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View Full Version : Should I be suspicious of breeder who . . .



tloghman
23rd August 2009, 06:29 PM
Hi. I am very sad to say that I won't be getting the puppy I already reserved from a breeder so I am looking around just in case.

One breeder told me she won't get her cavaliers checked for hips and patellas, because the anesthesia almost killed her two boys. So she only checks their hearts and has MRIs for SM.

Should I be wary?

I also wanted to meet the parents but she worried for the mother's health and said I could visit some time after the puppies are born.

I am in a bind, because in the past I have contacted so many other wonderful breeders but I wasn't able to get one of their puppies because my parents gave me a spending cap on the cost (which I believe is horrible, because all I care about is the health but my father especially believes most breeders are in it for the money and I am tried of arguing with him--we have been fighting over this for over a year).

In all I have contacted over 30 breeders . . . does anyone have some advice for me?

I have tried the rescue but I was told over the phone that I would be rejected because I do work and even though I would be the primary caregiver, my grandmom is always home and she use to watch over our golden retriever. (I still live with my parents) I was told they wanted the primary caregiver to be home all day with the cavaliers.

sins
23rd August 2009, 07:36 PM
I'm sorry to hear the puppy you had hoped to get won't be coming to you.


breeder told me she won't get her cavaliers checked for hips and patellas, because the anesthesia almost killed her two boys. So she only checks their hearts and has MRIs for SM.

But you need anesthesia for an MRI scan, or at least sedation??
So it's possible the breeder is making excuses,but on the other hand if she can produce clear heart certs and certs for Mri indicating no syringomyelia in the parents should you consider her? Well I wouldn't rule her out!
If the breeder is prepared to allow you to see the mum and puppies together after the birth then that's not too bad.
Realistically if she gets a lot of enquiries she may not be able to organise visits from prospective customers before the pups arrive.But surely she could e mail you a few pictures of the dam?? If she shows, you should be able to find photos of her cavaliers on line and check out their pedigrees too.
You should really go with your gut instinct though.If there are warning bells going off in your head or you're not comfortable with a particular breeder,then take a pass on the pups.Both breeder and customer should be comfortable with each other.
As for rescue, the logical thing would be to have your gran as the applicant! Have a chat with your parents and gran again and see if that would be suitable.
The most important thing is to create a stable home for your new dog,make sure that if you have to leave home for any reason the dog will be cared for and not moved from house to house.
I hope things work out well for you.
Sins

tara
23rd August 2009, 07:50 PM
Breeders please correct me if I'm wrong -- dogs don't need to be sedated in order to check knees and hips, do they? I don't understand what this breeder is saying.

I'm sorry it isn't going to work out with this breeder. Keep up with your search and try to be patient (I know it's hard). The right puppy (or adult) will come along!

Karlin
23rd August 2009, 08:27 PM
Yes this sounds wrong -- you need an anaesthetic for SM, but not for patellas -- any vet can test in a second for patellas. Hips are usually xrayed but don't need to be for HD.

Breeders would not be that concerned about a visit with a pregnant mother as far as aI know, but I would be more concerned after the puppies are born (at least til they get their injections). Others don't mind. So this sounds a bit odd overall to me, unless the explanations were misunderstood. But many breeders would be too busy to have visits in advance, and different people have different philosophies. Did you see heart certs from a cardiologist, and MRI scans? Are you sure the breeder actually does do the tests?

Are you in the UK? Actually guess you are probably in North America.

i think if you have a spending cap you'll likely need to keep checking with various rescues or recognise you'll need to wait til there's more money as this is unfortunately a pricy breed in many parts of the world. Proper testing is costly. Also if you opt for a rescue you could end up spending far more on health issues as yu won;t know anything at all about the dog. I'd never recommend a rescue cavalier if costs are an issue.

I think this breeder doesn't sound like they were actually doing what they were saying.

Nastya
27th August 2009, 12:52 AM
Cavalier that I currently own was purchased from a breeder whose dogs were heart certified. She also insisted that cavaliers don't have hip problems and therefore do not need to be x-rayed. Lou has severe hip dysplasia and after being contacted regarding this issue the breeder insisted that none of her pups have ever had this issue. However there are no x-rays to back up her story. I would beware. Better safe than sorry. While the dog needs to be sedated to be x-rayed the maintenance expenses and possible future surgery costs are very large.

Karlin
27th August 2009, 01:05 AM
She also insisted that cavaliers don't have hip problems

And yet the national club sites say:

http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/ckcsc_inc.nsf/founded-1954/hipdysplasia.html

http://www.ackcsc.org/club/content/view/41/113/

and:

www.cavalierhealth.org/hipdysplasia.htm

It would be hard for a breeder to not be aware of the issue unless they aren't reading anything at all on health issues and good breeding practice. :rolleyes:

patg
27th August 2009, 01:09 AM
I also purchased a pup from what I thought was a reputable breeder. My pup was sedated and x-rayed to determine what his problem was at 2 1/2 years old. The x-rays showed SEVERE hip dysplasia in the left and also in the right hip but not quite as bad. :( The breeder swore up and down she never had any hip dysplasia in her lines and never heard of a cavalier with hip dysplasia. I sent her the x-rays and never heard from her again BE CAREFUL.
PS He also has bi-lateral luxating patellas and has gone through one surgery already. Pay now for a good healthy pup as it costs alot more in the long run.

