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jacies
10th October 2009, 04:11 PM
Hi, where I walk my dogs is a very popular lakeside circuit and we get to meet lots of other dogs every day, quite a number of them being Cavaliers. We always stop and talk and particularly as Chaos is usually in her stroller she attracts a lot of attention.
Yesterday we met a lady with a 12 week old black and tan puppy and I asked her where she had got her. She said she had seen an advert in the pet shop and got him from a local person. I told her about Chaos having SM and she had never heard of it although she said she had had Cavaliers before with heart problems. I explained the symptoms so that she would be aware of them because if I had known about SM I would have realised years before that Chaos did not have fleas or hated her coat etc.
Today, I met another lady who had two 2 year old Cavaliers and she had not heard of SM either.
My question is, do you think I am doing the right thing discussing SM with Cavalier owners? After that TV programme quite a number of people with other breeds of dogs that I meet have heard of it.
Judy

Love my Cavaliers
10th October 2009, 04:23 PM
If I had known about SM, Riley would probably have been diagnosed years before she was. So, I would have liked to know about it. I don't think it hurts to give somebody the info that they can tuck away in their brain, hopefully to never use again. But, if their dog does starts showing symptoms later on down the road, maybe they will recall the conversation and get help sooner.

Cathy T
10th October 2009, 04:43 PM
You are absolutely right in telling people you meet about SM. So many Cavaliers go undiagnosed and suffer for so long when owners and vets are baffled as to their behavior. I'm amazed at how many people I meet with Cavaliers who don't know what MVD is.....much less SM. So I try to enlighten owners whenever I can. I think it is our responsibility as responsible pet owners to educate people about the breed.

jasperpaw
10th October 2009, 05:16 PM
I would agree that it is important to talk to other cavalier owners about both SM and MVD as cavaliers are very much drawn to recognizing there own breed we have met lots of people over the years and all have spoken about MVD, we have met a number of owners over the summer months on holiday and while out and about, and have had general chats about health, I was quite shocked in recent months to talk to owners that had young cavaliers and did`nt know what SM was, I found this very worrying.

Karlin
10th October 2009, 05:33 PM
I think information is always helpful. Your information may save some other owner years of confusion and anguish and their dog, months or years of pain. But I think it is all in how it is discussed -- eg not as a way of scaring but informing owners. :thmbsup: I always go through MVD and SM along with other breed-related issues with homes taking my rescue cavaliers. I have never yet had anyone say they had changed their mind or obsess over their dog getting it. I think responsible breeders and rescues should go through all such issues with new owners and discussing breed concerns is a natural enough conversation between cavalier owners, if you meet someone with a cavalier.

Bet
10th October 2009, 05:38 PM
I agree with everything that's been said in the Previous Posts.

I would also say when talking to others about the SM Problem in Cavaliers, emphasis how important it is when getting a Cavalier ,to see a Certificate showing that the Cavalier Breeder has MRI Scanned her Breeding Stock.

I really do think it's up to us Pet Owner Lovers of Cavaliers to get this message across to the Public ,that when wanting to buy a Cavalier always ask to see a Certificate from the Cavalier Breeder to prove that Health Tests are being carried by the Breeder .

With the Membership at 4,000 on this List now, what a great chance we have got.

Tania
10th October 2009, 09:02 PM
I too agree with everything above, I thought I had researched the breed before I got Molly and Dougall, I was very aware of the heart and eye problems but had never heard of sm until I saw it on Pedigree Dogs Exposed! When I saw this tv programme I thought we could never be this unlucky. We were unlucky with both Molly and Dougall. If I had know about sm sooner both dogs would have been diagnosed earlier. I always talk to Cavalier Owners when I meet them and gently discuss this disease without appearing to be a woman obsessed :eek:. So yes I think people should be made aware.

Cathy and Winston
12th October 2009, 05:55 PM
Even though Winston isn't a Cavailer, he's a Pug, talk away. ANY small skulled dog can have SM. I researched Pugs almost to death, and *nothing in my research came up with SM. PDE, eye problems, breathing problems, luxating patellas, hip dysplasia, overcrowded jaws, non stop shedding, all those, but nothing about SM. It wasn't until Winston was diagnosed with SM that I'd ever heard about the disease. I wish someone had told me that any small skulled dog can get it. Talk away, the more educated an owner of any dog is, the better.

Margaret C
13th October 2009, 12:20 AM
If I had known about SM, Riley would probably have been diagnosed years before she was. So, I would have liked to know about it. I don't think it hurts to give somebody the info that they can tuck away in their brain, hopefully to never use again. But, if their dog does starts showing symptoms later on down the road, maybe they will recall the conversation and get help sooner.

It does sometimes seem unkind to worry owners about their pets, but there are so many dogs that suffer because people think that SM symptoms are just their pet's "funny quirky little ways"

There were many SM dogs diagnosed & given pain relief because of the PDE film.
For the sake of the dogs, owners do need to know about the problems in the breed

Bet
13th October 2009, 09:59 AM
Could I just mention that the UK Parliamentary Enquiry will be Published on November 2.

It has already announced that it has found serious problems in Pedigree Dogs.

We Pet Cavalier Owners who have been Broken Hearted because of the suffering of our Cherished Cavaliers,do hope that particular notice will have been paid by the Parliamentary Committee to the Two serious Health Problems afflicting Cavaliers, SM and MVD.

Murphy
13th October 2009, 02:44 PM
Bet,
Please remember that Pet-owners do NOT have a monopoly on being 'Broken-Hearted' . I have recently lost my 7 year-old Ruby dog, Red Alert to MVD.
I still have his mother, auntie,(almost 12) and until recently his grandmother(she was 14).
No heart meds there.
I bred him, so I do not apportion 'blame'. The buck stops right here.
What did I do wrong?
Nothing. These things happen in life. It seems all wrong to me but these things must be coped with.
Life does not always give us what we want but we must be brave enough to soldier on - again and again.
IMO there is nothing productive about apportioning blame; to do so simply eats way at you and prevents you moving on.
Yes, I held him in my arms and looked into his eyes as he went; yes, I watched his tail wag until it could wag no more..................
Yes, I am a breeder - his breeder - and I am broken-hearted . Breeders bleed too....
Elspeth Glen, Sandbrae CKCS, Scotland

MARK MARSHALL
13th October 2009, 03:52 PM
Well written and how so very true.

Regards Mark.

Bet
13th October 2009, 05:43 PM
My complaint is with those Cavalier Breeders who have known for years about the MVD Heart Problem in the Cavalier Breed ,yet persisted to claim ,Heart Trouble what Heart Trouble!!! and continue to Breed from Cavaliers with a Heart or SM conditions.

I think we all know what the UK CKCS CLUB Chairman has said recently on this subject.

Hopefully when the APGAW 's Recommendations are revealed on November 2, a number of Cavalier Breeders Minds will be being Focused on how Cavalier Breeding should be carried out.

Bet
13th October 2009, 06:24 PM
Forgot to say this, I sure will Move on when all Cavalier Breeders are forced to do Mandatory Health Testing for MVD and SM ,so that our Cavaliers will have the chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives.Thank goodness there are now other Cavalier Owners with similar views as mine .

Never thought I would see on the UK CKCS CLUB WEB SITE ,that if a Cavalier Breeder want's to have their Cavalier Puppy on the CKCS Puppy Register , a form has to be completed saying asto whether the Sire and Dam of the Puppy has a Current Health Certificate for both MVD and Eyes.

Hopefully it won't be long before SM will be included in this List.

Murphy
13th October 2009, 07:02 PM
Since losing 'Patrick' I have spoken at great length to my local Cardiologist, in an effort to find out a reason for his untimely death and, as one does in such circumstances, if there was anything I might have done differently.

I am now more convinced than ever, that all cavaliers are genetically programmed to develop MVD, I also believe the same to be true for Syringomyelia.

As I see it, our efforts should now be focussed on finding out why some dogs develop early onset in both diseases, while others do so much later in life, and some, not at all.

This leads us on to an area of extremely complicated genetics which has become the focus of much recent research and was well-documented via the 2 recent programmes broadcast on BBC2 on the Twins.

Best Wishes,
Elspeth Glen

WoodHaven
13th October 2009, 10:02 PM
Bet,
Please remember that Pet-owners do NOT have a monopoly on being 'Broken-Hearted' . I have recently lost my 7 year-old Ruby dog, Red Alert to MVD.
I still have his mother, auntie,(almost 12) and until recently his grandmother(she was 14).
No heart meds there.
I bred him, so I do not apportion 'blame'. The buck stops right here.
What did I do wrong?
Nothing. These things happen in life. It seems all wrong to me but these things must be coped with.
Life does not always give us what we want but we must be brave enough to soldier on - again and again.
IMO there is nothing productive about apportioning blame; to do so simply eats way at you and prevents you moving on.
Yes, I held him in my arms and looked into his eyes as he went; yes, I watched his tail wag until it could wag no more..................
Yes, I am a breeder - his breeder - and I am broken-hearted . Breeders bleed too....
Elspeth Glen, Sandbrae CKCS, Scotland

Very well said Ms. Glen--
I too have had heartbreak and worry that started right at my feet.
I followed the MVD and SM protocol to the letter and got 2 pups with full fledged SM. Both parents MRI'd -- both parents hail and healthy TODAY. Actually the Sire is 10 -- the grandsire 12+ and great grand sire 14+ // ALL MRI'd clear.
Condolences on your loss.

Murphy
13th October 2009, 10:46 PM
Thank you Sandy, and mine to you. As breeders, we will keep trying, in the hope that one day we will get it ALL right.
Elspeth

EddyAnne
13th October 2009, 11:13 PM
I followed the MVD and SM protocol to the letter and got 2 pups with full fledged SM.
That could possibly happen with Hereditary Diseases where DNA testing is NOT available, yes even in regards to MVD, SM/CM, Hip Dysplasia plus a number of other Hereditary Diseases, but I think it tends to be an exception rather than what generally applies.

All the more reason that the focus should be on finding the genes and developing a definitive DNA test that is cost effective and readily available to everyone.

In regards to Legal Liability in some countries, I think that a breeder's defence in case a court case eventuated is to have the appropriate specialist health testing certificates and to have bred according to specialist recommended breeding protocols.
.

WoodHaven
13th October 2009, 11:22 PM
That could possibly happen with Hereditary Diseases where DNA testing is NOT available, yes even in regards to MVD, SM/CM, Hip Dysplasia plus a number of other Hereditary Diseases, but I think it tends to be an exception rather than what generally applies.

All the more reason that the focus should be on finding the genes and developing a definitive DNA test that is cost effective and readily available to everyone.

In regards to Legal Liability in some countries, I think that a breeder's defence in case a court case eventuated is to have the appropriate specialist health testing certificates and to have bred according to specialist recommended breeding protocols.
.

2 out of 2 pups. Quite an exception. I tend to believe (maybe erroneously) that different lines carry different parts of the issue and if you get them all-- you get the disease (also that bad gene combinations just happen)
This was a total outcross-- very low COI 4.5641 .

EddyAnne
14th October 2009, 12:05 AM
Sandy, where I am many have discussed Hereditary Diseases for many years and we have come to the point where State Government Codes of Practice is stepping in with things like breeders should provide Health Certificates when they sell or give away a puppy or kitten, and I have even seen the word MUST used by another State Government where they have Legislation and Codes of Practice regarding Hereditary Diseases for dogs and cats. This is new and it is happening now, and as I previously mentioned, I think that a breeder's defence in case a court case eventuated is to have the appropriate specialist health testing certificates and to have bred according to specialist recommended breeding protocols.
.

WoodHaven
14th October 2009, 12:14 AM
Sandy, where I am many have discussed Hereditary Diseases for many years and we have come to the point where State Government Codes of Practice is stepping in with things like breeders should provide Health Certificates when they sell or give away a puppy or kitten, and I have even seen the word MUST used by another State Government where they have Legislation and Codes of Practice regarding Hereditary Diseases for dogs and cats. This is new and it is happening now, and as I previously mentioned, I think that a breeder's defence in case a court case eventuated is to have the appropriate specialist health testing certificates and to have bred according to specialist recommended breeding protocols.
.

We can no sooner guarantee the health of a dog or cat than we can that of a human baby.
I DO HAVE THE HEALTH CERTIFICATES-- the same ones you preach about. It didn't do this LITTER of pups ANY good. The dogs I have with SM will stay HERE forever because I AM the reason they were born.
I wouldn't bet on 'government' being able to help this issue. Heck, I can't even get two 'specialists' to agree on MY OWN HEALTH issues, let alone possible FUTURE health issues of dogs.

Mom of Jato
14th October 2009, 03:12 AM
Heck, I can't even get two 'specialists' to agree on MY OWN HEALTH issues, let alone possible FUTURE health issues of dogs.

:xctly: Very sad, but I totally agree.

Bet
14th October 2009, 09:34 AM
I have mentioned this before,but here goes again.

The Cavalier Heart Problem has been known about here in Britain since the 1940's.

There were Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble being used at Stud in the 1950's.

I wondered because of this happening then ,and the continual use of Cavaliers with Heart Trouble being Bred from over the years, would this also increase the number of Cavaliers who to-day could be Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes.

I contacted a Researcher at LUPA ,the Team who are Researching for the MVD Gene/Genes in Cavaliers explaining about what had happened in Britain in the early days,
and she agreed that ,yes it was likely there would now be many Cavalier Carriers around with MVD Gene/ Genes.

I would think that about the only hope the Cavalier Breed has for the Future is for the Finding of those Genes.

But at the moment for Cavalier Breeders not to Breed from a Cavalier with a Heart Condition.

It was mentioned about the precautions being taken and the Cavaliers still having a Heart
Problem ,but would not the reason be that those Cavaliers Parents had been Carriers of the MVD Gene.

I can't comment on the SM Problem in our Breed ,I don't know if there was SM in the early days of our Breed, but do know that the Heart Trouble certainly was, and the Cavaliers sure are paying the price to-day. .as we the Broken Hearted Cavalier Owners who have lost our Beloved Cavaliers are such early ages are.

Finally I had also contacted Professor J Bell ,Geneticist, Tufts University America,also explaining all this to him, his reply was that to give the Cavalier Breed a chance at the moment ,Don't Breed from a Cavalier till 2.6 years.

What a pity 8 of the Top Cavalier Stud Dogs in 2008 had been Bred from before reaching 2.6 years.

EddyAnne
14th October 2009, 11:04 AM
We can no sooner guarantee the health of a dog or cat than we can that of a human baby.
I DO HAVE THE HEALTH CERTIFICATES-- the same ones you preach about. It didn't do this LITTER of pups ANY good. The dogs I have with SM will stay HERE forever because I AM the reason they were born.
I wouldn't bet on 'government' being able to help this issue. Heck, I can't even get two 'specialists' to agree on MY OWN HEALTH issues, let alone possible FUTURE health issues of dogs.
Sandy you used the word guarantee I did not. With MVD, SM/CM, Hip Dysplasia plus a number of other Hereditary Diseases where there is NO DNA Testing available then all that breeders can do is the best that they can, which includes using specialist health testing and specialist recommended breeding protocols.

You mentioned "human baby".
Sandy, in human families where SM/CM has been found I think that people are MRI testing and listening to Specialists for I read this 2006 article on a human SM/CM website.
"One of the most common, and pressing, questions Chiari patients have is whether the condition is genetic. Adults are often diagnosed in their late 20's or early 30's when they are planning and starting families, and are naturally concerned about passing it on to their children. When children are diagnosed with Chiari, parents often wonder if they will be able to have families of their own when they grow up without having to worry about passing on Chiari."
If you want to read more here is the link.
http://www.conquerchiari.org/subs%20only/volume%204/issue%204(10)/chiari%20gene%204(10).asp

You mentioned "I DO HAVE THE HEALTH CERTIFICATES".
Sandy I did read that on the previous page and back there I responded.

You mentioned "I can't even get two 'specialists' to agree on MY OWN HEALTH issues."
Sandy I have noticed that too and I also noticed that some do agree. The same tends to happen regarding dogs and MVD, SM/CM, Hip Dysplasia plus a number of other Hereditary Diseases.

You mentioned "I wouldn't bet on 'government' being able to help this issue."
Sandy I think that in time we will see. The Government Legislation and Codes of Practice where I am affects about 60 Breeds with MUST health test breeding dogs for hereditary diseases and that includes following approved breeding programs. For a starter I think that this will be of help regarding Puppy Farms where they also MUST comply with this new Legislation and Codes of Practice.
.

WoodHaven
14th October 2009, 01:45 PM
Sandy you used the word guarantee I did not. With MVD, SM/CM, Hip Dysplasia plus a number of other Hereditary Diseases where there is NO DNA Testing available then all that breeders can do is the best that they can, which includes using specialist health testing and specialist recommended breeding protocols.

You mentioned "human baby".
Sandy, in human families where SM/CM has been found I think that people are MRI testing and listening to Specialists for I read this 2006 article on a human SM/CM website.
"One of the most common, and pressing, questions Chiari patients have is whether the condition is genetic. Adults are often diagnosed in their late 20's or early 30's when they are planning and starting families, and are naturally concerned about passing it on to their children. When children are diagnosed with Chiari, parents often wonder if they will be able to have families of their own when they grow up without having to worry about passing on Chiari."
If you want to read more here is the link.
http://www.conquerchiari.org/subs%20only/volume%204/issue%204(10)/chiari%20gene%204(10).asp (http://www.conquerchiari.org/subs%20only/volume%204/issue%204%2810%29/chiari%20gene%204%2810%29.asp)

You mentioned "I DO HAVE THE HEALTH CERTIFICATES".
Sandy I did read that on the previous page and back there I responded.

