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Bruce H
9th August 2009, 01:50 PM
Well, against my better judgement, Iíve decided to come out of hibernation and have a good old-fashioned meltdown.

What on earth makes some of you think that itís only up to the breeders to solve the Cavaliers problems?! Because thatís what Iím hearing here and elsewhere. In my opinion the solution is in research. And research costs money. Lots of money. How about instead of telling we breeders itís all up to us, you pet people (I hate that phrase, there has to be a better one)also take a little responsibility for the breed that you love so much. Take what you would spend to go out to eat for a month and donate it to research. Do that every year. A couple years ago I spearheaded a fundraiser for a specific research project on two of the Cavalier forums and a lot of people donated; to those people, I canít express in words how much I appreciated it. But what was notable was how many people in the combined membership didnít donate.

I know this is a little disjointed, but I wanted to say something before I changed my mind and didnít say anything. PLEASE try to bury the hatchet and help us breeders solve the health problems. Just pointing the finger at us will solve very little. Itís everyoneís responsibility, breeders canít do it alone, there's too few of us and too little money.

sins
9th August 2009, 02:01 PM
Will this not help Bruce?

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=28271&page=13

This is where most members here who chose to contribute prefer to pledge their support. And a very worthwhile cause it is too.

Sins

Karlin
9th August 2009, 02:21 PM
Thanks for the post Bruce.

If you go back through many threads here you will see that in almost any one that I have contributed to on the topic of research, I stress over and over that puppy buyers are a very important force for change both by supporting those breeders who scan and contribute to research (as this directly enables those breeders to continue breeding and showing and working towards better overall breed health). I and many others here also regularly encourage every pet owner to support research (many regularly do, some with quite astonishingly large sums -- I know of one for example who has supported directly with thousands of dollars, now running into 5 figures -- just one person!).

Many here have directly supported research by paying to have their cavaliers scanned for research, including me. Just for what it is worth, I would estimate my personal out of pocket donations to researchers and research now at approximately 4000 dollars/3000 euro. This is in between the costs to me to travel twice to the UK with the dogs & pay for scans, pay for blood draws and DNA swabs (twice) and send to the UK & Canada (as I own an affected and unaffected dog from the same sire, their DNA is considered very valuable, as is that of my 10 year old Roycroft clear girl); personal donations to one of the main USA club funds towards SM research, and direct cash donations to the SM postmortem project and the Canadian research. I would not have scanned just for a basic SM diagnosis and chose to go to the UK (with the associated travel costs) because I could have the scans go directly to research work.

But only breeders have a direct incentive and immediate imperative to scan and support research on MVD and SM.

They own the breeding dogs and make the breeding decisions. We do not. Your decisions now directly influence the health of every litter and breed health overall.

The heaviest weight must be for the individual breeders and breed clubs to support the research that will help the breed they breed and show, for their own personal pleasure, to survive. Our support as puppy buyers contributes to longer term results but not the short term effect you have every single time you decide to mate two dogs together.

I know you haven't been here in a while so perhaps have missed the ongoing fundraising efforts through eBay sales for example. There are a couple of threads along those lines and purchases allow board members to contribute even at the most modest level. Every donation no matter how small always matters. :)

Margaret C
9th August 2009, 03:03 PM
Well, against my better judgement, Iíve decided to come out of hibernation and have a good old-fashioned meltdown.

What on earth makes some of you think that itís only up to the breeders to solve the Cavaliers problems?! Because thatís what Iím hearing here and elsewhere. In my opinion the solution is in research. And research costs money. Lots of money. How about instead of telling we breeders itís all up to us, you pet people (I hate that phrase, there has to be a better one)also take a little responsibility for the breed that you love so much..

Hello Bruce,

Welcome to the debate, I'm just sorry I feel the need to disagree with what you say.

It is the breeders that decide which dog will be mated to which bitch, the health of the parents is entirely the responsibility of the breeders.
The pet buyers do have the power to refuse to buy from breeders that do not health test their dogs. I hope more & more will exercise that power.

Research is useless if breeders will not support it in practical ways, by giving information that is needed, and by using guidelines so that results can be assessed.

In the UK we have had a MVD protocol for ten years, but we don't know if it really would improve the number of cavaliers with early-onset heart murmur, because breeders have not followed it in its entirety.
Now we have cavalier club members fudging the SM guidelines by mating underage ( Grade C ) and unscanned ( grade D ) cavaliers.
If they do not get their act together we will never know if the guidelines would help.

I was the fundraiser for the Cavalier Club Lub Dub fund. In my experience it is the pet owners that donate most for research projects. There are certain groups of breeders/ exhibitors that are wonderful, they organise very successful events and work very hard, but many breeders would not buy a raffle ticket or pack of Christmas cards, on principle, if it is for research.

The mainly pet owners on this forum have helped me raise over £2,000 pounds for a project that supplies cavalier cell tissue to five different research projects, including the Canadian project searching for the SM genes.
http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/collection.htm
(This scheme is publicised on Clare Rusbridge's website, but I cannot get it put in the Dog World breed notes, or on the UK Cavalierhealth website )


Itís everyoneís responsibility, breeders canít do it alone, there's too few of us and too little money.

It is the breeder's responsibility, as they play God every time they mate two living breathing animals together. Pet owners have no say in planning breeding programmes. I am just thankful that they love their dogs so much that they are willing to help the breed in so many ways.


Will this not help Bruce?

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=28271&page=13

This is where most members here who chose to contribute prefer to pledge their support. And a very worthwhile cause it is too.

Sins

I took the third little cavalier body into Cambridge on Friday. My grateful thanks to the caring owner that volunteered him.
I will do an update on the SM Collection Scheme, private donations and the eBay fund raising in a later post

WoodHaven
9th August 2009, 03:11 PM
I am sorry Margaret, but here in the USA-- the bottom line with puppy buyers seems to be $$$. They don't care about testing. They want a cute puppy to take care of and I've been called crazy that "when" I do have pups I Won't sell them for what the byb, newspaper sellers sell them for.

I can test my dogs until I am blue in the face, but well over half of the calls I screen are looking for the best price.

Daisy's Mom
9th August 2009, 03:23 PM
I agree with you to a very large extent, Bruce. You make a good point. If we love the breed so much, then we should put our money where our mouth is.

There is one additional point I might make, though. By paying $2000 + for a pet puppy with a restricted registration that I can never breed or show(although I don't want to), and promised to spay, I feel like I am supporting the efforts of the ethical breeder I chose in their breeding efforts, including scans, etc. I've had many people express disbelief that I paid that much for a puppy for the privilege of being told what I can and can't do with her. I try to explain to these people about the health problems in the breed, the importance of careful breeding, research, etc., but they look at me like I've lost my mind.

Please understand that I'm not complaining about paying that much, given the cost of scans, testing, etc., but I think some recognition is due to the pet buyers who try to do the right thing by selecting ethical breeders, given the temptation of lower cost puppies. (Of course, I was trying to be self-protecting in the long run, hoping that buying from an ethical breeder would save me heartache and money on health concerns in the future. But many people are too short-sighted to look at it that way.)

It's the people out there who are paying BYBs and puppy mills (either directly or indirectly) for puppies who are not only supporting the wrong people, but are doing more damage (and cruelty) to the breed than anything else. It is almost certain those folks are not only not donating to research, but they are also actively harming the breed. So there are pet buyers and then there are pet buyers...

In the vet the other day, I met a nice lady who was talking to me about Daisy and I mentioned that she was spayed. She said "Why in the world wouldn't you breed her?!" I explained the restricted registration, health problems, etc. She then told me that her daughter had bought a Cavalier girl and was planning on buying a male at some point and having a couple of litters to get her money back from buying the dogs. I bit my tongue but did mention that you have to be very careful in selecting dogs to breed that do not pass on very serious health problems, etc., but it was kind of like talking to the wall. She then said "Well, she just wants to have one or two litters." Talk then turned to rescue and my fostering activities and she asked if her daughter could get a male through rescue to breed!! I said "Absolutely not, they are neutered before they leave rescue just for that reason!" I'm sure she will buy a male somewhere and have the litters, and someone will buy them and probably try to do the same thing. Oops, I'm getting off track here....

Again, I'm not arguing with your point because I do think it's valid, but I thought I'd point out that some pet buyers are in fact trying to do something about the problem through the prices they pay to breeders they trust.

ETA: After I posted this, your second post popped up, so I see that you are recognizing that concerned pet buyers shouldn't be classifed the same way as pet buyers who buy only on price.

Bruce H
9th August 2009, 03:46 PM
OK I've calmed down a bit now. Sorry about the meltdown. My post was directed at those who seem to think it's all the breeders responsibilty and then donate nothing to research. I know that a lot of you do donate toward research and to those who DO donate to research, thank you for that from the bottom of my heart. You and the breeders that do the testing, study the lines, etc. are the people who are going to be the ones who solve the problems this breed has.

But I also have to say I am deeply sadened by the division that appears to have come between pet people and breeders. There are things that have been said on both sides that that probably should not have been said. Including my generalized meltdown :( I sincerely hope that someday that can change and we can all work together to help out our breed.

Sandy: if only half your calls are looking for best price and don't know/care about testing, then you're doing better than we are.

harleyfarley
9th August 2009, 03:52 PM
I also disagree with you Bruce, it doesnt matter how much money (and i have sent my own dogs scan for research) i send to the research it wont make some breeders apply to the rules set out by the researchers. For instance the new breeding protocol being set up by the animal trust which means the database will tell breeders which dogs would be best bred with which bitches to secure the best chance of avoiding the genes carrying sm and other problems has not been greatfully received, with some breeders refusing to apply. So thanks for all the research animal health trust but they arnt interested so what a waste of my hard earned cash that was, tell me Bruce what else can we do.

