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Bet
19th October 2009, 05:59 PM
I don't know about others on this List, but on the Cavalier Chat List the Thread has been closed about the mention of a Cavalier Bitch being involved with Back to Back Matings.

Did this or did it not happen ,if it did I sure think it's a Welfare Issue. .and no better than what is taking place at Puppy Farms, or being carried out by BYB's.

If other Cavalier Breeders are also carrying out this way of treating their Cavalier Breeding Bitches, is it not about time they were being exposed .

WoodHaven
19th October 2009, 06:53 PM
Bet, in the USA, you would be surprised how many experts (reproduction vets) wouldn't think anything about a back to back breeding.

Our clubs coe says not to breed any more than two season out of three-- which would allow for a back to back.

Bet
20th October 2009, 09:12 AM
Sandy,

Thank Goodness I live in Britain where more consideration is given to our Cavaliers !

Our UK CKCS CLUB says ,on their WEB SITE ,NO CAVALIER BITCH MUST have NO MORE than ONE LITTER in ANY 12 MONTHS

WoodHaven
20th October 2009, 01:22 PM
Sandy,

Thank Goodness I live in Britain where more consideration is given to our Cavaliers !

Our UK CKCS CLUB says ,on their WEB SITE ,NO CAVALIER BITCH MUST have NO MORE than ONE LITTER in ANY 12 MONTHS

BET-- it is giving great consideration to the bitch. It is healthier in a long run to have a bitch spay earlier than later (less chance of certain cancers). A bitches uterus while pregnant isn't being bombarded with hormones that will age her uterus and cause pyo. Back to back in a healthy bitch of 2 to 4 years (especially if there was only one or two pups)was considered completely fine.
These are experts in the field of reproduction Bet-- doctors who study this specific issue.
*

Bet
20th October 2009, 05:47 PM
Sandy,

All I can say the experts you are mentioning hav'nt got the Welfare of the Cavalier Bitch.

Thank Goodness we do things differently here in Britain!

WoodHaven
20th October 2009, 06:13 PM
Sandy,

All I can say the experts you are mentioning hav'nt got the Welfare of the Cavalier Bitch.

Thank Goodness we do things differently here in Britain!

I JUST explained Bet that it is FOR the cavaliers HEALTH benefit. :crash:

The doctor that said this has been IN the field of dog health for almost 3 decades.
Where is the brick wall smilie anyway.

Cathy T
20th October 2009, 08:44 PM
Here you go Sandy :bang:

Bet
21st October 2009, 11:06 AM
Sorry about this Folks,but never having been a Cavalier Breeder ,and a Lover of Cavaliers,I have just got to repeat again, that the UK CKCS CLUB say on their Club WebSite, that NO CAVALIER BITCH MUST HAVE NO MORE THAN ONE LITTER IN ANY 12 MONTH PERIOD.

I guess Sandy must disagree with this Statement.

This is the end of my argument about this.

Karen and Ruby
21st October 2009, 11:12 AM
In my personal opinion pregnancy is EXHAUSTING stuff- bitches are pregnant for, 9 weeks and look after the young for anything from 6-10/12 weeks from what ive heard.
They come in season every 6 months or so (24 weeks) so surely this would only give them a couple of weeks break in between each pregnancy.
I dont know much about mating but from what ive heard the dogs are paired up for a couple of weeks or so to conceive.
So from start to finish its anything from 17 weeks to 22 weeks of the dogs life.
That to me sounds exhausting and I certainly wouldnt want to do it all again 2-3 weeks later!!
Poor girls

Karen

WoodHaven
21st October 2009, 01:06 PM
Sorry about this Folks,but never having been a Cavalier Breeder ,and a Lover of Cavaliers,I have just got to repeat again, that the UK CKCS CLUB say on their Club WebSite, that NO CAVALIER BITCH MUST HAVE NO MORE THAN ONE LITTER IN ANY 12 MONTH PERIOD.

I guess Sandy must disagree with this Statement.

This is the end of my argument about this.

Not me personally Bet. I've never bred a bitch back to back. But I know how much YOU put stock in what the experts say. IF a bitch has a small litter and IF she bounces back well-- there are experts that say that a pregnant bitches uterus is HEALTHIER than a non pregnant bitch.. Of course if a bitch had a large litter or difficulties- then EVERYONE would agree that it isn't in the bitches best interest. You would only EVER breed a healthy bitch.

There are/were many antiquated ideas out there.

WoodHaven
21st October 2009, 01:16 PM
In my personal opinion pregnancy is EXHAUSTING stuff- bitches are pregnant for, 9 weeks and look after the young for anything from 6-10/12 weeks from what ive heard.
They come in season every 6 months or so (24 weeks) so surely this would only give them a couple of weeks break in between each pregnancy.
I dont know much about mating but from what ive heard the dogs are paired up for a couple of weeks or so to conceive.
So from start to finish its anything from 17 weeks to 22 weeks of the dogs life.
That to me sounds exhausting and I certainly wouldnt want to do it all again 2-3 weeks later!!
Poor girls

Karen

Yes, bitches are in whelp for 56-64 days. They whelp and are extremely attentive for a few weeks. Then they often let others clean and even nurse their young. Having offspring in a pack dynamic is different than having one mother. There is no three months of exhausting mothering to be done. I've had mothers begin to wean their pups at 4 weeks and be DONE with them at 5. Their teeth are coming in at 4 and it can be very irritating.
I've shown a bitch 4 weeks after she lost a litter. She was completely healed. There would have been no reason that 13 weeks from then she couldn't have been bred. I didn't.
No, dogs are NOT paired up for a couple of weeks to conceive. Usually there are one to three breedings over the course of one to four days. depending on whether or not blood tests were done. A bitches eggs are only fertile for a maximum of a couple of days. Anyone who would breed their bitches over and over through the course of even a week doesn't know what they are doing.
Oops, I gotta go-- work calls

Brian M
21st October 2009, 02:59 PM
Hi

Wait for the bombs to go off on the other side.:eek::lpy:

WoodHaven
21st October 2009, 03:25 PM
Hi

Wait for the bombs to go off on the other side.:eek::lpy:

LOL-- Brian!!!!
We have a LAW here in the US, that states you can't drink alcoholic beverages until you are 21. ( you can go into service and die for your country at 18 ) Do all countries have this LAW. NO. It was established as a way to deal with .... well ..... stupidity.
I believe the UK c of e was put in place for the same reason. Not because scientifically it was for the best. But as an attempt to deal with SOME breeders overbreeding their bitches. (stupidity-- meaning it would be stupid to risk a bitch and pups like that).

Now do I feel that the European countries are negligent for allowing "underage drinking". NO.

Bet
21st October 2009, 05:15 PM
Sandy , I was not going to mention any more about Cavalier Breeders Breeding from their Cavaliers with back to back matings, but thanks to Karen's information I would just like to add ,that Cavalier Breeders who are carrying out this Breeding Policy ,against the Rules for Cavalier Breeding Bitches,have Scunnered me,Scot's word for Sickened me.

In Britain ,you keep saying that it's different in America, there seems to be a lot more thought being given to Cavalier Breeding Bitches.

I am sure there will now be other Pet Owners, Lovers of the Cavalier Breed who like me will have had their eyes opened by this Cavalier Breeding Practice. There is just no excuse for it .,for all the reasons that some Cavalier Breeders can concoct!

WoodHaven
21st October 2009, 05:27 PM
I was told according to the policy, you can get permission to breed back to back. Just like in our club, they do realize that sometimes what is in the best interest of the dog isn't what is in the book.

Bet, do you really believe that politicians KNOW more about breeding than breeders and EXPERTS in this field????

Margaret C
22nd October 2009, 12:19 AM
I have read the various posts here and on the other forum and must admit to a sinking feeling that cavaliers as a breed really don't have much of a future. Top breeders still believe that they should be left to do what they want, when they want to do it.
Leading by example and breeding for health are not concepts they seem to understand.

In the good old days dog breeding was the hobby of wealthy people. The kennels were large and if line breeding, or inbreeding, or even outcrossing to another breed was carried on, and proved disastrous, then the resulting puppies were culled or given away.
With no internet forums where pet owners could contact each other, these puppies disappeared from general view and any inconvenient questions could be brushed aside.
The breeders could afford to remove the parents from their breeding programme because they had replacements for both breeding and showing.

Nowadays the whole scene has changed. The majority of breeders only have the room & the money to keep a handful of dogs. The diagnosis of a hereditary condition in their show winning stock can leave them with nothing to breed on with.
The temptation is to say nothing about the unfortunate diagnosis and hope it will not be passed on to future puppies. Youngsters showing very early symptoms can be sold while they can still command a reasonable price.

Some of the current breeders are now quoting what old time breeders did, and you can hear in every sentence just how much they resent the limitations that are now being imposed on them.

Those long ago, experienced, breeders did have to learn from their mistakes, as it was the only way to do it then, but the cost was in dogs that suffered and owners who dealt with heartbreak.
The world is different now, more compassionate, and like it or not, if breeders ignore the codes and protocols designed to protect animals that have no voice, then society will do something about it.