You mentioned "I can't even get two 'specialists' to agree on MY OWN HEALTH issues."
Sandy I have noticed that too and I also noticed that some do agree. The same tends to happen regarding dogs and MVD, SM/CM, Hip Dysplasia plus a number of other Hereditary Diseases.

You mentioned "I wouldn't bet on 'government' being able to help this issue."
Sandy I think that in time we will see. The Government Legislation and Codes of Practice where I am affects about 60 Breeds with MUST health test breeding dogs for hereditary diseases and that includes following approved breeding programs. For a starter I think that this will be of help regarding Puppy Farms where they also MUST comply with this new Legislation and Codes of Practice.
.

Just because some specialist 'agree' doesn't make them right either. "They" used to agree that the earth was flat. "They used to agree that the earth was the center of the universe. Amazing how dissenters were often crucified.
I don't believe we should all follow ONE protocol. IF the ''specialists" are WRONG-- are you going to take responsibility for the fall out????

We have a 'famous' family here in the states that made most of their $$$$ from selling black market booze during prohibition. Making a law and being able to enforce it -- two totally different things in real life.

Bet
14th October 2009, 02:11 PM
Eddy, I don't know about you ,but I sure can't make sense of Sandy's argument.

I am with you on the points you are trying to get across to her.

Here is another one for you and others on the List about the SM Problem.

Is known if more Cavaliers with the Pretty Look that so many have to-day are suffering from SM.?

Or could the Cavaliers with the type of Head that they had 20 or so years ago not got so much SM.

Would it be possible to get a Number of Cavaliers MRI scanned with this Pretty Look, and a Number of the Older Type of Head Scanned, and see what the Result is. ?

WoodHaven
14th October 2009, 02:31 PM
Eddy, I don't know about you ,but I sure can't make sense of Sandy's argument.

I am with you on the points you are trying to get across to her.

Here is another one for you and others on the List about the SM Problem.

Is known if more Cavaliers with the Pretty Look that so many have to-day are suffering from SM.?

Or could the Cavaliers with the type of Head that they had 20 or so years ago not got so much SM.

Would it be possible to get a Number of Cavaliers MRI scanned with this Pretty Look, and a Number of the Older Type of Head Scanned, and see what the Result is. ?

You don't understand that experts CAN be wrong (and if you study history, you will see this).
That leading or FORCING everyone down a road that may end up causing more issues would be detrimental.

Bet, I don't know if they bred cavalier in the 1950's that had heart murmurs. That was way before I was born-- but I do know that the war devastated the number dogs available.

Ruth M
14th October 2009, 03:23 PM
I really dont mean to seem controversial I but ..... I work with children with complex needs and life limiting conditions - very often these little ones slip away - I am visiting a 3 year old at the moment with Chiari - he has just had a gastro button fitted as he has stopped eating ......... heartbreaking.

My nearly 3 year old cavi is pretty disabled with SM, luxating pataella and now has a heart murmer. With children - sometimes the risk of conditions just cant be pre-empted. However with cavaliers - to me the risk of an unhealthy dog are just TOO great. I would never again have a cavi pup. In the small village where I live - over half the cavis have severe health problems. None of the dogs are related. My vet recently 'joked' with me ' I used to recommend Cavaliers as a family pet because of their super temperment - now I recommend them as they keep my daughter in private education!' To me - this just said it all!

I am in no way comparing a child with disabilities to an SM cavi - just that we KNOW the risks in advance - and as this thread started with a discussion about discussing SM with perhaps unaware owners I think 'hell yes!' - seeing suffering in any form is debilitating in itself - being a cavi owner is awesome - I love the breed - I truly do - but I think owners should be very aware that the journey may be painful - for the family and the dog.

EddyAnne
14th October 2009, 03:50 PM
Making a law and being able to enforce it -- two totally different things in real life.

Where I am by Government Law the breeder must microchip every pup before selling or giving away the pups, a form is filled in by the breeder plus also by the veterinarian or authorised implanter and then that form is sent to Central Animal Records. In my area I have heard of Inspectors going to Puppy Farms to check things like Dog Licenses and Permits plus they also scanned dogs to see if they have a Microchip.

When someone purchases a pup, another form is filled in by the breeder, that form is then handed to the puppy purchaser where the purchaser must fill in the rest of that form then send it to Central Animal Records this to transfer ownership. If the puppy purchaser does not fill in the form and send it in, Central Animal Records will still have the breeder listed as the owner. In the case of a lost form the puppy purchaser would have to contact the breeder and request them to send another form. We also have Mandatory Dog License Laws, and to obtain a New Dog License there must be Microchip details and if NOT then the New Dog Licenses will NOT be processed and questions will be asked to the puppy owner as to where they obtained their puppy from.

I will still wait and see what happens over my way this even in regards to enforcement.
.

WoodHaven
14th October 2009, 03:56 PM
I really dont mean to seem controversial I but ..... I work with children with complex needs and life limiting conditions - very often these little ones slip away - I am visiting a 3 year old at the moment with Chiari - he has just had a gastro button fitted as he has stopped eating ......... heartbreaking.

My nearly 3 year old cavi is pretty disabled with SM, luxating pataella and now has a heart murmer. With children - sometimes the risk of conditions just cant be pre-empted. However with cavaliers - to me the risk of an unhealthy dog are just TOO great. I would never again have a cavi pup. In the small village where I live - over half the cavis have severe health problems. None of the dogs are related. My vet recently 'joked' with me ' I used to recommend Cavaliers as a family pet because of their super temperment - now I recommend them as they keep my daughter in private education!' To me - this just said it all!

I am in no way comparing a child with disabilities to an SM cavi - just that we KNOW the risks in advance - and as this thread started with a discussion about discussing SM with perhaps unaware owners I think 'hell yes!' - seeing suffering in any form is debilitating in itself - being a cavi owner is awesome - I love the breed - I truly do - but I think owners should be very aware that the journey may be painful - for the family and the dog.

Ruth, I am so sorry for all you and your dog have been through. I hope the breeder of your dog is helping you out.
I hope to never be without a cavalier. I looked through my dogs vet record recently-- many have never been to the vet for anything other than 'routine maintenance'.

EddyAnne
14th October 2009, 04:35 PM
Eddy, I don't know about you ,but I sure can't make sense of Sandy's argument.

I am with you on the points you are trying to get across to her.

Here is another one for you and others on the List about the SM Problem.

Is known if more Cavaliers with the Pretty Look that so many have to-day are suffering from SM.?

Or could the Cavaliers with the type of Head that they had 20 or so years ago not got so much SM.

Would it be possible to get a Number of Cavaliers MRI scanned with this Pretty Look, and a Number of the Older Type of Head Scanned, and see what the Result is. ?

Bet I do not know, maybe later after the genes are found for SM/CM then researchers may start finding some answers. Say like maybe DNA testing other breeds including humans, and in a previous post of this thread where I mentioned humans note in that article Cavaliers are mentioned plus Chromosomes and "Fibrillin-1", also the British Museum has some old skulls plus other things from dogs where maybe Researchers one day might be able to extract some DNA for SM/CM testing.

Here is one for you Bet and maybe something to think about which is on a DNA Laboratory website and the following is at this address.
http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test_prcd_pra.html

"It’s been proven that all breeds being tested for prcd-PRA have the same disease caused by the same mutated gene. This is so, even though the disease might develop at different ages or with differing severity from one breed to another."
.

Murphy
14th October 2009, 05:14 PM
"It’s been proven that all breeds being tested for prcd-PRA have the same disease caused by the same mutated gene. This is so, even though the disease might develop at different ages or with differing severity from one breed to another."
.[/QUOTE]

EddyAnne,

I suspect that the above quote is accurate with reference to our breed and MVD/SM, etc.
The genome scan could discover that all CKCS carry the undesirable gene/genes for both diseases and maybe some of the others also, viz, dry-eye, Episodic Falling, Pancreatic disease to name but a few.

If that is the case, then we have a great deal of work still to do as regards working out the 'why' part.

Why do these diseases develop at different rates and to a different degree of severity within the same family of dogs.

If this is what they find - and I strongly suspect that they will - then all the mandatory testing in the world will not help us.

There is so much more we need to know. The unpredictable results from breeders who have been following all the protocols are proof of this.

It is most certainly, complicated.

Elspeth

Bet
14th October 2009, 06:03 PM
Surely the answer to Cavaliers having SM or MVD ,they've they have those Genes.

Spoke to Dr B Cattanach ,Geneticist, this morning ,explaining about how Cavaliers since the 1940's have had Heart Trouble, and that Cavaliers with Heart Trouble were being used at Stud in those early days , could there now be many Cavaliers around now who were Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes.

He said that the Priority is to find what kind of Gene is causing the MVD Problem in our Breed.But was a bit depressing about what could be being now.

Is it Dominant ,Recessive.?

What he did say about the Cavaliers' SM Problem, I had sent him a couple of years ago about 50 Pedigrees of Cavaliers with SM , and there was next to no In-Breeding in them,that the SM Problem could stem from the alteration in Cavaliers' Heads around 20 years or so ago, that if Cavalier Breeders could change the Type of Head then ,and it was this type that was causing the SM Problem, then it should be quite easy to change back again to the Older Shape of Cavalier Head, but it rests with the willingness of Cavalier Breeders to do this.

EddyAnne
14th October 2009, 06:04 PM
Elspeth yes it is complicated and there is so much more we need to know about many hereditary diseases. Yes it has even been complicated for many years well before DNA testing became available for PRA, yet breeders used whatever the best current means of testing was available back then which was to use Eye Specialist Testing, and which is still used today even for Cavalier eye testings which includes testing for a number of things. And which brings us back to a point such as if there is NO DNA Testing available then all that breeders can do is the best that they can, which includes using specialist health testing and specialist recommendations or breeding protocols.
.

Bet
14th October 2009, 06:28 PM
Ruth M ,

I was so sorry to read your Post, and about the Cavaliers in your Village having Health Problems, that is why I do feel that there is no excuse for Cavalier Breeders not doing Health Tests on their Breeding Stock.

OK , you can't find out the Carriers , but surely it's not too much to ask the majority of Cavalier Breeders to abide by the CKCS CLUB's Breeding Guidelines which have been Recommended by the Experts and Researchers.

Don't Breed from a Cavalier before 2.6 years, and the Grand-Parents have a Clear Heart Certificate at 5.

As I said in my earlier Post, that 8 of the Top Cavalier Stud Dogs in 2008 had been Bred from before they were 2.6 years of age.

No wonder Simon Swift said at the recent UK CKCS CLUB AGM that 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 ,and this is NO BETTER than it was 18 years ago.

So I would think that remedy to improve the MVD Problem in Cavaliers is in the Hands of the Cavalier Breeders.

WoodHaven
14th October 2009, 06:37 PM
Ruth M ,

I was so sorry to read your Post, and about the Cavaliers in your Village having Health Problems, that is why I do feel that there is no excuse for Cavalier Breeders not doing Health Tests on their Breeding Stock.

OK , you can't find out the Carriers , but surely it's not too much to ask the majority of Cavalier Breeders to abide by the CKCS CLUB's Breeding Guidelines which have been Recommended by the Experts and Researchers.

Don't Breed from a Cavalier before 2.6 years, and the Grand-Parents have a Clear Heart Certificate at 5.

As I said in my earlier Post, that 8 of the Top Cavalier Stud Dogs in 2008 had been Bred from before they were 2.6 years of age.

No wonder Simon Swift said at the recent UK CKCS CLUB AGM that 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 ,and this is NO BETTER than it was 18 years ago.

So I would think that remedy to improve the MVD Problem in Cavaliers is in the Hands of the Cavalier Breeders.

What is 2.6 years?? Do you mean 2 and a half years or ??
2.6 years is like 2 years 7 months and 1 week??

Yorkysue
14th October 2009, 07:50 PM
Ruth M ,

OK , you can't find out the Carriers , but surely it's not too much to ask the majority of Cavalier Breeders to abide by the CKCS CLUB's Breeding Guidelines which have been Recommended by the Experts and Researchers.

Don't Breed from a Cavalier before 2.6 years, and the Grand-Parents have a Clear Heart Certificate at 5.

As I said in my earlier Post, that 8 of the Top Cavalier Stud Dogs in 2008 had been Bred from before they were 2.6 years of age.

No wonder Simon Swift said at the recent UK CKCS CLUB AGM that 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 ,and this is NO BETTER than it was 18 years ago.

So I would think that remedy to improve the MVD Problem in Cavaliers is in the Hands of the Cavalier Breeders.

Bet

The Top stud dogs only produce a infinitesimally small fraction of the puppies born in the UK. In fact they are usually only used by people who show their dogs. I know you don't seem to believe this, but most of the show people test their dogs, especially for hearts, as there is free heart testing at most of the shows.

The problem with MVD & SM is that although people can test, and use only clear stock; until more is known, there will still be pups produced with these defects, from parents/grandparents that are clear. There are no stats that show whether, or by how much, the proportion of affected pups will reduce by carrying out this regime. And I guess there will be no way of finding out or monitoring it.

As for using a stud dog before 2.5 yrs old, OK it happens, but I bet that the top stud dogs that were used before 2.5yrs old are still clear of heart problems because they are still being used! And whatever you might think, health conscious exhibitors are not going to use a dog with a murmer, unless he is an older dog - ie 7yrs+ who has a v.slight murmer that developed later in life.They want to breed healthy dogs.

It's the breeders that churn out puppies by the bucket load, who don't test that are more likely to produce pups with health problems.

Pat
14th October 2009, 10:02 PM
Sue wrote: The problem with MVD & SM is that although people can test, and use only clear stock; until more is known, there will still be pups produced with these defects, from parents/grandparents that are clear. There are no stats that show whether, or by how much, the proportion of affected pups will reduce by carrying out this regime. And I guess there will be no way of finding out or monitoring it.
----------------------------------------------------

Guess you haven't read this study, huh?

Relationship Between Parental Cardiac Status in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels and Prevalence and Severity of Chronic Valvular Disease in Offspring. Swenson L, Häggström J, Kvart C, Juneja RK. JAVMA 1996, Jan; 208(12): 2009-2012.

The goal is not to eliminate MVD from the breed (an impossible task) but to move the age of onset higher and to increase the lifespan of the breed to that age common in similar sized dogs. Thus the protocol has to do with the age of onset of heart murmur of parents and grandparents rather than whether a Cavalier is clear or not clear of a murmur at the time of mating - two different things.

Pat

Karlin
14th October 2009, 10:55 PM
The Top stud dogs only produce a infinitesimally small fraction of the puppies born in the UK.

But their genes influence the breed in a massive way for generations and generations, ALL cavaliers as their offspring will eventually be the dogs bred by BYBs and puppy farms and the next door neighbour not least as so few breeders in the UK sell dogs on limited registrations and so few are ever on spay/neuter contracts so people just breed nonregistered litters. That is why there's a serious concern about the limited genetic diversity now in the ENTIRE breed -- those stud dogs are used so excessively that you end up with dogs -- show or pet, from show breeders or puppy farms or BYBs -- extremely closely related. The problem is that most people just look at 3-5 generation pedigrees. Go further back and you see dogs are bred to direct relatives or peripheral relatives all over the place.


The problem with MVD & SM is that although people can test, and use only clear stock; until more is known, there will still be pups produced with these defects, from parents/grandparents that are clear. There are no stats that show whether, or by how much, the proportion of affected pups will reduce by carrying out this regime. And I guess there will be no way of finding out or monitoring it.


This simply is not true -- Pat has noted one of the studies on MVD and twice now there have been presentations on the results coming back from the only monitored breeding programme for SM which is CLEARLY showing clear dogs produce far more clear or good grade offspring whereas D and F dogs produce none to date.

As well, this statement is irrelevant: producing clear offspring when the twin problems are already so dire is not, and sadly probably never can be the ultimate goal -- as Pat says, and any cardiologist or neurologist will confirm (and as breed clubs themselves state): the goal is to limit severity and age of onset, both very achievable according to specialists... IF breeders would test. MOST Uk breeders do NOT adequately heart test -- they still vet test rather than go to cardiologists. The UK club's own cardiologist, Simon Swift, has made a formal statement that hearts have NOT improved at all in the CLUB bred cavaliers over more than a decade of a supposed heart programme being in place because breeders do NOT test enough and mostly vet test, and generally don't test older dogs to see age of MVD onset (or don't make those test results public when they do). The Healthy Hearts list of older dogs with 'clear' hearts had to be changed recently -- FINALLY! -- to remove all the many, many dogs placed on the list that were only vet tested and require cardio certs in future. Why they were ever allowed in the first place is a mystery when for well over a decade it has been widely recognised in many clubs that vets offer little more than a 50/50 chance of accurately diagnosing a low grade murmur -- so you might as well flip a coin as use a vet auscultation as the basis of breeding.

The UK club decided nonetheless NOT to make cardiologist testing mandatory and only gently encourages it (in contrast to the US clubs which at least strongly push cardiologist testing and view vet certs on hearts as virtually useless, especially as a breeding tool).

