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Bet
22nd September 2009, 12:50 PM
Just noticed on the UK CKCS CLUB Web Site that the Club has given £5.000,for the Embryology Research.

Is this a different type of research from that which was carried out by Marin-Padilla in 1981 and also by Nishikawa and others in 1997,about the Pathogenesis of CM as Mesoderm and Insufficiency during Embrology ,-causing insufficent scope for the Mesoderm and ectoderm layers to develope. Or alternatively premature growth Plate Closure.?

Karlin
22nd September 2009, 01:34 PM
I am sure this is the recent research on stillborn puppies that showed a misalignment in growth and development between the skull and the brain. I believe this project is to continue to be funded. Sheena is a contact point on this research.

Bet
22nd September 2009, 03:49 PM
So will this Research be able to know if the Cavaliers have Large Brains ?

Is it the Large Brains of the Cavaliers that 's giving them SM.?

Do the Other Breeds of Dogs with SM not have Large Brains ?

Then if it's only Cavaliers with Large Brains who are Suffering from SM ,are those Cavalier Large Brains being caused by certain Gene/Genes applicable only to our Cavalier Breed.

Karlin
22nd September 2009, 06:54 PM
This research should help to give more insight but I don't know if it will be able to answer all those questions. The initial research indicated that the skull growth ceased before brain growth had finished and that brains were larger than would be expected for skull size in the breed. There's a summary of the research posted on the UK club website I think now.

Bet
22nd September 2009, 07:18 PM
Thanks Karlin.,

I don't know but would it be down to finding the Faulty Gene/Genes having an influence on what is happening.

As has been mentioned if the Brain was growing too much ,the Bone should keep up with it .

In the Cavaliers this relationship is lost, so if this is happening has it to thought that Gene/Genes are involved.

I can't work out why other Breeds have SM ,but is it the same reason that has been given for our Cavalier Breed, that their Brain is growing too much, the Bone should keep up with it.

If that's the case and Gene/Genes are involved ,have the Other Breeds got the same Gene/Genes as Cavaliers. Or do the other Breeds have a different type of SM ?

EddyAnne
22nd September 2009, 10:27 PM
I don't know but would it be down to finding the Faulty Gene/Genes having an influence on what is happening.

Geneticist Professor Dr Guy Rouleau mentioned in his video presentation at the conference last year something about “waiting till the cows come home”. I think that all things have to be considered yes even Environmental Factors, BUT due to LIMITED FUNDS AND TIME I think that research should maintain most focus on the highly probable rather than the lowly probable and this decided by researchers with specialist expertise.

Example - Highly Probable is Fibrillin 1.
Genetic studies in humans with Chiari Malformation Type 1 have indicated significant areas (high LOD scores) on chromosomes 9 and 15. On chromosome 15 there is a very large gene called Fibrillin 1 which has already been associated with genetic conditions that involve mis-shapen skulls including Marfan syndrome and Shprintzen-Goldberg syndrome (the defects in this syndrome include CM). Fibrillin has been suggested as a possible positional candidate gene. It is a very large gene coding for an amino acid which is a constitutive element of extracellular microfibrils in connective tissues. Fibrillin 1 sequence analysis in affected CKCS, Yorkshire Terrier, Bull Terrier, Boston Terrier, Chihuahua, Brussels Griffon and King Charles breeds is ongoing.
.

Bet
23rd September 2009, 10:32 AM
Sorry Folks about going on more about this.!!!

EddyAnne mentioned about the Gene FIBRILLIN 1,and Fibrillin 1 sequence analysis in CKCS, Yorkies, Bull Terriers ,Boston Terrier ,Chihuahua ,Brissels Griffon ,King Charles Spaniel Breeds,

Would all those other Breeds also have Large Brains?

EddyAnne also mentioned that this Research is ongoing ,is this the Genome Research in Canada.

Does it follow on then, if those other Breeds don't have Large Brains like Cavaliers, do the Cavaliers have a different type of Gene causing their Brain to be Large.

