PDA

View Full Version : Cavalier Breed Notes



Bet
28th September 2009, 12:53 PM
Norma has put on other Cavalier Sites mention of her Breed Notes .

It's still disappointing to note ,after the information in the recent UK CKCS CLUB Magazine that the CKCS Committee have decided that it will be shortly implemented that only Puppies from Heart and Eye Tested Parents can be advertised on the CLUB PUPPY REGISTER ,that Norma has never mentioned to Prospective Cavalier Buyers , only buy Cavaliers from Cavalier Breeders who have Health Tested their Cavalier Breeding Stock, that those Cavalier Buyers should ask to see a Certificate showing that this has been carried ,does she not believe in this policy.

Bet
28th September 2009, 06:14 PM
Sorry folks about this, it seems that I have annoyed some on the the CC List about questioning Norma why she has never given advice to Prospective Cavalier Buyers always to ask to see a Health Certificate from the Cavalier Breeder showing the Breeding Stock has been Health Tested.

This is some-thing I have believed should have been done 20 years ago ,and perhaps the MVD Problem in Cavaliers would'nt be so wide -spread as it is to-day.

Hope-fully when the APGAW and Professor Bateson's Reports come out Norma might then consider giving them a mention.

Margaret C
28th September 2009, 06:58 PM
Sorry folks about this, it seems that I have annoyed some on the the CC List about questioning Norma why she has never given advice to Prospective Cavalier Buyers always to ask to see a Health Certificate from the Cavalier Breeder showing the Breeding Stock has been Health Tested.

This is some-thing I have believed should have been done 20 years ago ,and perhaps the MVD Problem in Cavaliers would'nt be so wide -spread as it is to-day.

Hope-fully when the APGAW and Professor Bateson's Reports come out Norma might then consider giving them a mention.

Below is an interesting quote from CavalierChat forum, written by a puppy register coordinator/health representative/ regional club chairman/ forum moderator
( My goodness, what a lot of power in one pair of hands )

"I have always had a lot of respect for Bet but I'm getting a bit fed up with her continually complaining on various sites that there is nothing in your breed notes advising puppy buyers to ask for health certificates of the parents of new puppies. Surely that would be just preaching to the converted!! Breed notes are for people who already have the breed!! And also for the latest news about cavaliers, both pet and show. There is plenty of advice available on the web for people thinking of buying a puppy."

I decided to see what advice her CavalierHealth forum offered to puppy buyers searching for health information.

I couldn't find anything.......just a list of club contacts.

Strange that on a forum where three out of the four moderators either run puppy registers or are club health representatives?

sins
28th September 2009, 08:47 PM
Hi Bet,
Norma seems pretty quick on the uptake, but as yet I've failed to observe any powers of telepathy, so if you want her to include something,then tell her about it in advance, instead of pointing out what you'd like to see after the breed notes are uploaded and posted;).


It's still disappointing to note ,after the information in the recent UK CKCS CLUB Magazine that the CKCS Committee have decided that it will be shortly implemented that only Puppies from Heart and Eye Tested Parents can be advertised on the CLUB PUPPY REGISTER

Is this the same decision that was taken and reported at the AGM on 22 nd March? (Cavalier Club website)


The committee have decided that we will shortly be implementing a requirement that only puppies from eye and heart tested parents can be advertised on our Club Puppy Register.
That's six months ago and it's still not implemented, if they're still hoping to do it "shortly" then they'd better get moving.....any news on a definite date?
With all the opportunities provided by the Club to avail of eye and heart testing, there's no reason whatsoever why heart and eye testing cannot be carried out cheaply and effectively, or why anyone should feel aggrieved that the regsiter should only be available to breeders who have carried out required tests to advertise.It's essential that the Club do this as quickly as possible to assure buyers that they care about the quality and health of the future litters.
I'm still enjoying the breed notes:thmbsup:.
I was reminded of a neighbour of mine that I visited a few weeks ago while trying to reunite a lost cavalier.They briefly showed many years ago and had a very nice B&Tcavalier.
They gave up breeding when the IKC introduced mandatory microchipping and they said they dodn't care for it.They preferred not to vaccinate or worm or use any of those nasty chemicals on their dogs and preferred to keep it "natural".I'd have liked to have had a better look at their cavaliers but I couldn't really see them through the haze of cigarette smoke:p:p.
Sins

*Pauline*
28th September 2009, 08:52 PM
They preferred not to vaccinate or worm or use any of those nasty chemicals on their dogs and preferred to keep it "natural".I'd have liked to have had a better look at their cavaliers but I couldn't really see them through the haze of cigarette smoke:p:p.
Sins

Pets and passive smoking...don't get me started! :rolleyes:

Karlin
28th September 2009, 09:41 PM
Very low aspirations surely to think that Breed Notes is only read by those who already own the breed!

Yet even if someone was insisting the readership is small, nonetheless ownership does not mean owners (and breeders!) don't need such information or at least updates on issues such as that highlighted by Sins. Oddly, though the KC and CKCS Club have stressed the importance of not 'alienating' cavalier breeders by requiring proper health testing in order to receive KC registration, they also -- though they have mentioned a promise to do so -- also failed to take the very simple, inexpensive step of mailing out some basic information on health tests, and MVD/SM and other breed health issues when breeders register their puppies. Geez, will some basic information also 'alienate' them? Enough to not pay the KC to register puppies anymore? What are the priorities here: healthy dogs (as the KC keeps claiming) or puppy registration income?

So many very simple, very obvious, very basic, very inexpensive, very far-reaching steps could be taken to help the breed but somehow they are always being promised and never implemented.

What a shame that something as basic and positive such as the intention to require breeders to eye and heart test if they wish to be listed by the club puppy register-- which is surely of *key* interest and importance to the club people we are told are the main readers of Breed Notes -- has been neglected? But I guess if no one is actually requiring this yet then maybe there's nothing after all to announce? Anyone know where this initiative stands at this time?

Margaret C
28th September 2009, 11:05 PM
Very low aspirations surely to think that Breed Notes is only read by those who already own the breed!

Well...... that is probably correct now they are no longer published in Dog World.



failed to take the very simple, inexpensive step of mailing out some basic information on health tests, and MVD/SM and other breed health issues when breeders register their puppies..

Yet the Kennel Club have been promising that since 2005.


What are the priorities here: healthy dogs (as the KC keeps claiming) or puppy registration income?
So many very simple, very obvious, very basic, very inexpensive, very far-reaching steps could be taken to help the breed but somehow they are always being promised and never implemented.

:xctly:



What a shame that something as basic and positive such as the intention to require breeders to eye and heart test if they wish to be listed by the club puppy register-- which is surely of *key* interest and importance to the club people we are told are the main readers of Breed Notes -- has been neglected?.

My guess is that opposition from influential breeders is delaying this. There is an enormous gap between what the regional club committee members say publicly, and the pressure they bring to bear privately, when any health related reforms are suggested.