Margaret C
15th October 2009, 12:29 AM
Bet

The Top stud dogs only produce a infinitesimally small fraction of the puppies born in the UK. In fact they are usually only used by people who show their dogs. I know you don't seem to believe this, but most of the show people test their dogs, especially for hearts, as there is free heart testing at most of the shows.

The problem with MVD & SM is that although people can test, and use only clear stock; until more is known, there will still be pups produced with these defects, from parents/grandparents that are clear. There are no stats that show whether, or by how much, the proportion of affected pups will reduce by carrying out this regime. And I guess there will be no way of finding out or monitoring it.

As for using a stud dog before 2.5 yrs old, OK it happens, but I bet that the top stud dogs that were used before 2.5yrs old are still clear of heart problems because they are still being used! And whatever you might think, health conscious exhibitors are not going to use a dog with a murmer, unless he is an older dog - ie 7yrs+ who has a v.slight murmer that developed later in life.They want to breed healthy dogs.

It's the breeders that churn out puppies by the bucket load, who don't test that are more likely to produce pups with health problems.


I owned a UK top stud dog. In the 1990s, for five years, he and Ch Lymrey Scandal of Ricksbury vied for the Cavalier Club Best Stud Dog trophy.

Monty (Ch Mareve Indiana ) had 8 UK champions and is one of the top producing dogs since cavaliers were recognised. He had champions in countries all over the world.
You will find him in most pedigrees worldwide because his descendants also became top stud dogs.
You will also find him behind some puppy farm dogs because some of his descendants also ended up in the hands of puppy farmers.
Top stud dogs have an enormous influence on the health of a breed.Unfortunately, although I did not know it, Monty had syringomyelia and he passed it to many of his offspring.

Relatively few top show breeders heart tested before the PDE film, and they certainly did not use the heart protocol which should drive up the age of MVD onset in the breed, if it was used properly.

They are testing more now, but if you look at the litters being produced now you will see that underage cavaliers are still routinely being used for breeding, even by club health representatives, and you are wrong about top stud dogs still being heart clear because they are used early; They are showing up with MVD at 4 years old.
A dog used at stud at a year old will produce puppies that are being used when he is only two years old. How far are those faulty genes spread through his children, grandchildren, even great grandchildren, by the time he is four?

There are some statistics that show the proportion of affected offspring will be reduced by following the specialist's guidelines, but there is not enough evidence, simply because breeders will not provide the data by actually putting the breed first. Only by breeders using the protocols will 'more be known'

Show breeders do want to produce healthy dogs, and they would do so if they could do it without compromising on the desirable show qualities they want in their puppies. They may say they are health conscious but they will still put 'type' first.


It's the breeders that churn out puppies by the bucket load, who don't test that are more likely to produce pups with health problems.

I doubt whether that is always true, I suspect SM is worse in cavaliers bred by show breeders that closely line breed.

The fact is that cavalier club members should stop using puppy farmers and BYBs as an excuse. Once they are scrupulous about their own breeding, then they can afford to criticise others.

Bet
15th October 2009, 09:28 AM
What is the difference between Cavalier BYB's, Cavalier Puppy Farmers,who don't do Health Tests for SM and MVD on their Cavalier Breeding Stock, and CKCS CLUB MEMBERS who also don't do those Tests .

Is it 6 of One and half -a -dozen of the Other.How can those Cavalier Club Breeders who don't abide by the UK CKCS CLUB's Breeding Guidelines ,be any different .

TO Sandy 2.6 years is two years and 6 months, it was easier for me doing 2.6 years, thought every- body would understand what I meant.

Thank -you Karlin and Margaret for your Posts,I would think that many of the Cavalier Breeders' Cavaliers,will be going to Cavalier Pet Owners Homes .as do a good number of their Cavaliers when their Showing and Breeding days are over.

Yorkysue
15th October 2009, 10:47 AM
What is the difference between Cavalier BYB's, Cavalier Puppy Farmers,who don't do Health Tests for SM and MVD on their Cavalier Breeding Stock, and CKCS CLUB MEMBERS who also don't do those Tests .

Is it 6 of One and half -a -dozen of the Other.How can those Cavalier Club Breeders who don't abide by the UK CKCS CLUB's Breeding Guidelines ,be any different .

TO Sandy 2.6 years is two years and 6 months, it was easier for me doing 2.6 years, thought every- body would understand what I meant.

Thank -you Karlin and Margaret for your Posts,I would think that many of the Cavalier Breeders' Cavaliers,will be going to Cavalier Pet Owners Homes .as do a good number of their Cavaliers when their Showing and Breeding days are over.

Bet

As far as the difference between Puppy Farmers/BYB's and Club members that don't test goes; I guess you are referring to this apect alone in your sweeping statement above; and I agree; all should test and I would hope that club members would make the effort to test if they cared about the breed. But I think there is a world of difference between the two as far as care of stock and rearing of puppies is concerned!!!!!!!!!

Picking up on the previous posts - Neither of the two major health problems in cavaliers are going to be easy to breed out as you say they have evolved from a small gene pool originally, ergo both these defects have probably been there all along.- without poeple knowing at first.

So it could be that the breeders that are testing will find their stock improving over time? But there will still not be noticable improvements to the health of cavaliers for years.

I still say that the BYB and PFs are the one who produce pups that are in v.ill health. This is obvious from posts about the rescue centres like Many Tears, who often have ex breeding bitches with heart problems! and pups that are very sick. And this won't change overnight. These are the people who churn out the pups, not the club members.

Yorkysue
15th October 2009, 10:50 AM
Karlin, you mentioned a study or breeding programme that has/is being carried out into the effects of breeding from SM free stock.

Could you point me in the direction of this study and where I can read it?

Thankyou

Bet
15th October 2009, 11:50 AM
I think we all know about the way Puppy Farmers keep their Animals .It breaks your heart to read about it

That has nothing to do with my argument about some Cavalier Breeders not Health Testing their Breeding Stock ,being any different from Puppy Farmers and BYB not Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock and making remarks about those People.

What is the difference?

WoodHaven
15th October 2009, 01:01 PM
Sorry Bet.. I didn't know if you READ something that actually said that breeders should now wait 2.6 years or if 2.5 was still on the recommendations. You do tend to make your own up as you go.

IF you grievances are really about dogs 'suffering' vs. waiting until a dog is 2.5 years to breed for breeding recommendations-- there is a huge difference between puppymillers breeding EVERY season vs. breeding a known line early.

Ms. Carter-- Popular Sire Syndrome has been around since the dawn of time-- the diseases they populate are just different.

Margaret C
15th October 2009, 02:13 PM
Ms. Carter-- Popular Sire Syndrome has been around since the dawn of time-- the diseases they populate are just different.

Most people on this list call me Margaret.

I'm afraid I do not quite understand the point of your remark?
I was using my own experience to answer Yorkysue's statement................

"The Top stud dogs only produce a infinitesimally small fraction of the puppies born in the UK. In fact they are usually only used by people who show their dogs"

I am quite willing to debate the popular sire syndrome and whether it is a desirable breeding practice considering the effect it can have in reducing gene pools and spreading inherited conditions, but we probably should start another thread?

Bet
15th October 2009, 02:48 PM
Sandy, just curious, are you in an American CKCS Club ,that like our UK CKCS CLUB , if a Cavalier Breeder want's to have a Cavalier on the Club's Puppy Register needs to fill in the form giving information asto whether the Parents have a Current Heart and Eye Certificate.

I would think that should answer your question as to whether the Cavalier Breeder has a Cavalier Puppy for sale, whether the Sire and Dam has been Bred from before TWO AND a HALF YEARS.

Don't you support this Breeding Guideance from Researchers and Geneticists for combating those two serious Problems SM and MVD afflicting Cavaliers.?What do you suggest should be being done. ?

I do know that when I contacted Professor J .Bell ,Geneticist ,Tufts University, America, asking about whether there are now so many Cavalier Carriers of the MVD Problem around now,what is the answer , NOT MADE UP, his reply to me was ,the only chance the Cavalier Breed has ,is as Pat said, DON'T Breed from a Cavalier till Two and a Half years of age, the way forward is to try and up the age of MVD occurring.

Bet
15th October 2009, 03:02 PM
Sorry about this Folks ,but I have really got to answer Sandy's Post ,where I've just noticed her claim about Breeding early from a Cavalier Line with no Heart Trouble, I've collected over 400 Pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble, still to find a Cavalier Line with no Heart Trouble in it.

Sandy, can you give the number of how many Lines that you know about that have had no Heart Trouble in them.

I am sure The Cardiologists Researching into the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed would be interested in your information.

WoodHaven
15th October 2009, 03:09 PM
Sandy, just curious, are you in an American CKCS Club ,that like our UK CKCS CLUB , if a Cavalier Breeder want's to have a Cavalier on the Club's Puppy Register needs to fill in the form giving information asto whether the Parents have a Current Heart and Eye Certificate.

I would think that should answer your question as to whether the Cavalier Breeder has a Cavalier Puppy for sale, whether the Sire and Dam has been Bred from before TWO AND a HALF YEARS.

Don't you support this Breeding Guideance from Researchers and Geneticists for combating those two serious Problems SM and MVD afflicting Cavaliers.?What do you suggest should be being done. ?

I do know that when I contacted Professor J .Bell ,Geneticist ,Tufts University, America, asking about whether there are now so many Cavalier Carriers of the MVD Problem around now,what is the answer , NOT MADE UP, his reply to me was ,the only chance the Cavalier Breed has ,is as Pat said, DON'T Breed from a Cavalier till Two and a Half years of age, the way forward is to try and up the age of MVD occurring.


I am a member of the CKCSC, USA-- No they don't require ANY proof of anything beyond my being a member of good standing and my dogs are properly registered with the club.

I am a member of the CKCSC-GC - a local cavalier club. No they don't require any proof of anything beyond my being a member in good standing.

I am not a member of the ACKCSC-- THE official cavalier breed club of the AKC. I don't believe that that club requires proof of any testing either.

I don't need to put ANYTHING on a puppy register to home puppies. I get calls, sometimes daily. MOST of the callers don't know about health testing and I am sometimes the first one to discuss them with them. Many callers don't care about health testing. They are looking for a cheap puppy. A cheap puppy here is about $1000-1500.00USD.

I have found flaws with the breeding protocol.
I have a friend that had a cavalier pass it's heart exam at 5.5 years-- the dog died of MVD before 6.5 years. According to the breeding protocol-- this is FINE.
I have another friend that had a dog get a murmur at 4-- neutered immediately and taken out of the breeding program. He died at 14 -- NOT of MVD. Acccording to the breeding protocol-- this dog shouldn't have been used.

A badly gene flawed dog can phenotypically look fine.
A wonderfully gened dog can look not so good.

WoodHaven
15th October 2009, 03:22 PM
Sorry about this Folks ,but I have really got to answer Sandy's Post ,where I've just noticed her claim about Breeding early from a Cavalier Line with no Heart Trouble, I've collected over 400 Pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble, still to find a Cavalier Line with no Heart Trouble in it.

Sandy, can you give the number of how many Lines that you know about that have had no Heart Trouble in them.

I am sure The Cardiologists Researching into the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed would be interested in your information.

Your sarcasm is noted! I am the queen of sarcasm, so I guess I can't complain.
NOT--- no heart problems---- IF a breeder is looking at the sire and dam. granddam and great dam -- all healthy and knows that 3 direct generations have done well-- they might be tempted to breed a dog earlier than 2.5 years.
SOME breeders have noted that waiting until a dog is 2 1/2 can make it more difficult. Some dogs are easy breeder/some very difficult breeder anyway- so who knows. I only have one boy that has been bred and he is CHIC'd with MRI.

My first cavalier has a 16 year old great grand dam and an almost 15 year old dam still alive and well. THIS is what I like to hear. THIS is what I am hoping for. Alive and well into their mid teens.

Yorkysue
15th October 2009, 04:00 PM
I had sent him a couple of years ago about 50 Pedigrees of Cavaliers with SM , and there was next to no In-Breeding in them,that the SM Problem could stem from the alteration in Cavaliers' Heads around 20 years or so ago, that if Cavalier Breeders could change the Type of Head then ,and it was this type that was causing the SM Problem, then it should be quite easy to change back again to the Older Shape of Cavalier Head, but it rests with the willingness of Cavalier Breeders to do this.

Bet

I'm intrigued by your statement above, re that a couple of years ago you sent off about 50 pedigrees of dogs with SM.
However, isn't it only recently that you have acknowledged that SM is a problem in the breed. Surely, if you had 50 pedigrees of dogs with confirmed SM 2yrs ago, wouldn't alarm bells have been ringing then?

Also you remark on the change of head shape about 20 yrs ago, has this been proved? and also had all the 50 dogs with SM that you had pedigrees for got the altered skull shape?

WoodHaven
15th October 2009, 04:22 PM
I doubt whether that is always true, I suspect SM is worse in cavaliers bred by show breeders that closely line breed.



I am confused-- wouldn't line breeding on dogs that have been cleared (MRI'd) produce more clear (in theory)? Isn't that what some breeders are banking on??

*Pauline*
15th October 2009, 04:40 PM
Also you remark on the change of head shape about 20 yrs ago, has this been proved?

Haven't they got smaller?

Pat
15th October 2009, 04:45 PM
Sandy wrote: I have found flaws with the breeding protocol.
I have a friend that had a cavalier pass it's heart exam at 5.5 years-- the dog died of MVD before 6.5 years. According to the breeding protocol-- this is FINE.
I have another friend that had a dog get a murmur at 4-- neutered immediately and taken out of the breeding program. He died at 14 -- NOT of MVD. Acccording to the breeding protocol-- this dog shouldn't have been used.
-------------------------------
Sandy,

There are always anomalies to any generality - but there is a difference between an anomaly to a protocol versus a "flaw" in a protocol. In general, the earlier that a Cavalier develops a heart murmur, the shorter his/her lifespan. BUT, the rate of progression of MVD in individual Cavaliers is quite variable as we all know. Some of that variability is likely genetic and some is environmental - including what resources and motivation the owner has (access to cardiologist, motivation to keep weight good, knowledge about alternative care, for example) - and some, I'm convinced, is just plain luck!

My Darby is a perfect example - his breeder neutered him when he was diagnosed with a murmur at 18 months at a heart clinic, and he was placed in a pet home. He was euthanized at 15 yrs, 2 mos due to quality of life issues (senile, blind, deaf as well as some neurological disorder) without ever going into heart failure. (It was good that he was pulled from the breeding pool as he also had bilateral juvenile cataracts.)

But this doesn't mean that we should just give up and ignore the MVD breeding protocol and let everyone do as they please. We must have some scheme in place (and this one was recommended by a group of cardiologists) in order to make ANY kind of progress. This means that some Cavaliers will be left in the breeding pool that probably should not be there and some Cavaliers will be culled when they should not be. But the majority will be appropriately placed and even more so the succeeding generations. I know some breeders in the US who have made wonderful progress within their program by following the protocol. I think that amazing progress could be made within a few generations if all of the club breeders around the world adhered to the protocol. I believe that the difference in longevity between these Cavaliers and puppy mill/BYB Cavaliers would become known to pet purchasers, particularly those who are not purchasing their first Cavalier as they are generally more knowledgeable about the breed.

Best,


Pat

WoodHaven
15th October 2009, 04:50 PM
Sandy wrote: I have found flaws with the breeding protocol.
I have a friend that had a cavalier pass it's heart exam at 5.5 years-- the dog died of MVD before 6.5 years. According to the breeding protocol-- this is FINE.
I have another friend that had a dog get a murmur at 4-- neutered immediately and taken out of the breeding program. He died at 14 -- NOT of MVD. Acccording to the breeding protocol-- this dog shouldn't have been used.
-------------------------------
Sandy,

There are always anomalies to any generality - but there is a difference between an anomaly to a protocol versus a "flaw" in a protocol. In general, the earlier that a Cavalier develops a heart murmur, the shorter his/her lifespan. BUT, the rate of progression of MVD in individual Cavaliers is quite variable as we all know. Some of that variability is likely genetic and some is environmental - including what resources and motivation the owner has (access to cardiologist, motivation to keep weight good, knowledge about alternative care, for example) - and some, I'm convinced, is just plain luck!

My Darby is a perfect example - his breeder neutered him when he was diagnosed with a murmur at 18 months at a heart clinic, and he was placed in a pet home. He was euthanized at 15 yrs, 2 mos due to quality of life issues (senile, blind, deaf as well as some neurological disorder) without ever going into heart failure. (It was good that he was pulled from the breeding pool as he also had bilateral juvenile cataracts.)

But this doesn't mean that we should just give up and ignore the MVD breeding protocol and let everyone do as they please. We must have some scheme in place (and this one was recommended by a group of cardiologists) in order to make ANY kind of progress. This means that some Cavaliers will be left in the breeding pool that probably should not be there and some Cavaliers will be culled when they should not be. But the majority will be appropriately placed and even more so the succeeding generations. I know some breeders in the US who have made wonderful progress within their program by following the protocol. I think that amazing progress could be made within a few generations if all of the club breeders around the world adhered to the protocol. I believe that the difference in longevity between these Cavaliers and puppy mill/BYB Cavaliers would become known to pet purchasers, particularly those who are not purchasing their first Cavalier as they are generally more knowledgeable about the breed.