EddyAnne
23rd September 2009, 12:18 PM
Bet, maybe you should have a look again at Dr Guy Rouleau's video presentation at the conference where he certainly does mention Fibrillin 1.
Dr Clare Rusbridge today even mentions on her website "Fibrillin 1 sequence analysis in affected CKCS, Yorkshire Terrier, Bull Terrier, Boston Terrier, Chihuahua, Brussels Griffon and King Charles breeds is ongoing." Bet where do you think it is ongoing?
http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/research.htm

I thought that you mentioned that you read Clare's website which included this.
http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/part1.htm#4

The Ann Conroy Trust is for HUMANS and the Trust feels that what Clare is doing regarding dogs is great where they even presented her with a cheque. Well I think that is rather interesting and even in light of what I posted about Fibrillin 1.
http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/act_trust.htm
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Bet
23rd September 2009, 12:48 PM
Thanks EddyAnne, it had'nt registered about Fibrillin 1 ,so this research is now taking place in Canada. That's good to know.

EddyAnne
23rd September 2009, 01:09 PM
Bet I remember in Dr Guy Rouleau's video presentation which was last year at the very end he mentioned funds, maybe we should have a look at that part again and think about what I posted earlier.
"due to LIMITED FUNDS AND TIME I think that research should maintain most focus on the highly probable rather than the lowly probable and this decided by researchers with specialist expertise."
.

Bet
23rd September 2009, 03:13 PM
EddyAnne,

Just received my UK CKCS CLUB Magazine,where it was mentioned on the subject of SM, it is hoped that more Cavalier Breeders will soon have confidence in the MRI Scanning Process,this is in order to help Dr Blott with the EBV Scheme ,that it is recognized at the moment MRI Scannig is the Best Tool there is for Breeding Cavaliers.

That some of the critics of MRI Scanning Cavaliers have to be convinced that there are many SM Clear Cavaliers and indeed Clear Kennels , but at the moment there is only one way to do this. MRI Scanning.

So I guess it's a case of the Researchers finding the Faulty Gene/Genes for SM ,and the Cavalier Breeders MRI Scanning their Breeding Stock.

Bet
23rd September 2009, 04:03 PM
Should have added to my previous Post,

Mention is also made in the UK CKCS CLUB Magazine, that the Cavalier Committee have decided that they will shortly be Implementing a requirement that only Cavalier Puppies from HEART and EYE TESTED PARENTS can be Advertised on the CKCS CLUB'S PUPPY REGISTER .

HollyDolly
23rd September 2009, 07:18 PM
Mention is also made in the UK CKCS CLUB Magazine, that the Cavalier Committee have decided that they will shortly be Implementing a requirement that only Cavalier Puppies from HEART and EYE TESTED PARENTS can be Advertised on the CKCS CLUB'S PUPPY REGISTER .



It is tragic that this does not include MRI scanned parents.

Bet
24th September 2009, 01:38 PM
HollyDolly,

Maybe why SM is not mentioned along with Heart Tested and Eye Tested Cavalier Parents ,a requirement is shortly to be introduced by the UK CKCS CLUB Committee ,that if this is not been done, no Cavalier Puppies can be Advertised on the Club Puppy Register, could be because of the Shambles when some Cavalier Breeders at the Club AGM, tried not to have SM included in the CKCS Club Breeding Guidelines .I don't know whether SM is included yet or not.

Perhaps this comment could be applied to the Hard Core of Cavalier Breeders who seem to be against Health Testing Cavalier Breeding Stock, and giving prospective Cavalier Buyers a Certificate showing that this has been done with -out being asked for one.

Many Cavalier Breeders excuses have been for years ,they don't want to Panic the Cavalier Pet Owners, in other words ,some Cavalier Breeders don't want it known about Health Problems in our Breed.

Because of the Internet ,times have changed ,we Cavalier Pet Owners now know what questions to be asking before we buy a Cavalier such as,has the Cavalier's Parents been Health Tested,were there a good number of Long Lived Cavaliers in their pedigree Back-Ground.

There is now a Big Outside World than the tiny one that the Breeders used to live in.

We Cavalier Pet Owners ,I think , if we have been sold a Cavalier who developes a Health Problem and the Cavalier Breeder has not carried Health Tests on the Parents,of a Health Condition known to be a problem in Cavaliers ,then that Breeder can be sued.