Anyone know where this initiative stands at this time?

I will contact the Cavalier Club Secretary and see if she can tell me when it will be implemented.

Bet
29th September 2009, 10:46 AM
Sins, even although Norma and I are Scots, we have different views about the Health Testing of our Cavalier Breed! We have had exchanges in the Past about this, so there is no chance of me wanting her to mention in her new Breed Note Site, that all Cavalier Breeders should Health Test their Breeding Stock,and Prospective Cavalier Buyers be being told to ask for a Certificate to show that the Cavalier Breeder has carried out those Health Tests

I did'nt realize that the mention of not having Cavalier Puppies advertised if their Parents had not been Heart or Eye Tested,had been announced at the Club AGM in March.

Is this just another case of the Club paying Lip Service, what is the delay,.

If only Cavalier Breeders had been open in the past, just even 20 years ago or even 10 years ago,about the Health Problems in Cavaliers ,would some Cavalier Breeders have to be being involved to-day in Limitation Exercises trying to get across as to what a Wonderful Breed our Cavaliers are ,.

We lovers of our Cherished Cavaliers know that ,but it's their Health Problems that seem to be either nearly out of control or have reached that state that concerns us .

I just wonder why Norma felt the need to advertise her New Breed Note Site on about every Cavalier Site,hope-fully now that she is doing this, New Cavalier Readers to it ,will be made aware of the importance of Prospective Cavalier Buyers to always ask to see a Health Certificate from the Cavalier Breeder showing that their Cavalier Breeding Stock has been Health Tested.

Margaret ,after having just found out about the mention of the Advertisement of Cavalier Puppies at the Club AGM in March,I do hope you can discover what is causing the delay.

sins
29th September 2009, 12:22 PM
there is no chance of me wanting her to mention in her new Breed Note Site, that all Cavalier Breeders should Health Test their Breeding Stock
That's fair enough Bet, but really, in that case it seems a bit unjust that she should be criticised for NOT mentioning it then....
I know you have different views on health testing .. so do I..... but I wouldn't see that as a reason to detract from my enjoyment of the breed notes.
I see breed notes have returned to Dogworld courtesy of Ruth Boundy and very best of luck to her.So we all have something to look forward to, both at the start and at the end of the week.
So Bet, where does cavalier health testing go from here?
Well the club couldn't possibly do any more to provide access to heart and eye testing short of bundling Simon Swift and co. into the back of a van and making them do house calls....so it just remains to do connect it all together and get the puppy register issue sorted out and publicise and promote the heart list. I think it's important to accentuate the positive and highlight the outstanding results.
Sins

Bet
29th September 2009, 12:59 PM
Well Sins ,where the Cavalier Health Testing can go from here is , I believe there is to be Mandatory Health Testing for both MVD and SM for Accredited Breeders starting early next year.

Just one Snag ,some of the Hard Core of Cavalier Breeders have said they won't be joining that scheme. Just the same as some have said they won't be MRI Scanning their Breeding Stock ,to help Dr Blott for the EBV Scheme.

So after Professor Sir P Bateson's mention on the Video that he gave ,that maybe there will be in the Code of Practice ,a ruling that all Dog Owners ,this will include Cavalier Owners I guess, that if a Buyer has been sold a Cavalier ,developes a Health Problem known about in the Cavalier Breed ,the Cavalier Breeder has not done a Health Test for that condition ,then the unfortunate Cavalier Owner can take Legal action against the Breeder,with the help of a Charitible Institution.

Finally Sins ,what are the Positive and outstanding results about the MVD problem in our Cavalier Breed ,as Simon Swift has said at the recent UK CKCS AGM ,50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age , This no better than it was 18 years ago.

Bet
30th September 2009, 10:30 AM
Having read Karlin's Post again,I just wonder is it only a Big Con by the UK CKCS CLUB saying that the CKCS Committee that they will be shortly implementing a Requirement that only Puppies from Heart and Eye Tested Parents can be advertised on the Club Puppy Register .

This had been mentioned at the Club AGM in March ,that was 6 months ago. !!!!

Margaret C
30th September 2009, 02:17 PM
Having read Karlin's Post again,I just wonder is it only a Big Con by the UK CKCS CLUB saying that the CKCS Committee that they will be shortly implementing a Requirement that only Puppies from Heart and Eye Tested Parents can be advertised on the Club Puppy Register .

This had been mentioned at the Club AGM in March ,that was 6 months ago. !!!!

Just put up on the Cavalier Club website today.......www.thecavalierclub.co.uk (http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk)

A form has been added to their puppy register section that must be filled in by breeders putting their puppies on the Cavalier Club register.:w*w:

Details of the parents heart and eye certificates must be filled in. SM details are still voluntary

Well done to the Cavalier Club.

sins
30th September 2009, 03:38 PM
Nice Job!:thmbsup:
Sins

Karlin
30th September 2009, 04:03 PM
That's great news. :) It will be helpful to breeders and to puppy buyers.

I'd like to see the KC follow through on its promises about sending health information to all who register cavalier litters. The club could have a key role in advising what should go in, or approving a packet of health info. I give such a packet to everyone who takes one of my rescue dogs -- surely it is just as, if not more, important for actual breeders to have such information?

Bet
30th September 2009, 06:53 PM
Never thought 20 years ago I would see this day . ....It's marvellous.

What is great about this as well is the mention of the Sire 's Health Details along with the Dam's.

What a Giant Step Forward the UK CKCS CLUB has made in trying to give our Cherished Cavaliers the Chance of a Healthier ,Longer Life.

I just can't take this News in yet.

EddyAnne
1st October 2009, 05:14 PM
I had a look at the Puppy Register Form, maybe I missed something.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/puppy/puppy_form.pdf

Regarding Hearts all the Club asks is that the Sire and Dam has a current Clear Heart Certificate, and there is NO mention that the Sire and Dam must have been tested at 2½ years or older.

Also the Club does NOT ask for heart health details on the 4 Grandparents where each at that time be tested Clear at 5 years or older.

Heart Specialist Simon Swift at the 2009 AGM as to why there was little change in incidence over 18 years he did mention this.
"Disappointingly few dogs are presented at 5 - 6 years of age which is the time that testing is critical according to the breeding programme."
.

Bet
1st October 2009, 07:16 PM
EddyAnne , I am just so grateful to the UK CKCS CLUB for putting to the fore -front that they will not be accepting for the Cavalier Puppy Register ,Puppies whose Parents have not been Heart or Eye Tested, this I would think is bound to show to the Prospective Cavalier buying Public the importance of only Buying Cavaliers from those Health Tested Parents.

It's the Buyers of our lovely Breed who have to be made aware that how it is so important to buy only from Cavalier Breeding Stock whose Hearts and Eyes have been Health Tested,you mention about the2,6 of Cavaliers being Tested ,but I would think that if Cavaliers have to show that they have a Current Health Certificate, then that age will be being covered.

