:

That doesn't surprise me as some time ago some persons thought I was Karlin or Karlin Father, and yes we are certainly in different countries seperated by huge oceans.
.

Cathy T
3rd August 2009, 12:04 AM
I'm questioning why I even bothered to look over there. I know that board just gets me in a lather, and that's why I quit reading it. Just read through now and my blood is just boiling.

Someone made a comment about the number of members here compared to the number who have reported SM in their dogs. Do you know why more people don't come out in full discussion? Because they are made to feel like idiots who are overreacting to a dog's behavior and are made to look like they've been brainwashed by Karlin.

I'm going to bet there are lot more people, like me, out here who just prefer to keep our issues private for fear of judgement (realize I am not going to be private about this anymore now :o).

Yes, we believe my Shelby has SM. But I am so grateful I had the information from this board so that I did not go naively along believing my girl has allergies, behavior issues or "funny little quirks". And thank God I am able to have an informed and intelligent discussion with my vet about our course of action. Two or three years ago, this would not have been the case.

Bet
3rd August 2009, 10:38 AM
Could I mention that there is Excellant Article in the latest Edition of DOGSTODAY by Jemima Harrison about Puppy Farms and BYB's.Somebody in this Thread about Puppy Farmers and BYB'S.

I guess all of us who have to bear the Brunt of the Vindictiveness and Viciousness of Remarks Hurled at us by some Cavalier Breeders,will know that we have Struck a Raw Nerve.

I think what has upset me more than anything else recently ,was when Cavalier Pet Owners turned on me on another List with their Vitriolic Remarks. I was told that they don't want to be told about the Health Problems in our Cavalier Breed.

Well, Lucky Old Them, as the Saying goes.

Bet(Hargreaves)

*Pauline*
3rd August 2009, 10:48 AM
Could I mention that there is Excellant Article in the latest Edition of DOGSTODAY by Jemima Harrison about Puppy Farms and BYB's.Somebody in this Thread about Puppy Farmers and BYB'S.

Thanks for that Bet, I'll take a look.

Jay
3rd August 2009, 05:15 PM
Dear Margaret,...sorry for hijacking your thread! But the battle of forums continues. Oh well. I just feel the need to answer a few jabs, some directed at me directly. It is not my intention to impose my ideas on breeders how to run their breeding program. I don't want laws forcing breeders to do so either. All that I, personally, would want to see is that breeders follow the health guides that our own Cavalier clubs have implemented. I don't think that is asking too much, the Cavalier clubs own guidelines, the Cavaier clubs own rules.

In addition, there was a comment about me running to Momma because I was offended. No, I was not running to Momma. I was voicing my OPINION. I guess that the freedom of speech that they hold in such high regard only applies to people who agree with them. According to several CC members, I should not voice my opinion that a joke that was posted was in poor taste. Like I said before, many of the freedoms that they now enjoy in their lives were won with the help of American servicemen and women.


I guess all of us who have to bear the Brunt of the Vindictiveness and Viciousness of Remarks Hurled at us by some Cavalier Breeders,will know that we have Struck a Raw Nerve.


Yep, Bet, sad but true. They are digging their hole and it just gets bigger and bigger. But I am through wasting my time with the likes of certain people.

On the other hand, I still maintain that there are some absolutely wonderful breeders on that list so I will continue to read the posts to learn from them. To those breeders, THANK YOU so much. This should not be an "us" against "them". I maintain a wonderful relationship with the breeder of my two dogs. I always keep her informed on how my dogs are doing.

Cathy, you and Shelby are in my prayers. I know how much you love both Jake and Shelby. I know that you will do everything possible for Shelby.

J.

harleyfarley
3rd August 2009, 06:23 PM
But Di its all the fault of puppy farmers & BYBs-an excuse over there that covers anything & everything!


isnt that just it, perfect, the problem such as sm doesnt affect only dogs from puppy farms, who on here brought their dog from a puppy farm, not many i doubt.

I did make a suggestion to someone who pm'ed me on cav chat, my idea was that if everyone who had a dog with sm, or even cm, to give me the kennel name and the contact detail i would put together a list of defective breeding breeders, and that in turn would mean maybe (but not def) the others had none that we know off thus creating a plausible list. Well i cant print the reply i got, di

harleyfarley
3rd August 2009, 07:19 PM
SWEET! Hey Karlin, did you know that you and I are the same person? At least that is what we are being accused of in a new thread on C-C. Pretty cool trick, especially since we live in two different countries separated by a huge ocean! :sl*p: I guess I pushed someone's button. This is pretty interesting, especially when NO ONE reads this forum anyway.