EddyAnne
24th September 2009, 10:41 PM
,that if this is not been done, no Cavalier Puppies can be Advertised on the Club Puppy Register,

Where I am some Breed Clubs have already been doing this and Bet there is NO panic by Pet Owners that I can see, but where I am no Cavalier Club is doing this.
Due to the recent Government Codes Of Practice concerning Hereditary Diseases and the Seminars arranged for breeders in November, I think that after that yet more Breed Clubs may similarly do this regarding their prioritised list of health concerns within the breed.

Example this Labrador Club where already "Puppy purchasers must be supplied with: (b) Copies of parent’s hip, elbow and eye certificates".
When I talked to some of their breeders they mentioned that they gladly gave them anyway regardless if their puppies were on the Club's Puppy Register or not, see their "Puppy Sales Register Code Of Ethics" and what they do via this link address and the document is in PDF format.
http://www.labvic.org.au/documents/code_ethics.pdf
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tupup
24th September 2009, 11:07 PM
It is indeed tragic that as yet the Cavalier Committee have not included SM tested parents however i feel it is at least a step in the right direction for hearts & eyes as we are always keen for CKCS Club to do something, it may be late in coming Bet but its still good IMHO.
As i understand it (from discussions previously) they are waiting for the next AGM to include SM testing into future breeding guidelines.If it goes through then hopefully it will be included in the puppy registration requirements soon??? If not we will have to keep shouting until it is!

EddyAnne
24th September 2009, 11:21 PM
Oh that reminds me Bet. Those seeking pets in Australia might be looking for information about Syringomyelia where they might see this page at their local Cavalier Club's website at this address and click on the link thay's there. Then when the page loads in they will see a link to an article by Bet Hargreaves. What do you think Bet, maybe she might like to update her article.
http://www.cavalierclubvic.com/healthinfo.htm
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Bet
25th September 2009, 10:33 AM
Yes EddyAnne,

When facts change ,we have to change our Minds.

That is what happened to me. .including the PDE TV Program,

I thought that SOFTLY SOFTLY CACHEE MONKEY ,....would be all that was needed to get through to many Cavalier Breeders about the Health Troubles in our Cavalier Breed ,that they would heed us Cavalier Pet Owners when we were telling them about our Beloved Cavaliers dying young because a Health Problem, but no , it took the wee Cavalier suffering from SM ,and the Appearance of Margaret and Carol on the Program to Focus the Minds of the Cavalier World about the seriousness of SM.

I did write in some of the Articles that you have mentioned about my Queries about SM , but they were answered by DR C Rusbridge on her New Neurological Web Site, but I still wonder if, has been recently mentioned by Dr. Imelda McGonnell,that in Cavaliers the Cells she is Researching seem to be having an Abnormal Cell Division,that in a normal situation ,if the Brain is growing too much ,the Bone should keep up with it, but in Cavaliers this relationship is lost.

Could this be due to some-thing that happened in the 1930's ,when the Cavalier Skull was being altered to get the Flat Skull required for the Cavalier Breed from the Dome Shaped Skull of the King Charles Spaniels. ?Maybe this will be being considered by Dr I Mc Gonnell .

EddyAnne
25th September 2009, 12:39 PM
but I still wonder if, has been recently mentioned by Dr. Imelda McGonnell,that in Cavaliers the Cells she is Researching seem to be having an Abnormal Cell Division,that in a normal situation ,if the Brain is growing too much ,the Bone should keep up with it, but in Cavaliers this relationship is lost.

Could this be due to some-thing that happened in the 1930's ,when the Cavalier Skull was being altered to get the Flat Skull required for the Cavalier Breed from the Dome Shaped Skull of the King Charles Spaniels. ?Maybe this will be being considered by Dr I Mc Gonnell .
I think that Dr McGonnell might agree that Geneticists need to find the genes if we are to have a DNA test for Cavaliers.