Just be like me ,and be so grateful to our UK CKCS CLUB for what they have done, do you know of any other CKCS CLUB World Wide who has done this, I don't.

Bet
1st October 2009, 07:26 PM
Just had to mention this ,the Nit Picking and Griping has already started on the CC Forum.

I would have thought it would have been recognized that if Puppies mentioned ,Parents had not been Health Tested for Heart and Eye Problems, then they would not be allowed on the CKCS PUPPY REGISTER.

This must be the best out-let for Cavalier Breeders to sell their Cavalier Puppies .

EddyAnne
1st October 2009, 07:37 PM
Bet I know that you like to contact Specialists. Maybe you can contact Simon Swift and provide a link to the Puppy Register Form, then ask him for his opinion and I note he has access to the Heart Testing Database. Please let us know of his reply.
.

EddyAnne
1st October 2009, 08:35 PM
This must be the best out-let for Cavalier Breeders to sell their Cavalier Puppies.

Bet what about this outlet, there appears to be quite a few Cavalier puppies for sale on the Kennel Club’s website at this address.
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/psar/display.aspx?breed=6149&area=0
.

Kate H
1st October 2009, 11:26 PM
there appears to be quite a few Cavalier puppies for sale on the Kennel Club’s website .

One of the people who appears twice on the KC website list is a friend of mine, who breeds less than one litter a year but happens to have had two litters close together this year. She doesn't belong to the CKCS Club (mainly because she isn't interested in showing - she does obedience with her Cavaliers and aims to produce healthy, happy pets, though the occasional one does go to small breeder show homes) so can't advertise on their Puppy Register. She tells me she had several contacts via the KC site and after stringent enquiries and home checks, some of them were allowed to buy her puppies. I was actually quite impressed by the KC site - there is quite a lot of information about each breed, including a list of the health checks that should be done by breeders (the Cavalier advice includes SM as a voluntary check). My friend's puppies have MRI scanned parents and grandparents, all As.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

EddyAnne
2nd October 2009, 01:12 AM
Kate that does not surprise me and I think that there may be more but one has to look around to find them.

By the way, here is a photo of our Quincy with his ball collection and he is NOT a recognised breed by any Kennel Club in the world as he is an Australian Labradoodle. When we were seeking a pup his breeder quite willingly showed us a pile of health certificates going back generations on both sides, and yes we have even done health testing including OptiGen DNA health testing which is available for our Quincy.

http://members.wideband.net.au/safcav/Quincy.jpg
.

Bet
2nd October 2009, 10:47 AM
EddyAnne ,

The only reason I contact the Experts is to find out information ,so that I am sure of my facts in what I am saying.

I never pass on information that I have not had confirmed.

You mention about contacting Simon Swift, I just don't see the reason for doing this. .The link for the UK Cavalier Club Puppy Register Form is on the Club Web Site .

www.thecavalierclub.co.uk

I can't understand your request about Heart Testing Database, I would think that will be confidential Information between Simon Swift and the Cavalier Club.

I really am not interested in any-body else's opinion about the UK Cavalier Puppy Register, just my own , for which I am so grateful to our CKCS Club for doing this.

Karlin
4th October 2009, 12:13 AM
. There's no reason at all that heart info should be confidential -- why should results be kept hidden? Many US and Canadian breeders put their heart results on the open OFA database (http://www.offa.org/stats.html) as well as hip scores patellas, elbows and thyroid results. The heart certs must be from a board-certified cardiologist. This is actually the norm for many, many breeders and is extremely useful information for both other breeders and for puppy buyers -- it makes it far easier to research heart health over many generations. There's also now the CHIC database for cavaliers which is administered by OFA: http://ackcsccharitabletrust.org/chic.htm

Unfortunately the UK does not have a similar national database setup.

Bet
4th October 2009, 11:07 AM
I sure know Karlin ,that it would be great if the Heart Information was made public, BUT.............,you will likely not know about the Witch Hunting that went on here when 4 Cavaliers were named by Letters who could have been involved with the SM Problem. There were Cavaliers being named and Shamed by those Witch Hunters who had nothing to do with the Problem. It was ever Thus .

I have been involved for many years collecting Pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble, even going back to the 50's and found out about Cavaliers who were being used at Stud and were suffering from Heart Trouble, but passed on their names to the Experts.

The Cavalier Club have now made a great start by not putting on their Puppy Register Puppies whose Parents have not been Heart or Eye Tested,hopefully SM will follow. If only the Kennel Club would do the same on their Puppy List for Cavaliers. maybe we should now be having a go at the Kennel Club to be doing the same. Does any-body know who to contact about this. ?

The KC seem to be adament about registering Puppies from Non-Health Tested Parents, but maybe the two forth -coming Recommendations from Professor Bateson and APGAW's Committees,will alter their stance about this.

I have some-times wondered if some Cavalier Breeders show each other the Health Certificates of their Cavaliers before a mating takes place, or is it just a Case of a Nod and a Wink!!!

EddyAnne
4th October 2009, 09:00 PM
Where I am the Government new Codes Of Practice for Hereditary Diseases it mentions that breeders should provide health certificates to other breeders when breeding, plus breeders should provide health certificates to everyone who buys their puppies. It does NOT matter what dogs are being bred and sold, and even applies to dogs at puppy farms and pet shops. If breeders do NOT do this they could be in trouble for not complying to the Government Codes Of Practice. More Seminars may have to be arranged so that a representative from the animal welfare department can explain these new codes of practice to dog breeders including Cavalier breeders. I wonder if something like this might happen later on over your way.
.

Karlin
4th October 2009, 09:53 PM
I think many breeders can feel too intimidated to ask for health certs when told the dog has them. That's why I think a mandatory scheme would make a huge difference to breed health. That doesn't mean breeders couldn't make their own mating choices, but that a set of test results would be there as a basis on which to make choices (and on which pet buyers might also make choices of breeders).

Brian M
4th October 2009, 10:29 PM
Hi

For info it was only 2 months ago when I got my little Lily and to be honest the list on the Kc site was not a great help ,accredited breeders included, I phoned them all at the time i was searching and not one could supply all the certs I required ,mvd/eyes/hips/mri scanned parents etc even if they had pups ,one accredited breeder not too far from me even stated sm didnt exist .It was really word of mouth from one breeder (on mc list ) who did health test that put me in contact with Lilys breeder who is really a show person ,and apart from her I found two others (again from margarets advice ) who health tested who had cavs in pup but I needed to have waited for the outcome which I was prepared to do .The kc are changing but a lot of breeders who sell through them still have a long way to go till they realise that people like me who neither breed nor show still want health tested cavaliers ,and not all the pet owning public are still ignorant of these facts thanks to people like mc ,karlin ,barbara ,bet etc who are helping greatly to educate the pet owning public by sharing their knowledge with us on places like karlins website for example.