An experienced breeder may consider themselves able to decide to mate a bitch on three consecutive seasons, or put her through three cesarean sections, and it may be that in other countries the thinking is different, but how then do you qualify 'experienced breeder' and how do you stop someone who is a beginner from believing that if long established breeders do something, then so can they?

The protocols will only work if everybody sticks to them. If the protocols don't work then SM will get worse in every generation of cavaliers and pet owners will stop buying expensive heartbreak.

Everybody can find a reason why this time the protocols should not count for them, and so they mate bitches too young because they don't want winter puppies, or they mate a year bitch because she is too immature for the show ring and they can't wait for her to mature naturally, or they use a 10 month dog at stud because otherwise he would never know what to do. ( yes, I believed that too when I first had a cavalier stud dog, but luckily no one had told my three year old chin dog when I came to use him )

Until the 'guardians of the breed' stop using their cavaliers as commodities ( and I do not think that anybody who really love their dogs talks about them the way some of these breeders do) then nothing will improve for these lovely little dogs.

chloe92us
22nd October 2009, 01:35 AM
Great post, Margaret. That is exactly how I feel.

tara
22nd October 2009, 02:31 AM
Here's a thought -- have any of you who criticize breeders so strongly considered breeding yourselves? For those of you who have done so in the past, what about starting a breeding program again under the guidelines you propose? If we fear for the breed's future (no arguments from me there), then how about getting involved in breeding itself?

It is so very easy to criticize breeders if you're not one -- I'm not arguing the merits of either side here (I don't know enough to do so). But if breeders are doing it so wrong, why not throw your hats into the ring and help make it better? Then you could say, "this is how I do it and this is why you're wrong." Leading by example can be very effective.

WoodHaven
22nd October 2009, 03:06 AM
I have read the various posts here and on the other forum and must admit to a sinking feeling that cavaliers as a breed really don't have much of a future. Top breeders still believe that they should be left to do what they want, when they want to do it.
Leading by example and breeding for health are not concepts they seem to understand.

In the good old days dog breeding was the hobby of wealthy people. The kennels were large and if line breeding, or inbreeding, or even outcrossing to another breed was carried on, and proved disastrous, then the resulting puppies were culled or given away.
With no internet forums where pet owners could contact each other, these puppies disappeared from general view and any inconvenient questions could be brushed aside.
The breeders could afford to remove the parents from their breeding programme because they had replacements for both breeding and showing.

Nowadays the whole scene has changed. The majority of breeders only have the room & the money to keep a handful of dogs. The diagnosis of a hereditary condition in their show winning stock can leave them with nothing to breed on with.
The temptation is to say nothing about the unfortunate diagnosis and hope it will not be passed on to future puppies. Youngsters showing very early symptoms can be sold while they can still command a reasonable price.

Some of the current breeders are now quoting what old time breeders did, and you can hear in every sentence just how much they resent the limitations that are now being imposed on them.

Those long ago, experienced, breeders did have to learn from their mistakes, as it was the only way to do it then, but the cost was in dogs that suffered and owners who dealt with heartbreak.
The world is different now, more compassionate, and like it or not, if breeders ignore the codes and protocols designed to protect animals that have no voice, then society will do something about it.

An experienced breeder may consider themselves able to decide to mate a bitch on three consecutive seasons, or put her through three cesarean sections, and it may be that in other countries the thinking is different, but how then do you qualify 'experienced breeder' and how do you stop someone who is a beginner from believing that if long established breeders do something, then so can they?

The protocols will only work if everybody sticks to them. If the protocols don't work then SM will get worse in every generation of cavaliers and pet owners will stop buying expensive heartbreak.

Everybody can find a reason why this time the protocols should not count for them, and so they mate bitches too young because they don't want winter puppies, or they mate a year bitch because she is too immature for the show ring and they can't wait for her to mature naturally, or they use a 10 month dog at stud because otherwise he would never know what to do. ( yes, I believed that too when I first had a cavalier stud dog, but luckily no one had told my three year old chin dog when I came to use him )

Until the 'guardians of the breed' stop using their cavaliers as commodities ( and I do not think that anybody who really love their dogs talks about them the way some of these breeders do) then nothing will improve for these lovely little dogs.

Really?? These are the worst things you can think of happening to cavaliers?

Oreo
22nd October 2009, 06:43 AM
Here's a thought -- have any of you who criticize breeders so strongly considered breeding yourselves? For those of you who have done so in the past, what about starting a breeding program again under the guidelines you propose? If we fear for the breed's future (no arguments from me there), then how about getting involved in breeding itself?

It is so very easy to criticize breeders if you're not one -- I'm not arguing the merits of either side here (I don't know enough to do so). But if breeders are doing it so wrong, why not throw your hats into the ring and help make it better? Then you could say, "this is how I do it and this is why you're wrong." Leading by example can be very effective.

Tara, if you are suggesting that only those who breed dogs "would understand" other dog breeders and their challenges, and therefore others should not critique, that really is a bunch of rubbish.

Would you then suggest that only teachers should be allowed to critique other teachers . . . leaving the children's parents not allowed to have opinion on what goes on in the classroom?

Because a person is NOT a breeder, does not leave that person void of knowledge of the difficult tasks involved and the challenging decisions that breeders have to make.

As to suggesting that some of those concerned could get involved and lead by example, it is a wonderful idea. I hope some are inspired, but not everybody has the wherewithal or even time left in their life, to become a breeder. That should not preclude them from being able to formulate opinions on what is obviously right and wrong.

Of course, it would be much better for cavaliers being produced, currently, if more of those involved already would lead by example! (and I know some are . . . hat's off to you.)

I've gone back to re-read and re-read this thread, because I am astonished the merits of breeding a bitch three seasons in a row, with the first two whelps ending in c-secitons, can be argued at all.

That is not the same as arguing about mating two seasons in a row. I cannot believe there would be a REPRO specialist in any country that would suggest three back to back breedings, when the first two required c-sections, would be healthy for the bitch!!

Oreo
22nd October 2009, 06:49 AM
Great post, Margaret. That is exactly how I feel.

I'll echo that.

Bet
22nd October 2009, 09:14 AM
First of all can I thank Margaret for her Sympathetic Post for the well being of our Cavalier Breed.

She has said what many of us Cavalier Pet Owners are feeling since we have now found out what is taking place in Dark Side of Breeding Cavaliers.

To Sandy,

Yes, I believe that Politicians know more about Back to Back Matings than Experts and Breeders.

The Politicians have SHOWN COMPASSION FOR BREEDING BITCHES!

Bet
22nd October 2009, 11:44 AM
I have had a Coffee before Posting this comment, should I or should I not, but here goes , I really do think that some Cavalier Breeders are now showing themselves up in an Unpleasant Light...or is it in their True Colours.

What harm have we Broken Hearted Cavalier Pet Owners ever done them?

Are they annoyed that we are no longer afraid to come out into the open and say that the Cavalier Breed does have Health Problems ,as is shown particularly by the MVD and SM Problems afflicting Cavaliers.

To put it bluntly ,the Cavalier Breed is ,at the Moment, a Sick Breed, there is no disguising that fact.

All those Cavalier Breeders who are making those Snide and Sneering Remarks such as my mention of Politicians knowing more than the Experts and a number of Cavalier Breeders about the Back to Back Breeding of Breeding Bitches ,have at least shown Compassion for those Bitches ,are only alienating us Lovers of Cavaliers who are shocked by the antics of some of those Breeders.

I was around 20 years ago and was involved with the Heart Touble in the Cavalier Breed .

It was never like then, what it is with the Viciousness and Vindictiveness that is happening in the Cavalier World to-day.

I never had to demand an apology and got one, a couple of weeks ago, about some of the Scurrilousness Things being said about me. ..

sins
22nd October 2009, 12:17 PM
I really do think that some Cavalier Breeders are now showing themselves up in an Unpleasant Light...or is it in their True Colours.

Which reminds me, I saw someone on CC yesterday browsing.Username: Jemima.icon_nwunsureOf course she might be mistaken for someone else but if she spots anything fluorescent under the unpleasant light.....icon_whistling
Tara,
This really isn't a good time for amateurs to start breeding cavaliers,there's a strong possibility that it could make things very much worse.
It's a hard enough task just to find a pet puppy and join the queue,let alone find a breeding bitch over 2.5 years of age,SM screened and heart clear with parents over age five,heart clear etc....
and if you can find one,good luck with getting the owner to part with her.
It'd be easier to import a Sasquatch from Alaska.