Sorry, I do happen to have a sense of humor. I just don't have a BAD sense of humor. I prefer my jokes to be smart and creative. I have read some funny ones on C-C, BTW.

J.

I guess if I ever try to register on C-C, I will need to register under a different name.....how about "Jarlin". :rotfl:

hehe, if karlin is so wrong and such an awful person, why are they so worried about why do they think anyone who is knowledgeable (sorry totally wrong) maybe karlin is cogneto, and why would she want to go on that forum anyway, apart from a good laugh. di

tupup
3rd August 2009, 07:34 PM
Di we did a poll recently in the SM section about where people had bought their SM dogs from, last time i looked at it the highest percentage were dogs bought from reputable breedersicon_whistling

Yorkysue
3rd August 2009, 07:35 PM
I don't know a lot about this other forum, as I've not been on it, but I'm worried that what some of you seem to be saying is that the breeders on this other site are worse than puppy farmers? Is this true, becuase I thought that one should never support puppy farmers and that the dogs lived in appalling conditions and were sickly/unhealthy and over used for breeding etc.

Are you saying the breeders on the other forum do the same with their dogs? because if that is the case - where should I buy a puppy from, as I want to do soon as my other cavalier is now getting quite old (and has not health problems apart from old age)

I am now really worried from what is being said or implied.

tupup
3rd August 2009, 08:03 PM
Hi Yorkysue,
im not sure anyone is saying they are worse than PFs nor that they mistreat their dogs however a lot of the problems stem from their attitude to "Pet people" who seem to be held with distaste over there despite the fact that "pet people" will often im sure be their bread & butter
I think you'd be best going to take a look so you can form your own opinion as some of us here have been, lets say, spoken of unkindly over there in the past,& therefore are somewhat tired of the vitriol aimed our way:rolleyes:
Also Margaret C has done more to help us with affected dogs & to implement better health testing,fund raising etc than all of us & them put together & so to see her being treated so badly with no explanation is IMO disgraceful.
Perhaps someone else here can articulate this better than i:)

Margaret C
3rd August 2009, 08:19 PM
isnt that just it, perfect, the problem such as sm doesnt affect only dogs from puppy farms, who on here brought their dog from a puppy farm, not many i doubt.

I did make a suggestion to someone who pm'ed me on cav chat, my idea was that if everyone who had a dog with sm, or even cm, to give me the kennel name and the contact detail i would put together a list of defective breeding breeders, and that in turn would mean maybe (but not def) the others had none that we know off thus creating a plausible list. Well i cant print the reply i got, di

Oh I would love to see that reply.

I don't think that such a list would work. Every kennel will have produced cases of SM over the last few years, and often it will not be the breeders fault.

Still, it looks as if your fall from grace has been a very temporary one, you seem to be back as an approved user.

It appears no explanation is going to be given as to what I did to get removed with no warning.

Perhaps it was because I had taken the time to read the health research information over the last few years and I actually knew too many of the answers?
I have often wondered why breeders who have had no interest in health issues, and never attended any of the talks or seminars in the past, have suddenly put themselves forward as health representatives?
There is a theory that sometimes people take positions more to slow progress than to speed it.

I tried to see what Mark ( of Mark & Kelly ) had posted that warranted his expulsion but his last post seems to have been on using a machine for testing when a bitch is ready for mating?
I have never met the gentleman, but I know he has arranged special scanning trips from Devon to Chestergate, & driven the coach. Perhaps he too is a little too interested & pro-active in health matters?

The administrators on CavalierChat always appear so very uncomfortable when any one asks health related questions. Strange really when three of the four moderators are health representatives.

The CC forum is linked to a website that is called www.cavalierhealth.co.uk (http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk)
Do go and have a look at what is not there........ no real health information, no summary of Simon Swift's latest talk, where he says MVD rates have not improved in eighteen years, no mention of Clare Rusbridge's site with the invaluable question & answer section.

It does have a lot of articles criticising PDE & denying the real extent of the SM health problem.