Interestingly I note that Dr McGonnell mentions Fibrillin-1 and gives reference mentioning significant evidence for linkage to regions on chromosomes 9 and 15, and the following from this address.
http://findaphd.com/search/showproject.asp?projectid=20481

The Royal Veterinary College, University of London
Project Supervisor(s) Dr H Volk, Dr I McGonnell

The development of canine Chiari-like malformation in the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel

Canine Chiari-like malformation and syringomyelia is thought to be present in most Cavalier King Charles Spaniels (CKCS) in the UK, although the true prevalence is unknown. This condition is similar to human Chiari malformation, a common disease, the causes of which are unknown. Canine Chiari-like malformation is associated with severe pain and progressive neurological deficits which can lead to euthanasia. Treatment can only ameliorate the clinical signs and a complete remission of signs is rarely achieved. The main reason for treatment failure is that both the aetiology and pathogenesis is unclear. We hypothesize that it arises due to changes in the coordination of growth and development of the occipital bone and brain in the embryo and foetus.

Our first aim is to investigate brain and skull development in CKCS foetuses, to measure hindbrain/occipital skull ratio at birth, using computed tomography and high field (9.4 Tesla) magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). Our second aim is to use both the dog and chick embryo model to investigate if a candidate gene, Fibrillin-1, plays a role in skull and brain development by forming microfibrils and modulating Tgfb signalling. We will then investigate if mutations in this gene can produce characteristics of Chiari-like malformation. This will determine whether this gene contributes to the aetiology of this disease.

1. Rusbridge C, Knowler SP. Inheritance of occipital bone hypoplasia (Chiari type I malformation) in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. J Vet Intern Med. 2004 Sept-Oct; 18(5):673-8

2. Rusbridge C et al. J Vet Intern Med. 2006 Syringomyelia: current concepts in pathogenesis, diagnosis and treatment; 20 469-79

3. Boyles AL, Enterline DS, Hammock PH, Siegel DG, Slifer SH, Mehltretter L, Gilbert JR, Hu-Lince D, Stephan D, Batzdorf U, Benzel E, Ellenbogen R, Green BA, Kula R, Menezes A, Mueller D, Oro' JJ, Iskandar BJ, George TM, Milhorat TH, Speer MC.
Phenotypic definition of Chiari type I malformation coupled with high-density SNP genome screen shows significant evidence for linkage to regions on chromosomes 9 and 15. Am J Med Genet A. 2006 Dec 15;140(24):2776-85.
.

Bet
25th September 2009, 01:18 PM
If all the Cavalier Breeders won't Health Test their Cavalier Breeding Stock, then all the Research in the World won't give Cavaliers Healthier ,Longer Lives.

EddyAnne
25th September 2009, 06:07 PM
Bet where I am in some other breeds some pet owners and breeders just went quietly to their politicians and complained, they did this as they knew that talking to and trying to get things done with the well established scene within their breed would get them nowhere. It was interesting to see how many were trying to stop the politicians bringing in things about Heritable Diseases. Now we have Government Codes Of Practice, and in November there will be Seminars where a representative from the Bureau of Animal Welfare will be attending to explain the Code Of Practice and how breeders can best work with it. In time more Heritable Diseases might be added to the already existing Government Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act.

Well that is where I am where things are changing, and I think that after the UK Full Reports come out it just might still be a somewhat turbulent time in the UK dog scene, well we will just have to wait and see if that is so. In regards to the UK Cavalier scene I think that the scene should get heaps involved with Sarah Blott’s EBV Program, and which has been funded from what I hear by the Kennel Club Charitable Trust and the Animal Health Trust where I think that they might like to see it work great, but if it flopped then they would look at the reasons why it did where they may let their thoughts be known.

Also I noted a very recent comment by KC spokesperson Caroline Kisko, “We are making changes first and foremost to protect pedigree health. If we do not act in concert with breed clubs the law is likely to step in and take action independently which will impact equally – or more so – on any groups outside the KC." and “No breed club is immune from the spotlight that is being cast on their breed and these issues will not just go away.”

The APGAW Full Report is being revealed next month, and in the news it was mentioned that DEFRA is keen to obtain a copy. I wonder what the APGAW Full Report might contain and if Cavaliers are mentioned.
Then much later there is the Professor Bateson Full Report that he mentioned was being peer reviewed, and in the video where he was being interviewed from Australia by Catalyst I remember him talking about a Cavalier. I also wonder what his Full Report might contain and if Cavaliers are mentioned.
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Bet
26th September 2009, 02:26 PM
I noticed on another List a Quote by a List Member about genetics .
I just can't understand why this has been quoted and how it can be applied to help understanding.