As for the allegation about the bitch with the three of c sections,two of them back to back?
Leaving all protocols aside,all personalities out of the issue....
The pertinent question is:
If this actually occurred....Was this fair to the bitch?
Yes or No
Sins

Mindysmom
22nd October 2009, 12:43 PM
Sins I totally agree with you about breeders not wanting to part with their females. When I got Rylie I was really looking for a girl. I talked to one breeder who actually did have a litter of mostly girls. She explained to me that as both parents and all grandparents were fully health tested and clear of any health issues she really wanted to place her girls with other breeders or if she couldn't do that to a pet home that would agree to leave them unspayed until they were old enough for health testing (we never got into exactly who kept the girl if the breeder decided to use her as a breeder). This made a lot of sense to me so I decided that of all my criteria sex wasn't really that important and we did end up getting Rylie (from a different breeder)

Brian M
22nd October 2009, 12:45 PM
Sins

With being a lover of all and anything that lives and breaths on this earth of ours ,with a few obvious exceptions of a two legged variety ,and especially of our beautiful breed of Cavaliers ,and after taking note of all the arguements regarding C of E and the problems of the individual C S happenings ,to me it is still surely MORALLY WRONG to have put any living animal through the pain and stress of THREE C S .So my answer to this is the same as my Chairperson of the Cavalier Club I am proud to be a member of N O.:)

WoodHaven
22nd October 2009, 01:48 PM
Tara, if you are suggesting that only those who breed dogs "would understand" other dog breeders and their challenges, and therefore others should not critique, that really is a bunch of rubbish.
Critique-- you call this critiquing? Based on hearsay people, who don't know the whole story are judge, jury and executioners. I don't know all the facts, so I will refrain from judgement. IF there was an issue, I will let those in the 'know' deal with it.
Would you then suggest that only teachers should be allowed to critique other teachers . . . leaving the children's parents not allowed to have opinion on what goes on in the classroom?
No, but I would never expect an uneducated or under educated parent dictate how, when and why my child should learn something in the classroom.
Because a person is NOT a breeder, does not leave that person void of knowledge of the difficult tasks involved and the challenging decisions that breeders have to make.
You would be surprised at how much the average person DOESN'T know about dog breeding.
As to suggesting that some of those concerned could get involved and lead by example, it is a wonderful idea. I hope some are inspired,(me too) but not everybody has the wherewithal or even time left in their life, to become a breeder. That should not preclude them from being able to formulate opinions on what is obviously right and wrong.
Tara and I come from the States, we (especially she) understands the rights of people to have opinions and even express them. She deserves the right to have HER opinion expressed.

Of course, it would be much better for cavaliers being produced, currently, if more of those involved already would lead by example! (and I know some are . . . hat's off to you.)

I've gone back to re-read and re-read this thread, because I am astonished the merits of breeding a bitch three seasons in a row, with the first two whelps ending in c-secitons, can be argued at all.
It must be a cultural thing-- here in the states we have numerous experts in reproduction. We have accepted that intervention is often safer than not. Csections vs hours and hours of labor and a higher death toll.
That is not the same as arguing about mating two seasons in a row. I cannot believe there would be a REPRO specialist in any country that would suggest three back to back breedings, when the first two required c-sections, would be healthy for the bitch!!

Arghhh, I shouldn't read this before work....

Clairelou
22nd October 2009, 02:19 PM
Politicians don't just make decisions up off the top of their heads, facts, evidence, opinions of experts in that particular field go into making judgements.

Is there actually a law against breeding back to back 3 times in the UK? or does it just go against CKCS and KC guidelines? has this back to back x 3 now been proven? (I don't read the other forum any more, I don't have valium on tap!)

My personal opinion is I don't like it one bit. Given the choice I would imagine the bitch in question felt the same!!

WoodHaven
22nd October 2009, 02:40 PM
Which reminds me, I saw someone on CC yesterday browsing.Username: Jemima.icon_nwunsureOf course she might be mistaken for someone else but if she spots anything fluorescent under the unpleasant light.....icon_whistling
Tara,
This really isn't a good time for amateurs to start breeding cavaliers,there's a strong possibility that it could make things very much worse.
It's a hard enough task just to find a pet puppy and join the queue,let alone find a breeding bitch over 2.5 years of age,SM screened and heart clear with parents over age five,heart clear etc....
and if you can find one,good luck with getting the owner to part with her.
It'd be easier to import a Sasquatch from Alaska.

As for the allegation about the bitch with the three of c sections,two of them back to back?
Leaving all protocols aside,all personalities out of the issue....
The pertinent question is:
If this actually occurred....Was this fair to the bitch?
Yes or No
Sins

But the amateurs are the ones with all the answers (said tic). Many times I've seen "all you have to do is follow the protocols". Oh, we've had people on her that 'believe' all you have to do is breed a decent cavalier with another breed and presto, all the health concerns will disappear. Ughh.
I had a long discussion with a member of the DCA (dalmatians) and she disagrees with the 'success of crossbreeding' --

I agree that 3 c-sections in a row is harsh. But I don't know the circumstances.

sins
22nd October 2009, 03:11 PM
Arghhh, I shouldn't read this before work....
True, how do any of us ever get any work doneicon_blshing?
I'm at home after my day serving the multinational pharmaceutical industry:rolleyes:

I agree that 3 c-sections in a row is harsh. But I don't know the circumstances.
Also very true.
Sins

WoodHaven
22nd October 2009, 03:32 PM
Politicians don't just make decisions up off the top of their heads, facts, evidence, opinions of experts in that particular field go into making judgements.

Is there actually a law against breeding back to back 3 times in the UK? or does it just go against CKCS and KC guidelines? has this back to back x 3 now been proven? (I don't read the other forum any more, I don't have valium on tap!)

My personal opinion is I don't like it one bit. Given the choice I would imagine the bitch in question felt the same!!

I agree -- but many politicians are getting misinformation from groups that have agendas like "one generation and out" -- which is about people no longer being able to have any pets. The 'great politician' mindset here is: let's spay and neuter all the dogs. Some cities have tried to pass-- no breeding allowed.

WoodHaven
22nd October 2009, 03:41 PM
True, how do any of us ever get any work doneicon_blshing?
I'm at home after my day serving the multinational pharmaceutical industry:rolleyes:

Also very true.
Sins

I do appreciate that you have shown thoughtful interpretations from both sides of these disagreements, Sins. IMO, the ability to 'listen' to others and form your own opinion is wisdom. Even if you don't agree with me-rotfl

Bet
22nd October 2009, 03:46 PM
I am glad that this subject is now being discussed,I just don't think it can be acceptible for any Cavalier Breeder to put their Cavalier through Back to Back Matings.

I am glad that there are a number of Cavalier Pet Owners with the same thoughts as I have.

I don't think a clause needs to be being interpreted by a Cavalier Breeder as to whether this is what should be happening to a Cavalier Breeding Bitch or not,surely commonsense and a little bit of Compassion would'nt go amiss.

WoodHaven
22nd October 2009, 03:56 PM
I am glad that this subject is now being discussed,I just don't think it can be acceptible for any Cavalier Breeder to put their Cavalier through Back to Back Matings.

I am glad that there are a number of Cavalier Pet Owners with the same thoughts as I have.

I don't think a clause needs to be being interpreted by a Cavalier Breeder as to whether this is what should be happening to a Cavalier Breeding Bitch or not,surely commonsense and a little bit of Compassion would'nt go amiss.

I told you Bet, that I was told that under certain circumstances in the UK-- a cavalier bitch can be bred twice, back to back.
In the US, under certain circumstances, it is considered HEALTHIER being in whelp than not, so a back to back wouldn't be a major worry.

Brian M
22nd October 2009, 04:17 PM
Hello Sandy

Hope you are fine ,just a comment from me pls regarding the 3 CS incidents, my knowledge of the pros and cons of 3 on the bounce is very limited so I therefore cannot enter into the discussion on any rules and regulations referring to them ,and also do not have any idea of peoples involved.
Having only become a carer of Cavaliers within the last three years my wonder of their intellect and loving nature towards all living creatures grows daily so I personally cannot see why anybody would knowingly for any purpose whatsoever be it either monetry gain or plain avarice to just have a better Cavalier than your neighbours, in your opinion, put these beautiful animals through the pain and stress of 3 C sections one after another .Surely these companions feel pain and horror just like you and I and surely they would cry out if cut with a knife just like you or I ,so my own opinion is that these C sections have been inflicted on that poor Cavalier for the sole reason of personnel gain of the Cavaliers owner and so this then knowingly vitually borders on being basic cruelty to animals for which we have an organisation called The RSPCA to protect animals from people who inflict cruelty on them and any other animal they may own .So my best wishes to you Sandy and my comments are just my own thoughts from a diffrent angle.
Kindest Regards
brian

PS and pls treat me gently as I fully admit my knowlege of any aspect of breeding is nothing apart from human when I can say three sons one daughter and 2 C sections (there in the theatre at both ) 1 forceps (there again ) and 1 normal ie last but not least our Luke and there again .

Clairelou
22nd October 2009, 04:48 PM
Which reminds me, I saw someone on CC yesterday browsing.Username: Jemima.icon_nwunsureOf course she might be mistaken for someone else but if she spots anything fluorescent under the unpleasant light.....icon_whistling
Tara,
This really isn't a good time for amateurs to start breeding cavaliers,there's a strong possibility that it could make things very much worse.
It's a hard enough task just to find a pet puppy and join the queue,let alone find a breeding bitch over 2.5 years of age,SM screened and heart clear with parents over age five,heart clear etc....
and if you can find one,good luck with getting the owner to part with her.
It'd be easier to import a Sasquatch from Alaska.

