Meltdown!

Well, against my better judgement, I’ve decided to come out of hibernation and have a good old-fashioned meltdown.

What on earth makes some of you think that it’s only up to the breeders to solve the Cavaliers problems?! Because that’s what I’m hearing here and elsewhere. In my opinion the solution is in research. And research costs money. Lots of money. How about instead of telling we breeders it’s all up to us, you pet people (I hate that phrase, there has to be a better one)also take a little responsibility for the breed that you love so much. Take what you would spend to go out to eat for a month and donate it to research. Do that every year. A couple years ago I spearheaded a fundraiser for a specific research project on two of the Cavalier forums and a lot of people donated; to those people, I can’t express in words how much I appreciated it. But what was notable was how many people in the combined membership didn’t donate.

I know this is a little disjointed, but I wanted to say something before I changed my mind and didn’t say anything. PLEASE try to bury the hatchet and help us breeders solve the health problems. Just pointing the finger at us will solve very little. It’s everyone’s responsibility, breeders can’t do it alone, there's too few of us and too little money.

Will this not help Bruce?

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=28271&page=13

This is where most members here who chose to contribute prefer to pledge their support. And a very worthwhile cause it is too.

Sins

Thanks for the post Bruce.

If you go back through many threads here you will see that in almost any one that I have contributed to on the topic of research, I stress over and over that puppy buyers are a very important force for change both by supporting those breeders who scan and contribute to research (as this directly enables those breeders to continue breeding and showing and working towards better overall breed health). I and many others here also regularly encourage every pet owner to support research (many regularly do, some with quite astonishingly large sums -- I know of one for example who has supported directly with thousands of dollars, now running into 5 figures -- just one person!).

Many here have directly supported research by paying to have their cavaliers scanned for research, including me. Just for what it is worth, I would estimate my personal out of pocket donations to researchers and research now at approximately 4000 dollars/3000 euro. This is in between the costs to me to travel twice to the UK with the dogs & pay for scans, pay for blood draws and DNA swabs (twice) and send to the UK & Canada (as I own an affected and unaffected dog from the same sire, their DNA is considered very valuable, as is that of my 10 year old Roycroft clear girl); personal donations to one of the main USA club funds towards SM research, and direct cash donations to the SM postmortem project and the Canadian research. I would not have scanned just for a basic SM diagnosis and chose to go to the UK (with the associated travel costs) because I could have the scans go directly to research work.

But only breeders have a direct incentive and immediate imperative to scan and support research on MVD and SM.

They own the breeding dogs and make the breeding decisions. We do not. Your decisions now directly influence the health of every litter and breed health overall.

The heaviest weight must be for the individual breeders and breed clubs to support the research that will help the breed they breed and show, for their own personal pleasure, to survive. Our support as puppy buyers contributes to longer term results but not the short term effect you have every single time you decide to mate two dogs together.

I know you haven't been here in a while so perhaps have missed the ongoing fundraising efforts through eBay sales for example. There are a couple of threads along those lines and purchases allow board members to contribute even at the most modest level. Every donation no matter how small always matters.

Bruce H said:

Well, against my better judgement, I’ve decided to come out of hibernation and have a good old-fashioned meltdown.

What on earth makes some of you think that it’s only up to the breeders to solve the Cavaliers problems?! Because that’s what I’m hearing here and elsewhere. In my opinion the solution is in research. And research costs money. Lots of money. How about instead of telling we breeders it’s all up to us, you pet people (I hate that phrase, there has to be a better one)also take a little responsibility for the breed that you love so much..

Click to expand...

Hello Bruce,

Welcome to the debate, I'm just sorry I feel the need to disagree with what you say.

It is the breeders that decide which dog will be mated to which bitch, the health of the parents is entirely the responsibility of the breeders.
The pet buyers do have the power to refuse to buy from breeders that do not health test their dogs. I hope more & more will exercise that power.