EddyAnne
4th October 2009, 10:59 PM
I think many breeders can feel too intimidated to ask for health certs when told the dog has them.
The breeder has to provide health certificates to all puppy buyers, that includes certificates from the sire side as well so the bitches owner will have to ask and be given so that they can provide. If these are not provided to the puppy buyers and considering how many pups in a litter it only takes one puppy buyer to complain to the authorities where this may lead to an investigation to find out why the certificates were not provided.

Note this which is written in the codes of practice document.
"The information contained in this publication is a Code of Practice prescribed under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (General) Regulation 2006 (the Regulation). People involved in the business of breeding dogs and cats are reminded that compliance with the standards specified in this Code is a requirement under that Regulation."
.

WoodHaven
4th October 2009, 11:13 PM
Hi

For info it was only 2 months ago when I got my little Lily and to be honest the list on the Kc site was not a great help ,accredited breeders included, I phoned them all at the time i was searching and not one could supply all the certs I required ,mvd/eyes/hips/mri scanned parents etc even if they had pups ,one accredited breeder not too far from me even stated sm didnt exist .It was really word of mouth from one breeder (on mc list ) who did health test that put me in contact with Lilys breeder who is really a show person ,and apart from her I found two others (again from margarets advice ) who health tested who had cavs in pup but I needed to have waited for the outcome which I was prepared to do .The kc are changing but a lot of breeders who sell through them still have a long way to go till they realise that people like me who neither breed nor show still want health tested cavaliers ,and not all the pet owning public are still ignorant of these facts thanks to people like mc ,karlin ,barbara ,bet etc who are helping greatly to educate the pet owning public by sharing their knowledge with us on places like karlins website for example.

For every buyer that is like you Brian (knows what he wants - testing, etc..) there are dozens out there that want a Puppy NOW and want it as cheap as they can get them.
I had one person call me-- I had no pups and she asked what I would charge if I did. She called me back and told me she had her choice of sex and color for less than half of what I would charge. She bought from a broker.

Brian M
4th October 2009, 11:23 PM
Hi sandy

I presume you said the right words to her.

WoodHaven
4th October 2009, 11:38 PM
I was kinda in shock:lpy:

I wasn't expecting someone to lecture me on cavalier availability and cheap vs. fully health tested and, well, not cheap. She told me "anyone who pays more than 800.00 (us dollars) for a dog is stupid''. :crash:

EddyAnne
4th October 2009, 11:38 PM
She bought from a broker.

Where I am the breeder would still have to provide hereditary disease health testing certificates even to new owners such as brokers and pet shops. Puppy buyers can ask for those certificates and if not provided they might complain where this may lead to an investigation by authoraties who deal with Government Codes of Practice and Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.
.

WoodHaven
4th October 2009, 11:44 PM
Where I am the breeder would still have to provide hereditary disease health testing certificates even to new owners such as brokers and pet shops. Puppy buyers can ask for those certificates and if not provided they might complain where this may lead to an investigation by authoraties who deal with Government Codes of Practice and Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.
.

Not here-- Just a health cert from a vet usually saying the dog appears healthy enough for sale (up to date on shots and dewormings etc) and where the dog was born.

Who decides what health tests are mandated?? Do you have the same amount of testing for human reproduction?? Just curious.

And until we have DNA testing for important diseases-- all health tests are, are reflections in phenotype.

http://webspace.webring.com/people/xq/qulil/purebred.html

EddyAnne
4th October 2009, 11:56 PM
Sandy this new thing came in very recently and in time we will find out exactly what it all means even in relation to Cavaliers.

NSW Government
"Animal Welfare Code of Practice Breeding Dogs And Cats"

10.1.2.2 Where a heritable disease is recognised in a breed and where there is screening procedures or a test for that disease the person in charge in the case of a stud cat or dog or bitch or queen should:
• have a current official evaluation or test result for the dog or cat for such hereditary disease;
• provide the official evaluation or test result to the owners where the dog or cat is to be mated to an animal not owned by the breeding facility;
• provide the official evaluation or test result of both the sire and the dam to the new owners of any puppy of kitten;
• endeavour to ensure that the genetic make-up of both sire and dam will not result in an increase in the frequency or severity of known inherited disorders.
.

WoodHaven
5th October 2009, 12:00 AM
So they expect breeders to be gods?? Who knows if breeding two animals will cause an increase.. I bred according to SM protocols-- and got 100% of a litter to have SM. Two F's-- a terrible increase while using the darn protocol. My crystal ball is obviously broken.

Karen and Ruby
5th October 2009, 12:23 AM
Hi sandy

I presume you said the right words to her.

I actually had a woman come up to me at a recent fun dog show- she took one look at Ruby and said to me (no hello) "isnt your dog stunning, could I breed him with my B&T bitch as I need a ruby!"
I stood there lost for words I told her that she is a bitch and I dont think you'd want her anyway as she has SM.
The reply I got.... "whats that then?"

Well I didnt know what to say except that if she didnt know what syringomyelia is then she shouldnt be breeding at all.

Just one example of the ignorence of some people!!!

karen

WoodHaven
5th October 2009, 12:30 AM
That happens a lot. People buy a cavalier, find them wonderful and think, hey, I can make back some of the $$ spent on fluffy by having a litter.
The last person who asked me had a male who she wanted me to breed to my female. I had to explain to her that she should champion her boy, do heart, eyes, hips and if possible an MRI-- she looked at me like I was crazy. The boy wasn't registered at all.

EddyAnne
5th October 2009, 01:04 AM
So they expect breeders to be gods?? Who knows if breeding two animals will cause an increase.. I bred according to SM protocols-- and got 100% of a litter to have SM. Two F's-- a terrible increase while using the darn protocol. My crystal ball is obviously broken.
That could possibly happen with hereditary diseases where DNA testing is NOT available, yes even in regards to MVD and Hip Dysplasia, but I think it tends to be an exception rather than what generally applies.

I think a breeder's defence in case of an investigation or a court case eventuated is to have the appropriate specialist health testing certificates and to have bred according to specialist recommended breeding protocols.
.

WoodHaven
5th October 2009, 01:24 AM
That could possibly happen with hereditary diseases where DNA testing is NOT available, yes even in regards to MVD and Hip Dysplasia, but I think it tends to be an exception rather than what generally applies.

I think a breeder's defence in case of an investigation or a court case eventuated is to have the appropriate specialist health testing certificates and to have bred according to specialist recommended breeding protocols.
.

You are going to be breeding by government protocols-- great. We have seen here how much the legislature DOESN'T know about breeding animals in the US. They have turned to the Animal Rights Fanatics to get their views.
AND We all know how much government 'HELPS' a bad situation. Just look at America now. yikes.

EddyAnne
5th October 2009, 01:50 AM
You are going to be breeding by government protocols-- great. We have seen here how much the legislature DOESN'T know about breeding animals in the US. They have turned to the Animal Rights Fanatics to get their views.
AND We all know how much government 'HELPS' a bad situation. Just look at America now. yikes.
The NSW Government Animal Welfare Code of Practice had been prepared in consultation with not only Veterinary Specialist but also "Dogs NSW", and which is the state controlling body and registry for our National Kennel Club called the ANKC, the equivalent of your AKC and the UK Kennel Club.
.