WoodHaven
9th August 2009, 03:58 PM
I've averaged one puppy call a day for the month of August. Five of them, the end all be all was price.
They couldn't afford a 'show dog', they just wanted a pet. No one would ever pay that much for a DOG... How are we suppose to come up with that much money-- do you take monthly installments? I think 3 asked first for heart testing. No one mentioned SM. I don't have any pups and haven't for a long time, so I just send them to someone who might.

WoodHaven
9th August 2009, 04:07 PM
I also disagree with you Bruce, it doesnt matter how much money (and i have sent my own dogs scan for research) i send to the research it wont make some breeders apply to the rules set out by the researchers. For instance the new breeding protocol being set up by the animal trust which means the database will tell breeders which dogs would be best bred with which bitches to secure the best chance of avoiding the genes carrying sm and other problems has not been greatfully received, with some breeders refusing to apply. So thanks for all the research animal health trust but they arnt interested so what a waste of my hard earned cash that was, tell me Bruce what else can we do.

ARE you going to guarantee this breeding protocol? ARE you going to take care of all the pups that have SM if you force breeders to do it YOUR way?? I just wonder who I can SUE if this too causes more issues than it solves.?. People seem to think there are hard and fast rules for inheritance-- there are not.
The dumbest statement I've seen so far was "All breeders have to do is follow the protocol and all these issues will go away-- or at least become less".

Bruce H
9th August 2009, 04:16 PM
I also disagree with you Bruce, it doesnt matter how much money (and i have sent my own dogs scan for research) i send to the research it wont make some breeders apply to the rules set out by the researchers. For instance the new breeding protocol being set up by the animal trust which means the database will tell breeders which dogs would be best bred with which bitches to secure the best chance of avoiding the genes carrying sm and other problems has not been greatfully received, with some breeders refusing to apply. So thanks for all the research animal health trust but they arnt interested so what a waste of my hard earned cash that was, tell me Bruce what else can we do.

First off, thank you soooooo much for the money you have donated to research. I'm sorry you feel it was a waste of money; I don't. You contributed to future of the breed, not much more you can do. And you're right, some breeders won't adhere to guidelines or anything even close. But some will. Just like some people will never contribute money for research that may be the salvation of this breed, but some will.

WoodHaven
9th August 2009, 04:25 PM
First off, thank you soooooo much for the money you have donated to research. I'm sorry you feel it was a waste of money; I don't. You contributed to future of the breed, not much more you can do. And you're right, some breeders won't adhere to guidelines or anything even close. But some will. Just like some people will never contribute money for research that may be the salvation of this breed, but some will.

IF modes of inheritance was easy, OR if monetary donations the easy fix-- MDA would be a thing of the past for humans. Does anyone know how many millions (has to be billions by now) have been used for this ONE HUMAN disease alone?
Bottom line is breeders don't want to breed ill dogs-- can we agree on that?? Or aren't we even this far along in talking.

Margaret C
9th August 2009, 04:43 PM
ARE you going to guarantee this breeding protocol? ARE you going to take care of all the pups that have SM if you force breeders to do it YOUR way?? I just wonder who I can SUE if this too causes more issues than it solves.?. People seem to think there are hard and fast rules for inheritance-- there are not.
The dumbest statement I've seen so far was "All breeders have to do is follow the protocol and all these issues will go away-- or at least become less".

First I would like to make it clear that when I write I am usually referring to the UK breeders. They are the people I know.

I realise that it is very expensive for breeders in America & Canada to scan, but I'm afraid I do not accept that is a reason for them to do nothing about a problem that is affecting cavaliers worldwide.

Nobody can guarantee the SM breeding guidelines, they are an attempt to help breeders but they are not proven.
They never will be proven if breeders do not apply them in their entirety.

You appear to think that following the guidelines will result in even more SM puppies being born? Why should that happen?

As these guidelines ask for young cavaliers with symptomatic SM to be removed from breeding programmes, and older SM affected dogs with no symptoms to be mated only to a cavalier without SM, I do not see how it can do anything but improve the situation.

Breeding away from the condition by knowing whether your cavaliers are affected or not is surely a reasonable course to take?

If you do not think following the guidelines will help then what would you do to stop the spread of SM through the breed?

Karlin
9th August 2009, 04:47 PM
Excellent points on the issue of the cost of dogs, from different angles.

But the argument of cost is to my mind, a red herring in the context of research and really has little to do with whether breeders need to do what is right and support rescuing their own breed.

In fact the exact same arguments about pet buyers being unwilling to pay for show-breeder puppies have been made for years, dare I say decades, before SM was an issue and it's a constant recurring theme on breeder-related discussion lists. It has always been the case that only a small pool of puppy buyers is willing to pay the premium of a dog from a show breeder much less a show breeder that does health testing and breeds towards health and therefore may ask for slightly more again (I have solidly supported buying from such since the start of this board). There are always going to be a majority of buyers who just want a dog. They don't care about or know enough about health issues. It is also a fact that show breeders could not remotely supply the demand for any breed and there will therefore always be commercial breeders, and BYBs. That doesn't mean breeders give up on a focus on health.

There's also a massive recession at the moment and that is going to make people less inclined to buy a more expensive dog. I know some here have saved for months and years just to buy a single cavalier and now is probably not the time they will feel is right to spend on what is essentially a luxury. The argument that puppy sales had stalled due to the recession also was made by several breeders in the UK and US on the breeder-oriented lists over a year ago, with not a mention made of costs added on from health testing being an issue.

And cost is very relative. UK and US breeders have argued for years on why North American cavaliers are two to three times as much as UK show-bred dogs. I could right now purchase a puppy from two A parents from several UK show breeders for approximately half to a third of the AVERAGE price of a North American pet quality cavalier from a show breeder. Why this is so (and it isn't the cost of scanning being cheaper alone as the difference is there regardless of whether breeders scan or not) I leave to the breeders to debate.

That said I also know of scanning breeders with waiting lists of buyers more than a year or two long (depending on how many puppies they breed). Many buyers are willing to pay for supporting health. But there's a BIG problem with such informed, interested buyers being able to find breeders, because there are NO club listings of scanning breeders, and NO comprehensive open registries in any of the countries with the largest CKCS breeder clubs. Private enquiries to club members in charge of puppy referrals by puppy buyers has revealed many denigrate the practice of scanning, underlining that perhaps it is the club's and its officers' attitudes that undercut those who do try to make a difference in this way and encourage 'paying less' to other club breeders? Help in finding scanning breeders is also one of the main private questions I am asked -- literally every month many times -- but breeders on the L-list and CavalierChat regularly refuse to even contemplate offering such a service for buyers, and screech that no one else should offer such a list, even privately. :sl*p:

That leaves a lot of potential buyers with NO PLACE to connect to breeders who are doing the tests 0f whatever sort that they'd like to see.

As we all know, there are plenty of buyers who don't ask for such tests, so why do breeders feel such a list would be a problem? Surely that can defend their own choices on which tests they choose to do, or not testing at all, to buyers? Or do they prefer those choices to remain hidden? As a consumer, you'd get more information if you were buying a mattress than a puppy.

If the clubs and breeders want more funding support from pet buyers then


they need to take the time to talk to buyers individually on health issues (which some do and many do not or deliberately avoid), they need to be clear to buyers about what testing tools are out there and what buyers should be looking for (no club website I have seen and few breeder websites make this clear)

they need to encourage openness, especially with projects like the EBVs, and have transparent health registries of the sort breeder Anne Eckersley has been championing in the US and which was the initial goal of some of the UK initiatives before they were watered down (scan listings don't indicate grades or results; the healthy hearts list for years has allowed vet-checked dogs to qualify despite the longtime advice of their own club cardiologist and evidence from all international research)

they need to lead by example and openly support research and USE the advice and protocols they get, not bury the results (eg the report from the North Carolina research in the US) or ignore the protocols completely or selectively

they need to work together as a club with a large supportive membership that will USE such services, to work out their own low cost schemes. Surely there is not such a gross difference between the UK and US (with all its research vet schools and hospitals!) to work out similar schemes.

Margaret C
9th August 2009, 04:56 PM
I am sorry Margaret, but here in the USA-- the bottom line with puppy buyers seems to be $$$. They don't care about testing. They want a cute puppy to take care of and I've been called crazy that "when" I do have pups I Won't sell them for what the byb, newspaper sellers sell them for.

I can test my dogs until I am blue in the face, but well over half of the calls I screen are looking for the best price.

There will always be some people that want a bargain, whatever it is they are buying. It is the same in the UK, but that is not a reason to stop trying.
Education is the key, and that includes breeders like you telling pet buyers what responsible people do to try and produce healthy beautiful puppies.

Perhaps things will change gradually. I have started getting emails from people in the USA that want to know where they can find breeders that health test their cavaliers.

Karlin
9th August 2009, 05:11 PM
I think we can all agree that caring breeders want to breed healthy dogs and will recognise the time and financial effort this takes and support the steps necessary to do so or switch to a breed where these issues are not as difficult as in cavaliers, and caring buyers will only buy from those breeders. That is what I would like to see. :)

On what pet buyers do toward's research: I'd like to highlight that a single pet owner in Canada, Sandy Smith, contributed $9,500 through her For the Love of Ollie (http://www.fortheloveofollie.com/) fund to have 19 over-6-year-old cavaliers scanned in Canada... meanwhile, the Canadian Club paid for 3 to be scanned for the same research project.

This is critical research -- scans from older dogs are amongst the most valuable in a progressive disease like SM.