Research is useless if breeders will not support it in practical ways, by giving information that is needed, and by using guidelines so that results can be assessed.

In the UK we have had a MVD protocol for ten years, but we don't know if it really would improve the number of cavaliers with early-onset heart murmur, because breeders have not followed it in its entirety.
Now we have cavalier club members fudging the SM guidelines by mating underage ( Grade C ) and unscanned ( grade D ) cavaliers.
If they do not get their act together we will never know if the guidelines would help.

I was the fundraiser for the Cavalier Club Lub Dub fund. In my experience it is the pet owners that donate most for research projects. There are certain groups of breeders/ exhibitors that are wonderful, they organise very successful events and work very hard, but many breeders would not buy a raffle ticket or pack of Christmas cards, on principle, if it is for research.

The mainly pet owners on this forum have helped me raise over £2,000 pounds for a project that supplies cavalier cell tissue to five different research projects, including the Canadian project searching for the SM genes.
http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/collection.htm
(This scheme is publicised on Clare Rusbridge's website, but I cannot get it put in the Dog World breed notes, or on the UK Cavalierhealth website )

Bruce H said:

It’s everyone’s responsibility, breeders can’t do it alone, there's too few of us and too little money.

Click to expand...

It is the breeder's responsibility, as they play God every time they mate two living breathing animals together. Pet owners have no say in planning breeding programmes. I am just thankful that they love their dogs so much that they are willing to help the breed in so many ways.

sins said:

Will this not help Bruce?

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=28271&page=13

This is where most members here who chose to contribute prefer to pledge their support. And a very worthwhile cause it is too.

Sins

Click to expand...

I took the third little cavalier body into Cambridge on Friday. My grateful thanks to the caring owner that volunteered him.
I will do an update on the SM Collection Scheme, private donations and the eBay fund raising in a later post

I am sorry Margaret, but here in the USA-- the bottom line with puppy buyers seems to be $$$. They don't care about testing. They want a cute puppy to take care of and I've been called crazy that "when" I do have pups I Won't sell them for what the byb, newspaper sellers sell them for.

I can test my dogs until I am blue in the face, but well over half of the calls I screen are looking for the best price.

I agree with you to a very large extent, Bruce. You make a good point. If we love the breed so much, then we should put our money where our mouth is.

There is one additional point I might make, though. By paying $2000 + for a pet puppy with a restricted registration that I can never breed or show(although I don't want to), and promised to spay, I feel like I am supporting the efforts of the ethical breeder I chose in their breeding efforts, including scans, etc. I've had many people express disbelief that I paid that much for a puppy for the privilege of being told what I can and can't do with her. I try to explain to these people about the health problems in the breed, the importance of careful breeding, research, etc., but they look at me like I've lost my mind.

Please understand that I'm not complaining about paying that much, given the cost of scans, testing, etc., but I think some recognition is due to the pet buyers who try to do the right thing by selecting ethical breeders, given the temptation of lower cost puppies. (Of course, I was trying to be self-protecting in the long run, hoping that buying from an ethical breeder would save me heartache and money on health concerns in the future. But many people are too short-sighted to look at it that way.)

It's the people out there who are paying BYBs and puppy mills (either directly or indirectly) for puppies who are not only supporting the wrong people, but are doing more damage (and cruelty) to the breed than anything else. It is almost certain those folks are not only not donating to research, but they are also actively harming the breed. So there are pet buyers and then there are pet buyers...

In the vet the other day, I met a nice lady who was talking to me about Daisy and I mentioned that she was spayed. She said "Why in the world wouldn't you breed her?!" I explained the restricted registration, health problems, etc. She then told me that her daughter had bought a Cavalier girl and was planning on buying a male at some point and having a couple of litters to get her money back from buying the dogs. I bit my tongue but did mention that you have to be very careful in selecting dogs to breed that do not pass on very serious health problems, etc., but it was kind of like talking to the wall. She then said "Well, she just wants to have one or two litters." Talk then turned to rescue and my fostering activities and she asked if her daughter could get a male through rescue to breed!! I said "Absolutely not, they are neutered before they leave rescue just for that reason!" I'm sure she will buy a male somewhere and have the litters, and someone will buy them and probably try to do the same thing. Oops, I'm getting off track here....