Best,


Pat

Well, many breeders have noted the same anomaly. I'd much rather have a dog with a asymptomatic murmur at 4 and live a long life, than a clear dog at 5+ dead before 7. The flaw is that dogs that died before 7 would still be within the protocol. Is that what we want?? I'd rather have LONG lived dogs in my dogs pedigree-- even if the breeder did breed their great grand dams at 2 instead of 2.5.




I took in 9 dogs for heart tests-- 5 were 5 and OLDER-- only two had any murmur -- neither were under 5.

EddyAnne
15th October 2009, 05:52 PM
I am a member of the CKCSC, USA-- No they don't require ANY proof of anything beyond my being a member of good standing and my dogs are properly registered with the club.

CKCSC-USA members are required to provide certificate proof for this if they want to register a litter and I think the purpose for this is to maintain the integrity of the Pedigree Register.
http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/ckcsc_inc.nsf/Founded-1954/breederdna.html

CKCSC-USA DNA policy

To All Stud Dog Owners And Breeders

Please be aware that as of January 1, 2005 DNA profiles will be required for ALL sires and dams for ALL CKCSC, USA litter applications. No CKCSC, USA applications to register a litter submitted after January 1, 2005 will be processed without this DNA information on both parents. DNA profiles need only to be submitted once as they will be kept on file with the CKCSC, USA registration office. (please submit a copy of the certificate that is issued to the registration office)

IMPORTANT
As of January 1, 2007, the only DNA lab that we will accept DNA profiles (certificates), is the AKC Lab

If you have any questions about DNA testing or if this policy will apply to your dog or your litter, please contact the registration office.

AKC DNA Diagnostic lab information.
www.akc.org
919-233-9767
cost prepaid 35.00 otherwise 40.00
turn around time 8-10 weeks.
American Kennel Club
5580 Centerview Dr.
Ste 200
Raleigh, NC 27606
.

WoodHaven
15th October 2009, 06:05 PM
CKCSC-USA members are required to provide certificate proof for this if they want to register a litter and I think the purpose for this is to maintain the integrity of the Pedigree Register.
http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/ckcsc_inc.nsf/Founded-1954/breederdna.html

CKCSC-USA DNA policy

To All Stud Dog Owners And Breeders

Please be aware that as of January 1, 2005 DNA profiles will be required for ALL sires and dams for ALL CKCSC, USA litter applications. No CKCSC, USA applications to register a litter submitted after January 1, 2005 will be processed without this DNA information on both parents. DNA profiles need only to be submitted once as they will be kept on file with the CKCSC, USA registration office. (please submit a copy of the certificate that is issued to the registration office)

IMPORTANT
As of January 1, 2007, the only DNA lab that we will accept DNA profiles (certificates), is the AKC Lab

If you have any questions about DNA testing or if this policy will apply to your dog or your litter, please contact the registration office.

AKC DNA Diagnostic lab information.
www.akc.org (http://www.akc.org)
919-233-9767
cost prepaid 35.00 otherwise 40.00
turn around time 8-10 weeks.
American Kennel Club
5580 Centerview Dr.
Ste 200
Raleigh, NC 27606
.

I answered Bet's question about what it took to be on the puppy register. A member in good standing and registered dogs.

This isn't a health cert. It is a cheek swab.

Bet
15th October 2009, 06:11 PM
YorkieSue,

Be intrigued no longer!.

Around 5-6 years ago when SM was making it's appearance in our Cavalier Breed ,I was helping Dr C Rusbridge ,Neurologist, and Penny Knowler for about 1 and a half years with the Cavalier Pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from SM.They were Researching into the Problem.This was when my trouble started with certain Cavalier Breeders ,I was their Blue Eyed Girl,at that time,I could'nt make sense of the SM Problem. and unfortunately said so. Then when I realized how wrong I was in what I was saying, and that SM is such a serious Disease to be afflicting our Breed I sure am still paying the price to-day .

No ,it was'nt any of those Cavalier Pedigrees that I sent to Dr Cattanach, I had obtained them from the Internet , they were on for a couple of days then with- drawn.

Now onto your comment about the change of Cavaliers Heads, I don't know how long you have been involved with the Cavalier Breed , I have been a Cavalier Pet Owner, and as I have mentioned that in the late 80's -early 90's the Cavaliers were being Bred with Smaller Heads, no idea whether any of the Cavaliers' pedigrees with SM had Large or Small Heads, some of those Pedigrees had come from America.

All I know is that Dr Rusbridge has discussed the Minaturizing of Cavaliers in her Thesis ..published 2007, perhaps you should get a Copy and read it, failing that ,read Dr Rusbridge's Veterinary Web Site.

WoodHaven
15th October 2009, 06:15 PM
YorkieSue,

Be intrigued no longer!.

Around 5-6 years ago when SM was making it's appearance in our Cavalier Breed ,I was helping Dr C Rusbridge ,Neurologist, and Penny Knowler for about 1 and a half years with the Cavalier Pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from SM.They were Researching into the Problem.This was when my trouble started with certain Cavalier Breeders ,I was their Blue Eyed Girl,at that time,I could'nt make sense of the SM Problem. and unfortunately said so. Then when I realized how wrong I was in what I was saying, and that SM is such a serious Disease to be afflicting our Breed I sure am still paying the price to-day .

No ,it was'nt any of those Cavalier Pedigrees that I sent to Dr Cattanach, I had obtained them from the Internet , they were on for a couple of days then with- drawn.

Now onto your comment about the change of Cavaliers Heads, I don't know how long you have been involved with the Cavalier Breed , I have been a Cavalier Pet Owner, and as I have mentioned that in the late 80's -early 90's the Cavaliers were being Bred with Smaller Heads, no idea whether any of the Cavaliers' pedigrees with SM had Large or Small Heads, some of those Pedigrees had come from America.

All I know is that Dr Rusbridge has discussed the Minaturizing of Cavaliers in her Thesis ..published 2007, perhaps you should get a Copy and read it, failing that ,read Dr Rusbridge's Veterinary Web Site.

Bet-- How long ago did you own cavaliers?
What age did they die?

Just wondering how someone could become so soured on a breed for YEARS and not currently own one.

Pat
15th October 2009, 06:21 PM
Well, many breeders have noted the same anomaly. I'd much rather have a dog with a asymptomatic murmur at 4 and live a long life, than a clear dog at 5+ dead before 7. The flaw is that dogs that died before 7 would still be within the protocol. Is that what we want?? I'd rather have LONG lived dogs in my dogs pedigree-- even if the breeder did breed their great grand dams at 2 instead of 2.5.
-------------------------
OK, this illustrates why I don't engage in these debates - and I'll go back to my practice!

I obviously failed to make my point in the difference between an anomaly (or statistical fluke) and a flaw (or error) in any program. We have ALL noted this anomaly if we've been paying attention, and we're not all breeders! Most people know about bell curves in statistics - there is a huge group that falls mostly within the norm and a few individuals who will be on the far left and the far right of the curve (far left being early murmur/long living and far right being late murmur/early death).

Um, I think everyone would choose the long-living versus dead dog!!

Do we want a few short-lived dogs within the protocol? If a "no" answer means that the protocol is scrapped, then my answer is "yes, I want those dogs in the protocol because I want to HAVE a protocol designed by experts." And I know that successive generations will correct for this statistical anomaly pretty quickly. If we scrap the protocol because of these individual dogs who don't follow the general rule, then we've got nothing. A good excuse if people are looking for an excuse to dump the protocol, but not valid for me. (And actually, I think that you follow the protocol so not valid for you either!) And, the protocol only deals with parents and grandparents of a litter - doesn't go back further than that.

Pat

WoodHaven
15th October 2009, 06:41 PM
Well, many breeders have noted the same anomaly. I'd much rather have a dog with a asymptomatic murmur at 4 and live a long life, than a clear dog at 5+ dead before 7. The flaw is that dogs that died before 7 would still be within the protocol. Is that what we want?? I'd rather have LONG lived dogs in my dogs pedigree-- even if the breeder did breed their great grand dams at 2 instead of 2.5.
-------------------------
OK, this illustrates why I don't engage in these debates - and I'll go back to my practice!

I obviously failed to make my point in the difference between an anomaly (or statistical fluke) and a flaw (or error) in any program. We have ALL noted this anomaly if we've been paying attention, and we're not all breeders! Most people know about bell curves in statistics - there is a huge group that falls mostly within the norm and a few individuals who will be on the far left and the far right of the curve (far left being early murmur/long living and far right being late murmur/early death).

Um, I think everyone would choose the long-living versus dead dog!!

Do we want a few short-lived dogs within the protocol? If a "no" answer means that the protocol is scrapped, then my answer is "yes, I want those dogs in the protocol because I want to HAVE a protocol designed by experts." And I know that successive generations will correct for this statistical anomaly pretty quickly. If we scrap the protocol because of these individual dogs who don't follow the general rule, then we've got nothing. A good excuse if people are looking for an excuse to dump the protocol, but not valid for me. (And actually, I think that you follow the protocol so not valid for you either!) And, the protocol only deals with parents and grandparents of a litter - doesn't go back further than that.

Pat

I defend what I don't practice-- YES. I can see value in following other theories. Nature tends to thrive due to diversity-- not conformity.
I follow the MVD protocol and because of following the protocol I have a beautiful girl that is over 5 heart clear/CERF-- prelimed good hips, MRI clear that I spent a year and a half trying to get in whelp. Now I would be too fearful to breed her-- she is likely too old to safely whelp. The first time she came into season after 2 1/2 -- she was 3.
She is the last of her line for me.

The protocol being short sighted is another issue-- it is also doesn't delve deep enough into the pedigree (littermate health, history of dogs in the pedigree). To me, this should have some value.

Bet
15th October 2009, 06:52 PM
Sandy , I still collect the ages of Long Lived Cavaliers, in fact I contacted the UK CKCS CLUB about a year ago ,asking if they'd think about putting a List of Long Lived Cavaliers onto their WEB SITE, if you check it you will they agreed to my request.

I don't think just,because we don't have any Cavaliers now ,but have given a home to SUSY ,a bit of every-thing ,who we got from the Scottish Dog and Cat Home, that should be hindering me in still having a love of Cavaliers, and having the memories of our Cherished Cavaliers
who are no longer with us. All our Cavaliers are really still with us ,they are buried on our Land.

Sandy ,if you are ever in London. Go to the Kennel Club Library ,where you will see the List of around 2,000 Cavaliers of 12 years and upwards, and 5 generation Cavalier Pedigrees from 1929- 1945,all written out by hand, that I have given the Library,

I don't think that is the work of a Person who is Soured with the Cavalier Breed.

EddyAnne
15th October 2009, 08:09 PM
OK, this illustrates why I don't engage in these debates - and I'll go back to my practice!

Pat many people in Australia are tired of reading or hearing the repetitive talk and debates that have been going on for many years and are going on with other things in their life. This is happening not just in Cavaliers but in many other breeds as well including Cats. As the problems in Dogs and Cats persist that is the reason why we are now seeing our Government stepping in with Legislation and Codes of Practice for Hereditary Diseases.
.

Margaret C
15th October 2009, 08:43 PM
I am confused-- wouldn't line breeding on dogs that have been cleared (MRI'd) produce more clear (in theory)? Isn't that what some breeders are banking on??

I don't know why breeders should be banking on line breeding to Grade A cavaliers. Even if a line has good results for SM, line breeding will double up on other hidden health problems & contribute to the loss of genetic diversity.
Breeding unrelated Grade A cavaliers is a healthier option for the breed

The situation at the moment is that very few show breeders scanned prior to August last year. In many cases they line bred with unscanned dogs that were SM affected but showing no symptoms, and doubled up on the problem in each generation.

I suspect that eventually the majority of the top stud dogs and brood bitches had SM and line breeding to them has left show bred cavaliers at more risk of SM.

I did a little research on the UK stud dog list in 2007 and found........

Top stud dog number 1 is sire of stud dog number 9
2 is Sire of 8 and 10
3 is Sire of 4 and 11 and half brother to 2
7 is grandfather to 3

It was an interesting exercise for me as it brought home to me how closely these dogs are related ( and this is only looking on the paternal side, the maternal side will be just as closely linked )

.

WoodHaven
15th October 2009, 08:53 PM
If you line breed-- you won't be hiding as much. There are fewer surprises. Like breeding two blenheims-- you KNOW you will get blenheims. There are no black tricolors hiding in the breeding of two blenheims. At least that is how it was explained to me about doing test breedings. This is how you PROVE clears vs. carriers.

Outcrossing is the practice of introducing unrelated genetic material into a breeding line. It increases genetic diversity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_diversity), thus reducing the probability of all individuals being subject to disease or reducing genetic abnormalities(only within the first generation). It actually can serve to increase the number of individuals who carry a disease recessively.

When undesirable traits begin to appear, breedings are selected to determine if a trait is recessive or dominant. Removal is accomplished by breeding two individuals of known genetic status, usually they are related.

MARK MARSHALL
15th October 2009, 10:26 PM
Being new to breeding I am most keen to have guidance on how to proceed and have someone with more knowledge, tell me where to find suitable stud dogs and also have my own dogs used if they are of value to others ?

Is anyone organising such matings for the good of the breed or as I suspect, it is being left to individuals to do their own thing, trying not to upset strong personalities who can and would damage their enjoyment of showing.

Only this week. I heard of a repeat mating of dogs that first time around produced a young Champion. The Sire is now over 7 years and won countless CC's.

But still the dog remains unscanned - when £115 would ascertain if that dog carries SM and other issues.

Disgusting that ACCREDITED breeders would use such a dog merely to breed puppies of a winning type rather than putting health first.

Why is the CKCS Club not taking the lead on this matter ?

Regards Mark Marshall.

HollyDolly
15th October 2009, 10:46 PM
Why is the CKCS Club not taking the lead on this matter ?

.


I think they tried to Mark but certain strong personalities namely x Breed note correspondent's Husband put a stop to it at the Club's AGM.

There are vacancies on the committee Mark, how about it????:w**h**:

Nanette

MARK MARSHALL
15th October 2009, 10:53 PM
It would be a pleasure to sit on such a Committee.

Get me voted for and I will fight the fight for Cavaliers and members who want change but feel unable to speak their mind.

Regards Mark,

WoodHaven
15th October 2009, 11:05 PM
Sandy , I still collect the ages of Long Lived Cavaliers, in fact I contacted the UK CKCS CLUB about a year ago ,asking if they'd think about putting a List of Long Lived Cavaliers onto their WEB SITE, if you check it you will they agreed to my request.

I don't think just,because we don't have any Cavaliers now ,but have given a home to SUSY ,a bit of every-thing ,who we got from the Scottish Dog and Cat Home, that should be hindering me in still having a love of Cavaliers, and having the memories of our Cherished Cavaliers
who are no longer with us. All our Cavaliers are really still with us ,they are buried on our Land.

Sandy ,if you are ever in London. Go to the Kennel Club Library ,where you will see the List of around 2,000 Cavaliers of 12 years and upwards, and 5 generation Cavalier Pedigrees from 1929- 1945,all written out by hand, that I have given the Library,

I don't think that is the work of a Person who is Soured with the Cavalier Breed.

I just remember you writing that they all died very early. That was the reason I asked.

Been to London-- got a driving ticket, don't think I'll be back soon. And yes, I paid the ticket.

Thanks for pointing out the long lived on the UK cavalier site. Some of the dogs on the 'current golden oldies' have passed.

RodRussell
15th October 2009, 11:21 PM
Just wondering how someone could become so soured on a breed for YEARS and not currently own one.

I would say that Bet is not "soured on" the breed, but that she is soured on the breeders. When the chairman of the UK Cavalier club writes that:

"There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals."

...then the breed has a really big problem because many breeders -- including "many breeders" in the UK breed club -- act irresponsibly in their breeding practices. I believe that the UK club's members are not unique. I believe that there are many members of the US breed clubs (CKCSC,USA and ACKCSC) who engage in the same irresponsible breeding practices, and that does not include the multitude of AKC-only Cavalier breeders who are not even members of the AKC's parent club for Cavaliers.

EddyAnne
16th October 2009, 08:27 AM
I answered Bet's question about what it took to be on the puppy register. A member in good standing and registered dogs.

This isn't a health cert. It is a cheek swab.

Yes I know that a DNA Profile involves taking a cheek swab and as I mentioned the purpose for this is to maintain the integrity of the Pedigree Register. Integrity of the Register is vital when looking back for generations and gathering information including Hereditary Health information, particularly when DNA testing is NOT available for particular Hereditary Diseases. One could say the DNA Profiling is vital and compliments health testing for Hereditary Diseases.

I see microchips being used when health testing and that is great. DNA Profiling is another form of identifying individuals with 99.999% assurance, and additionally the DNA sequences can be used with the Sire’s and Dam’s DNA Profiles to establish correct parentage and pedigree assurance.

By the way, I remember this from the AKC Chairman when they started DNA Profiling and I wondered about addressing Hereditary Diseases and even about pups on Puppy Registers.
"Our experience with DNA in the compliance audit program taught us that 84% of the litters we found necessary to exclude from our registry because of incorrect pedigrees were caused by false sires."
.

Bet
16th October 2009, 10:33 AM
Thanks Rod,

You have put in a Nut- Shell my feelings about many Cavalier Breeders.

I know that a good number are now claiming to be doing Health Testing ,but why were they not doing this 10-15 years ago, if they had would the Cavalier Breed be in the mess it's in to-day with the MVD Problem .

It seems to be a case of shutting the Stable Door after the Horse has Bolted.