It isn't that the club's support isn't appreciated, but if a complaint is being made that pet owners don't contribute enough -- in fact, sometimes they contribute far more than national clubs to key research projects. What a difference to this research it would have made if the Canadian Club (or any club) had vowed to match the funding they took from a single pet owner for this project and enabled another 19 cavaliers to be scanned?

chloe92us
9th August 2009, 06:46 PM
Sandy- tomorrow when you get your "call of the day", when they ask the price, don't answer. Instead say "before we talk price, I want to tell you about the two main health issues in Cavaliers. MVD, which could potentially kill a Cavalier by it's 7th birthday and virtually ALL Cavaliers will be affected by this, and SM, which could squeeze your Cavalier's brain out of it's skull and cause a life of pain. If you are looking only at price, the puppy you buy will not have tested parents. Do your research on the breed- this is NOT a breed for beginners or the weak at heart. Once you do, call me back and I'll tell you my price."

chloe92us
9th August 2009, 06:52 PM
Bruce- It's good to hear from you! I stated this in another thread:

Quote: "Very interesting research...it's amazing how quickly researchers are working to help the Cavalier! There is light at the end of the tunnel...maybe."

I 100% agree that saving the Cavalier breed comes down to RESEARCH. But without samples, there is no research. Samples come from breeders.

Margaret C
9th August 2009, 07:12 PM
Bottom line is breeders don't want to breed ill dogs-- can we agree on that?? Or aren't we even this far along in talking.

I don't think anyone would disagree with this.
But let's face it, even puppy farmers would not want to breed ill dogs, it is after all inconvenient when buyers kick up a fuss.

Good breeders would surely do everything in their power to avoid breeding ill dogs. If researchers are suggesting ways that may help to make that possible, why would they ignore their recommendations?

Karlin
9th August 2009, 07:43 PM
this is NOT a breed for beginners or the weak at heart.

I can understand your feelings but think that would be a pretty harsh assessment and a bit unfair to the breed and to owners. :)

I would not for example say either to prospective owners of my Irish rescue dogs and having friends with other breeds with some severe breed-related problems, and others with mixes that have had severe and costly problems... I think dog ownership full stop is not for the weak at heart or the uninformed -- too many get a dog expecting it to be reliable in health and behaviour and a cheap proposition. Both are dependent to some degree on the owner and to some degree on the healthful breeding and consistent temperament that comes only from a responsible, knowledgeable breeder.

What I tell prospective owners is about the breed including its health issues. I say that many, most actually, purebred dogs have their distinct breed related health issues. Other breeds also have devastating problems -- generally, the most popular breeds as they get overbred, popular sire syndrome can be rife, and there's money to be made off of puppies so fast and indifferent, cheap breeding brings its own financial rewards for the unscrupulous.

So the puppy buyer can best support the breed and healthy dogs by supporting breeders that prioritise health. But buyers need to understand there are no strict guarantees.

However there are definite research results showing that following MVD and SM guidelines does produce healthier dogs. Established research was the basis of the MVD protocol over a decade ago from leading international cardiologists asked by the breed clubs to provide such a guideline, and with SM this has been reported on at two conferences now and while there are obviously going to be exceptions (that is simply statistical fact), in breedings over several generations, A cavaliers are producing the most A offspring, and are related to more A dogs in their near family than D or F dogs. D and F dogs have as far as I have followed this research, produced NO A offspring (recall an A means they MUST be 2.5 years old at their scan for grading, not a puppy or younger dog!). Why some breeders claim the SM suggested breeding guidelines 'don't work' when there is definite and ongoing evidence that this type of careful breeding DOES work is beyond me. Then, the same people who argue that over 1000 scanned dogs isn't an adequate sample and find fault with all the research samples so far, also are those arguing that a single case they have 'heard about' of an SM offspring from from AxA mating is enough to make the guidelines meaningless. :rolleyes: Even though no researcher who actually validates scans is aware of such offspring, and the additional concern that many -- MOST! -- breeders are assuming grades based on their own readings of scans, and are also assuming As in dogs that are still *too young* to be given a grade. So no one actually knows if such a mating pair were even As to start with.

Anyway: I think cavaliers are a wonderful breed but owners need to be aware of the possible problems. And breeders know *most* callers will go away once they hear the price of a show breeder bred dog anyway (this has always been the case!) -- surely the key is to have a club referral point to breeders who scan, for the buyer who already knows this is a priority, and let those dedicated parties more easily find each other?

tara
9th August 2009, 08:43 PM
I'm glad you spoke up Bruce. I whole heartedly agree that to put the responsibility of solving health problems solely on breeders is just not practical, at least in the vast United States. The U.S. consumer is a different "breed." We want exactly what we want (color, gender, age), we want it quickly (most not willing to launch an exhaustive puppy search or wait months / years for a dog) and at the lowest possible price. I'm not defending this, just stating fact. We are also attracted by smarmy sales practices, something with which BYB's and larger commercial operations are quite accomplished.

I think an important component in improving the cavalier breed (or the health of any breed) is EDUCATION OF POTENTIAL PUPPY BUYERS. We've started to see this with recent campaigns sheeding light on puppy mills and pet store animals. The average American has no idea what goes on in poor breeding facilities, and they have no idea why a dog from a reputable breeder legitimately costs what it does. What about good old fashioned marketing -- commercials, etc. to spread the word as to appropriate avenues to acquire a pet?

I worry that, without consumer education, good breeders will be forced out of the equation -- leaving only commercial operations to supply our nation's pet demand.

tupup
9th August 2009, 08:47 PM
Hi Bruce,
Might i just chime in with my opinion here,you may not see as relevant however in my very small business i am expected to do all/any research on for example a new product,if i need to attend a seminar then I pay for it etc i do not however expect my customers to educate themselves & then tell me how to do my job when they arrive & it is MY JOB to make the decisions on best practise,that is what my customers are paying me for in the first place! My expertise & experience.
That said there are cheaper places my customers could go to,that is their choice-in my opinion more fool them!There will always be those who want something for nothing.I pride myself in my work & that is what i would like from breeders- leading proudly from the front,shouting for all to hear that they have done everything in their power to provide the best.
Nor do i publicly denounce my customers as "stupid" so yes more work is indeed needed to mend bridges!
I do agree there are many who just want a puppy NOW with no thought to important issues,having recently got a puppy myself i was stopped by a couple,the lady saying she wanted one & the man actually said to me "Can you get me a puppy,ive got the money now if you can get me a puppy"!!!!!!!! I began to explain the health issues of the breed & saw them quickly glaze over-more fool them!

frecklesmom
9th August 2009, 10:32 PM
If there was a clearing house where reputable puppy/dog buyers could be linked with reputable breeders would that not be outstanding. As it is now, both sides become worn out by seekers who want cheap or providers who can't see the way toward doing their best.



even puppy farmers would not want to breed ill dogs


how I wish this were true but it is far from the truth hear in the US. "Blind,lame stud can still deliver" shout the auctioneers and worn out bitches at 4 yrs are still sought for more service. One female that I was honored to pull this year has MVD grade6, cancer, bad patellas,few teeth now and her sister, also pulled, has MVD grade4 and a belly full of adhesions thanks to butchery C-sections by non-vets. They live a good life now but it's hard to think about their suffering without tears-they are so loving. Generally speaking, puppy mill owners have little care for health unless it would affect their whole kennel and destroy their profits. Maybe the puppy farmers in the UK are better-I hope so.

WoodHaven
9th August 2009, 10:45 PM
If there was a clearing house where reputable puppy/dog buyers could be linked with reputable breeders would that not be outstanding. As it is now, both sides become worn out by seekers who want cheap or providers who can't see the way toward doing their best.



how I wish this were true but it is far from the truth hear in the US. "Blind,lame stud can still deliver" shout the auctioneers and worn out bitches at 4 yrs are still sought for more service. One female that I was honored to pull this year has MVD grade6, cancer, bad patellas,few teeth now and her sister, also pulled, has MVD grade4 and a belly full of adhesions thanks to butchery C-sections by non-vets. They live a good life now but it's hard to think about their suffering without tears-they are so loving. Generally speaking, puppy mill owners have little care for health unless it would affect their whole kennel and destroy their profits. Maybe the puppy farmers in the UK are better-I hope so.

No, I will back whoever said that commercial puppy breeders don't want to breed ill puppies-- THEY DON'T get paid for ill puppies. If you only get 150.00-200.00 per 6-8 week old pup, they better be ok when they hit the broker or they get rejected.
AND just like commercial dairies, commercial puppy breeders come in good, bad and horrid. We have laws against the bad and horrid. Laws that should make the bad better and the horrid disappear, but there isn't enough support to get it done.

tupup
10th August 2009, 02:39 PM
Hi Sandy,
What would be a good plan to eradicate the bad & horrid commercial breeders? If anyone has any ideas then there would be overwhelming support here:)

Jay
10th August 2009, 03:48 PM
I personally think it is time to require the inspectors to do their jobs. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that these mills are not providing even the minimal basic care for their "stock". It really upsets me when I read stories about how some of the most horrific mills have "just recently been inspected" and found to be in compliance with animal welfare laws. There are too few inspectors and I wouldn't be surprised if some are paid off for a decent report. I would love to see more local control but unfortunately in these economic times, I am afraid that poor mill dogs are at the bottom of a very long list. People need to keep the plight of these animals and the expense and heartache that consumers experience when they get a sick puppy in the fore front of the news and demand that the government agency that inspects these mills do their job.
J.

Karlin
10th August 2009, 04:56 PM
Puppy farmers in the UK and Ireland are as horrific.

The broader problem though is that as there are no requirements for testing to breed dogs, there's absolutely no way of mandating that a dog with a bad heart, cancer, curly coat, SM, or whatever NOT be bred.