That website was set up after the Pedigree Dogs Exposed film was shown, probably with money from the £8,000 PR fund that the fourth moderator helped set up ( The reaction after the film was not to raise money for health research but to launch a worldwide appeal for money to pay for a Public Relations firm )

Another thread has started now, fascinating, but worrying to see that some breeders would prefer to have a dog with a 25% chance of a painful condition, rather than one that has another breed 14 generations back in the pedigree, but is disease free. Remember the Eugenics section in the documentary?
http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=940

chloe92us
3rd August 2009, 10:40 PM
Yorkysue- The other forum is comprised mostly of breeders, where this one is mostly pet owners/ non-breeders. Both forums will give you lots of information and it's up to you what to do with the information.

Karlin (the admin and owner of this site) also runs an SM website, so there are many people on this forum who have dogs that have SM. There was a big film that aired last year and caused a lot of uproar as it brought to light many of the genetic issues in purebred dogs. Some breeders have chosen to move forward in finding solutions to the problems, and some have chosen to ignore and fight against them. It's up to you as a pet buyer to research the problems within the breed and find a breeder that you feel comfortable with; one that you actually like, AND one that you feel does the appropriate amount of testing on their breeding stock.

This site is about educating people to the possible problems and how to AVOID back-yard-breeders and mill dogs. There does seem to be a higher # of SM dogs coming from reputable breeders although there are no studies to prove it. HOWEVER...most other problems in Cavaliers (hearts, knees, hips, eyes, etc) are found in much greater numbers from dogs coming from puppy mills. No one is saying the "reputable" breeders are worse than puppy mills. If that is the impression that is being left with those who have not been regulars on this site, we may all want to take a step back and think twice about what we say. Just know that there are personality/ morality conflicts between SOME of the two groups of regulars that visit both sites and that's something you need to keep in mind when reading through the bickering. :thmbsup:

harleyfarley
4th August 2009, 06:26 PM
Di we did a poll recently in the SM section about where people had bought their SM dogs from, last time i looked at it the highest percentage were dogs bought from reputable breedersicon_whistling

oh that poll, yes my dog was one of those ones too. yes you can see that the most dogs and all dogs i know are from very reputable breeders and they all have sm or h.d or something hereitary wrong with with them. so if breeder stuck to a breeding protocol then a lot of these hereditary problems would be in a minority and maybe only showing up in old age, as it is we are going to lucky to get any old age cavaliers. di

Yorkysue
5th August 2009, 08:20 PM
Where abouts is the thread on the poll?

Nicki
5th August 2009, 09:12 PM
The thread is here

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=30915&page=2

WoodHaven
5th August 2009, 10:45 PM
The thread is here

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=30915&page=2

This is stating there are 25 cases if SM on this list of thousands who can reply. Of those, there are 17 from reputable breeders (which is an undefined term). Are all 25 cases verified by MRI? AND to make this all the more convoluted-- I wonder how many people have cavaliers that are being treated for allergies that actually have SM itching? The steroids etc.. could make the itching of either SM or allergies less severe, thinking it was a proper dx.

chloe92us
6th August 2009, 01:47 AM
Sandy- we all know there are not thousands of *active* members- maybe about 100 or so that regularly check in and would have seen that VERY CASUAL poll.

WoodHaven
6th August 2009, 02:01 AM
Sandy- we all know there are not thousands of *active* members- maybe about 100 or so that regularly check in and would have seen that VERY CASUAL poll.

My point was there are well over a thousand people that can/could reply to that poll- even anonymously . 25 did, 2/3rds said they got their dog from a reputable breeder.

chloe92us
6th August 2009, 03:20 AM
On the Cavalier Health website, the survey results of their "casual" poll have also been displayed. I found it interesting that of the 350 people that responded, about 85 own(ed) or have bred a dog "thought" to have SM (about 24%). In addition, 55 said they own(ed) or have bred dogs that were confirmed but were asymptomatic. So approximately 140 of the 350 (40%) of the respondents have personally owned or bred a dog with SM; confirmed but asymptomatic, or suspected. What stat is missing is how many dogs have been confirmed and are also symptomatic? That was missing and I would like to know.

You can see all the results of the survey here: www.cavalierhealth.co.uk (http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk) and scroll to the bottom.