Now to the Cavaliers' SM Problem, hopefully ,the Cavalier Breeders `who have been hiding their Heads in the Sand ,have now realized that it is a Serious Problem in the Breed,and can only be being tackled by MRI Scanning their Cavalier Breeding Stock to find out if there is a Syrinx Present.

The Syrinx defines SM. Not made up ,Sandy,was told this by a Neurologist.

This is the benefit of the Internet and Lists like Cavalier Talk, we Cavalier Pet Owners can now discuss about the Health Problems in our Cavaliers ,so that Prospective Cavalier Buyers now know what questions should be being asked from a Cavalier Breeder.

We Cavalier Pet Owners are now for sure living in different times ,than what it was like 5- 10 years ago.

Thanks to Karlin ,Margaret, Carol, and Jemima Harrison and her PDE TV FILM

sins
16th October 2009, 11:18 AM
Thanks to Karlin ,Margaret, Carol, and Jemima Harrison and her PDE TV FILM
:thnku: ladies !

It was about this time I three years ago that I began researching cavaliers.I had grown up with springers and cockers as working gundogs but knew little about cavaliers.
Three years ago all the information I could find told me that 1% incidence of SM was about right ....
I'm now amazed at what has happened in the three years since I joined cavalier messageboards.The exchange of information has been incredible.
What has emerged into the public domain has been startling,shocking and may very well change the future course of the cavalier breed.
A very emiment surgeon once told me that there's nothing worse than the fear of the unknown and I believe he was correct.
What all this means to me as an owner is if the worst should happen, and my cavalier develops SM, I know I can deal with it in a calm,practical manner and do my very best for her.I will never have to go through the shock, the fear and stress of dealing with an "obscure" condition as others have had to do.There are dogs now living in comfort on medication who may have never been diagnosed and could have been living in pain had it not been for Margaret and Carol.
There are breeders who are doing a great job in tackling the SM issue, There are breeders who are in the process of getting there.
They deserve to be supported and encouraged, even if sometimes it seems there are more problems than solutions.
Sins

Clairelou
16th October 2009, 11:28 AM
It would be a pleasure to sit on such a Committee.

Get me voted for and I will fight the fight for Cavaliers and members who want change but feel unable to speak their mind.

Regards Mark,

I for one would welcome this, the Cavalier world needs you Mark :)

Bet
16th October 2009, 06:00 PM
With the Posts about the forth-coming UK CKCS CLUB nominations, should it be being considered that a Cavalier Pet Owner be being proposed, .

There must be quite a number of Cavalier Pet Owners ,who are members of the CKCS CLUB.

Kate H
16th October 2009, 07:21 PM
Margaret wrote: The situation at the moment is that very few show breeders scanned prior to August last year.

Would it perhaps be fairer to say 'very few of the larger show breeders'? I took Oliver to the first of the Midland Club scanning days at Chestergates in June 2007 - 70 Cavaliers scanned over three days and, with one notable exception, almost all belonging to small breeders with only a few breeding stock, for whom in at least one instance a positive scan meant losing the last bitch in her line. As far as I know this has continued to be the pattern - certainly it was when Oliver was rescanned in May this year. In this year's Cavalier Club Year Book there was a drop in the number of advertisements, but a 15% increase in advertisers who said they MRI scanned - and virtually all of them were smaller breeders. When, oh when are the big breeders with popular, fashionable stud dogs going to start scanning?!!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

MARK MARSHALL
16th October 2009, 07:36 PM
Kate, they will not do so, as the bad results will bounce around the Cavalier World and the sale of their dogs will descend at a rate of knots !

The best thing for the breed would be for the older stud dogs/bitches to be scanned (yes I have said this before) so that their status is known and the off-spring can be checked.

That would provide wonderful data and enable others to identify which younger dogs are showing signs of early onset 'SM'

The need to do such checks, only needs to be linked to KC puppy registrations/sales and the battle is halfway to being won.

Regards Mark.

Margaret C
16th October 2009, 07:58 PM
Being new to breeding I am most keen to have guidance on how to proceed and have someone with more knowledge, tell me where to find suitable stud dogs and also have my own dogs used if they are of value to others ?

Is anyone organising such matings for the good of the breed or as I suspect, it is being left to individuals to do their own thing, trying not to upset strong personalities who can and would damage their enjoyment of showing.

Only this week. I heard of a repeat mating of dogs that first time around produced a young Champion. The Sire is now over 7 years and won countless CC's.

But still the dog remains unscanned - when £115 would ascertain if that dog carries SM and other issues.

Disgusting that ACCREDITED breeders would use such a dog merely to breed puppies of a winning type rather than putting health first.

Why is the CKCS Club not taking the lead on this matter ?

Regards Mark Marshall.

I have been reading with a great deal of amusement a thread on the 'nasties' forum

Someone took exception to Mark's post and wrote.......

"if it was you that came to my house Mark, then my feeling about you is that you a hypocritical KEYBOARD COWARD hiding behind your computer"

It turns out that it was not Mark who visited his house.

Now, with most people the unjustified diatribe that was posted would bring an apology, but not from this breeder or the usual strident group that joined in with him. They have obviously decided that attack is the best defence.

This group includes the chairman/health representative/puppy register coordinator of Mark's local cavalier club who should really make sure of her facts before criticising one of her club members.
I can only presume she has a problem with Mark's former profession...........

"once a policeman, always a policeman!!"

Not really the reaction of your usual responsible citizen?

Instead of an admission that they were mistaken they are making very nasty personal attacks on Mark, so I think I would just like to make a couple of points.

It was not Mark who recently allowed his underage Champion dog to be used on a bitch who was being mated for the third consecutive season. It was known that this bitch would need to have her third caesarian to deliver this litter.
This regional club committee member should read his club's Code of Best Practice.

Nor is Mark like the vituperative breeder who, having routinely mated 15 & 16 month old bitches before the PDE film, is now trying to reinvent herself as a health conscious breeder ( I understand she wants to stand for the Cavalier Club committee )
Allowing your underage ruby dog to be used at stud is against the same Code of Best Practice, and scarcely qualifies you to criticise other breeders.

So Mark, in answer to your question......


Is anyone organising such matings for the good of the breed.

I think the answer from this group of top breeders is NO

MARK MARSHALL
16th October 2009, 08:27 PM
My immediate reaction to reading about a bitch being mated again, having already had two ceasars and all 3 litters being back to back - is to write to the KC and the CKCS club making a complaint in the strongest terms.

I would however like the comment of others, so please either reply to this thread or PM me, or email me at oxen.combe@btinternet.com or whatever.

I will then decide on what is the appropriate action based on the views of other pet lovers and breeders alike.

Regards Mark Marshall.

Margaret C
16th October 2009, 08:28 PM
Margaret wrote: The situation at the moment is that very few show breeders scanned prior to August last year.

Would it perhaps be fairer to say 'very few of the larger show breeders'? I took Oliver to the first of the Midland Club scanning days at Chestergates in June 2007 - 70 Cavaliers scanned over three days and, with one notable exception, almost all belonging to small breeders with only a few breeding stock, for whom in at least one instance a positive scan meant losing the last bitch in her line. As far as I know this has continued to be the pattern - certainly it was when Oliver was rescanned in May this year. In this year's Cavalier Club Year Book there was a drop in the number of advertisements, but a 15% increase in advertisers who said they MRI scanned - and virtually all of them were smaller breeders. When, oh when are the big breeders with popular, fashionable stud dogs going to start scanning?!!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Hello Kate,

Yes, you are right, I should say "very few of the most successful show breeders"...........
There has been some wonderful 'small' breeders who have scanned for quite a few years now and now have a good few generations of scanned cavaliers. They deserve our thanks and admiration.

Unfortunately they were a drop in the ocean when it came to trying to ensure a healthy future for the breed.

I know that some of the popular stud dogs actually have been scanned but the results of these scans are only released if they are good.

Some of these dogs disappear to the USA and other countries, some are still used here, despite their poor results, by breeders who basically just want to breed a litter of lovely show puppies.
They are willing to take a chance that health problems will not show up too early. If it does, they will rehome the cavalier to some innocent pet owner who they hope will love it so much that they will not think of returning it.
So many people have told me that their young, well bred, cavalier had symptoms from the day they bought it.

Cavalier Club members should be aware that it can be shown that they were sent the SM guidelines in January 2007. Any litter produced after that date, from unscanned dogs, could be a potential time bomb.
If a dog develops SM & the owner decided to make an issue of their breeding practices in Court, they may not have much of a defence

Pat
16th October 2009, 09:44 PM
I know that some of the popular stud dogs actually have been scanned but the results of these scans are only released if they are good.

Some of these dogs disappear to the USA


Although I've had Cavaliers for 20+ years, I'm quite out of the loop at this point as far as club/show/breeding activities, etc.

And yet even I have been privy to some of the confidential phone calls where folks discuss these particular Cavaliers that have been sent to the US to continue breeding.

The sad thing is that the general novice pet buyer has no clue about all of this and these puppy buyers are SO excited to purchase a puppy (at a premium price) from some of the hugely successful show breeders using these imports.

Pat

Margaret C
16th October 2009, 11:59 PM
I really cannot believe what I have just read on the nasties forum..........

"OK Mark, a direct question. You have a choice as a breeder to take your A scanned bitch to one of two dogs, an unscanned dog without symptoms aged seven years with clear heart or a D scanned dog aged 7 that has a significant syrinx, no symptoms and a heart murmur. Which would you choose?"

Why would any responsible UK breeder choose either when there are other well bred, Grade A stud dogs to choose from?

Only a show breeder whose priority is beauty first & foremost could still believe that a unscanned dog of any age is a good choice.

HollyDolly
17th October 2009, 01:12 AM
Spotted this post on CC. The writer is referring to us.:_

"As the remark on the other board clearly showed-- they don't get that an MRI is a picture in time, that it doesn't show what the dogs genotype is.
It is funny how they go on and on about how a "dog looks" are too important to show breeders when they put ALL their beliefs in a 'picture' of a dogs cranium and spine."


I feel I have to make comment Sandy, you insist on popping over to the other side and make derogatory comments about us on here, can you answer me this WHY DO YOU STAY ON THIS FORUM WHEN WE SO OBVIOUSLY MAKE YOU MAD:sl*p:


Nanette

WoodHaven
17th October 2009, 01:23 AM
Because every once in a while someone over here will say, "hey, I think I understand what you mean". Isn't EDUCATION and the use of free expression what will get us to understand where the other side is coming from.

US-- First of all, I don't remember you saying anything. AND trust me, there are people on THIS site that don't really believe that breeders are evil. There are people on THIS site that can think for themselves.

I am not "FOR ANY SIDE"-- I am very much in the middle. Do I health test-- YES. Actually if I were to say I am on any side-- It would be the 'cavalier dogs' side.

When one side attacks the other, it is painful to read. Do I know that people here read what is written on the other board-- duh, yes. If I wanted to 'hide' I would use a different name than my kennel name. I stand by everything I printed.

To have someone say that breeders are breeding for looks, when some people here are advocating breeding for MRI results -LOOKS -- phenotype choices-- not genotype choices-- and they don't get the similarity, it is frustrating.

Cathy T
17th October 2009, 03:02 AM
I am not "FOR ANY SIDE"-- I am very much in the middle. Do I health test-- YES. Actually if I were to say I am on any side-- It would be the 'cavalier dogs' side.



And that's the side everyone (pet owners and breeders) should be on. Thanks for that Sandy.

Bet
17th October 2009, 08:57 AM
I think this thought could be OK to be mentioned on this Thread.

I noticed on the CC List , the mention of Naming and Shaming Cavaliers if a Cavalier Health problem has occurred.

For us Cavalier Pet Owners ,what is wrong if our Cavalier has developed, say SM or MVD, and has been diagnozed by a Neurologist or Cardiologist, to say on a Cavalier List on the Internet that this has happened to our Cavalier and give the name of the Cavalier's Sire and Dam.

I would think that that would focus some Cavalier's Breeders Minds quicker than any-thing else would.

Bet
17th October 2009, 09:25 AM
Mark, I have just read your Post about the Poor Cavalier Bitch having the Back to Back Matings AND Cesars ,I won't E-Mail you Privately ,I will say it openly, have some Cavalier Breeders no feelings at all for their Cavaliers, I do hope you will take this further, this Cavalier Breeder deserves to be Expelled from the CKCS CLUB if he or she is a CLUB Member.


Finally ,some Cavalier CLUB Breeders have the Brass Neck to talk about the goings on by Cavalier Puppy Farmers and BYB ,well........

Neither wonder as Rod has recently Posted ,I am sure Soured by the Antics of some Cavalier Breeders.

If the answer to the Health Problems of Cavaliers are left to some Cavalier Breeders ,what chance has the Future of the Breed got.

Some ot the Cavalier Breeders favourite Proclamation is, I have been Breeding Cavaliers for years, and will take no Lessons from any-one how it should be being done, well maybe they will have to,and listen to us True Lovers of our Cavalier Breed,and realize that this is now a different Cavalier World than what it was 10-20 years ago.

Bet
17th October 2009, 01:47 PM
What an Apt Name Margaret has now given Cavalier Chat List, The Nasties Forum.

I know that the Bashing I have received from some Cavalier Breeders on that Forum
,this name surely does apply to some of them.

The things that are being said and Bandied about by a certain few Cavalier Breeders on that List , must be an Eye Opener to many Cavalier Pet Owners who like me have looked at the Cavalier Breeders with Rose Coloured Glasses,not all Cavalier Breeders are coming across like what is being shown to-day , but it's giving the other Cavalier Breeders such a bad name.

One quote that really stuck in my Gullet, on that Forum, that us Cavalier Folk should get a Life,and this quote hurt me as a Broken Hearted Cavalier Pet Owner most of all, to keep our nose out of other Folks Business.

I don't know the ins and outs of the Present Arguments, but it is my Business when I have been sold a Cavalier who only lived to 7 and the Heart Trouble in the Cavalier Breed was known about in her Back-ground.

I have passed on all this information that I have collected on to the Cardiologists, Researching the MVD Problem ,plus about another 400 Cavalier Pedigrees .

Clairelou
17th October 2009, 03:38 PM
I am deeply saddened to read on the cc forum an ex breeder write "I don't suppose anyone has thought that not everyone can afford to have them scanned" o.k. she goes on to write that she used to do tests when she used to breed, credit to her for that. But it costs £115??!! if one can't afford that how can one afford to pay for vet treatment for pregnancy/whelping problems??!! :?

I think most people are aware that an MRI is only a snapshot in time, but it is the best tool available at present.

Pat
17th October 2009, 05:20 PM
Bet, from my perspective, the Cavalier world seems exactly as it was 20 years ago - there were these same arguments going on (it was just MVD only and not MVD AND SM); there were good breeders who cared and did their best; there were breeders only interested in ego and fame; there were backyard breeders, puppy mills (just fewer Cavaliers in US mills because of no AKC recognition and a much less popular breed); there were breeders only interested in making a financial profit; there were small breeders and big breeders; there were "pet owners only." The entire cast of characters, good/medium/bad were all in play. The change now in the US is that there are MORE Cavaliers, pet owners, breeders so it's a bigger world.

The other difference I see now is the effect of the internet and the fact that long distance is free instead of 40 cents a minute! We used to spent a lot of money debating one to one on long distance calls - now we post on the internet and can share comments with more than one person at a time, which does cut down on the "hearsay."

As an aside, I've been blessed to have very long-living Cavaliers. If I had Cavaliers with the lifespans that you've described, I'd have left the breed long ago.

Pat

Jay
17th October 2009, 05:26 PM
To have someone say that breeders are breeding for looks, when some people here are advocating breeding for MRI results -LOOKS -- phenotype choices-- not genotype choices-- and they don't get the similarity, it is frustrating.

What is frustrating to me is reading posts by people who throw terms around that they don’t fully understand. To say that MRI results are “LOOKS” is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. An MRI is a medical procedure designed to find physical abnormalities. To say that the results are “LOOKS” is out and out stupid. An MRI that shows a syrinx is not a “look”, it is an abnormal medical condition that can cause a dog severe pain.

Sandy keeps harping on how two MRI cleared dogs can produce puppies with SM. Since researchers are fairly certain, that SM is caused by recessive genes, of course that is possible IF both dogs are carriers for the gene. Anyone who understands Mendelian modes of inheritance will know that for single recessive genes, if BOTH parents are carriers, EACH offspring has a 25% chance of receiving both recessive genes and will display the trait controlled by those genes. Since the mode of transmission is still not fully understood in SM, we can only postulate from MRI what the chances are of passing on genes to future generations. If the mode of transmission of SM is through recessive gene(s) then if you see a clear MRI (at breeding age), you can postulate that at worst, the dog might be a carrier. When you see you see an abnormal MRI, you can postulate that the dog has both recessive genes and will always pass on the defective gene.

I work with children who have disabiliities. I work with families who have genetic defects. I have worked with families that have never had the genetic trait show up in their families only to have two or three of their children affected. I see families where both parents and children have the same syndrome. Even within families, the expression of the gene can vary from individual to individual. Genetics is a very complex subject. I have taken doctorate level courses in genetics. Some genes turn on at birth, others may turn on at different ages, some may need an external event to turn on. Right now, it still is not understood what causes the SM gene to express itself.


I am not "FOR ANY SIDE"-- I am very much in the middle. Do I health test-- YES. Actually if I were to say I am on any side-- It would be the 'cavalier dogs' side.