As for the allegation about the bitch with the three of c sections,two of them back to back?
Leaving all protocols aside,all personalities out of the issue....
The pertinent question is:
If this actually occurred....Was this fair to the bitch?
Yes or No
Sins

In fairness Tara states "For those of you who have done so in the past, what about starting a breeding program again under the guidelines you propose?"

sins
22nd October 2009, 05:07 PM
Here's a thought -- have any of you who criticize breeders so strongly considered breeding yourselves?][/
:oops:That's the part of the question I was replying to.
*Not firing on all cylinders today.
SIns

Karlin
22nd October 2009, 06:10 PM
Tara, people who are concerned about breeding practice have many more constructive ways of contributing to future breed health than breeding themselves (not least as breeding dogs is not of interest: buying puppies from health focused breeders is. There's a huge difference. Just because I want better conditions for workers making clothes in developing countries doesn't mean I should set up a factory myself; I would rather work towards improved conditions).

What can people do? They can choose to buy their puppies from breeders who work with the best available advice on breeding and use the health protocols they want to see used. They can lobby clubs and KCs to better work towards breed health. They can raise funds for research. They can submit any tests done on their own dogs to researchers (many of us have spent far more on MRIs, often SOLELY for researchers, than breeders have. For example, the last 4 MRIs I had done were only done for research, not because I needed the MRI results). We can make submissions, as many have, to the working groups in the UK. We can work in many many ways towards better breed health and I encourage everyone to think about how they can make a personal contribution to this effort. :thmbsup:

As Sins says, the last thing the breed needs is more people breeding. I and many others prefer to work with the breeders who are putting the efforts into their own breeding programmes that we wish to see.

Believe me, every puppy buyer has the power to force through change simply by supporting health focused breeders. Every breeder needs to sell puppies to support their breeding programme and show hobby. As Margaret noted there are few breeders any longer who can simply hang on to extra puppies and run huge kennels. The puppies need to be sold. If people demand change in breeding practice before they will part with their money, breeders will be pushed by the power of YOUR dollar,pound,euro towards that goal. Unfortunately too many people still go for 'whatever puppies are available' because they want one now, not next month or next year, or they want the cheapest puppies. I see it happen over and over, including on this board where some find excuses for why this one time they need to buy the puppy from untested parents even though 'in theory' they believe in health testing. Make no mistake: that is as unethical and devastating to the breed as the worst type of breeder. Pet buyers need to wake up to their own implicit support of poor breeding practice through their unwillingness to pay for the bred-for-health puppy they claim they want but then do not actually buy. Health focused breeding has extra costs.

WoodHaven
22nd October 2009, 06:35 PM
Brian,
I don't know anyone who would 'plan' three litters in a row on one bitch. I would never plan on three c-sections, let alone three in a row-- but I don't know the details of how/why it happened (if it did). All I've heard is probably 4th or 5th hand what somebody said -- somebody did.
If they did violate a c of e and get brought up on charges of violations-- then they will stand and state their case and probably pay a fine. THAT is what our club would do. Violations = fines (usually). Do it habitually and you can get kicked out of the club.

I bred a bitch two times in a row once (neither time did it take). This was a very nice bitch (great SM and cardio results in her pedigree). We decided to take her to a repro expert-- during her season he gave her a full check up and then he opened her up to see if anything was wrong. He then checked her reproductive organs (I decided not to get to graphic here)-- she seemed 100% hearty and healthy. He then did a surgical AI. She conceived 6 puppies. The surgery, which is almost as invasive as a c-section didn't cause her much issue at all. It was very difficult to keep her from jumping off the furniture. 57 days later she naturally delivered all 6 pups. The first one had difficulties passing - got stuck and seemed O2 deprived. He died the next day. My mind always comes back to-- If I'd done a c-section- he probably would have lived.
Decisions are always easier in hindsight-- and it is much easier when it isn't your dog.

Karen and Ruby
22nd October 2009, 11:18 PM
I personally dont see having C sections in breeding is a problem.
Its not as if we are talking of Chihuahuas or British Bull Dogs that cant actually naturally deliver at all (from what ive read)
Cavaliers can naturally deliver that isnt the issue. Healthy dogs that are important as a part of a breeding program should be allowed to be bred from, C sections are a common place and I only wish that a friend of mine was allowed one as that way she wouldnt have lost her baby as he was too big to come out naturally but at the point the doctors gave in and agreed the little boy (Nicholas) had already suffocted and died.
But I would imagine that it takes longer than the normal recovery time of a natural whelp.
I take this from the fact that humans I know have spent up to two weeks recovering from a C section in hospital.
So yes to put a dog through 3 or even 2 consecutive C sections on seasons in my personal opinion is appauling.

However I certainly dont think that a healthy dog (one that as I said is important to a breeding program) shouldnt be bred from if she cant deliver naturally- I think this breed is too far gone health wise to not use a healthy dog for breeding. We need all the healthy dogs we can get!!

Karen

Karen and Ruby
23rd October 2009, 12:05 AM
Ooh I forgot to thank Sandy for explaining the breeding process in a bit more detail to me:-)

Karen

WoodHaven
23rd October 2009, 01:52 AM
Ooh I forgot to thank Sandy for explaining the breeding process in a bit more detail to me:-)

Karen

If you ever get the chance to help at a whelping, you will be amazed. Like witnessing any birth, it is a powerful experience.

Bet
23rd October 2009, 10:09 AM
Could I be allowed this comment.

Much mention is being made on the Cavalier Chat List at the moment ,on how Cavalier Breeders are feeling the same Pain as we Cavalier Pet Owners have,when we lost our Cherished Cavaliers at young ages, I know how dreadful it is to have our Pet die at any age, but, and I will stick to the MVD Cavalier Problem, I know more about it.

If has been claimed by those Cavalier Breeders , who feel distraught when their Cavalier dies, why on earth ,when the Ball was in their Court ,did they persist in Breeding Cavaliers who were dying at a young age from Heart Trouble.

This has been shown at the recent UK CKCS CLUB AGM ,when the Cardiologist said, 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age,.

That this is no better than the problem was 18 years ago.

I have said this before ,Dr B Cattanach ,Geneticist, and Bruce Field ,the CKCS's Health Representive , who were trying 20 years ago, to help the CKCS CLUB with the MVD Problem, walked away in disgust at the attitude of some Cavalier Breeders.

I really do wonder, if the dire straights the Breed is in because of the MVD Problem ,where it is now claimed that 100% of Cavaliers will be suffering from MVD at 10 years of age, will ever recover.

Now the Breed has the Insideous SM Disease to combat, .

There are some Cavalier Breeders trying their best ,as Karlin mentiond in fighting those Two Diseases afflicting the Breed,,so when Cavalier Breeders claim to understand the Distress we Cavalier Pet Owners know about when our Beloved Pet dies, then for goodness sake let all those Cavalier Breeders work with the Researchers ,Researching SM and MVD,pass on all the information they can .

Don't let it being said in 20 years time ,that MVD and SM is no better than it was in 2009.

Finally as Karlin also said, we Cavalier Pet Owners have our part to play in this, what an Important tool we now have, the INTERNET .

Spread the word ,don't buy from a Cavalier Breeder who has not carried out Health Tests on their Cavalier Breeding Stock .

Always ask to see a Health Certificate from a Cavalier Breeder showing that they have been concerned enough to have been Health Checking their Breeding Stock.

Yorkysue
24th October 2009, 06:53 PM
Could I be allowed this comment.

Much mention is being made on the Cavalier Chat List at the moment ,on how Cavalier Breeders are feeling the same Pain as we Cavalier Pet Owners have,when we lost our Cherished Cavaliers at young ages, I know how dreadful it is to have our Pet die at any age, but, and I will stick to the MVD Cavalier Problem, I know more about it.

If has been claimed by those Cavalier Breeders , who feel distraught when their Cavalier dies, why on earth ,when the Ball was in their Court ,did they persist in Breeding Cavaliers who were dying at a young age from Heart Trouble.


There are some Cavalier Breeders trying their best ,as Karlin mentiond in fighting those Two Diseases afflicting the Breed,,so when Cavalier Breeders claim to understand the Distress we Cavalier Pet Owners know about when our Beloved Pet dies, then for goodness sake let all those Cavalier Breeders work with the Researchers ,Researching SM and MVD,pass on all the information they can .

Finally as Karlin also said, we Cavalier Pet Owners have our part to play in this, what an Important tool we now have, the INTERNET .

Spread the word ,don't buy from a Cavalier Breeder who has not carried out Health Tests on their Cavalier Breeding Stock .

Always ask to see a Health Certificate from a Cavalier Breeder showing that they have been concerned enough to have been Health Checking their Breeding Stock.


Bet

I think you do some of these breeders a disservice when you seem to question whether they feel pain when they lose a much cherished dog. There can be no doubt that they will feel pain just as you do.

They recent posts on what causes MVD and SM have shown that both these problems are likely to be caused by a number of genes in each case. Breeding these problems out will take years and years.