Yorkysue
6th August 2009, 09:18 AM
Thank you to the people who replied to my queries, your comments have been very helpful and the subsequent discussions on this thread show that it is a bit of a minefield out there and that personal interpretation always comes into any discussions. (of course)

I have looked on the other site and there are some really good things on it and some really caring people! just like on this site. I suppose something like breeding a litter of pups is not as easy as all that if you want to try and breed healthy ones and nothing can be for sure.

I still think that puppy farms are THE most appalling (whatever anyone else says) especillay after watching the news!!!! and I won't change my mind on that one:mad::mad:

*Pauline*
6th August 2009, 09:40 AM
What stat is missing is how many dogs have been confirmed and are also symptomatic? That was missing and I would like to know.

Yes I agree, it doesn't complete the whole picture without those stats.

Margaret C
7th August 2009, 12:17 AM
I think that we may have benefited from cavalierchat's sudden change of management style.
Mark Marshall, who was also unceremoniously removed as a member, with no warning or explanation, has now joined this forum.

People reading here may be interested in a scanning day he is organising, I understand these have been very well organised events....... http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=31386 (http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=31386)

Sabby
7th August 2009, 10:25 AM
I must say I never have even tried to go on the Cavalier Chat Forum as what I hear on here about it is enough for me. All the people that have been removed from there are all decent people who have only the Cavaliers Health at heart. It looks like if you have a different opinion you are not welcome there so why put yourself through it itís like hitting your head against a brick wall. :bang:
At least on CT we all care about the same thing and that is about the health of our Cavaliers and how we can move forward.

sins
7th August 2009, 11:09 AM
Sabby,
I would recommend signing up to CC and giving it a try.
Then make up your own mind,based on what you see and what the members say to you.Like every message board, you'll find a mix of personalities, some people are wonderful, there are some who treat pet people with contempt but they don't post very often.
They also have this hilarious little troll who loves having a go at cavalier talk members beause they come from a forum where people are actually banned!! Since CC now ban people too, I think it's gone on a scuba diving expedition to seek the high moral ground...icon_whistling
So you see we're not all that different when push comes to shove.
While on the subject of push and shove, the bloke who drives the Doggiebus to Chestergates has been pushed for no discernible reason.How anyone thought that this was going to end well is beyond me! This flies in the face of the much vaunted ethos of a site where people can speak freely without fear of being banned. Why deny someone a platform from which to facilitate breeders who want the lowest possible price and least amount of hassle to have their breeding stock tested? What heinous transgression has this man committed? Does he supply cavalier pelts to Cruella De Vil or something??
Anyway apart from that, There are some great people on CC who love their dogs to bits and are rightfully proud of them whether on the couch or in the showring.Check it out for yourself.
Sins

Bet
7th August 2009, 11:20 AM
Sabby,

I so agree with you, I have mentioned the reason I Resigned from the CC Forum was because of the Suggestive and Lewd Comments made against certain Folk who had the wish to make the Cavaloers have the chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives.

Also when when I stepped out of line about how SM and MVD were affecting our Cavalier Breed, there were some who came down on me like a Ton of Bricks.

The Posts were really hitting below the Belt.!!!

I wonder where all those Cavalier Breeders who are now claiming to be Whiter Than Snow and doing all they can for Cavaliers, were around 20 years ago,when we Broken Hearted Cavalier Pet People were crying out for Help beause of our Cavaliers dying at such a young age from Heart Trouble.

The only Person who was listening at that time was Mrs L Jupp. She got the Research into the MVD Problem off the Ground. She is now the Chairman of the UK CKCS Club

There seems to as much feuding about the SM in Cavaliers amongst certain Cavalier Breeders as there was 20 years ago about the MVD Trouble.

Finally if I could mention I have been a Genuine Cavalier Pet Owner for over 30 years,never have concerned my-self about the Standard or Conformation of Cavaliers, only what I am sure other Cavalier Pet Owners have wished for, that our Cherished Cavaliers could have the chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives,which has been sadly lacking for many years for a good number of Cavaliers.

Bet(Hargreaves)

Yorkysue
7th August 2009, 12:08 PM
I would definitely say to anyone on here who hasn't looked at the Cavalier Chat forum to have a look at it.

I have only looked at it over the past couple of days as there seemed to be differences of opinion and I think it is a very good forum - with some very caring people on it who stick up for our breed and do test their dogs, and don't ridicule pet people!! There is a thread at the moment where posters are saying we all should be working together not falling out!!!!!!!