Then you should be advocating that breeders test the same as you do. The only way that researchers are going to find the gene(s) responsible for SM is for responsible breeders to test and share their results with the researchers. There should be no shame in producing a dog affected by SM IF the breeder has done everything in their power to prevent it. The shame comes when breeders don’t use the tools available to study SM and possibly find the genes responsible. Then maybe breeders will have the better tools available to combat this condition.

J.

Margaret C
17th October 2009, 05:40 PM
Because every once in a while someone over here will say, "hey, I think I understand what you mean". Isn't EDUCATION and the use of free expression what will get us to understand where the other side is coming from.




To have someone say that breeders are breeding for looks, when some people here are advocating breeding for MRI results -LOOKS -- phenotype choices-- not genotype choices-- and they don't get the similarity, it is frustrating.

I would not want to see you leave. I think that we need a diverse range of opinions when debating these topics.

I do understand what you mean about the similarity of advocating for breeding from what is seen in a MRI picture, while condemning breeding for what is seen by the breeder's eye.
It is true that neither method will tell you what good or bad genes the dog actually carries.
The problem is that the gene test that will tell us does not yet exist, and will not exist, without the information provided by MRIs.

But why then is it thought that the absence of SM can be deduced by looking at a dog who seems to show no obvious symptoms?
How can it be thought that what you see externally can give as good a picture of that dog's SM status as a MRI scan?
The scan is only a snapshot in time, but that is true of so many health tests, including MVD checks, and it will show you if the problem is already present.


2 out of 2 pups. Quite an exception. I tend to believe (maybe erroneously) that different lines carry different parts of the issue and if you get them all-- you get the disease (also that bad gene combinations just happen)
This was a total outcross-- very low COI 4.5641 .

I also believe that every cavalier carries some of the SM genes and some puppies will be unlucky in the combination they inherit from their parents.

I do not, however, believe that linebreeding can allow you to escape SM or any other health problem, although it has suited some breeders with very linebred cavaliers to spread that myth.

You had two puppies with SM from MRI scanned parents. You may have said what their ages were, if so I missed it, but I presume these parents were scanned over the age of 2.5 years and were both SM clear.

You were unlucky, others have had the same experience here in the UK, but it does not mean that the SM guidelines do not work. They are designed to help the breed as a whole, and increase breeders' chances of getting puppies that do not develop early onset SM across the board. They cannot guarantee individual litters will be unaffected.


The protocol being short sighted is another issue-- it is also doesn't delve deep enough into the pedigree (littermate health, history of dogs in the pedigree). To me, this should have some value.

All health tests are blunt tools, but they are often all we have, and every breeder that opts out of breed specific health tests skews the results that would give the true information to the researchers.

How can we learn about the inheritance of SM, or whether the MVD protocol will actually move back the age of onset in a disease that afflicts so many cavaliers, if so few breeders fully follow the guidelines?

I can only talk with knowledge about UK breeders but I can say with 100% certainty that there are still only a handful of breeders, and they will be smaller hobby breeder, that breed only from heart clear cavaliers over 2.5 years old and check that the dog's parents still have no murmur at 5 years of age.

This is a really stringent and demanding protocol, a lot more difficult than the SM guidelines, but something that could now be followed by those who say that MVD should be the priority.


There are breeders who are doing a great job in tackling the SM issue, There are breeders who are in the process of getting there.
They deserve to be supported and encouraged, even if sometimes it seems there are more problems than solutions.
Sins

Yes, you are right, some of them are on my list, some are in phone and email contact, and I hope that I do support & encourage those that I know. If I sometimes seem to give them less than their due, then I apologise.

I do often criticise the top show breeders. I feel that those that are in a position to influence other cavalier breeders owe it to the breed to inform themselves about the health issues, and to set an example in their breeding practices.
There are plainly some people that just have not done that yet.

Bet
17th October 2009, 05:47 PM
Jay,

Thank you for your Post.

It's folk like you who can get the message across to those who are casting doubts about what the Researchers are trying to do.

I did wonder why SM was found in other Breeds ,but when I read the Recent Veterinary Paper that said the Cavaliers were the only Small Breed of Dog to have Large Brains, that for Cavaliers there is Mix-match between their Brain Size and Skulls, there must be Genes somewhere involved to be causing this, Jay ,if you see this ,am I right in what I am thinking.

Oreo
17th October 2009, 06:30 PM
I do not, however, believe that linebreeding can allow you to escape SM or any other health problem, although it has suited some breeders with very linebred cavaliers to spread that myth.

I just wanted to elaborate on this point. I do as well come to genetics knowledge from the human side and from working with the disabled, but as I am a dog lover am always looking to take this information farther.

This post will probably bore the heck out of those who have not interest in genetics and numbers . . . be forwarned.

Informed breeding can be used to diminish the risks of recessive conditions, but inbreeding or linebreeding isn't necessary for this. You do, however, need known carriers or affecteds.

We all know early onset full penetrant dominant single allele defective genese are usually easy to purge from a kennel line. This is because their effects are immediately visible.

As soon as you move to the recessives, proof of purging becomes a much more cumbersome project, because the recessive genes can remain hidden despite test matings, and this is why.

In the case of a simple single allele recessive defect, IF you have a suspect carrier, and, at your disposal, a homozygous affected dog to mate with, once you have produced 7 of 7 pups clear from this pair then there is a 99% probability that you don't have a carrier . . . of course this is only possible if the condition is not lethal. You could not morally make these test breedings if a condition was painful or lethal as there is the chance of producing affecteds.

Now if you have a possible carrier/possible clear and only have at your disposal, for a test mating, a known carrier (having only one recessive deleterious gene) then the number of pups produced to get 99% certainty of a clear dog on one side, is 17.

If you just suspect a carrier, and decide to use inbreeding to bring deleterious recessives to the surface, you would have to produce 35 of 35 clear pups from a mating as close as father to daughter to have 99% certainty the father was clear of simple recessive deleterious genes. You would also have to use multiple daughters as if father is a carrier some daughters will be and some will not be.

The more distant the pair is in relationship to each other, the higher the number of clear offspring is required to prove "clear" of even just simple recessives when inbreeding or linebreeding.

The numbers grow exponentially if the condition is polygenic . . . and then there are late onset conditions, and conditions that show variable penetrance.

In regards to the practicality of this, I don't know any breeder willing to keep 35 (or more) highly inbred and possibly affected pups. What would a breeder do with the pups?

If one has attempted to uncover recessives using less than these numbers, clear animals have not been proven. If the animals are related, then, chances are also increased that not so wonderful recessives conditions have been fixed instead.

These numbers were given by Dr. John Burchard on the Cangen list, but they can be worked out if one tries. For instance, for the first example, using a suspect carrier with a known affected dog, the chance of getting one of one normal offspring is 1 out of 2 - 50%. The chance of two of two normal offspring then is 1 out of 4 - 25% . . . . three of three is 12.5% . . . four of four is 6.25% . . . .and you work down to where the probability falls below 1% (in the first example this is at 7 of 7 pups).

Margaret C
17th October 2009, 06:34 PM
With the Posts about the forth-coming UK CKCS CLUB nominations, should it be being considered that a Cavalier Pet Owner be being proposed, .

There must be quite a number of Cavalier Pet Owners ,who are members of the CKCS CLUB.

I have suggested to Carol Fowler that she would be a popular candidate with the 800 Cavalier Club members who don't show, and are basically pet owners that would like to see everything possible done to ensure their cavaliers live long and pain free lives.

Carol is unsure, but there is time to persuade her.

Kate H
17th October 2009, 08:29 PM
Bet wrote: for Cavaliers there is Mix-match between their Brain Size and Skulls.

The early information coming from the Cavalier foetal research (which I think is being followed up by monitoring litters of young puppies) seems to be that the gene which controls growth of the brain and the gene that controls the growth of the skull are not communicating properly - so that the skull is told to stop growing, and the brain is told to go on growing (I hope I've understood this properly - not sure how genes work!). With the possible advances in genetic engineering, this looks as if it could be a very useful line of enquiry. But it all takes so much time...

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Bet
18th October 2009, 09:45 AM
Thanks Margaret for the information about Carol, I do hope she would consider standing for the CKCS Committee,.

I do know that I and the many other Cavalier Pet Owners in the CKCS CLUB, would so much appreciate her putting her name forward.

I had'nt realized that there were 800 Cavalier Pet Owners in the UK CKCS CLUB.

Surely it's only right that we should be being represented.

Bet
18th October 2009, 10:18 AM
Just read this on the UK CKCS CLUB WEB SITE

Under the Heading
Bitches to be Used for Breeding

No Cavalier Bitch must have NO MORE than 1 Litter in any 12 Month Period

No Cavalier Bitch to be Allowed more than 6 Litters in her Life-Time

No Cavalier Bitch to be Mated who has had two Ceasarean Sections ,as this would indicate possible Whelping Difficulties.

MARK MARSHALL
18th October 2009, 12:03 PM
Bet, I swear by almighty God that the info I shall now give, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Today, at approx 0830 hrs, I was walking in a northerly direction across my field when my mobile rang and vibrated within my trouser pocket.

I answered the call and identified the caller to be my informant, known to me as THE LAST SAMURAI. This person has been most reliable in the past and has taken many risks to help the cause.

My informant informed me that the breeder who bred the said bitch on three consecutive (BACK TO BACK SEASONS) occasions is a big personality and also a Judge awarding CC's within the Cavalier World.

Not one of the litters went smoothly and her peers around her, are fully aware of the said circumstances.

Thankfully for the bitch, she is now in a PET home so fingers crossed she will not be abused anymore !

The breeder in question is known for her strong personality and holds high office as does her partner in life.

I have full details of the bitch and owners and will do as expected.

This is an initial report to keep you informed whle I make further enquiries, to confirm certain details etc etc.

Regards Mark Marshall.

Bet
18th October 2009, 12:51 PM
Mark,

Why I put my recent Post on CT,was I have only been a Cavalier Pet Owner ,never interested in the rules and regulations about the Breeding from Cavalier Bitches, till yesterday.

Well I got my eyes opened ,as I am sure will other Cavalier Pet Owners ,Lovers of our Cavalier Breed.

On the CKCS CLUB WEB SITE , the information is there for any-body to read,it could.nt be made any plainer.

This is why I really do feel that it is about time a Cavalier Pet Owner was on the Cavalier CLUB Committee,we seem to have different views about the Welfare of our Cherished Breed than do some Cavalier Breeders.

Maybe the Election for the CKCS CLUB Committee new Members has just come at the right time.

WoodHaven
18th October 2009, 04:09 PM
What is frustrating to me is reading posts by people who throw terms around that they don’t fully understand. To say that MRI results are “LOOKS” is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. An MRI is a medical procedure designed to find physical abnormalities. To say that the results are “LOOKS” is out and out stupid. An MRI that shows a syrinx is not a “look”, it is an abnormal medical condition that can cause a dog severe pain.

Sandy keeps harping on how two MRI cleared dogs can produce puppies with SM. Since researchers are fairly certain, that SM is caused by recessive genes, of course that is possible IF both dogs are carriers for the gene. Anyone who understands Mendelian modes of inheritance will know that for single recessive genes, if BOTH parents are carriers, EACH offspring has a 25% chance of receiving both recessive genes and will display the trait controlled by those genes. Since the mode of transmission is still not fully understood in SM, we can only postulate from MRI what the chances are of passing on genes to future generations. If the mode of transmission of SM is through recessive gene(s) then if you see a clear MRI (at breeding age), you can postulate that at worst, the dog might be a carrier. When you see you see an abnormal MRI, you can postulate that the dog has both recessive genes and will always pass on the defective gene.

I work with children who have disabiliities. I work with families who have genetic defects. I have worked with families that have never had the genetic trait show up in their families only to have two or three of their children affected. I see families where both parents and children have the same syndrome. Even within families, the expression of the gene can vary from individual to individual. Genetics is a very complex subject. I have taken doctorate level courses in genetics. Some genes turn on at birth, others may turn on at different ages, some may need an external event to turn on. Right now, it still is not understood what causes the SM gene to express itself.



Then you should be advocating that breeders test the same as you do. The only way that researchers are going to find the gene(s) responsible for SM is for responsible breeders to test and share their results with the researchers. There should be no shame in producing a dog affected by SM IF the breeder has done everything in their power to prevent it. The shame comes when breeders don’t use the tools available to study SM and possibly find the genes responsible. Then maybe breeders will have the better tools available to combat this condition.

J.

Wow Jay -- and the other board is considered "NASTY"? WTH have I ever done to you??

First of all, sigh, an MRI is a group of pictures-- how phenotypical can you get? genotype plus environment gives you what you see (referred to as phenotype). Discussed this with a neuro who taught neurosurgery. BUT if you Know better, I stand corrected. I am here to learn too.
I've seen MRI's of dogs that were horrendous -- you wonder how the dog can breath-- but they showed no/little signs of illness. I have heard of dogs in terrible pain, that have beautiful MRI's. So yes, an MRI is a picture of how a dog LOOKS.

Well, last time I looked they weren't sure it was caused by recessive genes. It was assumed because dogs WITH SM could have pups without that it must be. But Dutch based research has pointed out that this may not be so. They were discussing Autosomal dominance and incomplete penetrance and I will be honest, I didn't pay attention to ALL the details-- My mind went-- The experts aren't sure either. One thing is for sure-- this isn't going to be as easy as fruit flies or flowers.

J-- IF I KNEW that my way was the right way, yes, then I would be jumping up and down.

Bet
18th October 2009, 06:28 PM
Sandy ,

Jay has tried to explain to you ,maybe you should read also what Dr C Rusbridge has on her Web Site on the subject of SM.

www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/faq.htm

Bobby Jones ,the Famous Golfer had the Arnold Chiari problem in the 1930's, Researchers have been struggling since then to get an answer .

As I understand it ,the only way ,as Jay has said ,is for Cavalier Breeders to MRI Scan their Breeding Stock.

It has been explained to you ,that two Cavaliers that are deemed not to have SM , could still be Carriers of the SM Genes, and be passing them on.

I think I have got this right.

This is why I think that the MVD Problem is so bad in our Cavalier Breed ,is that there are probably so many Carriers around now with the MVD Genes.

Nobody wants this to happen with the SM Problem ,so I would think that it is a Priority for Cavalier Breeders to be MRI Scanning and giving the Researchers the information they need to find the SM Gene/Genes

Margaret C
18th October 2009, 07:32 PM
Jay and Oreo, thank you for joining in this discussion. I found your posts really interesting

There are so many knowledgeable people on this list.

WoodHaven
18th October 2009, 08:11 PM
Sandy ,

Jay has tried to explain to you ,maybe you should read also what Dr C Rusbridge has on her Web Site on the subject of SM.

www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/faq.htm (http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/faq.htm)

Bobby Jones ,the Famous Golfer had the Arnold Chiari problem in the 1930's, Researchers have been struggling since then to get an answer .

As I understand it ,the only way ,as Jay has said ,is for Cavalier Breeders to MRI Scan their Breeding Stock.

It has been explained to you ,that two Cavaliers that are deemed not to have SM , could still be Carriers of the SM Genes, and be passing them on.

I think I have got this right.

This is why I think that the MVD Problem is so bad in our Cavalier Breed ,is that there are probably so many Carriers around now with the MVD Genes.

Nobody wants this to happen with the SM Problem ,so I would think that it is a Priority for Cavalier Breeders to be MRI Scanning and giving the Researchers the information they need to find the SM Gene/Genes

Thanks Bet-- but I have read through it, when it first came out.
Jay and I were discussing pheno/genotypes and modes of inheritance-- I didn't find an area where Dr. Rusbridge declared knowing any modes of inheritance.
What I did find was in the breeding recommendations was-- not all A's are clear of SM. Not all dogs need to be MRI'd- and that her 'recommendations' are that breeding dogs should be MRI'd not once-- but two or three times in their lifetime. Please note that my neuro charges over 1600.00 USD for an SM MRI-- IF we do a full scan, you can add about 1000.00USD for that.

I have also gone to ASAP fundraisers etc... wanting to talk to people who KNOW this disease first hand.
http://www.asap.org/

MARK MARSHALL
18th October 2009, 08:34 PM
Sandy,

Where have you read such a statement please.

I know that some 'A' dogs will have SM because the syrinx is less than < 2.0mm. That I find so very hard to understand. She was in my opinion wrong to do this as people were able to confidently refer to their dogs as 'A' when a 'B' would have told everyone the true story.

Dogs that people decline to have scanned can be a 'D' is that what you are referring to?

Regards Mark.

WoodHaven
18th October 2009, 08:52 PM
Sandy,

Where have you read such a statement please.

I know that some 'A' dogs will have SM because the syrinx is less than < 2.0mm. That I find so very hard to understand. She was in my opinion wrong to do this as people were able to confidently refer to their dogs as 'A' when a 'B' would have told everyone the true story.

Dogs that people decline to have scanned can be a 'D' is that what you are referring to?

Regards Mark.

I agree Mark-- I don't know how a dog with SM can be an A-- but I have one and I yanked him out of my breeding program. He hasn't been used since.

THIS COMES FROM Dr. Rusbridges GUIDELINES

It is recommended
1) That both the sire and the dam of a proposed mating are screened (any unscreened dog
should be assumed to be “D”)

So ideally both sire and dam would be scanned-- IF one isn't scanned, it should be assumed a D rating and D's can be bred to A's.