WoodHaven
27th August 2009, 01:13 AM
If you live in the USA, you don't need to be sedated to do hips-- I just did one last month, I told them no drugs. I saw her through the whole procedure and they got a great picture with the first shot -- I figured she was an OFA fair -- she was graded a better grade of "good". Patella's can be done by any vet. All they do is manipulate the knee cap and feel how it moves.

Here in the USA, dogs need to be under to get an MRI. It took 40 minutes to get the pictures they wanted-- what dog can sit still for that long?

Karlin
27th August 2009, 01:16 AM
Sheesh. How can anyone breeding not have heard of a cavalier EVER having hip dysplasia? :rolleyes: It comes up as a regular, occasional topic on breeder-focused discussion lists. I know of a few cavaliers with HD in Ireland. It always is amazing to me that there are people who say these kinds of things to puppy buyers. A good breeder should want this information to help his/her breeding programme and generally would be very supportive to a puppy buyer with an affected dog. It is sad when that is not the case.

tloghman
27th August 2009, 02:13 AM
Thanks everyone for your thoughts! Funny enough, most breeders I have spoken to in the past, will show me the certificates for the patellas but not for the hips.

What bugs me the most is that I DO have the money to buy from a wonderful breeder, but there will be no living with my father if I go against his wishes and pay that much. It will be easier with my father I know after I get the puppy, because he NEVER knows how much I really pay at vets or the pet supply stores. LOL.

But he always gets involves at the breeder level, which is SO frustrating. I can't tell you (and this is embarassing) how many times I have cried all night because how he is driving me CRAZY by tying my hands with price.

I would move out, but then I know I couldn't have a puppy because I would have to live in an apartment. And I don't want the puppy to be by herself while I am at work until 5. Here, she will be with my grandma and have access to a large, fenced in yard. I know a cavalier will be happier with my family than in an apartment. Besides, I know my sister, grandma, and mom will spoil her with so much love!!!

chloe92us
27th August 2009, 02:19 AM
Are you saying you would do anything aside from moving out to buy the best quality pup? If that's the case, then I would save your money and wait until you've saved enough to do just that. ;)

tloghman
27th August 2009, 02:34 AM
I agree in some respects, I think I am going to wave my white flag for now and just continue to study the cavalier as a breed. Maybe if I take some time and come up with a new fresh approach and present that to my father, he might change his mind. Can you believe that his original limit was $500? That was RIDICULOUS! I managed to change that limit to $2000 in a year and a half. Maybe by next summer, I can get it to the amount that I need.

It makes me very sad but maybe this is the best for now. I'll just bid my time until I can get him to change his mind. But until then, I live vicariously through all you guys! Thanks for listening everyone!

chloe92us
27th August 2009, 02:58 AM
Are you in the US? What State? For $2000 you should be able to find a well-bred Cavalier from a health-focused breeder.

tara
27th August 2009, 03:01 AM
I agree -- if you are in the US and can travel to the midwest, I know of one litter planned for the beginning of December. From an extremely good breeder, all health testing done including scans on both sire and dam. Feel free to PM me if you would like details.

WoodHaven
27th August 2009, 03:02 AM
Are you in the US? What State? For $2000 you should be able to find a well-bred Cavalier from a health-focused breeder.

Depends on the depth of testing and the number of people wanting pups. The upper east and west coast, it may be a bit more for a MRI'd pup.

I've had people offer more than twice that for a pup. Ahhh, they didn't get a pup.

Nastya
27th August 2009, 08:10 PM
I also purchased a pup from what I thought was a reputable breeder. My pup was sedated and x-rayed to determine what his problem was at 2 1/2 years old. The x-rays showed SEVERE hip dysplasia in the left and also in the right hip but not quite as bad. :( The breeder swore up and down she never had any hip dysplasia in her lines and never heard of a cavalier with hip dysplasia. I sent her the x-rays and never heard from her again BE CAREFUL.
PS He also has bi-lateral luxating patellas and has gone through one surgery already. Pay now for a good healthy pup as it costs alot more in the long run.
I also sent hip x-rays to my breeder's vet to get a third opinion (that's after our vet and a certified orthopedic specialist said that Lou has severe hip dysplasia where his hip joints are completely out of his hip sockets.) Anyhow she eventually responded saying that her vet said that Lou does not have hip dysplasia but a non-hereditary (by his account) Legg Calve Perthes disease; she suggested that Lou had injured himself while in my care and has developed this painful condition that I should have gotten taken care of by now.