And I agree - How can things change if everyone take pot shots at each other and trys to score points?

pippa
7th August 2009, 12:41 PM
I would definitely say to anyone on here who hasn't looked at the Cavalier Chat forum to have a look at it.





I would have to agree, I joined the CC forum back in January and I have to say there are some really nice people on there. I just post about general things and reply to posts of the same nature. I do not get involved in any of the heated debates. I think on a forum it is too easy to offend as you cannot see who you are relpying to and they cannot see you, so there is no tone of voice or facial expressions to go by and things can be taken the wrong way.

A lot gets said on both forums about the 'other' but I tend to make up my own mind about things and based on what I see, I like both forums and get pleasure reading posts and interacting with people on both of them.

Just my opinion of course,but to anyone who hasn't visited try it and then make up your own mind and to anyone who has visited and didn't like it,that's fine too ,but, maybe let other people decide for themselves.

It would be a very boring world if we all followed each other like sheep and didn't try something new because someone advised us not too or gave us their opinion on something and we took it as read and never tried it out.

There are of course some things I don't agree with that is said over on CC but the same can be said for this or any other forum, but if I don't agree with what I read I either reply when I have had time to think about what I will say or I just choose not to read that thread. I do not come on either of the forums to say what has been said on the other as that just causes bad feeling between people on the forums.

I do hope all this Tit for Tat between the two forums can be sorted and people can visit both of them without feeling like a traitor after all they are both places where people can share and get advice etc and it is not a competition to see which forum is better.

I want to take this opportunity to thank people on both forums for any advice given to me and for letting me share stories of my three dogs:)

I intend posting this reply over on CC also.

MARK MARSHALL
7th August 2009, 02:43 PM
I emailed the co owner of the site as above and aired a couple of issues, one being that I had been removed wthout notice, warning or good reason.

She has now got back to me and placed the ball in my court, with the option of rejoining.

I have accepted the offer.

Shall of course stay with CT as I feel at home here, being a PET person with only a little SHOW blood in my DNA.

Regards,

Mark.

Jay
7th August 2009, 04:31 PM
I certainly agree that CC is a forum worth checking out. Like I have written before, there are some very wonderful breeders who post to that site. However, I am not a member of that forum but have been flamed there for something that I wrote in this thread. We all know that emails, written correspondence, letters, etc. are different that actually speaking to someone face to face. Honestly, if I had inadvertently upset someone and became aware of it, I would try to understand where that person was coming from rather than to continue to ridicule them. Hey, but that's me. So, like anything else, I will read the posts from the breeders that I admire and ignore the others. I will probably register sometime (but not under the name Jay as I am sure that the admin would ban me immediately using that name) because I would like to see the photos that are posted. I don't think I would ever post anything there however.

J.

chloe92us
7th August 2009, 08:22 PM
I read both forums as well but I enjoy this one most for several reasons, mainly because it's the most active and there are *always* new posts to read! There are some very caring breeders on CC and it has been very enlightening to learn their perspectives. I've found that some of my preconceived notions of "them" were slightly askew. I do find, however, that there are a few people on CC that are downright insulting. I don't think anyone here calls them names or makes up offensive nicknames for specific members, and I think it's rude that the few there do! ;)

Margaret C
7th August 2009, 08:32 PM
I emailed the co owner of the site as above and aired a couple of issues, one being that I had been removed wthout notice, warning or good reason.

She has now got back to me and placed the ball in my court, with the option of rejoining.

I have accepted the offer.

Shall of course stay with CT as I feel at home here, being a PET person with only a little SHOW blood in my DNA.

Regards,

Mark.

Hello Mark,

Does that make you a crossbreed?

I'm pleased for you, you had done nothing to deserve being removed so unceremoniously.

I'm still wondering what I did.
I suspect that one of the moderators got out of bed on the wrong side that day?

sins
7th August 2009, 09:45 PM
I think we're all still wondering what EITHER of you allegedly did :(.
I thought the forum thrived on robust debate. Hopefully you will be reinstated without further delay.Surely everyone can finally try to find common ground.
Sins

Brian M
7th August 2009, 09:54 PM
Sins

Does that mean I am forever left to wander alone on this planet ,cast off not wanted "persona non grata":cry*ing:,hopefully at least that doesn't apply on CT.:)

sins
7th August 2009, 10:23 PM
:hug:Awww, not at all Brian, we want to keep you all to ourselves here.Some things are just too good to share, we insist on total exclusivity where you're concerned;)
Sins

Bet
8th August 2009, 09:54 AM
Maybe this is not the right Thread to be asking this question, but why are we folk who who are trying to help the Cavaliers live Healthier, Longer Lives , get accused by some of being Animal Rights Activists.