Again, I'm not arguing with your point because I do think it's valid, but I thought I'd point out that some pet buyers are in fact trying to do something about the problem through the prices they pay to breeders they trust.

ETA: After I posted this, your second post popped up, so I see that you are recognizing that concerned pet buyers shouldn't be classifed the same way as pet buyers who buy only on price.

OK I've calmed down a bit now. Sorry about the meltdown. My post was directed at those who seem to think it's all the breeders responsibilty and then donate nothing to research. I know that a lot of you do donate toward research and to those who DO donate to research, thank you for that from the bottom of my heart. You and the breeders that do the testing, study the lines, etc. are the people who are going to be the ones who solve the problems this breed has.

But I also have to say I am deeply sadened by the division that appears to have come between pet people and breeders. There are things that have been said on both sides that that probably should not have been said. Including my generalized meltdown I sincerely hope that someday that can change and we can all work together to help out our breed.

Sandy: if only half your calls are looking for best price and don't know/care about testing, then you're doing better than we are.

I also disagree with you Bruce, it doesnt matter how much money (and i have sent my own dogs scan for research) i send to the research it wont make some breeders apply to the rules set out by the researchers. For instance the new breeding protocol being set up by the animal trust which means the database will tell breeders which dogs would be best bred with which bitches to secure the best chance of avoiding the genes carrying sm and other problems has not been greatfully received, with some breeders refusing to apply. So thanks for all the research animal health trust but they arnt interested so what a waste of my hard earned cash that was, tell me Bruce what else can we do.

I've averaged one puppy call a day for the month of August. Five of them, the end all be all was price.
They couldn't afford a 'show dog', they just wanted a pet. No one would ever pay that much for a DOG... How are we suppose to come up with that much money-- do you take monthly installments? I think 3 asked first for heart testing. No one mentioned SM. I don't have any pups and haven't for a long time, so I just send them to someone who might.

harleyfarley said:

I also disagree with you Bruce, it doesnt matter how much money (and i have sent my own dogs scan for research) i send to the research it wont make some breeders apply to the rules set out by the researchers. For instance the new breeding protocol being set up by the animal trust which means the database will tell breeders which dogs would be best bred with which bitches to secure the best chance of avoiding the genes carrying sm and other problems has not been greatfully received, with some breeders refusing to apply. So thanks for all the research animal health trust but they arnt interested so what a waste of my hard earned cash that was, tell me Bruce what else can we do.

Click to expand...

ARE you going to guarantee this breeding protocol? ARE you going to take care of all the pups that have SM if you force breeders to do it YOUR way?? I just wonder who I can SUE if this too causes more issues than it solves.?. People seem to think there are hard and fast rules for inheritance-- there are not.
The dumbest statement I've seen so far was "All breeders have to do is follow the protocol and all these issues will go away-- or at least become less".

harleyfarley said:

I also disagree with you Bruce, it doesnt matter how much money (and i have sent my own dogs scan for research) i send to the research it wont make some breeders apply to the rules set out by the researchers. For instance the new breeding protocol being set up by the animal trust which means the database will tell breeders which dogs would be best bred with which bitches to secure the best chance of avoiding the genes carrying sm and other problems has not been greatfully received, with some breeders refusing to apply. So thanks for all the research animal health trust but they arnt interested so what a waste of my hard earned cash that was, tell me Bruce what else can we do.

Click to expand...

First off, thank you soooooo much for the money you have donated to research. I'm sorry you feel it was a waste of money; I don't. You contributed to future of the breed, not much more you can do. And you're right, some breeders won't adhere to guidelines or anything even close. But some will. Just like some people will never contribute money for research that may be the salvation of this breed, but some will.