WoodHaven
5th October 2009, 02:19 AM
rotfl-- the AKC rejected one of my litter registrations because it said that my dam was a male. It took a short phone call to get it straightened out.
What the AKC doesn't know about health tests could fill universes. As we are told, they are just a registration body. The individual breed clubs are the ones that advise on health tests.

EddyAnne
5th October 2009, 02:55 AM
Sandy, people in Australia are tired of all the repetitive talk that has been going on for many years, and it is time that things are done so that changes can start occurring in the dog world.
.

WoodHaven
5th October 2009, 03:09 AM
What repetitive talk?
If we can't create 'perfectly healthy' humans-- WHICH we ALL have a vested interest in-- how can we produce perfectly healthy dogs. There are over a hundred "hereditary human defects" vs. the cavaliers, what 16-- a cocker has almost twice that many. I can't find the website regarding each breeds predisposition to hereditary diseases, but it is out there on the web.

Bet
5th October 2009, 10:30 AM
Sandy and Eddy, just wondering do CKCS CLUBS in your part of the World have what the UK CKCS CLUB has done, not accepting Cavalier Puppies for their Cavalier Puppy Register from Untested Heart and Eye Parents.

EddyAnne
5th October 2009, 12:03 PM
Bet the Cavalier Clubs in Australia do NOT have what the UK Club has just done. BUT I think that ALL dog and cat breeders in the state of NSW had better read the following, and compliance with the standards specified in this Code is a requirement under Government Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Regulation. We now have 2 states with Government Codes Of Practice involving dog and cat heritable diseases, and I think that in time all of Australia may have such Codes.

NSW Government
"Animal Welfare Code of Practice Breeding Dogs And Cats"

10.1.2.2 Where a heritable disease is recognised in a breed and where there is screening procedures or a test for that disease the person in charge in the case of a stud cat or dog or bitch or queen should:
• have a current official evaluation or test result for the dog or cat for such hereditary disease;
• provide the official evaluation or test result to the owners where the dog or cat is to be mated to an animal not owned by the breeding facility;
• provide the official evaluation or test result of both the sire and the dam to the new owners of any puppy or kitten;
• endeavour to ensure that the genetic make-up of both sire and dam will not result in an increase in the frequency or severity of known inherited disorders.
.

EddyAnne
5th October 2009, 03:02 PM
I have received a private email with a correction about the UK Cavalier Club Puppy Sales Register, and which I welcome as it helps to clarify things and which I can learn from, note.

"The CKCS Club HAS NOT refused to put puppies on the register from non-health tested parents.
The questionnaire simply asks for applicants to tick the YES OR NO box when it comes to health testing.... NOWHERE does it say puppies will not be added to the 'for sale' list if the parents are not tested.
There are ABSOLUTELY NO RESTRICTIONS ON THIS NEW FORM REGARDING WHETHER PARENTS ARE, OR ARE NOT HEALTH TESTED."
.

Bet
5th October 2009, 06:54 PM
Does anybody here in Britain know about this, in the recent UK CKCS Club Magazine it mentioned that the Committee have decided that we will shortly be implementing a Requirement that only Puppies from Heart and Eye Tested Parents can be Advertised on the Club Puppy Register.

I have now checked the UK CLUB Web SITE ,the mention of the Form was on the CKCS CLUB Web Site last week, to-day it seems to have vanished,

Bet
5th October 2009, 07:01 PM
Made a mistake ,sorry ,the form is still there

Bet
5th October 2009, 07:17 PM
Just feel I have to make a further comment about Eddy's Post, what is clear on the Form is the mention about whether the Sire and Dam of the Cavalier Puppy has a Current Heart or Eye Certificate.

That surely is the most important information that can be being given to a Prospective Cavalier Buyer, if the Cavalier's Sire or Dam don't have a Current Heart or Eye Certificate that says yes , well......

Karen and Ruby
5th October 2009, 10:50 PM
What repetitive talk?
If we can't create 'perfectly healthy' humans-- WHICH we ALL have a vested interest in-- how can we produce perfectly healthy dogs. There are over a hundred "hereditary human defects" vs. the cavaliers, what 16-- a cocker has almost twice that many. I can't find the website regarding each breeds predisposition to hereditary diseases, but it is out there on the web.

I supose the only difference is that humans have the last say- our dogs dont get to choose who they mate with, unless im mistaken?
Humans dont breed to spred genes ( well most anyway) they produce children because its a human right to do so and because they want and love kids-its a natural process of life and death. but dogs have been interfered with to the point of no return in some cases through no choice of there own.

karen

Karlin
5th October 2009, 11:03 PM
Surely if cockers have even more genetic problems this only underlines the very serious problem with dog breeding at the moment -- that problems have been compressed into breeds to such an extent that in many cases if these breeds were in the wild, the entire population would have died out? Also, number may not be as important as the seriousness and pain inflicted by a given genetic problem -- I do think MVD and SM in cavaliers, as serious, unacceptably painful and sadly, widespread problems outweigh many of the genetic problems in other breeds. I'd rather have the longer genetic lists of problems in some breeds than MVD and SM, which some geneticists believe threaten the survival of this breed or at least must raise the question of whether to continue with a breed in which a large number will die early and painfully?

Humans also are a very poor comparison example. The entire population of humans do not mate with the genetic equivalent of the number of people on the average jet -- or in the case of many breeds, the genetic equivalent of the number on a propeller commuter plane! There are also strong taboos in every human society against the kind of close family matings that are common choices made for dogs by dog breeders (sibling matings, parent/child matings, grandparent/child matings, cousins, and very often, the same dog reappearing in a dogs' lineage many times -- the equivalent of an ancestor producing offspring with say, one's grandparent, parent, aunt, and a sibling...all in one's direct family tree). And people who know they are at risk of passing along genetic diseases for which there are solid tests do tend to take the responsible approach of testing both partners, and weighing the ethics of producing a child in high risk circumstances.

WoodHaven
5th October 2009, 11:11 PM
I supose the only difference is that humans have the last say- our dogs dont get to choose who they mate with, unless im mistaken?
Humans dont breed to spred genes ( well most anyway) they produce children because its a human right to do so and because they want and love kids-its a natural process of life and death. but dogs have been interfered with to the point of no return in some cases through no choice of there own.

karen.

All animals breed to procreate-- since the dawn of time. An inborn instinct, in fact.
My point was-- the science isn't there to support breeding ANYTHING near perfect. All living beings have gene faults. Some are apparent at birth, some show while we age. Bad eyesight-- faulty genes.
People haven't always been able to choose there own mates. Women were often considered chattel.