I think you are bashing the wrong breeders. The ones you've just had a go at on the other forum are the ones who do test their dogs. Give credit where it's due. Just because you have fallen out with them, please don't turn against the very ones who are trying.:-)

Murphy
24th October 2009, 08:38 PM
Bet

I think you do some of these breeders a disservice when you seem to question whether they feel pain when they lose a much cherished dog. There can be no doubt that they will feel pain just as you do.

They recent posts on what causes MVD and SM have shown that both these problems are likely to be caused by a number of genes in each case. Breeding these problems out will take years and years.

I think you are bashing the wrong breeders. The ones you've just had a go at on the other forum are the ones who do test their dogs. Give credit where it's due. Just because you have fallen out with them, please don't turn against the very ones who are trying.:-)


Wise words Sue..............we are trying, very hard, and quite honestly, it can be very disheartening to be 'bashed' over and over again, when you are doing your best.
It can be difficult enough to recover from a bad result after following the protocol to the letter, without someone thrusting it in your face, in what sometimes feels like a 'gleeful' way.
Maintaining a relationship with puppy buyers is very important to me and to many of my fellow-breeders.
We, none of us, have any 'issues' with those to whom we have sold puppies, so it seems extremely unfair, even damaging, that someone like Bet seems to be on a mission to drive a wedge between those who breed to the best of their ability and those who buy from them.
I must add my surprise that many of her remarks are allowed to go uncensored on the Forum.

I only dip into the Cavaliertalk Forum occasionally, and do enjoy reading and helping a bit with the various posts when I can, so, if I am asked to leave now, as I suspect I will be, please accept my thanks for allowing me to join you even for such a short time.
Elspeth Glen

MARK MARSHALL
24th October 2009, 09:27 PM
Elspeth,

Some bashing is without doubt necessary but YOU are to the best of my knowledge NOT one of them to be so bashed. You have great knowledge and have been scanning for many years.

So, I would ask you personally not to feel disheartened because of some of your peers.

They know who they are and so do you.

I particularly bash those who dont scan. They ALL should be helping out with submitting results and any other form of data.

Those who refuse to do so and voice doubt on the scientists/researchers are not helping the breed.

Well done to you personally but some bashing must continue, otherwise it will all go quiet and breeding will continue outside of any protocols.

It is so important that the Club Committees and the KC give out the message that certain behaviour will not under any circumstances be ignored.

Regards Mark Marshall.

Murphy
24th October 2009, 11:05 PM
[QUOTE=MARK MARSHALL;339641]Elspeth,

Some bashing is without doubt necessary but YOU are to the best of my knowledge NOT one of them to be so bashed. You have great knowledge and have been scanning for many years.


So how do you then suggest I and my fellow-breeders explain to our puppy-buyers that we are in fact 'the good guys' when they have been left feeling that breeders, in general 'don't care'?

Who is to say that we are telling the truth?

I think it is very important to remember that there are people on the forum who may have acquired new puppies from very reliable sources.
The first few weeks can be rather daunting anyway for a novice owner , so a little sensitivity in this area might be helpful.
Spare a thought for them.

Of course it is important to carry out testing and many many breeders now are doing just that.
So please, allow them to get on, in peace, with what they know best.

I think the time has come to dispense with the 'bashing'.

As Sue has said: you are preaching to the converted.

Elspeth Glen

MARK MARSHALL
24th October 2009, 11:55 PM
The first thing to do is for the Good Guys to listen to the public, their customers and start selling themselves in a way that demonstrates why they are good.

Expecting bashing to stop will only help the ones that we need to make, change their ways.

The responsible Breeders (me included I trust) need to have more confidence and be prepared to shout more loudly.

A data base needs to be started where ALL good breeders register their dogs and openly record results for ALL health checks, especially SM MVD and EYES, plus others.

By doing this it will show and promote the Good guys and leave the Bad guys with a decision to make. Either change their ways or stay in the wilderness.

The Regional Clubs and especially the CKCS Club need to set Standards, rather than just going with the flow and not doing as they should for fear of upsetting mates or being alienated.

Yes the show scene might change for a while but the future will be better and the Breed will emerge stronger and lets hope, healthier.

Too many people have sensible things to say and wish for change but remain silent. Such silence is not productive and lets dominant people run the show.

Just look at who ends up in positions of strength and ask yourself, "What truely motivates this person ?"

The Good guys should know that they are good and promote scanning for example and sound like a Lion rather than a Mouse.

Regards Mark Marshall.

WoodHaven
25th October 2009, 12:37 AM
Interesting Mr. Marshall--- Very few of us in the world are saints (or destined for sainthood).
The more I read what you write, the more I can't accept where you are coming from.
I've raised two successful daughters-- didn't use any bashing, even when I disagreed with them. I found that leading by example and doing well to be the BEST way to get people to follow ones lead.
REALLY-- you are equating your supposed breeding guidelines for the definitive line between good breeders and bad breeders. Well, there is a commercial facility in Missouri that may change your mind.
I have permanent brick imprints on my forehead. icon_devil

Bet
25th October 2009, 09:54 AM
All I can ask again, this is about the MVD Problem ,is why on earth have the Cavalier Breeders ,since they claim to know about the Heart Ache that we Cavalier Pet Owners have known about when our Beloved Cavaliers have died at such early ages because of the MVD Problem that is rife in Cavaliers, did not do something about it ,when they were warned by Dr P Darke, and other Cardiologists, from about 30 years ago.

Hopefully some-body will answer this question.

It's all very well saying, that this that and the other is now being done, but the state the Cavaliers are in now, is it too late too save them, this should have been tackled years ago.

It is too be hoped that the SM Problem won't be going the same way as the Cavaliers MVD.

I have been told on the Phone by two Cavalier Breeders they will not be taking part in Dr Blott's EBV Program, even one said , that they would not be MRI Scanning.

I think Yorkiesue, that answers your question. Were any of the others who are havin a go at me, were you in the Cavalier Breed from 1980 onwards when the MVD Problem was getting warned about by the Cardiologists,. If you were, why has the MVD in Cavaliers reached the Proportions it has to-day.

Will some-body please tell me that.!!

Yorkysue
25th October 2009, 10:45 AM
All I can say is that both my first two cavaliers lived to nearly 14 yrs old - with no heart pills at all, and I have an oldie of nearly 12yrs old, who has just started on 1/2 pill a day, and he's fine and fighting fit, still going for long walks.

Are you absolutely sure that heart problems are worse now than in the past? I don't know.

I know you didn't do too well with your cavaliers,but lots of people have healthy dogs. I always keep mine nice and slim and not overwieght for a start! My next door neighbour's son, had had five or six dogs over the years from a well know local breeder (who has shown for 30-40 yrs) and all of them have lived well into their teens each time, with hardly a visit to the vets.

I can only say what I have seen, and I may have been lucky. But I a couple of friends that also have had cavaliers that have lived a long time.

What I read on this forum sometimes is that all cavaliers are ill and they are doomed. I don't know enough to comment on this with any authority, and I wonder if you do either? You quote specialists and experts, but often you seem to contradict youself.

Bashing people does not work - they just get fed up of listening - and then they ignore you.

Bet
25th October 2009, 12:09 PM
Yorkiesue ,

Can you or any-body else ignore the Fact that has been quoted on this List, that in 2007 8 of the Top Stud Cavaliers ,this in the UK CKCS CLUB Year Book were Bred from before they were 2 and a half Years of age.

This is the CKCS CLUB Breeding Guidelines for MVD.

As to your remark about letting our Cavaliers get fat ,we have had Pet Cavaliers since '73, so I think we knew not to let them get over-weght.

How- ever on the 2nd of November the APGAW Committee will be publishing their Report.

Just maybe they will have listened to what I have written to them about the serious MVD problem afflicting our Cavaliers.

Time will Tell.

Margaret C
25th October 2009, 05:31 PM
As Sue has said: you are preaching to the converted.

The problem is always with definition, how when writing a post do you manage to show that you are only talking about the breeders that are not breeding to the protocols?

Many cavalier owners visit these forums. I see posting here as a way of countering the inaccurate and misleading information put out by some of the top breeders that have most influence in cavalier circles.

I respect Elspeth as one of the most intelligent breeders I know, a lady who was one of the first to scan her cavaliers. I am truly sorry she feels that the ongoing discussions reflect badly on breeders of her calibre, but I am afraid in this case I do not agree that criticism of unethical breeders should stop.


So how do you then suggest I and my fellow-breeders explain to our puppy-buyers that we are in fact 'the good guys' when they have been left feeling that breeders, in general 'don't care'?

Who is to say that we are telling the truth?.

I would like to think your health certificates, and an explanation of how carefully you follow the breeding protocols, would do that.

While the people that are seen to represent breeders, the club members who get themselves elected onto committees that give them a powerful voice in the future of the breed, continue to defend the indefensible (the continued use of an early onset SM stud dog, or multiple C. sections in a bitch mated on three consecutive seasons) then the reputation of breeders will suffer.

If breeders of integrity allow these people to run cavalier clubs & appear to speak on behalf of the whole cavalier breeding community, then the ethical breeders will continue to be identified with the 'bad guys'

Pet owners may be justified in drawing the conclusion that breeders in general 'don't care'
There is a saying 'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.'