Hopefully an explanation will be forth coming as to why the Article has been Quoted.

Bet
27th September 2009, 02:23 PM
Just noticed in the recent UK CKCS CLUB Magazine,that we can expect to see much tighter controls over Dog Breeding in the Future .There would seem to be a move towards Breeder Liability ,in which case each Breeder needs to decide for themselves the risks of not doing everything possible in terms of Testing to ensure the Health of any Off-Spring from their Breeding Stock.

I would think that in our Cavalier Breed, this could mean Heart Testing for MVD and MRI Scanning for SM.

I think that by some of the Hard Core of Cavalier Breeders ,the Health Problems in Cavaliers given by the Researchers was being ignored ,but this can't happen any-more now.

Nothing ,I think will focus some Cavaliers' Breeders minds more than being sued, if they have sold a Cavalier whose Parents have not been Health Tested , the Cavalier developes a Health Problem known to be in the Breed ,and the Cavalier Owner takes Legal action against that Cavalier Breeder.

That those Cavalier Breeders who spout SM or MVD Problems ,WHAT SM or MVD Problems can't do so any-more.This has also been recognized by the orginizers of the forth- coming World Wide Cavalier Walk, that our Cavaliers do have Health Problems, and a lot of money is needed for Research into them .

EddyAnne
27th September 2009, 08:10 PM
Bet we will just have to wait and see if anything happens after the Full Reports are available.

Over my way this suddenly appeared on a Government website in another state. Maybe something similar just might happen over your way, and I read in the news that DEFRA was keen to obtain the Full Reports. I heard that over your way that "Codes of Practice" could be embodied within existing legislation and that is not too difficult. It appears that the following was not too difficult over my way.

NSW Government
"Animal Welfare Code of Practice Breeding Dogs And Cats"

10.1.2.2 Where a heritable disease is recognised in a breed and where there is screening procedures or a test for that disease the person in charge in the case of a stud cat or dog or bitch or queen should:
• have a current official evaluation or test result for the dog or cat for such hereditary disease;
• provide the official evaluation or test result to the owners where the dog or cat is to be mated to an animal not owned by the breeding facility;
• provide the official evaluation or test result of both the sire and the dam to the new owners of any puppy of kitten;
• endeavour to ensure that the genetic make-up of both sire and dam will not result in an increase in the frequency or severity of known inherited disorders.
.

Margaret C
28th September 2009, 12:42 AM
NSW Government
"Animal Welfare Code of Practice Breeding Dogs And Cats"

10.1.2.2 Where a heritable disease is recognised in a breed and where there is screening procedures or a test for that disease the person in charge in the case of a stud cat or dog or bitch or queen should:
• have a current official evaluation or test result for the dog or cat for such hereditary disease;
• provide the official evaluation or test result to the owners where the dog or cat is to be mated to an animal not owned by the breeding facility;
• provide the official evaluation or test result of both the sire and the dam to the new owners of any puppy of kitten;
• endeavour to ensure that the genetic make-up of both sire and dam will not result in an increase in the frequency or severity of known inherited disorders.
.

Simple and clear.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if a similar Code of Practice was introduced after the Bateson report has been published.

Bet
28th September 2009, 10:36 AM
Still wonder if some Cavalier Breeders Minds will not be more Focused if there is a chance of them being sued....if they have not Health Tested for a known Health Problem in our Breed..and the unlucky Owner of such a Cavalier goes to Court .

I know Professor Bateson mentioned something about this being involved with a Code Of Practice, and that an Animal Charity could fight their case for them.

EddyAnne
28th September 2009, 10:46 AM
I read that DEFRA was keen to see the Full Reports. This is interesting on the DEFRA website.

Under the Animal Welfare Act 2006, powers exist for secondary legislation and codes of practice to be made to promote the welfare of animals. The government is currently looking at a number of specific issues with a view to updating or bringing in new regulations or codes.
Until such new provisions are made, existing laws will continue to apply.
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