If commercial breeders were to be expected to health test and provide certs, then all breeders should have to do this. If club breeders aren't cardiac testing both parents and following the MVD protocol theyare no better than puppy farmers and millers. As a bit of research, within 10 minutes I found a whole slew of underage dogs recently bred by a prominent and influential breeder in the UK, some of the dams below the CKCS Club ethics guideline age of 16 months (which of course doesn't even pay lip service to the MVD protocol); and sires bred as young as 8 months old. This is not 20 years ago; this is just in the past couple of years. This is not a puppy farmer or non-club member; this is a 'respected' club member. All I had to do was a pedigree search using the database at worldpedigrees.com and randomly select a couple of dogs from the 100+ listed of her breeding to produce evidence of this person not caring a jot about health protocols.

This is why I and many others feel mandatory testing is necessary as a national policy, not just a KC or breed club mandated policy. As the UK Club Chairwoman has said herself, voluntary compliance with health guidelines (and for the breeder above, even compliance with club ethics guidelines) is more or less a nonsense for too many breeders, making health protocols meaningless and directly leading to the current situation with MVD in the UK: NO change in rates of MVD in over 15 years according to the club's own cardiologist.

Poor breeding practice that produces disease and shortens lives is to my mind as large and many would argue, a far larger welfare and cruelty issue than the state of a kennel. It isn;t separate from puppy farming but is part of the puppy farming issue. But when a prominent club breeder so blatantly disregards health protocols and even ethics policies of the national club, what, morally, exactly is the difference between a puppy farmer and a high-standing club breeder? The exploitation and disregard for suffering all in the name of personal and financial gain is exactly the same.

I expect quite a few here have dogs of this breeder's breeding in their dog's pedigrees.

WoodHaven
10th August 2009, 05:14 PM
Puppy farmers in the UK and Ireland are as horrific.

The broader problem though is that as there are no requirements for testing to breed dogs, there's absolutely no way of mandating that a dog with a bad heart, cancer, curly coat, SM, or whatever NOT be bred.

If commercial breeders were to be expected to health test and provide certs, then all breeders should have to do this. If club breeders aren't cardiac testing both parents and following the MVD protocol theyare no better than puppy farmers and millers. As a bit of research, within 10 minutes I found a whole slew of underage dogs recently bred by a prominent and influential breeder in the UK, some of the dams below the CKCS Club ethics guideline age of 16 months (which of course doesn't even pay lip service to the MVD protocol); and sires bred as young as 8 months old. This is not 20 years ago; this is just in the past couple of years. This is not a puppy farmer or non-club member; this is a 'respected' club member. All I had to do was a pedigree search using the database at worldpedigrees.com and randomly select a couple of dogs from the 100+ listed of her breeding to produce evidence of this person not caring a jot about health protocols.

This is why I and many others feel mandatory testing is necessary as a national policy, not just a KC or breed club mandated policy. As the UK Club Chairwoman has said herself, voluntary compliance with health guidelines (and for the breeder above, even compliance with club ethics guidelines) is more or less a nonsense for too many breeders, making health protocols meaningless and directly leading to the current situation with MVD in the UK: NO change in rates of MVD in over 15 years according to the club's own cardiologist.

Poor breeding practice that produces disease and shortens lives is to my mind as large and many would argue, a far larger welfare and cruelty issue than the state of a kennel. It isn;t separate from puppy farming but is part of the puppy farming issue. But when a prominent club breeder so blatantly disregards health protocols and even ethics policies of the national club, what, morally, exactly is the difference between a puppy farmer and a high-standing club breeder? The exploitation and disregard for suffering all in the name of personal and financial gain is exactly the same.

I expect quite a few here have dogs of this breeder's breeding in their dog's pedigrees.

At least here-- there are no MANDATES of testing for the breeding of ANY animal-- not even HUMANS.

We are trying to hit too many things here at once. We had been talking about BAD commercial who keep ill dams and sires -- do their own c-sections and the dogs live with rot and death all the days of their reproductive lives.
Then You try to equate THAT to breeding a 16 month old (which could have been an oops). Which wouldn't be an ethic violation here.

Lynn
11th August 2009, 03:54 PM
Education for the entire Cavalier community is imperative. 2 years ago before I adopted Nora from Lucky Star, I contacted another Cavalier Rescue (part of a major national club) and the woman I spoke with was a director of the club....this woman stated that 'SM was NOT an issue' and was 'just hype' and basically cut me off from talking about it when I mentioned it. In my opinion, if people in 'power' in the clubs and organizations are uninformed and in denial, the struggle to get research funding will be near impossible. I believe that those club directors could make a difference in providing more research funding as they are the ones who can really bring the Cavalier Community together.

WoodHaven
11th August 2009, 04:14 PM
Education for the entire Cavalier community is imperative. 2 years ago before I adopted Nora from Lucky Star, I contacted another Cavalier Rescue (part of a major national club) and the woman I spoke with was a director of the club....this woman stated that 'SM was NOT an issue' and was 'just hype' and basically cut me off from talking about it when I mentioned it. In my opinion, if people in 'power' in the clubs and organizations are uninformed and in denial, the struggle to get research funding will be near impossible. I believe that those club directors could make a difference in providing more research funding as they are the ones who can really bring the Cavalier Community together.

I don't know what national rescue you are referring to-- but I can't imagine our club managing director EVER saying that SM was hype.

And I don't know how a club rescue director could have provide more research funding?? The monies earmarked for rescues MUST be used as directed.

Karlin
11th August 2009, 07:47 PM
I think for fundraising, Lynn means club directors overall, not the rescue coordinators?

Maybe there's a problem when there are huge rescue funds that remain untapped while clubs don't or won'talso fundraise at a similar scale for diseases that threaten to wipe out the breed as we now know it. And the irony is that very large rescue funds remain unused while people are still encouraged to donate.

Though this point infuriated breeders before I do know what I am talking about: I have been given figures directly from people involved at rescue committee level or senior committee level in clubs in the UK and US, and know for a fact that 5 figure sums -- some at the HIGH end of 5 figures -- are sitting in some UK and US regional club rescue accounts. Yet I know of a case where rescue has argued that dogs with basic health issues (not complicated ones) be put down rather than given vet care 'because it is so expensive' or to leave new owners to maybe, or maybe not, pay for needed one-off treatments, even as they sat atop an absolutely enormous rescue nest egg (gee -- what ARE they planning to do with it, if not spend it on rescue cases? :sl*p:). By the way in the UK any member has the right to request accounts from club rescue.

I'd suggest regional club members ask for verified accounts and see what their own clubs have in their rescue accounts. What I say can be easily confirmed. I think some people would be very taken aback at the money just sitting out there, hardly dipped into for rescue. At the same time I know there are very hard working regional and national rescues that operate at a loss or break even as well -- I am not saying ALL but there are SOME with vast sums in rescue.

Those sums are dozens of times the size of entire amounts ever donated towards, say, SM research or underwriting MRIs.

The ability to fundraise towards rescue is proof that a determined club can raise funds for important causes. On the other hand, should not clubs need to account for the rescue funds on a quarterly basis and if money stockpiles up to 5 figures and there's no indication the money is being depleted by rescue demands, perhaps money needs to be reallocated or rescue fundraising should be capped for a time with further energies going to health research and breeder support (eg for part funding MRIs or at least stud MRIs?).

WoodHaven
11th August 2009, 08:59 PM
Statements like this don't help any rescue. At any one time we can have 60 or more dogs in our rescue. Bills are constantly being paid and money is constantly coming in through donations. Our average expenses per cavalier are over 500.00-- our average donation is under 400.00. So we do fundraisers at every opportunity. Rescue is only possible through our wonderful fosters (who pay for food, toys, treats and gas to move these guys) and wonderful people who give money so we can keep getting the patellas fixed and heartworm cured. Please don't undermine what has been successful.

Lynn
11th August 2009, 09:22 PM
I meant that the people who are in positions of power can rally their members to start fundraising drives to HELP fund more research and provide education. In no way shape or form did I suggest or imply anything other. TWO Years ago I talked with a person who was and still IS in charge of approving the adoption of Cavaliers in this national rescue in her district. This is what SHE said to me....and it floored me. My thought was that if THIS woman is one of the top ppl in that organization, there needs to be better education.


Flaming at each other is not going to solve any problems. Twisting people's words around to fit into your own issues/gripes is not going to help either. The one reason I have been mostly silent for a year is EXACTLY for this reason. I thought I could add something to the discussion, but apparently not.

EddyAnne
11th August 2009, 09:38 PM
At least here-- there are no MANDATES of testing for the breeding of ANY animal-- not even HUMANS.

That may be the case where you are in this world but where I am the following government new law applies and from this address.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/poctaa1986360/s15c.html

Victorian Consolidated Legislation

Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1986 - SECT 15C
Breeding of animals with heritable defects

15C. Breeding of animals with heritable defects

(1) A person must not, intentionally or recklessly, allow an animal with a heritable defect to breed.

Penalty: 60 penalty units, in the case of a natural person. 300 penalty units, in the case of a body corporate.

(2) A person must not sell or dispose of an animal with a heritable defect, if the person knows or is reckless as to whether the animal has a heritable defect, unless the person who sells or disposes of the animal advises the person to whom the animal is sold or disposed of (before the sale or disposal) that the animal has the heritable defect.

Penalty: 60 penalty units, in the case of a natural person. 300 penalty units, in the case of a body corporate.

(3) In this section-
heritable defect, in relation to a species of animal set out in Column 1 of the Table in the Schedule, means a heritable defect that is known to cause the disease set out opposite the species of animal in Column 2 of the Table in the Schedule.
.

WoodHaven
11th August 2009, 10:06 PM
All animals have heritable defects. Some are dominant, some recessive. Good gravy, does that mean you can't breed a dog with a eye fold at birth??