WoodHaven
5th October 2009, 11:24 PM
Surely if cockers have even more genetic problems this only underlines the very serious problem with dog breeding at the moment -- that problems have been compressed into breeds to such an extent that in many cases if these breeds were in the wild, the entire population would have died out? Also, number may not be as important as the seriousness and pain inflicted by a given genetic problem -- I do think MVD and SM in cavaliers, as serious, unacceptably painful and sadly, widespread problems outweigh many of the genetic problems in other breeds. I'd rather have the longer genetic lists of problems in some breeds than MVD and SM, which some geneticists believe threaten the survival of this breed or at least must raise the question of whether to continue with a breed in which a large number will die early and painfully?

Humans also are a very poor comparison example. The entire population of humans do not mate with the genetic equivalent of the number of people on the average jet -- or in the case of many breeds, the genetic equivalent of the number on a propeller commuter plane! There are also strong taboos in every human society against the kind of close family matings that are common choices made for dogs by dog breeders (sibling matings, parent/child matings, grandparent/child matings, cousins, and very often, the same dog reappearing in a dogs' lineage many times -- the equivalent of an ancestor producing offspring with say, one's grandparent, parent, aunt, and a sibling...all in one's direct family tree). And people who know they are at risk of passing along genetic diseases for which there are solid tests do tend to take the responsible approach of testing both partners, and weighing the ethics of producing a child in high risk circumstances.

I think humans are a wonderful example because we are very genetically diverse and STILL plagued with health issues. We choose our partners (now) and still have childhood leukemia, huntington disease, down syndrome-- all horrible.

I had a dog with an autoimmune disease (worse than MVD and SM) I had a rescue with a list of ailments, worst was Epilepsy (worse than MVD, probably same as SM-- but the other ailments killed him before he was 2 1/2).

In nature-- incest is rampant// full sibs even.

Oreo
6th October 2009, 09:15 AM
I think humans are a wonderful example because we are very genetically diverse and STILL plagued with health issues. We choose our partners (now) and still have childhood leukemia, huntington disease, down syndrome-- all horrible.

I disagree with human being an appropriate example. First off, no people are selected for breeding the way dogs are. Of course humans have a genetic load, as do mutts, like any living creature and if not actively selected against, this load will continue with its only buffer being diversity. In the past with all animals, including humans, the hardships of nature culled from breeding many that are not culled today - natural selection or survival of the fittest. In creating breeds we have replaced natural selection but our criteria is not as harsh and at the same time we have disallowed diversity by closing gene pools. This type of breeding can in no way be compared to breeding that has gone on from the dawn of time.

Second, a statement comparing numbers of health issues (of which many are extremely rare) but which ignores prevalence is grossly misquided. It is the prevalence of specific diseases in certain breeds that has made them scientist's best friend in their efforts to find the causative genes for diseases . . . we may benefit, but it is sad for the dogs.

The prevalence of Chiari Malformation (herniated tonsils) in humans is less than one in 1000 and we know it is much above that is Cavaliers.

MVD is also about 21 times more likely to occur in Cavaliers than in the typical dog.

These prevalence rates are scary!

It also should be kept in mind that segregeted and inbred small human populations suffer even from inbreeding depression and increased prevalence of inherited diseases -Hapsburgs, Tudors, Romanoffs amongst others.


In nature-- incest is rampant// full sibs even.

What do you back this statement with? I usually refrain from posting but could not let this go. Undomesticated animals go to GREAT lengths to avoid inbreeding. Practically all animals and plants have evolved structural, physiological and/or behavioral mechanisms which discourage pairings between close relatives.what is commonly known as inbreeding avoidance. This is practically universal in nature. It is, however, one of the first things lost under domestication, because it tends to interfere with the immediate objectives of individual human breeders which we can now see can be short sighted.

There are lots of studies and papers on this topic. Here are just some.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/88288.php

http://www.biologynews.net/archives/2006/03/07/active_inbreeding_avoidance_in_wild_capuchin_monke ys.html

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Doi=19063


While I understand the point that there will always be risks with breeding puppies and perfection is an impossibility, I believe most of us who love our pets want the risks to be mitigated as best as possible.

Surely asking those in clubs that proclaim themselves as guardians to these breeds to assure that they are guiding their breeding programs making the best use of current scientific knowledge in regards to breeding, and health testing so that they can make the best decisions, is not too much?

BTW - even some of us humans with a probable genetic load do undergo genetic testing before bringing children into this world.

Bet
6th October 2009, 11:50 AM
Karlin and Oreo,

Thank you Both for such sensible Posts.

Hellmuth Wachtel who lives in Austria,has often mentioned that Wolves will travel many,many miles to Mate , the seemingly can smell if a Mate is not compatable to Them.

I sometimes wonder if in the Cavalier World ,I have heard Cavalier Breeders talking about a Cavalier Bitch being a Squealer when she is being Mated,( Us Pet Lovers of Cavaliers can imagine my thoughts when I heard this being discussed, but I had better keep off this subject ,but I was shocked to know that a Cavalier Breeder would put a Cavalier Bitch through the Pain she was suffering ,for what !!!),

As OREO ,has just mentioned ,it has been Proved that Undomesticated Animals go to great lengths to avoid In-Breeding.

Carol Fowler
6th October 2009, 11:56 AM
I've been catching up with this thread, ie the Cavalier Club's decision to include a health results form for MVD on the Puppy Register.

I welcome this, of course. However, the MVD breeding protocol states that the grandparents of puppies should be five years old and free from MVD. I think this form should include the heart information of all four grandparents as well as parents. I believe we would then see a fairly rapid inprovement in heart health.

The Cavalier Club take these small steps (which are to be welcomed) but why don't they take a bigger step? After all it would simply be endorsing a protocol which has been in place for over ten years, and it would show that the CLub really means business in terms of breed genetic health.

Carol

sins
6th October 2009, 01:58 PM
It's very much welcomed.
However if only breeders who strictly adhered to the protocol were allowed to advertise their puppies,it would be a very short register indeed.
Sins

WoodHaven
6th October 2009, 02:30 PM
I disagree with human being an appropriate example. First off, no people are selected for breeding the way dogs are. Of course humans have a genetic load, as do mutts, like any living creature and if not actively selected against, this load will continue with its only buffer being diversity. In the past with all animals, including humans, the hardships of nature culled from breeding many that are not culled today - natural selection or survival of the fittest. In creating breeds we have replaced natural selection but our criteria is not as harsh and at the same time we have disallowed diversity by closing gene pools. This type of breeding can in no way be compared to breeding that has gone on from the dawn of time.

Second, a statement comparing numbers of health issues (of which many are extremely rare) but which ignores prevalence is grossly misquided. It is the prevalence of specific diseases in certain breeds that has made them scientist's best friend in their efforts to find the causative genes for diseases . . . we may benefit, but it is sad for the dogs.

The prevalence of Chiari Malformation (herniated tonsils) in humans is less than one in 1000 and we know it is much above that is Cavaliers.