Margaret C
25th October 2009, 05:37 PM
Are you absolutely sure that heart problems are worse now than in the past? I don't know.



According to the Cavalier Club cardiologist the heart problems are no better despite having a Cavalier Club heart testing scheme for over 18 years.

The heart medications are better and now buys MVD cavaliers more time, but at a considerable monetary cost to the owner

WoodHaven
25th October 2009, 05:58 PM
According to the Cavalier Club cardiologist the heart problems are no better despite having a Cavalier Club heart testing scheme for over 18 years.

The heart medications are better and now buys MVD cavaliers more time, but at a considerable monetary cost to the owner

I wish I could see actual statistics instead of one doctors word being taken as the end all be ALL for cavaliers (and thus the doom and gloom).
According to my cardiologist-- he has seen improvements and MANY breeders keep dogs into their mid teens have told you that they don't see "HALF OF ALL CAVALIERS GETTING MURMURS" by 5.

WoodHaven
25th October 2009, 06:04 PM
The problem is always with definition, how when writing a post do you manage to show that you are only talking about the breeders that are not breeding to the protocols?

Many cavalier owners visit these forums. I see posting here as a way of countering the inaccurate and misleading information put out by some of the top breeders that have most influence in cavalier circles.

I respect Elspeth as one of the most intelligent breeders I know, a lady who was one of the first to scan her cavaliers. I am truly sorry she feels that the ongoing discussions reflect badly on breeders of her calibre, but I am afraid in this case I do not agree that criticism of unethical breeders should stop.





I would like to think your health certificates, and an explanation of how carefully you follow the breeding protocols, would do that.

While the people that are seen to represent breeders, the club members who get themselves elected onto committees that give them a powerful voice in the future of the breed, continue to defend the indefensible (the continued use of an early onset SM stud dog, or multiple C. sections in a bitch mated on three consecutive seasons) then the reputation of breeders will suffer.

If breeders of integrity allow these people to run cavalier clubs & appear to speak on behalf of the whole cavalier breeding community, then the ethical breeders will continue to be identified with the 'bad guys'

Pet owners may be justified in drawing the conclusion that breeders in general 'don't care'
There is a saying 'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.'


Define unethical: Is overbreeding a stud dog unethical??? It IS asking for trouble.
Our reputations ARE ALL READY IN THE TRASH. Thank to the PDE-- one puppy buyer recently believes that a broker importing cavaliers from Ireland (who doesn't show-- this is just a broker) is where they should be buying a cavalier puppy in the USA. THAT way the puppy won't be tainted by show breeders breeding for looks. AND it was half the price of a show breeder pup.
Congratulations-- you are now indirectly promoting puppy brokers.

Margaret C
25th October 2009, 06:27 PM
Define unethical: Is overbreeding a stud dog unethical??? It IS asking for trouble.
Our reputations ARE ALL READY IN THE TRASH. Thank to the PDE-- one puppy buyer recently believes that a broker importing cavaliers from Ireland (who doesn't show-- this is just a broker) is where they should be buying a cavalier puppy in the USA. THAT way the puppy won't be tainted by show breeders breeding for looks. AND it was half the price of a show breeder pup.
Congratulations-- you are now indirectly promoting puppy brokers.

Ethical....... Conforming to accepted standards of conduct.

The frequent use of a stud dog is certainly asking for trouble, as I found to my, and other breeders, cost.
Looking at the above definition it would seem it is not yet unethical.

In what way did anything I say promote puppy brokers?

Margaret C
25th October 2009, 06:33 PM
I wish I could see actual statistics instead of one doctors word being taken as the end all be ALL for cavaliers (and thus the doom and gloom).
According to my cardiologist-- he has seen improvements and MANY breeders keep dogs into their mid teens have told you that they don't see "HALF OF ALL CAVALIERS GETTING MURMURS" by 5.

Things may be different in the USA. As I frequently point out I am talking about the UK.

This one cardiologist has been receiving results from Cavalier Club members for a great many years, so I would think he knows what he is talking about

WoodHaven
25th October 2009, 06:44 PM
Things may be different in the USA. As I frequently point out I am talking about the UK.

This one cardiologist has been receiving results from Cavalier Club members for a great many years, so I would think he knows what he is talking about

My cardio has been coming to our place for 7 years-- He keeps impeccable records and has seen good improvement. To make such a blanket statement (your club cardio) I would hope that he got statistics from many areas and many cardiologists-- hopefully even went the extra mile to get stats from other countries.

The people buying from a broker have head how terrible the show breeders are. They mentioned the PDE program as to why they will buy from an importer who NEVER shows.
Also, I was told that the PDE has made many people run their cavaliers to the vet to discuss euthanasia -- Because the dog itches.

Karlin
25th October 2009, 06:48 PM
But puppy buyers have ALWAYS gotten that misinformation from BYBs/brokers from long, long LONG before PDE made the average person aware of the real problems the breed has (Jeez, when breeders officially get excited at a dog without a heart murmur at age 6, and of dogs that live to just 10, the world is topsy turvy and we have accepted a standard so low it is nearly scraping the ground as far as breed health goes).

MOST puppy buyers will still go for cheaper dogs or dogs they can get faster or the 'nice' breeder who almost always is the bulk pet breeder/broker online. For that matter, show breeders good or bad could never, ever handle all the demand there is for puppies.

So a few more people are duped by bybs and brokers into thinking their puppies are healthier regarding SM? I don' t see that coming up on the junk breeder websites (most of which try not to mention health at all in any specific way). Still how is that different from what such places have always said to the gullible buyer -- eg dogs from the UK/Ireland don't have MVD (that was the main message they typically gave 5 years ago :( ).

It is on the breeder-focused lists that breeders themselves are saying the club-supported screening programmes are showing that HALF of all show breeder cavaliers screened have syrinxes. This was said by two breeders on Cavalier Chat for example, one of them whom I am sure would agree is not exactly a friend of PDE. With that level of serious health problems in the breed clearly arising in breeder screenings, then the issue has to be for the breeders to create the programmes and health focused breeding and research programmes to tackle the problem. Not to blame the messenger that at least notified the public and it seems, the KC and many club breeders, that there is a problem in the first place or a problem they simply MUST stop hiding and underplaying, just as MVD is endlessly underplayed (how can we accept a dog that doesn't get a murmur til after age 5 is a bonus? How sad is that?).

The lies from brokers, BYBs and puppy farms are eternal. The problem is -- so many pet owners have gotten short shrift from the 'reputable' breeders when they go back to them with affected puppies (including threats of lawsuits -- I have seen the correspondence) that many simply do not see what extra value the club breeders are currently offering. There's a lot of housecleaning that needs to be done by breeders themselves for buyers to believe they offer a better and more trusted option than a BYB or broker. I have been unstinting in arguing that buyers should still support the genuine, health focused breeder -- and give specific information on three websites on how to do this and what to look for. But the breed's problems are there for all to see, and the difficulty of making the decision to go with this breed remains. I faced that when SM was hardly an issue, but the threat of MVD was a huge issue for me.

In my experience as a puppy buyer, breeders and club websites did very little to educate me about where to go and what to look for in a good breeder on a *practical* level. Too many BYB/broker websites are designed to look as if they do the things the clubs recommend (eg 'heart test'). Too many 'reputable' breeders of well known kennels on both sides of the Atlantic (I could name 3 to 4 off the top of my head that feature highly in many BYB dogs now!) sell dogs on open registration to junk breeders, allowing undereducated buyers to think their puppies are from 'champion' stock (well, they are), supposedly of better health (if anything, the assumption is STILL that a show bred dog is likely to be of BETTER health and quality from everything I read and hear from actual buyers) and therefore enable the buyers to assume the junk breeders aren't the money-focused pet sellers they are, using no health protocols at all. Why are breeders publicly and privately defending such breeders and their 'reputations'? I also know of a puppy buyer told by the health rep of a major club to trust them and buy a puppy from an underage sire (1 year old) and untested parents ('because they are of good stock') simply because they come from another show breeder they know. Yet the same person goes on and on about running as fast as possible from any breeder offering puppies that can't show heart certs.

With that kind of confused message and lack of clear guidance for buyers, even those seeking the health-focused breeders have a hard time finding them and easily give up. Lack of information, poorly educating the buyer or being opaque about health issues in public from breeders and clubs, means most buyers never even try.

WoodHaven
25th October 2009, 06:55 PM
They are starting to use PDE as basis for making a cheap cavalier purchase. That isn't going to be a good thing for the breed.

The 'average' dog lives to be 12.... After age 7, an mvd murmur isn't unusual. Many women in their 40's will get a murmur.

MARK MARSHALL
25th October 2009, 07:11 PM
Interesting Mr. Marshall--- Very few of us in the world are saints (or destined for sainthood).
The more I read what you write, the more I can't accept where you are coming from.
I've raised two successful daughters-- didn't use any bashing, even when I disagreed with them. I found that leading by example and doing well to be the BEST way to get people to follow ones lead.
REALLY-- you are equating your supposed breeding guidelines for the definitive line between good breeders and bad breeders. Well, there is a commercial facility in Missouri that may change your mind.
I have permanent brick imprints on my forehead. icon_devil
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sandy,

Why have you spoken about Sainthood ?