Where is the connection?

Bet (Hargreaves)

Margaret C
8th August 2009, 03:46 PM
I think we're all still wondering what EITHER of you allegedly did :(.
I thought the forum thrived on robust debate. Hopefully you will be reinstated without further delay.Surely everyone can finally try to find common ground.
Sins

I think it will be hard to find common ground with some of the members of cavalierchat because of the events of last year.

I do realise there are many people here who do not know the background to my involvement in the film Pedigree Dogs Exposed.

The documentary was shown August last year, and the dog showing and breeding world received a wake up call that it is still reeling from.

It is a long story, I am tempted to start a new thread called 'SM, PDE, SGM, CC and MC' and gradually explain the events, and what led up to them.
(Don't worry, I will supply a glossary to explain the initials)

Anybody interested?

Bet
8th August 2009, 04:36 PM
Margaret,

That I think would be a good idea.

There seems to be quite a number of Folk who are not aware to all that is happening to-day.

Bet(Hargreaves)

sins
8th August 2009, 05:19 PM
I guess I've been here some time before PDE and followed the entire saga, but I would love to hear Monty's story before continuing onto the political upheaval of last year.
Sins

harleyfarley
8th August 2009, 05:30 PM
i only know part of the story and heard so much from other people which may or may not be true, so yes i would be very interested. di

chloe92us
8th August 2009, 08:40 PM
MC- I don't think anything will be gained by presenting the entire story again. For those who are interested, do a search for PDE on this forum and look at the threads from last summer. Just MHO!

I feel that, in general, it has been a wake up call for some of the breeders that were in denial about SM in their lines and has prompted many more to now scan their breeding stock. In addition, we have (at least in the US) seen many more puppy mills closing down for various reasons which is a GREAT THING!!!! Television shows like PDE (which most people in the US know nothing about) and Oprah's special on puppy mills has helped enlighten the public to the "behind the scenes" of both large-scale and hobby-scale breeding practices.

Bottom line; puppy mills are going out of business, and breeders that were not health-focused are now being forced to be. Lots of mud slinging & name calling unfortunately took place in the process, and relationships have been forever severed as a result.

The worst repercusion (spelling?) of the events is that a good number of breeders (both US & UK) who have the *power* to change the breed forever (for the good!) feel that confidentiality was breached by some researchers and are now "boycotting" very important research projects. This is an absolute tragedy.

Karlin
8th August 2009, 08:54 PM
Be very cautious about judging people on whether they appear to be 'nice' and 'very helpful' and 'well informed'.

Some work very hard to appear this way, especially on the public lists and boards (you should have a read of the things they say on Allaboutcavaliers, their private list :rolleyes:), because it is to their benefit to sow FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) about the actual situation regarding health issues. Some of the posts here indicate how successful they occasionally are at doing so.

Some of those who try very very hard to be sugary sweet-nice (though the mask does fall in some of the free-for-alls!) are those who have the greatest interest in keeping the breeding situation as it is. Some have lines that have serious problems which *will* emerge over time to other breeders (at least, those that care) as they seek EBVs for prospective studs or dams -- and these people know they have these problems, know they have been told of affected dogs from their lines, and in several cases, publicly lie about it (I have the evidence, 1st hand, not second hand or third hand like some of the gossip that gets circulated about on this dog or that by these same 'nice' breeders)... but as I have said before, they are also amongst those that have knowingly turned a blind eye to known, affected dogs and either put them to stud despite knowing they are throwing SM offspring, sold the affected dogs on outside their home markets to unsuspecting buyers who then put them to stud abroad, allowed people they KNOW are correct on key health issues and KNOW have given fully truthful accounts of their actions to be put under attack, and in other ways I have recounted to some privately, with evidence to fully back my claims, regularly adopt a 'do as a say, not as a do' approach to health and to advising pet buyers on how to choose a health-focused breeder.