MVD is also about 21 times more likely to occur in Cavaliers than in the typical dog.

These prevalence rates are scary!

It also should be kept in mind that segregeted and inbred small human populations suffer even from inbreeding depression and increased prevalence of inherited diseases -Hapsburgs, Tudors, Romanoffs amongst others.



What do you back this statement with? I usually refrain from posting but could not let this go. Undomesticated animals go to GREAT lengths to avoid inbreeding. Practically all animals and plants have evolved structural, physiological and/or behavioral mechanisms which discourage pairings between close relatives.what is commonly known as inbreeding avoidance. This is practically universal in nature. It is, however, one of the first things lost under domestication, because it tends to interfere with the immediate objectives of individual human breeders which we can now see can be short sighted.

There are lots of studies and papers on this topic. Here are just some.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/88288.php

http://www.biologynews.net/archives/2006/03/07/active_inbreeding_avoidance_in_wild_capuchin_monke ys.html

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Doi=19063


While I understand the point that there will always be risks with breeding puppies and perfection is an impossibility, I believe most of us who love our pets want the risks to be mitigated as best as possible.

Surely asking those in clubs that proclaim themselves as guardians to these breeds to assure that they are guiding their breeding programs making the best use of current scientific knowledge in regards to breeding, and health testing so that they can make the best decisions, is not too much?

BTW - even some of us humans with a probable genetic load do undergo genetic testing before bringing children into this world.

You've attack many different aspects of this all on one post-- makes it difficult to answer clearly.

Bet
6th October 2009, 02:31 PM
So Sins , I guess you are saying the Cavalier Breed is in the mess it's in with their MVD Problem, is because some of the Cavalier Breeders have not been heeding CKCS Club's Breeding Guidelines Protocol.

WoodHaven
6th October 2009, 02:39 PM
Oreo-- ever watch the nature channel??
Lions, right off the top of my head. New male becomes alpha-- he kills off all young and breeds with all the females in the pack. He doesn't care if the females are his mom, sisters -- he breeds them all and natural selection will have the weak die off. Yes, that is nature.
Yes- there are some animals that don't act this way. There are even some species that are monogamous.
There are whole species of animals that have very high COI's.

I took in the gerbils from my daughters class. I took all the females because the teacher had 2 generations of inbreeding going on. The 5- 6week males were kept with their mother and aunts too long and we had to take care of three litters of very inbred gerbils.

You can't take everything as all inclusive. I said humans were a good example because of the vast genetic diversity. This is one part of a huge puzzle, but people were discussing the diseases being exacerbated by vast inbreeding.

Must run, we have a 40' container to unload in the rain today--

Jay
7th October 2009, 02:14 AM
Oreo-- ever watch the nature channel??
Lions, right off the top of my head. New male becomes alpha-- he kills off all young and breeds with all the females in the pack. He doesn't care if the females are his mom, sisters -- he breeds them all and natural selection will have the weak die off. Yes, that is nature.

This is generally not true. Young male lions are driven off by the pride when they reach puberty. Once they become proficient at hunting, they become nomads. Male littermates will often pair off when leaving the pride. They group up against males from other prides when they become more mature and strong enough.


You've attack many different aspects of this all on one post-- makes it difficult to keep clear.

IMHO, Oreo's post is very well written and is very clear to me.
J.

WoodHaven
7th October 2009, 02:26 AM
This is generally not true. Young male lions are driven off by the pride when they reach puberty. Once they become proficient at hunting, they become nomads. Male littermates will often pair off when leaving the pride. They group up against males from other prides when they become more mature and strong enough.



IMHO, Oreo's post is very well written and is very clear to me.
J.

Answering the lists of problems was my issue. It would have to be answered in different text or written like a law write up. On point a, sub chapter b etc... etc..

The nursing kittens MUST be killed (males and females) to drive the felines back into season again. I saw this episode just the other day. Felt sorry for all those females loosing their babies.

IF anyone here knows the answer to the cavalier health dilemma-- besides complaining-- as NIKE says, Just do it. It is way too easy to sit and tell people how to better what they are doing. It is much harder to walk in those shoes.

Jay
7th October 2009, 02:38 AM
The nursing pups MUST be killed (males and females) to drive the felines back into season again. I saw this episode just the other day. Felt sorry for all those females loosing their babies.


I am not disagreeing that lion cubs are killed by the new dominant male. I am arguing the point that the dominant male is/is not related to the females. I agree with Oreo, that under natural conditions, animals in the wild generally do not inbreed. Animals unnaturally placed together may inbreed, but in most cases "in the wild" this just doesn't happen.
J.

Bet
7th October 2009, 10:00 AM
Yes Sandy ,

I sure can tell you how the Health of our Lovely Cavalier Breed can be improved from the Dire Straits it's in at moment because of their MVD and SM Problems.

For ALL CAVALIER BREEDERS ,not just the few who are doing this, NOT TO BREED from ANY CAVALIER who is suffering from these Conditions.

It's as SIMPLE as that !!!!!

Bet
7th October 2009, 10:43 AM
Should have added this to my Previous Post , .

Many of us who are on this List are or have been Cavalier Pet Owners, not Breeders as Sandy suggests we should be.

What I think now ,because of the Internet ,we Broken Hearted Cavalier Pet Owners who have had so many tears because of the Suffering of our Cherished Cavaliers ,are not prepared to have this go on any longer.

We are now making our Voices heard, thanks to Margaret and Carol appearing on the PDE TV FILM ,we now feel confident enough to say to Many Cavalier Breeders ,enough is enough ,get your Breeding of Cavaliers in order,so that our Cavaliers can have the chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives.

If only the majority of Cavalier Breeders had been honest in the Past and not Bred from Unheathy Cavaliers,would the Breed be in the mess it's in to-day .



Sandy ,are you saying that the In- Breeding of Cavaliers has not caused any Problems.

I respectfully suggest that you and others who have this same opinion ,contact the Geneticists who are involved with the Cavalier Health Problems.

I was involved with Liverpool University a few years ago ,and had sent them Pedigrees of Cavaliers either suffering or had died from Heart Trouble, they were Researching MHC , the Researchers said that the In- Breeding of Cavaliers was involved in this,.

I was even sent a copy of where about on their Gene Map this was.

So Sandy ,I have not sat back and have done nothing ,but only complain, to help our Beloved Cavalier Breed !!!

Finally why is it that it seems to be only us Owners of Cavaliers, mainly Pet Owners , not Cavalier Breeders,noticed when our Cavaliers have had a Health Problem appearing ,and it seems that other Cavaliers are also suffering from the same problems, we try to get something done about it,

Why do some Cavalier Breeders want to bury their Heads in the Sand about the Cavalier Health Troubles.

Is it because their Reputations will suffer in the Show Ring ,or...... their Income will be reduced. !!