What exactly have I said that makes you feel that you can't accept where I am coming from ?

Raising children is not really the same as changing the views of the 'Bad guys'. Firstly, children learn form your examples and normally like to copy Mum and develop in her style.

The 'Bad guys' know what they should be doing but ignore, decline or refuse to acknowledge the need for change.
Those are the one's you need to be working on, not me ?

Regards Mark.

Karlin
25th October 2009, 07:20 PM
Sandy, there was much talk on both the UK and the US lists long before PDE that puppy sales were way down and in crisis -- more likely due to the economy. There was a discussion on the L-list at least once and also elsewhere and I know this was raised within the UK club at least 6 months before PDE was on. It is convenient now to claim a falloff was due to PDE but it had begun well before. But even so -- so what? BYBs always have a current reason why to buy from them (usually, price). If buyers are so undereducated to think they should buy from a BYB then surely it is the clubs' and collective breeders' job to educate, get better info on their (frankly, crappy and poorly organised) websites? For example, the national sites and many (sparse!) regional club sites are still using *frames* :sl*p: -- the worst possible approach to finding info for the visitor, getting onto Google and to help people get direct URLs. No wonder www.cavalierheath.org comes tops when people google health issues, not club websites. There's almost no helpful information or guidance for pet buyers on club sites, which generally look like someone's 17 year old geek son designed them for the most part. Get a proper designer to do those sites, folks!.

For my part: I've seen no fall off whatsoever in Ireland in demand for cavaliers and we got PDE twice -- from the BBC and then it ran again on Irish station TV3. I have no problem homing dogs of unknown breeding evn with a full briefing on health issues. I've never had a single person decline to take a rescue dog on the basis of learning of health issues. Maybe the clubs and more breeders need to take that approach -- being upfront and providing full information and background on health -- as a starting point?

And again -- the problem is the health of the breed, not PDE making more people aware of it! The basic breed health statistics remain shocking. I hardly know of a single cavalier that has lived beyond 11 -- I have owned and have friends who own large breeds that have long exceeded cavaliers in their lifespan.

As for the widespread influence of PDE -- as much as I would like to believe this is true, I still find it hard to find vets who are aware of SM or have read a single thing about it if they have heard of it, and many who dismiss it. My own excellent vets have, almost solely because of PDE, learned to be sensitive to it and spot possible symptoms and have, since PDE, referred many dogs to the vet school for positive diagnosis and care -- dogs that would have suffered years of being treated for allergies and nonexistent ear infections. That some dogs will suffer less, and that clubs and breeders are being pushed towards better breeding practice, is an obvious gain from the show.

WoodHaven
25th October 2009, 07:28 PM
Have you really always followed the rules? All your dogs are from dogs that were 2.5 with sire and dam that were 5 and heart clear --- ALL of them?

You are coming off as very sanctimonious.

One of the reasons I will NEVER preach, is that my first cavalier came from a dam that was 5 and heart clear-- the sire was only 18 months old.
He was 9 and heart clear last year-- but the 'protocol' wasn't followed for my girls birth. My girls dam will be 15 next month (God willing) and her sires granddam turned 16 last spring. Long lived dogs are on both sides of her pedigree.

Karlin
25th October 2009, 07:36 PM
Oops take that back -- the ackcsc.org website finally got rid of that old frames design and ckcsc.org is also now giving direct urls and finally works with more than just Internet Explorer! Still horrible web design though. :eek:

WoodHaven
25th October 2009, 07:43 PM
October, January and February are the slow months for puppy buyers here. I just got my fifth request for a puppy this month. Now, because I haven't had a litter her for almost two years, I've directed them to others (or accidentally erased their messages from my recorder).
I am not blaming the PDE program for a fall in puppy inquires, but when they use this as a reason to buy cheaper puppies -- it makes me nuts. I am not the breeder who got this distressing call.

If www.cavalierheath.org (http://www.cavalierheath.org/) was around when I got my first cavalier, I wouldn't have gotten one. I am not a masochist. Why would I want a breed of dog that is so rife with syndromes and disease. I'd already lost a brittney to autoimmune (dead at 3) and got a cocker with juvenile cateracts and a cocker with EVERYTHING under the sun including epilepsy (dead at 2.5).

WoodHaven
25th October 2009, 07:49 PM
Oops take that back -- the ackcsc.org website finally got rid of that old frames design and ckcsc.org is also now giving direct urls and finally works with more than just Internet Explorer! Still horrible web design though. :eek:

I don't use Internet Explorer and I've never had issues. My computer was set up with ideas from my b-i-l who is in computer security. He gets paid to break through companies computer security protocols. I have issues downloading certain things and have to shut parts of the security down.

The ACKCSC just got a new webserver. Maybe they are in the middle of change.

Clairelou
25th October 2009, 08:07 PM
My experience: 2004 my beautiful Rosie died in my arms of a heart attack, 10 months later my beautiful Sophie died in my arms, she had to be put to sleep due to MVD. Having owned cavaliers since the mid 80's I have met many Cavalier owners on our walks and word on the street is Cavalier health is in a mess! Yorkysue I personally think you got very lucky. FWIW I think PDE was a much needed kick up the backside to the dog breeding industry!

WoodHaven
25th October 2009, 08:17 PM
My experience: 2004 my beautiful Rosie died in my arms of a heart attack, 10 months later my beautiful Sophie died in my arms, she had to be put to sleep due to MVD. Having owned cavaliers since the mid 80's I have met many Cavalier owners on our walks and word on the street is Cavalier health is in a mess! Yorkysue I personally think you got very lucky. FWIW I think PDE was a much needed kick up the backside to the dog breeding industry!

You don't mention the age at which your dogs passed and I am sorry that you've had bad luck-- but my luck with cockers was bad (both were rescues) and my brittney was from hunting lines, not show lines. My first dog died in my arms of a heart attack-- she was almost 17.

IF and this is a big IF-- they would have shown the whole story, I might agree that the PDE was a much needed show. But it seemed like it was made for sensationalism, not realism. The national enquirer of news stories (in my opinion).

Word on the street?? I won't go there.

Murphy
25th October 2009, 08:24 PM
Margaret,
I have thought a great deal about where we are right now as regards health testing for SM.
We have made terrific advances in bringing some of the 'Top Breeders' - as you refer to them - onboard.

In the beginning, when very few people had even considered MRI scanning, it was necessary to convince breeders of its importance, by every possible means.
Here I must commend you and others who led from the front so to do.

But,things are different now. Every breeder knows full well that they must MRI scan their stock, of their own volition, sooner rather than later, otherwise the matter will be taken out of their hands.

There are now large numbers of breeders who have MRI scanned and it is a fact that many of the Top Breeders are refusing to accept an unscanned bitch for mating.

This is real progress - thanks largely to yourself and others.

So, IMO, this would seem to be a good time to regroup and consider what new approach could be made to convince the remaining breeders to get onboard.

Perhaps a greater degree of sensitivity is called for? Perhaps leading by example ?
Perhaps just sitting down and talking about how scary the whole thing is?
I have certainly found each of these methods to be effective at different times.

One thing is for sure, IMO, the time for breeder-bashing is over. It has outlived its usefulness and is simply outmoded.

If breeder-bashing' has not worked so far, to convince the faltering breeders, then perhaps they will remain unconvinced. One has to accept that as a fact of life.
As they say: 'You can't win 'em all'.

My real worry about this constant 'picking on' breeders is the effect it surely must have on Cavalier Pet owners.
It must be very hard to come to terms with some of the posts decrying cavalier breeding practices when you have lately become a proud owner and welcomed one into your family.

New owners must be 'on tenterhooks' watching and waiting for something to go wrong.
That is surely not fair.

While it is almost a certainty that every cavalier will go to its grave with one or more of the 'issues' commonly seen on an MRI scan , these same dogs will differ greatly in their individual response to these issues as well as to the symptoms which accompany the disease.

Of course, every pet owner should be aware that symptoms can arise at any time, but it is extremely unusual for baby puppies to demonstrate such symptoms, and I find it distressing to read frantic posts from new owners worried sick about some perfectly normal puppy behaviour.

That is not fair either.

Breeding is a hard road nowadays. We still have much to learn and mistakes still to make, so, give us some 'slack'; allow us to regroup as well as yourselves, and we will all get there in the end................ it would be nice if we travelled together.

With best wishes
Elspeth

WoodHaven
25th October 2009, 08:53 PM
Ethical....... Conforming to accepted standards of conduct.

The frequent use of a stud dog is certainly asking for trouble, as I found to my, and other breeders, cost.
Looking at the above definition it would seem it is not yet unethical.

In what way did anything I say promote puppy brokers?

The problem with that one definition of Ethical, is that it changes with the times. True ethical and moral behavior really transcends a group of peoples ideals. IF not, the buying and selling (raping) of humans was ethical (totally conforming to accepted standards).