Bruce H said:

First off, thank you soooooo much for the money you have donated to research. I'm sorry you feel it was a waste of money; I don't. You contributed to future of the breed, not much more you can do. And you're right, some breeders won't adhere to guidelines or anything even close. But some will. Just like some people will never contribute money for research that may be the salvation of this breed, but some will.

Click to expand...

IF modes of inheritance was easy, OR if monetary donations the easy fix-- MDA would be a thing of the past for humans. Does anyone know how many millions (has to be billions by now) have been used for this ONE HUMAN disease alone?
Bottom line is breeders don't want to breed ill dogs-- can we agree on that?? Or aren't we even this far along in talking.

WoodHaven said:

ARE you going to guarantee this breeding protocol? ARE you going to take care of all the pups that have SM if you force breeders to do it YOUR way?? I just wonder who I can SUE if this too causes more issues than it solves.?. People seem to think there are hard and fast rules for inheritance-- there are not.
The dumbest statement I've seen so far was "All breeders have to do is follow the protocol and all these issues will go away-- or at least become less".

Click to expand...

First I would like to make it clear that when I write I am usually referring to the UK breeders. They are the people I know.

I realise that it is very expensive for breeders in America & Canada to scan, but I'm afraid I do not accept that is a reason for them to do nothing about a problem that is affecting cavaliers worldwide.

Nobody can guarantee the SM breeding guidelines, they are an attempt to help breeders but they are not proven.
They never will be proven if breeders do not apply them in their entirety.

You appear to think that following the guidelines will result in even more SM puppies being born? Why should that happen?

As these guidelines ask for young cavaliers with symptomatic SM to be removed from breeding programmes, and older SM affected dogs with no symptoms to be mated only to a cavalier without SM, I do not see how it can do anything but improve the situation.

Breeding away from the condition by knowing whether your cavaliers are affected or not is surely a reasonable course to take?

If you do not think following the guidelines will help then what would you do to stop the spread of SM through the breed?

Excellent points on the issue of the cost of dogs, from different angles.

But the argument of cost is to my mind, a red herring in the context of research and really has little to do with whether breeders need to do what is right and support rescuing their own breed.

In fact the exact same arguments about pet buyers being unwilling to pay for show-breeder puppies have been made for years, dare I say decades, before SM was an issue and it's a constant recurring theme on breeder-related discussion lists. It has always been the case that only a small pool of puppy buyers is willing to pay the premium of a dog from a show breeder much less a show breeder that does health testing and breeds towards health and therefore may ask for slightly more again (I have solidly supported buying from such since the start of this board). There are always going to be a majority of buyers who just want a dog. They don't care about or know enough about health issues. It is also a fact that show breeders could not remotely supply the demand for any breed and there will therefore always be commercial breeders, and BYBs. That doesn't mean breeders give up on a focus on health.

There's also a massive recession at the moment and that is going to make people less inclined to buy a more expensive dog. I know some here have saved for months and years just to buy a single cavalier and now is probably not the time they will feel is right to spend on what is essentially a luxury. The argument that puppy sales had stalled due to the recession also was made by several breeders in the UK and US on the breeder-oriented lists over a year ago, with not a mention made of costs added on from health testing being an issue.

And cost is very relative. UK and US breeders have argued for years on why North American cavaliers are two to three times as much as UK show-bred dogs. I could right now purchase a puppy from two A parents from several UK show breeders for approximately half to a third of the AVERAGE price of a North American pet quality cavalier from a show breeder. Why this is so (and it isn't the cost of scanning being cheaper alone as the difference is there regardless of whether breeders scan or not) I leave to the breeders to debate.