To no great surprise many of these people initially support the latest vet specialist who is doing this research or that, but as soon as it becomes clear that truth about given lines is going to emerge, or a need for far more restrictive, controlled breeding practice than is now being done, then the researcher is suddenly rejected (either publicly as some can see by what is now being said about EBVs by some initially supportive breeders, or privately, as they know they continue to breed as they wish beyond public scrutiny... for now. Not, I believe, for too much longer).

Personally, I've always been a great fan of CavalierChat :) because when the mask slips, as it regularly does for several of the 'nice' breeders, you see many of these people for what they are truly like; and also, it has supplied so much extremely useful evidence for past parliamentary enquiries into dog breeding, breed health, etc.

Because of that, the site (ironically) makes several aspects of working toward actual breed health much easier though they may not be obvious.

There are some great breeders out there all right, and many want the system to change. Many of these people are appalled by the 'nice' breeders and what they do.

I'd go by actual actions rather than whether people appear nice or seem to say the right things. Believe me, there is a great chasm between what some say, and what they actually think and do.

Never forget that some of the 'nicest' breeders out there -- as many on this board can testify -- are the worst commercial breeders with their friendly websites and slightly cheaper dogs, because they know that many show breeders can be difficult to approach and are intimidating. It pays -- literally -- to appear to be nice, for some. Look for what people are actually doing, ask for the actual CURRENT health certs; look up the breeding *history* for a dog, not just the current litter (as the dog may now be of the right age for the health protocols but may have been bred many, many times outside of it previously). :thmbsup:

Margaret C
8th August 2009, 10:28 PM
The worst repercusion (spelling?) of the events is that a good number of breeders (both US & UK) who have the *power* to change the breed forever (for the good!) feel that confidentiality was breached by some researchers and are now "boycotting" very important research projects. This is an absolute tragedy.

This is a statement that really intrigues me.

Can you give a few more details. What reasons do these breeders give when they say confidentiality was breached by researchers?

chloe92us
9th August 2009, 03:13 AM
Will not comment about it, Margaret, but I do know it is happening.

sins
9th August 2009, 01:17 PM
a good number of breeders (both US & UK) who have the *power* to change the breed forever (for the good!) feel that confidentiality was breached by some researchers and are now "boycotting" very important research projects

Then it's very sad indeed that these people have any power at all isn't it?
Their behaviour and attitude amounts to a shocking abuse of *power*.
Any breeder who cares for the future of the little dogs that they breed,should replace the word power with responsibility and step up to the plate and do their duty and work with researchers who in many cases have dedicated and even staked their careers on finding the root causes of SM and MVD.
This charge of researchers breaching confidentiality is simply an allegation with no substance to back it up. If there is proof of this then let's have it?
Sins

Bet
9th August 2009, 01:50 PM
You are so right Sins,

If it can't be backed up with evidence ,then for me it's just Malicious Gossip coming from some Cavalier Folk with a Chip on their Shoulder.

What harm this is doing our Breed.

I know I helped the research into the SM Pedigrees of Cavaliers in the early days, and believe you me, NOTHING was ever told me by the Researchers, I was quizzed by some Cavalier Breeders World WIDE about the Famous 4 Cavaliers asto who they were, but I did'nt have a clue.

So I really do think that nobody can claim to have confidential information about Cavaliers.

So to Chloe , you are maybe going down a dangerous route.

Bet(Hargreaves)

chloe92us
9th August 2009, 01:56 PM
I don't think it's any secret that some breeders were upset at what Clare Rusbridge and Simon Swift said on PDE. I don't see how what I've said is any surprise? It's already been mentioned in this thread about some breeders not contributing to the EBV research. Although many more breeders are now scanning, I don't think all of those scans are being contributed to research and that's a shame. When I say *power*~ I mean any breeder who is scanning has the power to help with positive change in the breed~ and I DO feel it is a responsibility to the future of the Cavalier.

sins
9th August 2009, 02:03 PM
No Trisha, it's no surprise at all.
Sins

Karlin
9th August 2009, 02:14 PM
When I say *power*~ I mean any breeder who is scanning has the power to help with positive change in the breed~ and I DO feel it is a responsibility to the future of the Cavalier.

Absolutely.

The complex inheritance is only going to be untangled by having the results of as wide a range of scans as possible. Also, for many breeders they will find the more scans are submitted, the more options they will have with their own dogs/lines -- because minimal information is a lot more likely to weigh against them than for them! It will be likely that all breeders will have a range of good options for matings but this will only emerge from having a wide range of scans. Not contributing to a project that many breeders ARE going to use -- and where many breeders will be talking amongst each other about the results they get back on some dogs of their own and others' breeding -- means ending up with weak data that is far more likely to obscure the potential strengths within their lines.