Where I live, it is an all day trip, 1600.00-2000.00 USD each dog to get a maximum of two dogs done in one day.
There was a MRI clinic where it was only 600.00-800.00 USD each dog to get a minimum of 5 or 8 dogs done. This had to be done over a two to three day span and it was a 5 hour drive one way.

Now add on the contention that it should be done more than once and you are going to have people say, NOOOOOOO.

Karlin
18th October 2009, 08:58 PM
Sandy, Clare makes no recommendation that breeders' dogs have to be MRId numerous times.

However she and every single other neurologist does note that exactly as with MVD, you cannot make a lifetime assumption about affectedness on the basis of a single test. This is not a demand made by any researcher on breeders, it is simply a fact and therefore any neurologist or researcher is going to tell a breeder that if you can re-MRI you will get a far more accurate picture of that dog and related dogs.

The older the dog is when scanned, again *as with MVD*, the more accurate the test is likely to be for a longer-term picture of health. It is why Clare and a whole panel of leading researchers/neurologists *all agreed* that a dog must be at least 2.5 at the time of a scan for a grade to be associated with it for breeding -- at the very least, breeders should be getting the scan done at the time they plan to breed, not at age 1 then using that result as an assumed grade they carry forward for the rest of the dog's breeding life.

If you scan once at 2.5 and start breeding right at 2.5 and never scan again, then you really have no idea whether your dog will have syrinx, perhaps a severe one, perhaps many, by age 3 or 4 or 6. If breeders feel put out by this fact, there's little researchers can currently do to change it except by getting more breeders to MRI and send information to Sarah Blott to continuously improve the accuracy and helpfulness of the EBVs and for the US clubs to try and get involved with the EVB scheme. The UK club took the initiative with this research -- I am sure it would move far more swiftly to the breeders' and breed's benefit if this was a truly international project and funded more broadly.

Costs remain an issue but again, the UK managed to arrange for a country-wide low cost screening programme. It is clubs and breeders that need to keep pushing for projects, raise the funds etc to make that happen in other countries. And that said -- while plenty of breeders do a one-time scan in the low cost programmes in the UK, almost none in the UkK scan older dogs or do repeat scannings even though it is at a price most in the US or Canada would few as a pittance (as low as $150 per dog). So the issue is not just price. The issue is that at least sometimes, people don't seem to want to know results on dogs once they have the result they want.

The breed as a whole and the research done by Sarah and the genome project would all hugely benefit by having more older dogs scanned. Maybe that would be a good fundraiser for the UK individual clubs -- to pool funding to get say 5 dogs over age 5 scanned for for Blott. Five dogs could be done for just £500 -- a single small event could easily raise that amount of funding. :thmbsups:

As for the A 'with SM' -- that size is more what researchers call a pre-syrinx -- it is tiny. If you removed those dogs as breeding dogs you'd have almost none left to breed. The goal is to REDUCE not ELIMINATE at this time, as with MVD, as too many dogs are already affected. BTW why do breeders keep raising this issue and not simply write directly to Clare or Dr Marino or any of the 9 or so researchers who all agreed on these guidelines? Why is criticising rather than just clarifying the reasoning the priority in so many discussions?

WoodHaven
18th October 2009, 09:11 PM
What age is it recommended to screen dogs?
The minimum screening age is 12 months. It is also recommended that breeders determine the MRI status of their breeding dogs at 2-3 years and again when 6 years of age.

This is directly from CR's website. quoted

Margaret C
18th October 2009, 09:13 PM
Where I live, it is an all day trip, 1600.00-2000.00 USD each dog to get a maximum of two dogs done in one day.
There was a MRI clinic where it was only 600.00-800.00 USD each dog to get a minimum of 5 or 8 dogs done. This had to be done over a two to three day span and it was a 5 hour drive one way.

Now add on the contention that it should be done more than once and you are going to have people say, NOOOOOOO.

They can say no, but that will mean the situation for cavaliers will continue to get worse.
The reputation of the breed as a desirable family dog, and the reputation of cavalier breeders as responsible caring people, will continue to diminish.

This is not something that will go away, or improve by itself. If ever there was a nettle to be grasped, it is here staring you all in the face.

When I first really became aware of SM there were no low cost MRIs available.
After a couple of years Geoff Skerritt, who owned his own MRI scanner, began his scheme offering low cost mini scans. Others followed his example.

I would think it would be commercially possible to arrange for mass USA screening sessions, but breeders and, more importantly, American breed clubs just need to be motivated enough to go out and make it happen

WoodHaven
18th October 2009, 09:24 PM
They can say no, but that will mean the situation for cavaliers will continue to get worse.
The reputation of the breed as a desirable family dog, and the reputation of cavalier breeders as responsible caring people, will continue to diminish.

This is not something that will go away, or improve by itself. If ever there was a nettle to be grasped, it is here staring you all in the face.

When I first really became aware of SM there were no low cost MRIs available.
After a couple of years Geoff Skerritt, who owned his own MRI scanner, began his scheme offering low cost mini scans. Others followed his example.

I would think it would be commercially possible to arrange for mass USA screening sessions, but breeders and, more importantly, American breed clubs just need to be motivated enough to go out and make it happen

A friend of mine contracted vet schools, private companies and vet clinics within a 400 mile range and we couldn't get anyone to help meet our need.

Karlin
18th October 2009, 09:26 PM
Well yes -- as I said, this is simply FACT and wise advice, and just as with annual auscultation, it would be intelligent for breeders if they can do so and wish to have any idea whether their dogs are likely to develop SM. Just scanning once will not give you that information. And unfortunatly I believe you will find that many breeders, if you ask to actually see their scanning info, are not scanning at 2.5 but at age 1 or 18 months that telling people they have an A dog -- when a dog that young cannot receive a grade. Just as most dogs under 2.5 are likely to get clear hearts, so are dogs under that age far re likely to get clear scans. Especially at only age 1 or 18 months.

Getting annoyed with Clare or any of the researchers about this fact is truly shooting the messenger. Perhaps this is an inconvenient and potentially costly truth, but nonetheless it is a biological fact that researchers cannot change, simply to make breeding choices less expensive for breeders. Note it is not a *requirement* but breeders are kidding themselves (just as they are about MVD) if they assume a single test is going to give them as much information as repeated tests over time.

Breeders need to do the best they can individually and these health issues must remain top research funding priorities for clubs and KCs internationally. It is unfortunate the breed has come to such dire crossroads but sadly, it has.

This is the information that a total of 12 researchers agreed on breeding guidelines. This explains why there is no longer an 'all clear' (NB all researchers discussed having seen scans that one neurologist was interpreting as a clear when others, generally those most experienced with the condition, were seeing as syrinxes...). I attended this conference and also was allowed to sit in on this meeting between the neurologists at which they took these decisions:


2) At the request of the UK CKCS club formulate and agree on breeding guidelines
for CM/SM.
Clare Rusbridge presented the very early but promising results of the breeding
program in the Netherlands. It was suggested that before genetic studies are
completed that “commonsense” strategies aiming to limit possible widespread
dissemination of the disease be implemented. The main aim was to limit early onset
and potentially painful SM and to avoid using such dogs in a breeding program. The
current breeding guidelines were discussed and were simplified and modified
(See Breeding Advice) The presence or absence of the Chiari-like malformation (CM) was
dropped from breeding guidelines because of 1) of the ubiquity of this malformation
within the CKCS population 2) Lack of uniformity between veterinarians at
recognising and consistently grading the severity of CM 3) the lack of evidence that
apparent severity of CM was related to severity of syringomyelia. It was agreed that
MRI screening of subsequent generations should be continued so that these early
breeding guidelines could be adapted as more information on the hereditability
becomes available.

This is what they agreed on the breeding recommendations:


he aim of these recommendations is to reduce the incidence of symptomatic syringomyelia (SM) in the breed, not to create litters of puppies guaranteed not to have SM as the chance of producing an affected dog cannot be predicted without knowing the inheritance.


At any rate: surely all a breeder need do is *ask to see the scan from the other breeder/dog owner* to determine whether they are working with an A that has a tiny syrinx or a dog with no syrinx, if a breeder feels this is critically important? Surely breeders are not simply relying on what another breeder says as to the results if a scan? Also: keep in mind that very few people stating they have grades actually have grades!! Most are simply assuming their score. Mr Skerritt does not issue scans nor do many US neurologists. I'd at least want an *actual certificate* whether from a grading neurologist or as given by one of the grading neurologists who has themselves interpreted someone else's scan.

The bottom line is for people to do what they can manage and what they can reconcile with their conscience. An awful lot do neither.

MARK MARSHALL
18th October 2009, 09:49 PM
How many dogs and bitches did CR give an 'A' GRADE to , when the syrinx was small (because its still A SYRINX and is called such when it grows from 1.9 to 2.0 mm!) and how many of those dogs were mated to eachother - both being 'A' ?

If the point of the exercise is to reduce the incidence of SM in the breed, thats a rather silly method of trying to make progress.

As for copies of MRI scans - Mr Skerritt always gives or posts them out asap.

Regards Mark.

WoodHaven
18th October 2009, 09:58 PM
IMO-- I would have given them another designation-- like Mark said, a B would do. B would still be a better choice than a D, but it would be telling that something was there.
The last dog of my breeding that got MRI'd got a certificate-- he was graded Excellent --given a full medical work up -- totally asymptomatic before MRI- NO SM (which is very helpful) no hydrocephalus- with mild crowding. He was over 2.5 years old at the time of the scan.

I got CD's of my group. They sent a copy to my vet, I got a copy and I sent a copy to CR.

Margaret C
18th October 2009, 09:59 PM
A friend of mine contracted vet schools, private companies and vet clinics within a 400 mile range and we couldn't get anyone to help meet our need.

I'm sorry Sandy, I don't mean to sound as if I am criticising anyone. I appreciate you, and others, are doing your very best.
There are some American breeders that have been at the very forefront of SM scanning.

It seems to me that breeders in your situation have three choices.......

Believe there is nothing more you can do and watch SM spread even more through the breed.

Continue doing the few MRIs you can afford. The small number of breeders that do spend out the money will probably be able to keep a small breeding programme going between them, but they will not be enough to make a real difference to the future of the breed in America.

Be a nuisance and put pressure on your breed clubs ( and I know that is not easy when they are probably run by those who downplay SM ) to somehow arrange low cost scanning.

Murphy
18th October 2009, 10:43 PM
Mr Skerritt does not issue scans nor do many US neurologists. I'd at least want an *actual certificate* whether from a grading neurologist or as given by one of the grading neurologists who has themselves interpreted someone else's scan.

Karlin,
Can I ask you to clarify what you mean by the above please? Mr Skerritt does not issue grades - sensibly IMO - is that what you meant when you said: "Mr Skerritt does not issue scans"? Was that a typo?
Than you,
Elspeth Glen

Evelyn
18th October 2009, 11:19 PM
Where in this does "central canal dilation" come? Is it what CR describes as pre- syrinx or less than 2mm ? I have never been told by Mr Skerritt it was present, its been either syrinx or not. I really suppose I should have asked but I assumed if it relevant he would have said.

Murphy
19th October 2009, 12:06 AM
CC Dil or Central Canal Dilatation, if found by GS would be inserted in your certificate in the box labelled Syringomyelia with the position of the CC Dil indicated, viz, C2-C3 or whatever. GS considers a CC Dil as being on the way to a syrinx.
CR on the other hand does not think that a CC Dil will necessarily become a syrinx,
although it may do.
It is a fact, FYI, that there is one breed of dog - not a toydog at all, in which a CC Dil is commonly found. Interestingly this breed does not develop SM.
Just one more example of what researchers still have to find out.
Elspeth Glen

Bet
19th October 2009, 10:24 AM
There has been many sensible comments made in the last Posts, could I chime in with this thought, we know for a fact that Cavaliers ,from the 1940's have had Heart Trouble.

That this could be why the MVD trouble is just about out of control now in the Breed, that there will be so many Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes around.

My question is though ,does any-body know for a fact that SM was in Cavaliers in those early days.

Has any-body got old CKCS Magazines ever mentioning about Cavaliers even Scratching say in the 50's or later.

I know that the Vet Profession only had use of MRI Scanners around the mid 90's ,if SM can only be as a fact found to be in the Breed since the 90's ,then surely it is the most important thing about this Horrible Disease, is to find the SM Gene/Genes, and as Karlin has said ,because SM is now known to be spread World Wide,all Cavalier Breeders to co-operate,and MRI Scan their Breeding Stock.

I really do feel if this is not done shortly .will there be any Cavalier Breed left to save.

It has to be that the Cavalier Carriers of the SM Gene/Genes don't get the Breed into the mess the MVD Carriers have done.

Evelyn
19th October 2009, 10:38 AM
Sorry to labour the point. So it would be marked as CC Dil , I have one girl marked C 3 (small) but that would be a small syrinx but over 2mm , I assume. I just find it odd that out of 12 scans I don't have any certs with that on . Another mystery, there's definately more questions than answers with this condition!
Thanks again

Murphy
19th October 2009, 11:12 AM
It would most definitely read CC Dil if scanned by GS. Remember a CC Dil may simply be one dog, or one dog family's reaction to the increase in CS flow. It is not necessary to have a CC Dil first before a syrinx forms. There is still much discussion re the CC Dil. Sometimes it will develop into a syrinx sometimes not. But it is simply one issue commonly found on an MRI scan. It may be that your particular line is not prone to the CC Dil.
I have had one dog out of the 14 I've scanned who had a CC Dil. Scanned at 8 years. It never developed into anything.
None of the rest of my stock ever scanned with a CC Dil.
If GS ticked your SM column and added the position C3 (which means the third disc in the cervical columnBTW), then I would think he was indeed referring to a Syrinx at C3. If the syrinx only covered the area of 1 disc, then it would indeed be small. Syrinxes are commonly positioned at C3-C4 or C2-C3 , ie covering the area of more than 1 cerebral disc.
Hope this helps you understand?
Elspeth
Elspeth

Evelyn
19th October 2009, 01:06 PM
Yes thanks Elspeth. It's much clearer now.

Bet
19th October 2009, 02:35 PM
Does the talking about Dilation etc, still not come down to certain Gene/Genes being involved.

Is the most important answer for the SM Problem in our Cavalier Breed,find those Gene/Genes?

EddyAnne
19th October 2009, 04:06 PM
Does the talking about Dilation etc, still not come down to certain Gene/Genes being involved.

Is the most important answer for the SM Problem in our Cavalier Breed,find those Gene/Genes?
Bet the testing that are happing are great but I think the focus should be on finding the genes for CM/SM. Sarah Blott's EBV Program that is being setup would greatly benefit from Genetic Research as the stored Cheek Swabs could then be tested which will give the breed the ULTIMATE as Sarah put it and where she mentioned then her program could utilise "Genomic Breeding Values (geBVs)".

Then I see the following that is still on the club's website where I think the Genetic Researchers may still not have all that they really need, and the following from this link.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/syringo/sm_over_5.html

GENETIC STUDIES OF CHIARI-LIKE MALFORMATION WITH SYRINGOMYELIA (CM/SM) IN THE CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIEL

REQUEST FOR DNA SAMPLES FROM DOGS AGED OVER 5

August 09

Information about the progress of the genetic research can be found at http://veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/research.htm

The researchers are seeking DNA samples from cavaliers who are over 5 years of age, but preferably over 7, who have been MRI’d and do not have SM. They are also seeking samples from any close relatives that have also been MRI’d, for example siblings, half siblings and offspring. These dogs can be any age.

‘ORAGENE ANIMAL’ SALIVA KITS

‘Oragene Animal’ mouth mop kits are the swab to be used and provide a quick and easy method of collecting a saliva sample suitable for DNA extraction.

These are available from Dr Rusbridge, Stone Lion Veterinary Centre, 41 High Street, Wimbledon Common, London SW19 5AU Telepehone 020 8946 4228 or email neuro.vet@btinternet.com
.

EddyAnne
19th October 2009, 05:20 PM
certain Gene/Genes being involved.

By the way Bet, Geneticist Dr Guy Rouleau (Director of CHU Sainte Justine Research Centre, Montreal) mentioned last year in the video presentation at the Conference that CM/SM involves more than one gene, for if it involved one gene then they or other research centres would have found the gene by now. So maybe we should start thinking about "certain Genes being involved".
.

Bet
19th October 2009, 05:42 PM
Eddy,

I sure am getting lost now, what do you mean by Certain Genes could now be being involved.

I know that looking for the MVD Gene/Genes by LUPA, can be understood by us lay Folk, but will the SM Genes be being found by MRI Scanning, or is the best way forward for the SM problem in Cavaliers, to be able to have the Problem not happening at such an early Age.

When early Cavalier Pedigrees are looked at ,what a mess they are, Mother to Son Matings, Father to Daughter Matings, then all those close Matings all mixed again by the original close Breedings.

Margaret C
19th October 2009, 06:12 PM
The researchers are seeking DNA samples from cavaliers who are over 5 years of age, but preferably over 7, who have been MRI’d and do not have SM. They are also seeking samples from any close relatives that have also been MRI’d, for example siblings, half siblings and offspring. These dogs can be any age.


Karlin posted a thread about places being available for reduced Rate MRI scans at Stone Lion Veterinary Centre.

I know the owner of one of the dogs that is being MRI scanned for the SM DNA Research on that day. Mabel was scanned at four and graded A and my friend has agreed to have her checked again now she is nine,to help the Genome research.