That said I also know of scanning breeders with waiting lists of buyers more than a year or two long (depending on how many puppies they breed). Many buyers are willing to pay for supporting health. But there's a BIG problem with such informed, interested buyers being able to find breeders, because there are NO club listings of scanning breeders, and NO comprehensive open registries in any of the countries with the largest CKCS breeder clubs. Private enquiries to club members in charge of puppy referrals by puppy buyers has revealed many denigrate the practice of scanning, underlining that perhaps it is the club's and its officers' attitudes that undercut those who do try to make a difference in this way and encourage 'paying less' to other club breeders? Help in finding scanning breeders is also one of the main private questions I am asked -- literally every month many times -- but breeders on the L-list and CavalierChat regularly refuse to even contemplate offering such a service for buyers, and screech that no one else should offer such a list, even privately. :sl*p:

That leaves a lot of potential buyers with NO PLACE to connect to breeders who are doing the tests 0f whatever sort that they'd like to see.

As we all know, there are plenty of buyers who don't ask for such tests, so why do breeders feel such a list would be a problem? Surely that can defend their own choices on which tests they choose to do, or not testing at all, to buyers? Or do they prefer those choices to remain hidden? As a consumer, you'd get more information if you were buying a mattress than a puppy.

If the clubs and breeders want more funding support from pet buyers then

• they need to take the time to talk to buyers individually on health issues (which some do and many do not or deliberately avoid), they need to be clear to buyers about what testing tools are out there and what buyers should be looking for (no club website I have seen and few breeder websites make this clear)
  
• they need to encourage openness, especially with projects like the EBVs, and have transparent health registries of the sort breeder Anne Eckersley has been championing in the US and which was the initial goal of some of the UK initiatives before they were watered down (scan listings don't indicate grades or results; the healthy hearts list for years has allowed vet-checked dogs to qualify despite the longtime advice of their own club cardiologist and evidence from all international research)
  
• they need to lead by example and openly support research and USE the advice and protocols they get, not bury the results (eg the report from the North Carolina research in the US) or ignore the protocols completely or selectively
  
• they need to work together as a club with a large supportive membership that will USE such services, to work out their own low cost schemes. Surely there is not such a gross difference between the UK and US (with all its research vet schools and hospitals!) to work out similar schemes.

WoodHaven said:

I am sorry Margaret, but here in the USA-- the bottom line with puppy buyers seems to be $$$. They don't care about testing. They want a cute puppy to take care of and I've been called crazy that "when" I do have pups I Won't sell them for what the byb, newspaper sellers sell them for.

I can test my dogs until I am blue in the face, but well over half of the calls I screen are looking for the best price.

Click to expand...

There will always be some people that want a bargain, whatever it is they are buying. It is the same in the UK, but that is not a reason to stop trying.
Education is the key, and that includes breeders like you telling pet buyers what responsible people do to try and produce healthy beautiful puppies.

Perhaps things will change gradually. I have started getting emails from people in the USA that want to know where they can find breeders that health test their cavaliers.

I think we can all agree that caring breeders want to breed healthy dogs and will recognise the time and financial effort this takes and support the steps necessary to do so or switch to a breed where these issues are not as difficult as in cavaliers, and caring buyers will only buy from those breeders. That is what I would like to see.

On what pet buyers do toward's research: I'd like to highlight that a single pet owner in Canada, Sandy Smith, contributed $9,500 through her For the Love of Ollie fund to have 19 over-6-year-old cavaliers scanned in Canada... meanwhile, the Canadian Club paid for 3 to be scanned for the same research project.

This is critical research -- scans from older dogs are amongst the most valuable in a progressive disease like SM.

It isn't that the club's support isn't appreciated, but if a complaint is being made that pet owners don't contribute enough -- in fact, sometimes they contribute far more than national clubs to key research projects. What a difference to this research it would have made if the Canadian Club (or any club) had vowed to match the funding they took from a single pet owner for this project and enabled another 19 cavaliers to be scanned?