EddyAnne
11th August 2009, 11:06 PM
All animals have heritable defects. Some are dominant, some recessive. Good gravy, does that mean you can't breed a dog with a eye fold at birth??
Eye Folds are NOT listed in the Act's Table, presently these are Tabled - Von Willebrands disease (vWD), Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA), Neuronal Ceroid Lipofuscinosis (NCL), Hereditary Cataract (HC), Collie Eye Anomaly (CEA). The Act is new and to be tested where it appears there is a "grace period", and as it exists in time more heritable defects could possibly be added, particularly if a DNA test exists for the heritable defect.

Our Kennel Club called DogsVictoria and VCA has arranged Seminars for any breed that could be affected by the above mentioned Tabled Heritable Defects. A representative from the Bureau of Animal Welfare will attend the Seminars to explain to breeders and to clubs about the new laws and the Code of Practice that has been made available by the Bureau of Animal Welfare, and how breeders and clubs can best work with it. Maybe Seminars might be similarly being arranged for commercial breeders and pet shops as the Act would similarly apply to them, plus also to backyard breeders. Anyway this PDF document mentions Seminars that have already been arranged, have a read via this address.
http://www.vca.org.au/assets/pdf/nov-2009-seminars%20_3_.pdf
.

frecklesmom
11th August 2009, 11:28 PM
Certainly those persons elected to lead their Club have the influence to lead their members into supporting research for the CKCS,i.e. if the Club is active. The leaders are also those who need to bring the latest information re: the breed to the attention of their members. Seems to me this should be just basic in a Breed Club.

WoodHaven
11th August 2009, 11:45 PM
Certainly those persons elected to lead their Club have the influence to lead their members into supporting research for the CKCS,i.e. if the Club is active. The leaders are also those who need to bring the latest information re: the breed to the attention of their members. Seems to me this should be just basic in a Breed Club.

Do you or have you belonged to a breed club-- OR any AKC club?

EddyAnne
12th August 2009, 12:28 AM
I've seen it where Clubs and registered breeders had a golden opportunity to influence and to lead, but after years where things tended to appear the same as they always have been then people gradually turned towards Politicians and the Animal Welfare Act. Maybe that might be a good thing as Government Legislation concerning Heritable Defects could be applied to ALL including Commercial Breeders, Backyard Breeders and even Pet Shops.
.

Karlin
12th August 2009, 12:45 AM
I have similar costs in rescue, Sandy. As with remaining quiet on health or rescue issues so as not to embarrass/annoy the clubs/breeders/national organisations, or because it makes things awkward for rescue (I do not believe it does) -- I don't think it helps rescue efforts to hide away the facts of how club-raised funds -- donated in good faith by many club and non-club people -- are in some cases NOT spent on rescue by several club rescue groups. It is ironic to me that close to $100,000 is sitting in some rescue accounts -- what are they doing with this money? What do they intend to do with it? -- while health initiatives are so poorly funded. A lot of people see rescue as sacrosact and do not ask how much cash is there or require an explanation of how it is being spent. They need to start asking for total transparency from club rescue groups.

Given the example that I noted earlier -- that a single pet owner donated the funds to scan 19 cavaliers while the club paid for three... and as many many more such scans are needed (see the request on the UK CKCS Club site which is an international request, not just for UK dogs), and given that one of the US clubs has turned down proposals in the past to fund a large scale scanning research effort...one has to wonder where priorities lie and how money is being used, and whether if so much is raised towards 'rescue' work that isn't being done -- or at least, the funds intended for it are not being drawn down -- perhaps it is time to refocus effort on saving the breed as well as giving individual dogs a better life.

Not least because rescue and health issues with SM are going to be more and more intertwined. You, me and others in club or breed rescue are increasingly going to be trying to find homes for cavaliers with SM that will be a lot harder to place, and a much greater financial burden, than CKCS with MVD. They may not be placeable and treatment and diagnosis for a single dog will be beyond what rescue can handle, raising the issue of having to pts dogs or else, club and rescue members taking personal responsibility for them. SM is going to build to a serious crisis in rescue. Addressing the health issues therefore has got to be a funding priority within the clubs, for this and many other reasons.

WoodHaven
12th August 2009, 01:48 AM
I have similar costs in rescue, Sandy. As with remaining quiet on health issues so as not to embarrass/annoy the clubs/breeders/national organisations, I don't think it helps rescue efforts to hide away the facts of how club-raised funds -- donated in good faith by many club and non-club people -- are NOT spent on rescue by several club rescue groups. It is ironic to me that close to $100,000 is sitting in some rescue accounts -- what are they doing with this money? What do they intend to do with it? All I am saying is a lot of people see rescue as sacrosact and do not ask how much cash is there or require an explanation of how it is being spent. They need to start asking for total transparency from club rescue groups.

Given the example that I noted earlier -- that a single pet owner donated the funds to scan 19 cavaliers while the club paid for three... and as many many more are needed (see the request on the UK CKCS Club site which is an international request, not just for UK dogs), and given that one of the US clubs has turned down proposals in the past to fund a large scale scanning research effort...one has to wonder where priorities lie and how money is being used, and whether if so much is raised towards 'rescue' work that isn;t being done -- or at least the funds intended for it are not being drawn down -- perhaps it is time to refocus effort on saving the breed as well as giving individual dogs a better life.

Not least because rescue and health issues with SM are going to be more and more intertwined. You, me and others in club or breed rescue are increasingly going to be trying to find homes for cavaliers with SM that will be a lot harder to place, and a much greater financial burden, than CKCS with MVD. They may not be placeable and treatment and diagnosis for a single dog will be beyond what rescue can handle, raising the issue of having to pts dogs or else, club and rescue members taking personal responsibility for them. SM is going to build to a serious crisis in rescue. Addressing the health issues therefore has got to be a funding priority within the clubs, for this and many other reasons.

If this is true, it is news to me. (IF we have mega bucks in our rescue fund, someone please tell me). I am really getting tired of begging vets to give discounts, begging people to drive an hour or two one way etc... to get dogs to vets that are rescue friendly. I've never been told that any of our rescues has been turned down for help.
I've never been quiet about SM. I usually tick people off by talking about SM, my experiences with SM in dogs, My MRI's etc... I wouldn't have done 5 MRI's if I didn't want to do 'my' bit and I was thrilled when two people who have my pups also did MRI's to continue a long line of MRI clear dogs.

The cost of 19 Mri's here would be 21,000- 30,000 USD-- a bit much to ask for IMO.

HollyDolly
13th August 2009, 06:12 PM
Well, against my better judgement, Iíve decided to come out of hibernation and have a good old-fashioned meltdown.

What on earth makes some of you think that itís only up to the breeders to solve the Cavaliers problems?! Because thatís what Iím hearing here and elsewhere. In my opinion the solution is in research. And research costs money. Lots of money. How about instead of telling we breeders itís all up to us, you pet people (I hate that phrase, there has to be a better one)also take a little responsibility for the breed that you love so much. Take what you would spend to go out to eat for a month and donate it to research. Do that every year. A couple years ago I spearheaded a fundraiser for a specific research project on two of the Cavalier forums and a lot of people donated; to those people, I canít express in words how much I appreciated it. But what was notable was how many people in the combined membership didnít donate.

I know this is a little disjointed, but I wanted to say something before I changed my mind and didnít say anything. PLEASE try to bury the hatchet and help us breeders solve the health problems. Just pointing the finger at us will solve very little. Itís everyoneís responsibility, breeders canít do it alone, there's too few of us and too little money.

Having a few days away I have been catching up with some of the posts. This one certainly caught my eye and made me angry to say the least.
Yes research is important and yes if people ARE able to contribute not only in monetary terms but also supplying blood samples, swabs etc that in a ideal world would be wonderful.
I for one am tired of people saying it's in the hands of the general puppy buying public to contribute, on this forum alone there are many members who do contribute and I am livid that you come on this forum telling us what to do.
Perhaps your energies would be better spent telling the breeders who will not be partcipating in the EBV scheme, who refuse to follow the Cavalier Club guidelines, who do not supply blood samples, swabs etc and most importantly refuse to accept that SM is a problem in the breed that this is unacceptable and they must do it your way.

How I choose to help research is my business and I certainly do not like someone spouting that this is how I should spend my money.:swear:


Nanette

harleyfarley
13th August 2009, 06:17 PM
I for one am tired of people saying it's in the hands of the general puppy buying public to contribute, on this forum alone there are many members who do contribute and I am livid that you come on this forum telling us what to do.
Perhaps your energies would be better spent telling the breeders who will not be partcipating in the EBV scheme, who refuse to follow the Cavalier Club guidelines, who do not supply blood samples, swabs etc and most importantly refuse to accept that SM is a problem in the breed that this is unacceptable and they must do it your way.

How I choose to help research is my business and I certainly do not like someone spouting that this is how I should spend my money.:swear:


Nanette

well said Nanette, Why dont you do that Bruce?

ppotterfield
13th August 2009, 08:29 PM
Folks, we are all in this together -- there are good breeders and bad breeders, good "show" people and bad ones, good "pet" people and bad ones. We speak too often in generalizations and then others take offense even when we may not be speaking about them personally. The job of protecting this breed and improving its health is the responsibility of everyone -- breeders, show people and pet owners. Our roles are different, although there is clearly some overlap.

Breeders have the responsibility to constantly study and learn and to breed responsibly and ethically with the best interest of their bitch and the breed in mind and not just to make puppies. Unfortunately, if the tests necessary to make certain the puppies they breed have the best chance of being healthy are too expensive then perhaps they need to more selective about how often they breed while working to have the tests made more affordable. They also IMHO have the responsiblity of putting pressure on their fellow breeders to do likewise.