Whatever about accusing researchers of 'breaching confidentiality' (which is a serious professional accusation and potentially defamatory) there are definitely breeders who will talk about others' dogs, and information on lines, good or bad, is unlikely to stay hidden. Contributing to Sarah Blott's research is therefore one of the best ways of making sure the gossip isn't only negative and that results are more nuanced. A lot of scans going to Sarah Blott are coming from affected dogs don't forget -- if breeders are (hopefully!) getting all the good scans they are stating on their private and public discussion lists then they need to be putting this information towards research. If they are getting poor scans it may be the choice of matings and that information is also critical. If anyone cares about the breed rather than just their egos then all scans need to be going to research. The EBVs combined with the genome work is going to be the best and very likely, the ONLY shot at saving this breed from oblivion in the longer term but more important -- relieving and reducing the pain suffered by so many dogs in this breed in the shorter term.

Margaret C
9th August 2009, 08:59 PM
I don't think it's any secret that some breeders were upset at what Clare Rusbridge and Simon Swift said on PDE. I don't see how what I've said is any surprise? It's already been mentioned in this thread about some breeders not contributing to the EBV research. Although many more breeders are now scanning, I don't think all of those scans are being contributed to research and that's a shame. When I say *power*~ I mean any breeder who is scanning has the power to help with positive change in the breed~ and I DO feel it is a responsibility to the future of the Cavalier.

I know that one breeder has written that these specialists "stabbed us in the back" because when interviewed on the documentary they confirmed that cavaliers have health problems. Should researchers study the health of cavaliers but keep their conclusions a closely guarded secret?

Health Representatives demanding that researchers should conceal their findings, so they do not upset breeders, seems to suggest some very warped thinking and a sorry outlook for cavalier health research.

The other scenario, where confidentiality is cited as an issue, is in connection with my appearance on the film. I confirmed that someone's popular and successful stud dog had a MRI scanned diagnosis of SM, and that all the top breeders knew it.

However my action is viewed, I cannot see how it can be used as a justification for boycotting important research studies.

Karlin
9th August 2009, 10:11 PM
However my action is viewed, I cannot see how it can be used as a justification for boycotting important research studies.

Some also said that a researcher revealed the results of the scan (for the programme). Then how to explain that I had heard the full story of this dog via other breeders well before Pedigree Dogs Exposed and when I barely knew who Margaret Carter was. But the people who told me -- and I heard this from more than one breeder -- were aware the breeder in question had been showing the scans around at a show and telling people of the results and thus his status was widely known and had since been gossiped about relentlessly. For breeders then to refuse to get involved with or even give any support to research on the basis that 'researchers' (or Margaret) revealed confidential scans is -- as I know many in the UK club know well, and at the very highest levels of the regional and national clubs -- using a known falsehood to suppress further research, or deliberately confuse and sow uncertainty, or undermine some researchers.

Many people working for the breed were shockingly treated to back up the agenda of some people. Some breeders put a key and very dedicated and helpful, club-supportive researcher into a horrible position by advocating the views of Dr Ingpen -- their much-trumpeted 'neutral authority' who was, as I found through a few moments of basic googling :rolleyes: -- the husband of a key person in the Australian cavalier club, and friends of the breeder who owned the dog in the film. And as a couple of human medics have confirmed, not of a background that would be terribly informed on reading and analyzing dog MRIs either as reading dog MRIs has differences to reading human MRIs. Not that his opinion was necessarily to be dismissed out of hand but his views were put forward when some doing so would have known the true story about the scans and his views were based on small images of a scan, not the digital originals. And those views also questioned the ability of a dedicated researcher in a public forum -- as if that researcher couldn't know a syrinx when he sees a syrinx, having read over a thousand cavalier MRIs and authored the main text on canine MRI.

Nonetheless the researcher, due to his own dedication to the breed and helping some of the breeders who have used him most shamefully, continues to support them and their scanning programmes generously with his time and effort.

These are the people these breeders claim violate confidentiality.

Those who actually care about the breed -- rather than their show social lives and shelf of ribbons and trophies and puppy income -- can be very thankful the researchers generally ignore these sad people and continue to work on behalf of the breed.