Sandy- tomorrow when you get your "call of the day", when they ask the price, don't answer. Instead say "before we talk price, I want to tell you about the two main health issues in Cavaliers. MVD, which could potentially kill a Cavalier by it's 7th birthday and virtually ALL Cavaliers will be affected by this, and SM, which could squeeze your Cavalier's brain out of it's skull and cause a life of pain. If you are looking only at price, the puppy you buy will not have tested parents. Do your research on the breed- this is NOT a breed for beginners or the weak at heart. Once you do, call me back and I'll tell you my price."

Bruce- It's good to hear from you! I stated this in another thread:

Quote: "Very interesting research...it's amazing how quickly researchers are working to help the Cavalier! There is light at the end of the tunnel...maybe."

I 100% agree that saving the Cavalier breed comes down to RESEARCH. But without samples, there is no research. Samples come from breeders.

WoodHaven said:

Bottom line is breeders don't want to breed ill dogs-- can we agree on that?? Or aren't we even this far along in talking.

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone would disagree with this.
But let's face it, even puppy farmers would not want to breed ill dogs, it is after all inconvenient when buyers kick up a fuss.

Good breeders would surely do everything in their power to avoid breeding ill dogs. If researchers are suggesting ways that may help to make that possible, why would they ignore their recommendations?

this is NOT a breed for beginners or the weak at heart.

Click to expand...

I can understand your feelings but think that would be a pretty harsh assessment and a bit unfair to the breed and to owners.

I would not for example say either to prospective owners of my Irish rescue dogs and having friends with other breeds with some severe breed-related problems, and others with mixes that have had severe and costly problems... I think dog ownership full stop is not for the weak at heart or the uninformed -- too many get a dog expecting it to be reliable in health and behaviour and a cheap proposition. Both are dependent to some degree on the owner and to some degree on the healthful breeding and consistent temperament that comes only from a responsible, knowledgeable breeder.

What I tell prospective owners is about the breed including its health issues. I say that many, most actually, purebred dogs have their distinct breed related health issues. Other breeds also have devastating problems -- generally, the most popular breeds as they get overbred, popular sire syndrome can be rife, and there's money to be made off of puppies so fast and indifferent, cheap breeding brings its own financial rewards for the unscrupulous.

So the puppy buyer can best support the breed and healthy dogs by supporting breeders that prioritise health. But buyers need to understand there are no strict guarantees.

However there are definite research results showing that following MVD and SM guidelines does produce healthier dogs. Established research was the basis of the MVD protocol over a decade ago from leading international cardiologists asked by the breed clubs to provide such a guideline, and with SM this has been reported on at two conferences now and while there are obviously going to be exceptions (that is simply statistical fact), in breedings over several generations, A cavaliers are producing the most A offspring, and are related to more A dogs in their near family than D or F dogs. D and F dogs have as far as I have followed this research, produced NO A offspring (recall an A means they MUST be 2.5 years old at their scan for grading, not a puppy or younger dog!). Why some breeders claim the SM suggested breeding guidelines 'don't work' when there is definite and ongoing evidence that this type of careful breeding DOES work is beyond me. Then, the same people who argue that over 1000 scanned dogs isn't an adequate sample and find fault with all the research samples so far, also are those arguing that a single case they have 'heard about' of an SM offspring from from AxA mating is enough to make the guidelines meaningless. Even though no researcher who actually validates scans is aware of such offspring, and the additional concern that many -- MOST! -- breeders are assuming grades based on their own readings of scans, and are also assuming As in dogs that are still *too young* to be given a grade. So no one actually knows if such a mating pair were even As to start with.

Anyway: I think cavaliers are a wonderful breed but owners need to be aware of the possible problems. And breeders know *most* callers will go away once they hear the price of a show breeder bred dog anyway (this has always been the case!) -- surely the key is to have a club referral point to breeders who scan, for the buyer who already knows this is a priority, and let those dedicated parties more easily find each other?