My friend does not show, she breeds once every two or three years because she so enjoys having a litter of puppies around the house.

It would be good if other owners would think about taking advantage of the reduced price and book one of their older dogs for scanning. It could so help the research

.

Oreo
19th October 2009, 06:15 PM
By the way Bet, Geneticist Dr Guy Rouleau (Director of CHU Sainte Justine Research Centre, Montreal) mentioned last year in the video presentation at the Conference that CM/SM involves more than one gene, for if it involved one gene then they or other research centres would have found the gene by now. So maybe we should start thinking about "certain Genes being involved".
.

I wanted to add to this that there have been indicator genes found over the last couple of years for some awful canine illnesses.

As examples:

An indicator gene was found for Boxer Cardiomyopathy, a condition long thought by some to have a dominant mode of inheritance. This is a later onset condition and indeed the inheritance mode is recessive, however, in an uncommon manner Boxers with one copy of this recessive gene will still be affected to some extent . . . and as well breeders have been asked not to cull dogs with a single copy of this gene as the impact on the gene pool could be disastrous. There is a good chance that other genes are involved in Cardiomyopathy as well.

http://www.dunnfordboxers.com/arvcinformation.htm

There is also a genetic test now for canine degenerative myelopathy (in German Shepherd Dogs, Rhodesian Ridgebacks, Pembroke and Cardigan Welsh Corgis, Boxers, and Chesapeake Bay Retrievers) a late onset and horrible condition . . . again a recessive gene but there are complications as the penetrance is incomplete (a large number of dogs that test genetically affected show no clinical symptoms). There are obviously other risk factors that contribute. There are possibly other gene combinations alongside that are harmless on their own, but cause difficulties in combination with this one, or possibly environmental factors . . .

On the human side, this is exciting for those suffering from Lou Gehrig's Disease (ALS), as the mutation that causes canine DM is the same as that which causes human ALS.

IF CM/SM is polygenic it will be more difficult to find, but that gives all the more reason for breeders to contribute as much information as they can . . . and it CAN come to a great end and help with human sufferers as well.

Clairelou
19th October 2009, 06:20 PM
Just wanted to say how much I am enjoying and learning from this thread - lots :)

Karen and Ruby
19th October 2009, 06:22 PM
I have held off saying anything on this thread as
a) I dont have any breeding experience
b)I have been 'told off' for comments made in the past

But I will say something as
a) I have 1 dog with advanced SM
b)I have a new rescue 10 month old with Mitral Valve dispasia and in my opinion shows all the signs of having SM

2 out of 2 dogs with both of the main causes off concern in the breed

I had a look over on CC today and was shocked and appauled at the comments some were making and I can say here and now that I will NEVER purchase a pup again.
This is sad to say as I have a lot of love and energy for this breed but I wouldnt want to fund some of the breeding practices that are taking place around the UK!

DONT WE ALL JUST WANT A HEALTHY BREED......REALLY!!!!!!

I am sick and tired of reading the back and forth bashing between some and cant we all just come together and so what is best for the breed.
If right now all we have to go on is breeding protocol then so be it- if in a few years time we have a better protocol then so be that.
It is extremely disheartening as a pet owner to see that breeders cant agree on what is best. If breeders cant agree with experts and so on then truely WHAT HOPE DO CAVS HAVE... in answer NONE!!!

From a very saddened pet owner

Karen

*Pauline*
19th October 2009, 06:30 PM
I quite agree Karen.

EddyAnne
19th October 2009, 06:52 PM
Eddy,

I sure am getting lost now, what do you mean by Certain Genes could now be being involved.

Bet yes Professor Geneticist Dr Guy Rouleau did mention what I mentioned. Do you want a link to the Conference Presentation Video and it's still on the internet.

Bet it appears the Genetic Researchers particularly want "over 5 years of age, but preferably over 7, who have been MRI’d and do NOT have SM" and in a familial group, and to have a number of them so that they can compare their genes with the genes of a number of those "who have been MRI’d and DO have SM". A DNA comparison in genes from those in one group to the other group could be of help in finding all the genes involved. Comparative research like this tends to be commonly used where the clear group tends to be mentioned as the "control group".

Think of the Type 1 Diabetes Research that you were involved with where they used one group of Cavaliers that DID HAVE Diabetes and another group of Cavalier that DID NOT HAVE Diabetes, plus other breeds who were also similarly involved. Also keep in mind that the Genetic Research for CM/SM is also involving another dog breed to help find the GENES for CM/SM.
.

Bet
19th October 2009, 06:57 PM
I have been a Saddened Cavalier Pet Owner for around 20 years.

What is happening to-day with the Cavalier SM Problem is no different than what happened all those years ago with the Cavaliers' Heart problem.

I would have thought that the Cavalier Breeders who are dragging their feet about the SM Problem would have learnt their lesson by this time about the Mess some or most Cavalier Breeders have caused the Breed by burying their Head in the Sand about the Breed's MVD Problem.

To read the Bland Cavalier Notes of N Inglis ,you would think all is well with the Cavalier Breed.

Many of us Broken Hearted Cavalier Pet Owners know differently.

EddyAnne
19th October 2009, 07:40 PM
An indicator gene was found for Boxer Cardiomyopathy,

I heard about Arrhythmogenic Right Ventricular Cardiomyopathy in Boxers, and now there is a DNA test available, see here where anyone can test their boxer.
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/deptsVCGL/Boxer/test.aspx

I think that this helps to provide "DNA fine mapping details of the HEART" and I'm thinking in relation to ALL DOGS HEARTS.

Oreo there certainly are a number of things happening lately regarding DNA, but it did require dog breeds to do their part.
.

EddyAnne
19th October 2009, 08:11 PM
On the human side, this is exciting for those suffering from Lou Gehrig's Disease (ALS), as the mutation that causes canine DM is the same as that which causes human ALS.

Oreo many thanks for that. When I have some more free time I'll have to look closely into that. Regarding some Hereditary Diseases and DNA Research I think that dogs can help humans, and humans can help dogs. The LUPA Project certainly thinks so and I think that so do many other DNA Research Centres around the world.

Some time ago I thought of things, even things like this where Cavaliers may suggest an excellent comparative and spontaneously occurring disease model of human Type 1 Diabetes, and the following from this address. Abstract as below and document in PDF format from this address.
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/98/5/518.pdf

Abstract
Canine diabetes is a complex genetic disease of unknown aetiology. It affects 0.005–1.5% of the canine population and shows a clear breed predisposition with the Samoyed being at high risk and the Boxer being at low risk of developing the disease. Canine diabetes is considered to be a disease homologue for human type 1 diabetes (T1D). It results in insulin deficiency as a consequence of autoimmune destruction of islet b-cells in the pancreas and is believed to be mediated by Th1 cytokines (IFNc, TNFa, and IL-2). A number of genes have been associated with type 1 diabetes in humans, including the human leukocyte antigen region, the insulin variable number tandem repeat, PTPN22, CTLA4, IL-4, and IL-13. As yet, these genes have not been evaluated in canine diabetes. In this study, 483 cases of canine diabetes and 869 controls of known breed were analyzed for association with IFNc, IGF2, IL-10, IL-12b, IL-6, insulin, PTPN22, RANTES, IL-4, IL-1a and TNFa. Minor allele frequencies were determined for these genes in each breed. These data were used for comparative analyses in a case control study, and clear associations with diabetes were identified in some breeds with certain alleles of candidate genes. Some associations were with increased susceptibility to the disease (IFNc, IL-10, IL-12b, IL-6, insulin, PTPN22, IL-4, and TNFa), whereas others were protective (IL-4, PTPN22, IL-6, insulin, IGF2, TNFa). This study demonstrates that a number of the candidate genes previously associated with human T1D also appear to be associated with canine diabetes and identifies an IL-10 haplotype which is associated with diabetes in the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. This suggests that canine diabetes is an excellent comparative and spontaneously occurring disease model of human T1D.
.

jacies
19th October 2009, 08:52 PM
I am sick and tired of reading the back and forth bashing between some and cant we all just come together and so what is best for the breed.
If right now all we have to go on is breeding protocol then so be it- if in a few years time we have a better protocol then so be that.
It is extremely disheartening as a pet owner to see that breeders cant agree on what is best. If breeders cant agree with experts and so on then truely WHAT HOPE DO CAVS HAVE... in answer NONE!!!

From a very saddened pet owner

Karen[/QUOTE]

I quite agree with you Karen, I am amazed that my original question has resulted in such a long thread. Although I have found it interesting and quite baffling as well as don't understand half of it and just know what I have to go through with my poor Chaos on a day to day basis.
I am also wondering if the latest trend of mating cavaliers to other breeds such as pugs and poodles could result in this horrible disease spreading to these other breeds if two such crosses were mated together and then back to pugs or poodles if they looked like them. Maybe someone could enlighten me on this.

WoodHaven
19th October 2009, 09:07 PM
That would be very hard to say. Most cross breds are relegated to the F1 generation. F2 is difficult to get conformity breeders were looking for (which many labra and goldendoodle breeders have found).

Clairelou
19th October 2009, 09:30 PM
[/QUOTE] I am also wondering if the latest trend of mating cavaliers to other breeds such as pugs and poodles could result in this horrible disease spreading to these other breeds if two such crosses were mated together and then back to pugs or poodles if they looked like them. Maybe someone could enlighten me on this.[/QUOTE]


The dalmation breed has had great health benefits by being crossed with pointers. :thmbsup:

Oreo
19th October 2009, 09:46 PM
In Australia a Cavalier x Shih Tzu has been diagnosed with SM. From a thread I read she has contributed a DNA sample for research. Of course we don't know if this was a first generation cross, or the product of two Cavalier x Shih Tzus bred together (maybe even closely related ones), as I understand puppymills would not hesitate to breed brother and sister crossbreeds together as a cheap way to establish larger numbers of breeding stock.

These threads are about Chanel, the Cavalier x Shih Tzu mix with SM.
http://www.dolforums.com.au/lofiversion/index.php/t113167.html

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=114708&pid=2070522&mode=threaded&start=

WoodHaven
19th October 2009, 09:55 PM
Wow, the ultimate outcross (mixed breed) and she still got SM. Inbreeding wouldn't be an issue for this dx. Oreo- Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

Oreo
19th October 2009, 10:19 PM
It is totally within the realm of possibilities for SM to strike a crossbreed, when SM is known to occur in both parent breeds . . . as it is with MVD, patella luxation, hip dysplasia etc.

The prevalence rate should not be left out of the picture though. Right now not enough about SM in other breeds is known. I understand the Brussels Griffon, although not having as high a prevalence of rate of CM as Cavaliers do, does have a fairly high rate of SM. It is the only other breed that has had many MRIs.

Now that would be a wonderful first cross for those with no knowledge of researched breeding to start on.:rolleyes:

But as much as I can be sarcastic, there are lessons to be learned from the Dalmation backcross and a guided and well researched crossbreeding program, when indeed a breed has no individuals left to get good genes from (as happened with the dals). Let's hope CM/SM does not get that far into the breed.

WoodHaven
19th October 2009, 10:24 PM
This is what I got from a dal breeder.

Bob Schaible bred a Dalmatian to a pointer 35 years ago to introduce a gene for normal uric acid that was supposedly lost from out gene pool. He did not keep records. He said he had no problems with the dogs he kept…about 12 over the course of 35 years.

We do have a genetic test that will let us know if the dog in question has the gene for high uric acid or normal uric acid.

Uric acid is not the problem. The problem is Dals can get urate stones. What causes them or why one Dal can get stones and another doesn’t is unknown. We have a pilot study in the works to find this out.



Interesting reading

http://www.dalmatianheritage.com/about/nash_research.htm

Karen and Ruby
19th October 2009, 10:46 PM
There was an article in dogs today magazine either last month or the one before about Dallies and the association between the spots and a predisposition to high uric acid therefor urate stones and it too talked about an outcross to a pointer and the problem being somewhat prevented in these outcrosses- probably talking about the same person as you have talked about Sandy.
As ive said before Im no expert but it made for interesting reading
In short it said that high uric acid was directly associated with breed lines breeding for certain conformation with spots.
Well thats what I took from the article.

Karen

EddyAnne
20th October 2009, 03:54 AM
It is totally within the realm of possibilities for SM to strike a crossbreed, when SM is known to occur in both parent breeds . . . as it is with MVD, patella luxation, hip dysplasia etc.

The prevalence rate should not be left out of the picture though. Right now not enough about SM in other breeds is known. I understand the Brussels Griffon, although not having as high a prevalence of rate of CM as Cavaliers do, does have a fairly high rate of SM. It is the only other breed that has had many MRIs.

Now that would be a wonderful first cross for those with no knowledge of researched breeding to start on.:rolleyes:

Yes within the realm of possibilities and today where DNA testing already exists for some breeds it has been proven by DNA.
Example say if any of the breeds via this link were crossed it would be advisable to DNA test the parents before doing so, and note the following from that page.
http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test_prcd_pra.html
"It’s been proven that all breeds being tested for prcd-PRA have the same disease caused by the same mutated gene. This is so, even though the disease might develop at different ages or with differing severity from one breed to another."

Regarding CM/SM, here is a presentation slide by Dr Guy Rouleau which shows some other breeds and in time more breeds might be added, and with things like the above in mind I think one would have to seriously think about the realm of possibilities if thinking about cross breeding.

http://members.wideband.net.au/safcav/1A/SlideOtherBreeds.jpg
.

Bet
20th October 2009, 09:19 AM
The problem with our Cavalier Breed ,and this has been stated in Veterinary Papers.

That Cavaliers get MVD at a much younger than other Breeds, this is the worrying problem.

That Cavaliers have Larger Brains .

Bet
20th October 2009, 09:55 AM
Eddy,

Have a read from Karlin's latest Thread, this is for a lay person ,exciting news.

Only know that when this Membrane mentioned becomes inflamed it has similiar symptoms to those Cavaliers suffering from SM

brome
20th October 2009, 02:10 PM
Yes I do believe you are doing the right thing by discussing sm with other cavalier owners. I myself have a cavalier that was diganosed last week with syringomyelia. I had no knowledge of this condition before all this happened to my 8 year old cav....Sophia. I wish I had known before hand and I wouldn't have been hit with this blindsided...so to speak. I would have know earlier some of the signs acossiated with sm. Instead I shunned it all off as being quirks she has or her getting older. I don't believe it would have changed the fact that I would have gotten her anyway. I can't change what has alredy happened but if I would have know earlier about this condition I could have gotten her help sooner. Sophia is such a sweet and loving dog, it breaks my heart to know that she could have been suffering...for a few years now. But she is on medication now and is doing so much better. Since I have went through this, I believe that all cavalier owners and anyone thinking of getting a cavalier should be aware of syringomyelia. There should be strict regulations for testing to make sure this condition is not carried on to further generations for the sake of the dog. It is a very cruel condition.
So yes, you should talk about sm.
http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii407/freebird_bz/Sophia.jpg

Cathy T
20th October 2009, 04:18 PM
I wish I had known before hand and I wouldn't have been hit with this blindsided...so to speak. I would have know earlier some of the signs acossiated with sm. Instead I shunned it all off as being quirks she has or her getting older


Excellent post...and exactly why I say "yes, please talk to others about health issues". So many Cavalier owners aren't aware of SM and MVD and it's up to us to educate and enlighten them. I am thankful I was aware of what SM is and what the signs are so that when I noticed odd behavior in my girl that it wasn't a "quirky" behavior (I didn't know about patellas when she was little and put her "funny little walk" down to a quirk, not realizing she had a bad knee) I knew I needed to have her looked at further.

I think the key is not approach this in a "preachy" manner but rather in a way of sharing information.

So glad you were able to sort out what was going on with Sophia, get her on medication and improve her quality of life. Good for you. Please keep us updated on how she does. She looks like such a sweet girl.

Bet
20th October 2009, 05:59 PM
Brome,

You have Hit the Nail on the Head with your Post.

This is what we Cavalier Owners can do for our Breed, just make Folk who are thinking of getting a Cavalier ,make them aware of the questions that should be being asked from the Cavalier Breeder, and most importantly ,if the Breeder can't show a Health Certificate that Health Tests have been carried out on their Breeding Stock ,then they go to a Breeder who does this.

Hope all goes well with Sophia.

brome
22nd October 2009, 11:32 PM
Thanks Cathy for your concern about Sophia. She is doing very well. She had her 1st checkup yesterday and the doc said she was amazed how well she was doing. Sophia is walking now, falls sometimes and is still a little wobbly. She has not been shaking her head in the past couple of days. She has also been going outside to go to the bathroom. that is really good because only a week and a half ago she could not stand up without falling in order to go out and take care of her business. I was helping her at first by holding her to help keep her balance, then I started putting her harness on her and with her leash I could help to balance her so she wouldn't fall. Then after about 4 days she acted like she didn't want me to help her. She would just sit on the grass and look at me. So I took the harness off and after that she started doing it all on her own. She is a very independant. Accept when she wants to be babied..:) Also she is eatting and drinking, the first few days she could not hold her head up nor did she have the entergy to eat ot drink. Sophia has been eatting so good she put on 2lbs. :oops:We have to watch the weight thing. Anyway, she's doing great.....thank God!
But back to the subject about sm, Sophia and I have been through a lot over the past week and a half, so yes, cavalier owners and people that are thinking of getting that type breed need to know about the condition.
Sophia's mommy, Brenda