Show people have the responsibility to put the health of their individual dogs and the health of the breed before their own interests in winning and to refuse to work with (or be) breeders who do not have as their goal the sound improvement of the breed. If they have a dog at stud they have the responsiblity and obligation of full disclosure.

Pet owners have the responsibility to educate themselves before they buy and to refuse to purchase puppies from breeders who are not breeding responsibly and ethically. If it means they have to wait either until they have saved enough money or until a puppy from a responsible, ethical breeder is available, so be it.

Everyone -- breeders,show people, pet owners -- have the obligation to to educate the public -- all those people who stop them at dog shows, training classes, in park, at PetSmart or wherever, and say they want a dog just like that -- about the breed, the health concerns and the need to be careful before they buy or adopt. Yes, at times it seems like crying in the wind, but if enough people say it enough times it may start to make a difference.

Everyone -- breeders, show people, pet owners -- have the obligation to the extent they can to contribute to research efforts by donating DNA and/or making a monetary contribution whether it be $10.00 or $1000.00.

It all has to work together -- research, responsible breeding, educated purchases, committment by everyone to the breed. Pointing fingers and pitting breeders against pet owners will accomplish nothing.

JMHO

Karlin
13th August 2009, 08:37 PM
Thanks Phyllis, a very good post.

Cathy T
14th August 2009, 03:09 AM
Amen Phyllis!!! I couldn't have said it any better.

I think Bruce just gave us his perspective as a breeder and I respect his input and opinions.

chloe92us
14th August 2009, 12:45 PM
Well said Phyllis. There are good and bad in this world, including breeders and pet owners.

honeymonster
14th August 2009, 01:25 PM
Perhaps your energies would be better spent telling the breeders who will not be partcipating in the EBV scheme, who refuse to follow the Cavalier Club guidelines, who do not supply blood samples, swabs etc and most importantly refuse to accept that SM is a problem in the breed that this is unacceptable and they must do it your way.


Nanette

Nanette. I would like to find out who these breeders are and avoid them? How did you go about finding them? How do we find out who is blood testing, swabbing, refusing to accept SM is a problem, will not be participating in the EBV scheme? Honeymonster

Brian M
14th August 2009, 02:26 PM
Hi

Please search for your new Cavalier through the clubs and contacts from the breeders that you ask ,and then when you find the pup that you want prior to seeing it ask the breeder if its parents have a current heart certificate (Mum has had one done within the last 12 months and its clear regardless of her age and Dad also has a recent one showing he has no murmur if under 5 and only mild if over) and clear eye certificate also a recent MRI certificate with both parents declared Grade A.It sounds a hard task but there are puppies out there that meet those demands though not many and of course by asking these questions you are telling all the people you contact that these are the standards required and if not met you walk away and so by insisting on this to the breeding community that this is what us the pet owning people now require it will further encourage and pressure them into having all these ever so necessary tests done and of course help them in selling any pups. It is time consuming and could involve many phone calls and emails and when you eventually do find your pup possibly a journey of many miles and/or a wait of many months but it is the best way forward for us members of the pet community to help all our Cavaliers live longer ,happier and healthier lives.:) So please dont go out and buy the first puppy you find pls do your research and insist that these are the minimum recommendations that need to be met before you commit to your precious purchase.:)

honeymonster
14th August 2009, 03:11 PM
Thank you Brian. I will take on board what you say. It just seems that if there are breeders who fall into the category that Nanette describes it would save some emails, phonecalls etc if these people could be avoided.From Nanette's post I read that these types were known. That is why I asked how do you avoid them?

HollyDolly
14th August 2009, 03:36 PM
Nanette. I would like to find out who these breeders are and avoid them? How did you go about finding them? How do we find out who is blood testing, swabbing, refusing to accept SM is a problem, will not be participating in the EBV scheme? Honeymonster

Hello honeymonster.

My first port of call would be to speak to Margaret C, a member of this forum. She would be able to give you a list of Breeders who do follow the
Cavalier Clubs Guidelines and who do scan etc their breeding stock.
It would not be my intention to name or shame but hope that by following
Margaret C and Brian's advice you will be able to find a Cavalier that comes from responsible breeders.

I would just like to comment on the posts above Brian's. I whole heartedly agree with everything that Phyllis has written, and would not wish to be known as a them and us person. In an ideal world it would be so good to see breeders and pet owners unite but this never happened with the MVD problems in the breed which has now reached epidemic proportions and my own personal feelings are that SM will also affect as many Cavaliers as does MVD now.

I am listening if anyone can tell me how as pet owners we can turn the tables and unite with breeders.

Nanette

Bet
14th August 2009, 05:42 PM
Hollydolly,

I am wondering how to answer your Post ,it would be great as the saying goes if,us Cavalier Pet Folk could Sing from the Same Hymn Sheet as all the Cavalier Breeders, but here's the Rub, many of us have been mocked in the Past by some Cavalier Breeders, do we Forgive and Forget,especially when we have seen our Cherished Cavaliers die at an early age from MVD, and now the Suffering from SM, I just dont know.

If we could believe that all Cavalier Breeders were being Honest and Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding ,then we all might move forward to-gether,but until we have evidence of that, then it might still be a situation of us Cavalier Pet Owners not trusting all Cavalier Breeders.

Bet( Hargreaves)

Cathy T
14th August 2009, 10:45 PM
If we could believe that all Cavalier Breeders were being Honest and Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding ,then we all might move forward to-gether,but until we have evidence of that, then it might still be a situation of us Cavalier Pet Owners not trusting all Cavalier Breeders.



I have to admit....I take offense at this statement. Do not lump me, as a pet owner, into this statement. You cannot paint all breeders with one nasty paint brush. There are many great, wonderful and caring breeders out there whom you've have just made out to be evil because they are breeders. This is why breeder and "pet people" are having issues. It is not "us" against "them" and until we all "get" that this is a lose/lose situation for everyone. Must you continue to fuel the fire with this kind of statement??

tara
15th August 2009, 01:31 AM
Thank you Cathy T., for speaking on behalf of breeders here. I really dislike the "breeder bashing" that seems to be so popular these days. It truly gets us no where as far as promoting cavalier health. In fact, it's sort of shooting ourselves in the foot if we want to work with breeders to improve the state of the breed. If all breeders were as caring and meticulous in their breeding programs as those like Sandy and Bruce, then the US would be in a great place as far as providing healthy puppies for pet owners.

I've said it before, but I'm afraid that the good breeders may decide to throw in the towel if the wave of anti-breeder sentiment sweeps across the US. This is something I've heard from Holly's breeder (who personally facilitated and funded all health testing on Holly's parents that everyone here demands). Then we'll just have commercial operations and BYB's providing puppies -- because they never did give a rat's behind what anyone thinks of them.

And here's another thought -- if we're to doubt all breeder's programs, and US cavalier rescue is engaging in corrupt business practices, then where should we get our dogs? It's very easy and enticing to get wrapped up in a conspiracy sort of mentality, but it also pushes reasonable people out of the equation.

Bet
15th August 2009, 08:29 AM
Sorry if I have upset some Cavalier Breeders, but I am talking about some Cavalier Breeders here in Britain.

I don't know if there are Breed Supplements in America, but we do have them in Britain ,they are issued by the Kennel Club of all the Cavalier Registrations.

There are some Cavalier Breeders who are not abiding by the UK CKCS CLUB Breeding Guidelines for MVD.

Not waiting till the Cavaliers are 2.6 years of before Breeding from them.

Until this happens then what I Posted is what I mean .

Bet(Hargreaves)

Karlin
15th August 2009, 10:09 AM
I think a meticulous breeding programme is one that has to include MRI scanning -- or people should not be in the breed. If anyone is buying puppies, do NOT assume anyone has a meticulous health focused breeding programme unless you SEE the MRI scan results and the cardiologist certs and KNOW the breeder is doing both.

If they aren't scanning, then breeders have NO idea what the state of their dogs is and are simply breeding blind. Given how long it can take symptoms to begin to show, and given how few owners are willing to go back and tell their breeder or the person they bought their dog from that it has SM (I survey people on this and it is a tiny, tiny fraction especially if the breeder is nice and people don't want to 'disappoint' them), and given that vets will not do so as it is not their role to report back the health status to breeders, it is an utter nonsense for any breeder to say their lines have no SM because they have never heard of an affected dog.

At any rate I know of breeders who have posted this publicly for years and where I KNOW pet owners who have written to them about affected dogs of their breeding -- some of these people simply lie -- which in turn causes all the rest to come under criticism. Breeders should not be blaming pet owners' frustration on 'breeder bashing' but their own colleagues who have openly lied and whom pet owners know have lied; who deny SM in their lines, who deny SM is a problem... STILL... and who *don't MRI their own dogs, in some cases, not a SINGLE dog yet continue to breed. For that matter no group 'breeder bashes' more than breeders themselves -- just listen in on the L-list for any length of time and read the archives for proof or get involved in showing yourself. So I for one am really tired of this artificial division being drawn up, which is just a diversion away from the actual issues of SERIOUS HEALTH PROBLEMS, AND WHETHER PEOPLE SCAN AND SUPPORT RESEARCH. Pretending like the 'problem' is pet owners making breeders feel bad -- pet owners who have so little influence over breeding programmes!! -- is just ridiculous. The health focused breeders I talk to have few issues with pet owners, & welcome the scrutiny of their programmes. But they have MAJOR issues with the route their clubs take, many of the breeders, especially the big names, in their clubs, the attacks on researchers, the behind the scenes bitching amongst breeders, the omerta (http://pawpeds.com/pawacademy/general/codeofsilence/) which covers up what is really going on with some affected dogs being used -- STILL! -- in breeding programmes and shown in the ring, the refusal to share scan results or support a health registry to make it easier for scanning breeders to find each other.