Nastya
27th August 2009, 08:11 PM
I also know of a few breeders in the US that are very good at doing a lot of health testing on their dogs. The prices don't usually exceed 2,000. However I don't know what breeders charge for a pup in Europe.

clod
27th August 2009, 10:20 PM
My 9 yr old cavalier died recently from MVD, sudden onset after a fall- up until then she had been in good health.:(
I am now looking for another cavalier but feel overwhelmed by all the guidelines and information regarding various health problems in the breed. What really concerns me is that there doesn't seem to be conformity. The Cavalier Club makes various recommendations when searching for a reputable breeder but on ringing breeders I am not confident that they follow these recommendations. Many breeders don't seem to carry out the health checks on their dogs, or will say that the sire/dam have had the checks so their dog doesn't need them. I have had a breeder try to off-load a 14 mth old prize winning cavalier that 'had a problem with her knee' (sounded like luxating patella).
i just want to be confident that the breeder I purchase a puppy from is concerned with the longevity of the breed and is following the guidelines/health protocols. Unfortunately my experience has well and truely been a very mixed bag.
I shall keep searching - the Cavalier is such a lovely companion pet and I miss my little girl so much. I welcome any advice regarding this subject.:thmbsup:

Karlin
27th August 2009, 11:24 PM
In Europe the scanning breeders I know would charge a bit more that half that amount. That would be pretty standard.


Anyhow she eventually responded saying that her vet said that Lou does not have hip dysplasia but a non-hereditary (by his account) Legg Calve Perthes disease; she suggested that Lou had injured himself while in my care and has developed this painful condition that I should have gotten taken care of by now.

Wow, that is very creative! :rolleyes: Some of these large scale pet breeders spend thousands with their vets who happily rubberstamp whatever the breeder wants to do or so. A recent court case finding against Maria Larkin, a very well known puppy broker in New York who sells a lot of cavalier pups :mad:, said her vet was equally negligent for saying a puppy was in fine health when it very clearly had numerous problems that a vet should have seen.

Clod, sorry to hear about your 9 year old. It is a tough task to find a good breeder, though I think it was tough well before SM was added to MVD as a consideration. This is the approach I recommend:

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=26677

Karlin
27th August 2009, 11:28 PM
Incidentally this is what the OFFA site says on Legg calve Perthes:


LCP is believed to be an inherited disease, although the mode of inheritance is not known. Because there is a genetic component, it is recommended that dogs affected with LCP not be used in breeding programs.



So it is STILL most likely an inherited problem. And according to the site, a specialist would easily be able to distinguish between them.


Since the screening for hip dysplasia will also rule out Legg-Calve-Perthes disease

http://www.offa.org/leggperthinfo.html

tloghman
28th August 2009, 01:32 AM
I live in NJ and the breeders I found that MRI . . . their puppies usually cost between $3000 and $3500. And I found someone I really like whose puppies are $3500. And the breeder doesn't even live more than 30 minutes from my house! It would be perfect . . . I might see if I can work on my Dad a little more . . . but if anyone can recommend a breeder in the NY-NJ-PA-CT area, please PM me if you wish!

Thank again everyone for everything!

tloghman
28th August 2009, 01:34 AM
Nastya, Is your Lou all right now? I hope he is--can we see a picture? I am glutton for cavalier cuteness!

WoodHaven
28th August 2009, 01:47 AM
I live in NJ and the breeders I found that MRI . . . their puppies usually cost between $3000 and $3500. And I found someone I really like whose puppies are $3500. And the breeder doesn't even live more than 30 minutes from my house! It would be perfect . . . I might see if I can work on my Dad a little more . . . but if anyone can recommend a breeder in the NY-NJ-PA-CT area, please PM me if you wish!

Thank again everyone for everything!

For a pet cavalier, that is a bit high. Can you pm me the breeder? Thanks, Sandy

davey
4th November 2009, 11:48 PM
u sound like a really nice genuine person..really hope it all works out for u!! how bout callin 'expensive' breeder. pick ur puppy and explain on qt ur predicament re dad and costs...u never know. they might be willin to nod and smile alongside when with ur dad when hammering out a deal (once the real deal is done before hand.if u get me)...i know its a little decietful...but...it would mean u gettin a health puppy and ur dad never need know, he can just be happy thinking he was right all along :)
goodluck :)

gocamping
5th November 2009, 06:09 PM
I have followed along and agree with Sandy that is a little high for this neck of the woods for a pet.
I hope one of the great breeders on this board have been able to help you locate a great puppy from a PM.

I also have to add that I was also turned down from a rescue, because I would not be home during some days. I also do not have a fenced in yard. 2 big no, no's for rescue. Even though, my new addition would have been taken to grandma's every day and walked on a leash I couldn't get a rescue.

Now, that I own 2 cavaliers and even help with rescue organizations. Guess what? I still don't have a fenced in yard and sometimes the rescues, go to Grandma's.

Nothing worth having is easy.