Bet
7th October 2009, 11:41 AM
Sorry about this folks, But thought this was worth mentioning, Professor Sir P Bateson, whose Recommendations will be being issued shortly,has said that there is no diffrence in Grand- Father to Grand -Daughter ,Grand-Mother to Grand- Son Matings, it is In-Breeding.

Breeders seem to have kidded them-selves this is Line Breeding ,but it's not.

WoodHaven
7th October 2009, 03:54 PM
Yes Sandy ,

I sure can tell you how the Health of our Lovely Cavalier Breed can be improved from the Dire Straits it's in at moment because of their MVD and SM Problems.

For ALL CAVALIER BREEDERS ,not just the few who are doing this, NOT TO BREED from ANY CAVALIER who is suffering from these Conditions.

It's as SIMPLE as that !!!!!

Simple
Bet, I've said this to you on numerous occasions. I don't know of ANY breeder that would breed a dog SUFFERING from any health condition.
In the USA, the OFA has a CHIC program. Canine Health Information Center

WoodHaven
7th October 2009, 04:07 PM
Should have added this to my Previous Post , .

Many of us who are on this List are or have been Cavalier Pet Owners, not Breeders as Sandy suggests we should be.

What I think now ,because of the Internet ,we Broken Hearted Cavalier Pet Owners who have had so many tears because of the Suffering of our Cherished Cavaliers ,are not prepared to have this go on any longer.

We are now making our Voices heard, thanks to Margaret and Carol appearing on the PDE TV FILM ,we now feel confident enough to say to Many Cavalier Breeders ,enough is enough ,get your Breeding of Cavaliers in order,so that our Cavaliers can have the chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives.

If only the majority of Cavalier Breeders had been honest in the Past and not Bred from Unheathy Cavaliers,would the Breed be in the mess it's in to-day .



Sandy ,are you saying that the In- Breeding of Cavaliers has not caused any Problems.

I respectfully suggest that you and others who have this same opinion ,contact the Geneticists who are involved with the Cavalier Health Problems.

I was involved with Liverpool University a few years ago ,and had sent them Pedigrees of Cavaliers either suffering or had died from Heart Trouble, they were Researching MHC , the Researchers said that the In- Breeding of Cavaliers was involved in this,.

I was even sent a copy of where about on their Gene Map this was.

So Sandy ,I have not sat back and have done nothing ,but only complain, to help our Beloved Cavalier Breed !!!

Finally why is it that it seems to be only us Owners of Cavaliers, mainly Pet Owners , not Cavalier Breeders,noticed when our Cavaliers have had a Health Problem appearing ,and it seems that other Cavaliers are also suffering from the same problems, we try to get something done about it,

Why do some Cavalier Breeders want to bury their Heads in the Sand about the Cavalier Health Troubles.

Is it because their Reputations will suffer in the Show Ring ,or...... their Income will be reduced. !!

You could have added this to your last post using EDIT

My unhealthy litter came from a total outcross (which I've told you before) a very low COI. They came from parents that are still VERY healthy today. Following the MVD and SM MRI's protocols this should have been an extremely healthy litter. It isn't.

Your last line is ridiculous . IF You breed ill dogs-- people will NOT buy puppies from you. I don't care how pretty the dogs are-- peoples reputations would be murdered. I would have to give back all the 'income' (which is a joke) from a pup if they had early onset MVD or SM.

But, much like a dog chasing it's tail, repeating myself is getting us no where-- so Whatever Bet.

Yorkysue
7th October 2009, 05:37 PM
Cavaliers as we know them today came from a very small gene pool! There is no getting away from this. Ergo, however carefully breeders are at trying not to mate dogs that are too close, the fundemental fact is that it will still be 'inbreeding' to an extent (if you are going to be pedantic here) and it's no-ones fault it is just a fact.
There are other breeds of dogs that have evolved from equally small gene pools, so to the people out there who are so inscensed by inbreeding; I suggest you go to the local dog pound and get a mutt! and forget about our beautiful precious cavaliers that we all love so dearly, because without so called 'in-breeding' the cavalier wouldn't exist!!!!!


And as for the idea that wild animals avoid close in-breeding - Rubbish! what about stallions and rams etc that sire everything in the herd, until the up and coming new leader appears - And who do you think that is????

Their son!! more often than not.:lol: What a laugh

Bet
7th October 2009, 07:14 PM
Perhaps every- body should calm down about In-breeding, wait till what Professor Sir P Bateson and APGAW have to say about this subject.

I think that at the moment the Most Serious Problems for Cavaliers are MVD and SM.

What is so noticeable ,when this argument is lost ,these issues are not discussed, but it's the People who are involved with them ,that others have a Go at.

This is happening more and more on other Cavalier Lists.

Karen and Ruby
7th October 2009, 08:19 PM
Perhaps every- body should calm down about In-breeding, wait till what Professor Sir P Bateson and APGAW have to say about this subject.

I think that at the moment the Most Serious Problems for Cavaliers are MVD and SM.

What is so noticeable ,when this argument is lost ,these issues are not discussed, but it's the People who are involved with them ,that others have a Go at.

This is happening more and more on other Cavalier Lists.

Bet its always the same xxx

EddyAnne
7th October 2009, 10:09 PM
It is not always the same where I am for change is coming to the dog and cat world as the Government now has "Codes Of Practice". Next year via the media the Government may start educating the public that if they buy a puppy or kitten to make sure they obtain appropriate health testing certificates for hereditary diseases where breeders are required to provide by the Government "Codes Of Practice".

First think about Puppy Farms with hundreds of breeding dogs and wonder what changes might possibly happen.
Our Government years ago brought in mandatory microchipping laws, and microchip numbers can be put on health testing certificates. Also I have heard of inspectors going to Puppy Farms with microchip scanners where they scanned all the dogs, and they also checked records, dog licenses and permits plus other things as well.

Yes the following is interesting including the part I bolded about new owners of any puppy or kitten.

NSW Government
"Animal Welfare Code of Practice Breeding Dogs And Cats"

10.1.2.2 Where a heritable disease is recognised in a breed and where there is screening procedures or a test for that disease the person in charge in the case of a stud cat or dog or bitch or queen should:
• have a current official evaluation or test result for the dog or cat for such hereditary disease;
• provide the official evaluation or test result to the owners where the dog or cat is to be mated to an animal not owned by the breeding facility;
• provide the official evaluation or test result of both the sire and the dam to the new owners of any puppy or kitten;
• endeavour to ensure that the genetic make-up of both sire and dam will not result in an increase in the frequency or severity of known inherited disorders.
.

Bet
8th October 2009, 09:56 AM
Eddy,

There is just one important word wrong in the Code of Practice you describe.

Should , would be better changed to MUST.

EddyAnne
8th October 2009, 01:11 PM
Eddy,

There is just one important word wrong in the Code of Practice you describe.

Should , would be better changed to MUST.
Bet what about this MUST that is at this link address, maybe later MUST may appear in another state of Australia.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/poctaa1986360/s15c.html
.