Yes, of course pet owners and breeders need to be working together -- but so far I see a lot of distraught pet owners, a tiny group of scanning breeders who also work openly with other breeders on these genetic issues, and the vast majority of club breeders who either don't scan, or do scan and hide the results except amongst a small group (including top club officials who state they do this as if it is a badge of honour not to let anyone know whether they have dogs that could be helpful to saving this breed :sl*p:. How strangely twisted is the logic of that? Or is it just about holding down little sad fiefdoms of power while the breed gets worse and worse?). Well-- that will help keep many scanning breeders -- who generally include the smaller breeders not in their inner circles -- of finding A dogs for their breeding programme. I do not know a SINGLE scanning breeder who finds it easy to find dogs to use BECAUSE OTHER BREEDERS DO NOT TALK ABOUT THEIR RESULTS, EVEN FOR GOOD DOGS, which means good genes are being lost, despite some prominent breeders constantly complaining that the grading system means genes will be lost. The same women who scan and hide their results, directly contributing to the loss of their lines' good genes! Not a single breeder can honestly deny that everything I have said is true. I know enough breeders to know what the situation is. Not everyone follows the vow of silence at least privately.

Breeders, it is YOU who need to work TOGETHER, for the breed's sake! It is time to stop using whatever pet owners say as an excuse to do nothing or become indignant over your own guilt for not scanning but still wanting to breed and finding the excuses to yourself for doing so (thus do good breeders go bad. Good intentions are not enough!). Start scanning, work towards cheaper scanning programmes in your region of the world if you don't have them (how is it that the UK can have many and the US almost none? Stop complaining and get out there and work to change this!!), support research, scan older dogs which are now the critical dogs for understanding progression and finding clearer lines.

To argue that you cannot scan because you cannot afford to even though you do 'believe' in scanning means one thing: you are risking the health of every puppy you breed and the breed's overall health as you may be selecting all the dogs most prone to syrinxes for your breeding programme, with no awareness that you are doing so. You are breeding blind and the fact that cost is an impediment cannot be an excuse to go on breeding any old way you want in willful ignorance of your lines' health. How risky is this? Very! Talk to your own fellow breeders who have scanned and I doubt you will find one who wasn't taken aback -- if not outright shocked -- at some of their results on some of the key dogs in their programmes.

If you aren't scanning, you are breeding blind for a widespread, devastating, painful condition which will cost your puppy buyers in the majority of cases, thousands over the dogs' lifetimes to diagnose and treat, even if the most conservative approach is taken. How is this excuse of cost any different from the willful disregard of breeding for health that you accuse the puppy mills and BYBs of doing? Who are you kidding?

I'd ask those breeders internationally who are complaining about pet owners: what right have YOU to make these criticisms? Do YOU scan? Do you make your results known to your fellow breeders outside your group of friends? Do you support research? Have you sent swabs and scans and cardio certs to researchers? If not, what grounds do you have to criticise pet owners?

Claire L
15th August 2009, 10:51 AM
Excellent post.

HollyDolly
15th August 2009, 10:55 AM
I think a meticulous breeding programme is one that has to include MRI scanning -- or people should not be in the breed. If you are buying puppies, do NOT assume anyone has a meticulous health focused breeding programme unless you SEE the scans and the cardiologist certs and KNOW they are doing both.

If they aren't scanning, then breeders have NO idea what the state of their dogs is and are simply breeding blind. Given how long it can take symptoms to begin to show, and given how few owners are willing to go back and tell their breeder or the person they nought their dog from that it has SM (I survey people on this and it is a tiny, tiny fraction especially if the breeder is nice and people don;t want to 'disappoint' them), and given that vets will not do so as it is not their role to report back the health status to breeders, it is an utter nonsense for any breeder to say their lines have no SM because they have never heard of an affected dog.

At any rate I know of breeders who have posted this publicly for years and where I KNOW pet owners who have written to them about affected dogs of their breeding -- some of these people simply lie -- which in turn causes all the rest to come under criticism. Breeders should not be blaming pet owners' frustration on 'breeder bashing' but their own colleagues who have openly lied and whom pet owners know have lied; who deny SM in their lines, who deny SM is a problem... STILL... and who *don't MRI their own dogs, in some cases, not a SINGLE dog yet continue to breed. For that matter no group 'breeder bashes' more than breeders themselves -- just listen in on the L-list for any length of time and read the archives for proof or get involved in showing yourself. So I for one am really tired of this artificial division being drawn up, which is just a diversion away from the actual issues of WHETHER PEOPLE SCAN AND SUPPORT RESEARCH. Pretending like the 'problem' is pet owners making breeders feel bad -- pet owners who have so little influence over breeding programmes -- is just ridiculous. The health focused breeders I talk to have few issues with pet owners, & welcome the scrutiny of their programmes. But they have MAJOR issues with the route their clubs take, many of the breeders, especially the big names, in their clubs, the attacks on researchers, the behind the scenes bitching amongst breeders, the omerta which covers up what is really going on with some affected dogs being used -- STILL! -- in breeding programmes and shown in the ring, the refusal to share scan results or support a health registry to make it easier for scanning breeders to find each other.

Yes, of course pet owners and breeders need to be working together -- but so far I see a lot of distraught pet owners, a tiny group of scanning breeders who also work openly with other breeders on these genetic issues, and the vast majority of club breeders who either don't scan, do scan and hide the results except amongst a small group. Well-- that will help keep many scanning breeders -- who generally include the smaller breeders not in their inner circles -- of finding A dogs for their breeding programme. I do not know a SINGLE scanning breeder who finds it easy to find dogs to use BECAUSE OTHER BREEDERS DO NOT TALK ABOUT THEIR RESULTS, EVEN FOR GOOD DOGS, which means good genes are being lost, despite some prominent breeders constantly complaining that the grading system means genes will be lost. The same women who scan and hide their results, directly contributing to the loss of their lines' good genes! Not a single breeder can honestly deny that everything I have said is true. I know enough breeders to know what the situation is. Not everyone follows the vow of silence at least privately.

Breeders, it is YOU who need to work TOGETHER, for the breed's sake! It is time to stop using whatever pet owners say as an excuse to do nothing or become indignant over your own guilt for not scanning but still wanting to breed and finding the excuses to yourself for doing so (thus do good breeders go bad. Good intentions are not enough!). Start scanning, work towards cheaper scanning programmes in your region of the world if you don't have them (how is it that the UK can have many and the US almost none? Stop complaining and get out there and work to change this!!), support research, scan older dogs which are now the critical dogs for understanding progression and finding clearer lines.

To argue that you cannot scan because you cannot afford to even though you do 'believe' in scanning means one thing: you are risking the health of every puppy you breed and the breed's overall health as you may be selecting all the dogs most prone to syrinxes for your breeding programme, with no awareness that you are doing so. You are breeding blind and the fact that cost is an impediment cannot be an excuse to go on breeding any old way you want in willful ignorance of your lines' health. How risky is this? Very! Talk to your own fellow breeders who have scanned and I doubt you will find one who wasn't taken aback -- if not outright shocked -- at some of their results on some of the key dogs in their programmes.

If you aren't scanning, you are breeding blind for a widespread, devastating, painful condition which will cost your puppy buyers in the majority of cases, thousands over the dogs' lifetimes to diagnose and treat, even if the most conservative approach is taken.

I'd ask those breeders internationally who are complaining about pet owners: what right have you to make these criticisms? Do YOU scan? Do you make your results known to your fellow breeders outside your group of friends? Do you support research? Have you sent swabs and scans and cardio certs to researchers? If not, what grounds do you have to criticise pet owners who wonder why not?
cl*pNanette

Bet
15th August 2009, 12:51 PM
Thank you Karlin for your Post, you have put in a Nut Shell what so many of the Frustations we Cavalier Pet Owners are feeling to-day.

There was a recent News Letter from the UK CKCS CLUB, I think this says it all!!!!

There were 1,000 Swabs given out to Club Members, how many ,according to the News Letter have been Returned ,approx 250.I think that is in over a year.

Bet(Hargreaves)

Karlin
15th August 2009, 01:16 PM
Likewise due to internal politicking and begrudgery very few breeders who gave CKCS DNA samples followed through with also sending heart certs (maybe they didn't have them but I doubt it, if they had MRI scanned). Because not enough were returned, the current genome scan project had to drop the intention to also have the genetic basis and genetic test for MVD, something clubs and breeders said they wanted for a decade plus. Do they?

I salute every health project that clubs and breeders undertake but this was a major, major initiative and has now delayed the possibility of such analysis by years and years. Years more of early dog deaths, years more of suffering dogs, years more of breeding guesswork, all because people -- breeders,not pet owners -- decided not to be part of a critical health initiative.

So in the end personality clashes, petty infighting, and begrudgery were more important than the breed. I bet many breeders never even knew there were requests out for this information because in the end it was so hard to get the clubs themselves internationally to push for this effort, make breeders aware, and get something as simple as cardiologist certs turned in to produce what would have been a stunning breakthrough for breeders and the breed. I do know pet owners who got cardiologist certs to try and make this project happen but in the end this was squarely in the breeder court and din;t happen due to lack of breeder support.

Sometimes it seems people only want their individual results but not to actually use them towards achieving better health in the breed. I just do not get such self-centred thinking and don't understand how anyone can look into the face of a cavalier and keep letting them suffer by turning away from the opportunities to find the tools that might vastly improve breed health. We don't even see how sad the situation is -- that breeders post in excitement on the L-list when their YOUNG dogs come back with clear hearts! The devastation wrought by MVD is now just the status quo. :(

Karlin
15th August 2009, 01:34 PM
This article by a geneticist on dog breeding is relevant in explaining the problem:

http://pawpeds.com/pawacademy/genetics/eliminatingmutation/

And the solution:


What can we do?


We can control many of the obvious genetic diseases by supporting research aimed at locating the genes and developing direct DNA tests for the mutant alleles. Test results should be employed to make certain that carriers are only mated to clear individuals, rather than for wholesale elimination of carriers, which would further impoverish the gene pool.

We can explain to breeders that mutations will always be with us, and are not an indication of failure or bad breeding practice, and that an open exchange of information will produce the greatest rewards. We can also show them ways to achieve their personal goals without making choices that are detrimental to their breed.

We can attempt to educate breed clubs on the importance of maximizing diversity in the gene pool. As the keynote speaker at the recent AKC/CHF conference, Dr. Malcolm Willis, pointed out, few breeds even have a good idea of what their major genetic problems are, how many pups are in an average litter, or how long their dogs live. Fewer still have any idea of how to retain existing diversity or reduce the average inbreeding.

Bet
15th August 2009, 03:10 PM
I have just printed off the Article about Genes Mutating.

Here is my Cynical thought though.

Is it just possible that some Cavalier Breeders don't want the SM and MVD Health Problems in the Cavalier Breed to disappear. ?

If the Cavaliers are dying at an early age because of those Diseases, then maybe some of the Cavalier Breeders who don't carry out Health Checks could be thinking that the more Cavaliers are dying young , then the more Money those certain Cavalier Breeders have a chance of making when they are being asked for another Cavalier.

Bet(Hargreaves)

Cathy T
15th August 2009, 04:04 PM
Is it just possible that some Cavalier Breeders don't want the SM and MVD Health Problems in the Cavalier Breed to disappear. ?

If the Cavaliers are dying at an early age because of those Diseases, then maybe some of the Cavalier Breeders who don't carry out Health Checks could be thinking that the more Cavaliers are dying young , then the more Money those certain Cavalier Breeders have a chance of making when they are being asked for another Cavalier


:sl*p: Seriously??!! You honestly think that some Cavalier Breeders don't want SM and MVD to disappear so they can continue to produce puppies who die young and then the buyer will come back to them and purchase yet another puppy??? Then not only is the Breeder an idiot but so is the Purchaser!

arasara
15th August 2009, 04:26 PM
the more Cavaliers are dying young , then the more Money those certain Cavalier Breeders have a chance of making when they are being asked for another Cavalier.

Bet(Hargreaves)

I can hardly believe someone would actually be capable of such an atrocity! :eek:

Mindysmom
15th August 2009, 04:50 PM
I would certainly think that if someone had a Cavalier that died young from a health problem they would think twice about getting another Cavalier. I also think that they would make sure they found a breeder who did do health testing. Unhappy customers tend to tell more people than happy customers so I don't think that would be good for business at all.

Karlin
15th August 2009, 04:55 PM
I do not think anyone intentionally breeds in illness in order to sell more dogs. Also I think that many owners end up going with other kinds of dogs if they become aware of serious health problems in a breed, or go for rescue dogs (I know of many who will no longer own a cavalier having gone through a painful death due to MVD or SM). And in many places, a dog that gets ill is grounds for a case against the breeder (eg 'lemon laws' in many US states) -- so there is no point in deliberately breeding for poor health, setting aside the ethical reasons.

However, I do think that making the decision to go on breeding without scanning to know the status of one's own dogs -- at least some of them -- is little different from backyard breeding. After several years now of growing concern about SM I don't think affordability can be a legitimate argument any longer. If people are concerned about scan costs, all the more reason to be supporting Sarah Blott's research and the genome scan, both -- as these are the only projects that will give a method of accurately predicting incidence nd will remove the need to scan in the longer term -- and the other international clubs need to get on board and get an EVB programme as currently only UK dogs are being done for Sarah Blott's research (however results of scans and heart certs are relevant for her work because ancestry all goes back to UK lines).

JeanKC
15th August 2009, 05:34 PM
There is one additional point I might make, though. By paying $2000 + for a pet puppy with a restricted registration that I can never breed or show(although I don't want to), and promised to spay, I feel like I am supporting the efforts of the ethical breeder I chose in their breeding efforts, including scans, etc. Well said.

chloe92us
15th August 2009, 07:53 PM
Bet, seriously? :bang:

honeymonster
15th August 2009, 08:36 PM
I have just printed off the Article about Genes Mutating.

Here is my Cynical thought though.

Is it just possible that some Cavalier Breeders don't want the SM and MVD Health Problems in the Cavalier Breed to disappear. ?

If the Cavaliers are dying at an early age because of those Diseases, then maybe some of the Cavalier Breeders who don't carry out Health Checks could be thinking that the more Cavaliers are dying young , then the more Money those certain Cavalier Breeders have a chance of making when they are being asked for another Cavalier.

Bet(Hargreaves)
I think this is crazy thinking. If money is motivating breeders, the last thing they want to happen is to lose business! If you buy something that is problematic do you go back again and buy the same thing? No, you are more likely to ask for your money back! That's a plain stupid remark to make and certainly does nothing to bring breeders and pet owners together. :fool:

WoodHaven
16th August 2009, 02:04 AM
I have just printed off the Article about Genes Mutating.

Here is my Cynical thought though.

Is it just possible that some Cavalier Breeders don't want the SM and MVD Health Problems in the Cavalier Breed to disappear. ?

If the Cavaliers are dying at an early age because of those Diseases, then maybe some of the Cavalier Breeders who don't carry out Health Checks could be thinking that the more Cavaliers are dying young , then the more Money those certain Cavalier Breeders have a chance of making when they are being asked for another Cavalier.

Bet(Hargreaves)

Bet did you read the article? Did you notice the date it was written?

If my cavaliers were to pass on young of something like MVD or SM, I would feel ethically bound to GIVE the people another puppy or give them some if not all of the money they paid me for the puppy.

This was one of the most ill conceived 'ideas' I've heard you utter (or in this case, seen you type).

HollyDolly
16th August 2009, 04:09 AM
If my cavaliers were to pass on young of something like MVD or SM, I would feel ethically bound to GIVE the people another puppy or give them some if not all of the money they paid me for the puppy.







Breeders like you Sandy are one of the best.:flwr:

Brian M
16th August 2009, 07:35 AM
Hi Sandy

Fully agree with what nannette says its your type of person we need to help us pet owners and I only wish we had a lot more like you on this side of the water .
I sense you might be thinking about leaving us please dont if you are ,its only with help from breeders like you who we know do wonderful work in rescue and that you do fully support your puppy buyers and produce quality healthy pups .
The only way forward for our wonderful breed is help fom pet people like me who when we do require a new pup approach our breeders and insist that their puppies are health bred within all the guidelines otherwise we walk away and equally so breeders like you do breed to these guidelines and together with dialogue, trust, understanding and legislation where appropriate we will defeat all our enemies be they byb ,SM,MVD or bad
breeders.There are ignorant unscrupulous people on both sides so please lets not surrender our breed to the likes of them our Cavaliers are
wonderful loving trusting pets and theres nothing like them so lets not succomb to that age old viwpoint of divide and conquer surely for all its best to unite and WIN for all our Cavaliers

Best Wishes

brian
POPPY DAISEY and ROSIE:)

Bet
16th August 2009, 10:44 AM
Perhaps I could mention ,our Beloved B/T ,Becky, suffered from Epilepsy, also had had some Cluster Fits, have any of you seen a Dog in a Cluster Fit.

One Fit after another ,they never get out of one fit until another Fit starts.

After advice from Dr M Willis, Geneticist , he recommended me to Phone Becky's Breeder, and tell her of Becky's Conditition, Dr Willis had seen Becky's Pedigree ,I had discovered there were other Cavaliers in her Pedigree who had also suffered from Epilepsy, .

I phoned the Cavalier Breeder, and the Words BULL MANURE ,only it was'nt Manure was'nt the word she Used !!!!,were screamed at me.

I certainly do not class all Cavalier Breeders like this, but why are there still some who will not make the effort to carry out Health Tests ,particularly for SM and MVD,in our Breed, Epilepsy Tests can't be done , the Cavalier Puppy Buyer has to depend on the Honesty of the Cavalier Breeder not to Breed from Stock knowing there is Epilepsy in the Pedigree background.

Maybe somebody on the List could tell me why ,even as Cavalier Club Members, some Breeders will NOT abide to Cavalier Breeding Guidelines recommended by the UK CKCS CLUB.

To say I was shocked when I read Karlin's Post ,saying about the lack support for the Current Genome Scan Project into the Genetic Test for MVD ,to put it mildly has SICKENED ME.

And some of you wonder why I blew my top.

I have been struggling for the past 20 years trying to get something done about the Heart Problem in our Cherished Breed and I really thought ,at last ,because Genetic Test for MVD ,maybe there would be light at The End Of the Tunnel ,at least for the Cavaliers' MVD Problem.

Bet(Hargreaves)

Mindysmom
16th August 2009, 01:32 PM
For what it's worth Sandy I wouldn't expect my breeder to give me a new puppy if mine ended up with MVD or SM. I understand that despite health testing these diseases can occur. As a pet owner I think it's my responsibility to ensure that the breeder I choose does the health testing I think is important.

I will be a little more careful in the future (but really 3 is enough!) because although I asked all of the right questions and received all the right answers from Max's breeder when I picked him up there was no documentation to back up what she said. I probably should have walked away at that point but I didn't. It did make me much more careful when I started researching breeders again (and it was probably the reason we got Rylie so soon - I was prepared for my search to take a year or so but things fell into place).