I now co-own a boy I bred (champion boy)-- he has passed all his tests-- actually has OFA Excellent hips/excellent mri, good heart, good eyes. The co-owner asks how she should let him be used. I still say 'judicially'. He was last used on an MRI'd bitch with OFA excellent hips-- I can't wait to see how the genes play out. (both my boy and this bitch have littermates that have also had very good health certs including MRI's)-- so I am looking beyond linearly.

Tania
25th October 2009, 09:37 PM
I might agree that the PDE was a much needed show. But it seemed like it was made for sensationalism, not realism. The national enquirer of news stories (in my opinion).

Word on the street?? I won't go there.[/QUOTE]

I am only a pet owner, until 2.5 years ago I had never owned a dog let alone a Cavalier. We do not have children and we chose this breed purely because of the temperament and companionship we hoped they would give us.

I spent a long time researching this breed. I became aware of MVD and Eye problems. I bought two puppies from two completely different breeders. Later we found out one of the breeders didn't have such a great reputation but the other did! In our ignorance we thought providing they were KC registered that was some kind of guarantee they would be fine!

Molly started to yelp with pain at approximately 12-15 weeks. She also had Dysplasia and Knee problems. She became very lame in her front legs and behaved liked a very slow old dog.

When we watched PDE, I couldn't sleep for days, I thought we could never be this unlucky. Because of this programme, I had both Dogs scanned, Molly was diagnosed with sm and we were told she wouldn't make her 2nd birthday. Dougall was diagonosed with cm and we are still currently trying to deal with his health issues.
I changed the specialist to Clare Rusbridge who immediately treated Molly and her life has finally been given quality, for how long we don't know.

I contacted both breeders with a reasonable approach, I e mailed the Good Breeder with the approach "Dougall is lovely and is everything you said he would be". I then asked her if she would mind giving me some information about his parents regarding health issues. When I contacted the second breeder I had already learned about her and my approach wasn't as good. I have not had a response from either breeder!

A large number Cavalier owners I have met have told me their dogs are affected, including a lady who had 3 and all of them were affected. Some cavalier owners have health issues and are still not aware of sm.

I don't pretend to understand everything that is going on, I am glad PDE was shown, if it hadn't, Molly would not be here now. I feel angry that these lovely dogs have been subject to such abuse. We are too scared to leave these poor litlle souls for even a night, just in case something goes wrong.
So the idea PDE is sensationalism and not realism is total bunkem!

WoodHaven
25th October 2009, 10:00 PM
So the idea PDE is sensationalism and not realism is total bunkem!
*******************************************
I am sorry that you were caught off guard with SM. It has been around (and discussed) for as long as I've had cavaliers-- which is going on 10 years. It is one of the first things-- after MVD and before shedding that I talk to people looking for cavaliers.

My point was, it was not a balanced show. Even some of the people interviewed were shocked at what was edited out of the interview.

I hate when people state they are only pet owners-- truly, I am a pet owner with more bills--/showing expenses/health testing/OFA reporting, than the 'average pet owner'. I attend seminars, both health and breeding to better the breed. I am a 'pet owner' whose vet asks her opinion on the way her dogs are treated. I am a 'pet owner' that doesn't hesitate to KNOW or call experts to handle her dogs health issues. I consider good breeders to be "proactive pet owners''.

Tania
25th October 2009, 10:21 PM
With respect, SM and Syringomyelia is not going to register to a layman who is simply looking for a pet dog. Heart and eye is obvious and will ring alarm bells, maybe I am not very bright and I don't speak the lingo but then that will also apply to thousands of other Cavalier owners that have been caught out and shocked for the first time.

Karen and Ruby
25th October 2009, 11:05 PM
I have to agree with Tania here. Syringomyelia isnt something that registers with people
"oh, the brain thing?" is what I hear more often than not or "oh whats that then?" is the other!!

Even cavalier owners we some across still havent heard of it which is more worrying.
I think the average person looking for a pup on the quick couldnt care less where they come from, they just want a pup now!
I do think though that the government need to step in where dog ownership and breeding is concerned, not just for the sake of Cavvies but for all dogs. Its too easy to 1) get a dog and 2) get rid of it
Something needs to change with the laws around dog ownership and care and maybe then we could stamp out PF's and BYBs for good.
I think thats the only way we stand half a chance.
I also havent met a cavvie owner who has had a dog over the age of 10 and for a small breed this is a terrible life expectancy and its something we have become too used to. I often think to myself that id be pleased if my dogs live to 7 or 8!
Now thats a sad story:(

Karen

WoodHaven
25th October 2009, 11:41 PM
A cavalier isn't easy to get here. Hence the byb are selling them for 1000-1500.00 USD
About 15%-20% of all dogs are purchased from show breeders. The rest are byb and commercial breeders.

When you talk about cavaliers dying early or suffering from MVD--I haven't experienced that. (knock wood)
I cried when I heard my boys sire died early-- by early I mean just before his 12th birthday.

Karen and Ruby
25th October 2009, 11:45 PM
A cavalier isn't easy to get here. Hence the byb are selling them for 1000-1500.00 USD
About 15%-20% of all dogs are purchased from show breeders. The rest are byb and commercial breeders. QUOTE


Sandy
They're numerous in the UK- the pet shop opposite me has 5 cav pups for sale at the momment for £350 each.
I get a lump in my throat every time I have to walk place that place- sickening really!

Karen:swear:

WoodHaven
25th October 2009, 11:56 PM
A cavalier isn't easy to get here. Hence the byb are selling them for 1000-1500.00 USD
About 15%-20% of all dogs are purchased from show breeders. The rest are byb and commercial breeders. QUOTE


Sandy
They're numerous in the UK- the pet shop opposite me has 5 cav pups for sale at the momment for £350 each.
I get a lump in my throat every time I have to walk place that place- sickening really!

Karen:swear:

The petland (grimace) near us has cavaliers every once in a while. Ten years ago they were selling them for 1995.00USD. It is where I saw and held my first -- I ran home and did hours of research. I get people calling me when they see them and they demand that I go rescue the cavalier in the petstore. It is very hard to convince some people to LEAVE it alone. That buying that pup will make the store buy another to replace it.

WoodHaven
26th October 2009, 01:51 AM
This is what "only a pet owner" can do::

http://vet.osu.edu/assets/pdf/hospital/companionAnimals/cavalierKingCharlesSpaniel.pdf

Dr. Cole is an amazing doctor and cavalier lover. We are privileged to have her on our side.

Oreo
26th October 2009, 02:51 AM
From the link posted:

"When selecting a Cavalier, as with any purebred dog, potential owners should visit a reputable breeder and check the medical history of several previous generations.”

What if the reputable breeders that you have contact with, and that show their dogs, and health test, only sometimes follow protocol, and because you live in North America they tell you MRIs are too expensive?

What if you find a breeder who shows and socializes the puppies, and health tests, and sometimes follows protocol, but you also know they have put a fairly recent litter, or maybe two or three, on the ground with something like a sire aged just barely two, a grandsire just three, a great grandsire just four and a great-great grandsire just five?

Too often, looking at breeders, this is what I find, still even, and I tell you it is leaving me wondering about the future of this breed and hoping that more breeders are going to start leading by example every time they breed.

And I don't want to just hope. I know that as a pet owner looking for a Cavalier I have had many "reputable" breeders avoid my questions about MRIs and about protocol. I know that even four years ago it was almost impossible to find open information about how serious a problem SM was in this breed on club websites. That needs to change.

I am glad for advocates getting the word out and openly questionning, like Carol Fowler and Bolshie Bet, and breeders like Mark Marshall and Margaret Carter and I'm sure some others who are willing to admit they would do things differently now that they know more, or that they are just beginning, but that they are trying to now do their best to let pet owners know about MVD and SM and about what questions to ask. I am glad for the pressure they are applying.

I am glad for Rod's Cavalier Health website and PDE as they have reached farther than internet lists ever could, and farther, it seems, than clubs wanted them to. I just don't understand why breeders who have Cavaliers best interests at heart would not want more pet owners to know.

Bet
26th October 2009, 10:53 AM
I had made up my mind I was not going to send any-more Posts till the Second of November,next Monday,when the APGAW Report is to be given . but I just had to thank Karlin and Margaret for what they have just Posted.

Also Thanks Orea ,for your comments to me, it sure has been ,as we say in Scotland, A SAIR FECHT, or translated ,a sore struggle,for the past 20 years trying to get across to most Cavalier Breeders about the MVD Problem in our Lovely Breed.

To Sandy ,I noted with interest you have had I think it was 10 years been involved with Cavaliers, why don't you listen to us Cavalier Pet Owners, who have had Cavaliers for 30-40 years, and been writing to Cavalier Committees etc, to get them to take notice of the MVD Problem.

I wish I could give the names of Cavalier Champions, who have died at a young age from Heart Trouble, and were known to have a Heart Condition ,but were still being used for Breeding, is this why I have to take so many offensive Remarks, ,are those Cavalier Breeders afraid I will spill the beans, but those Cavaliers' names along with others that I have discovered,
have all been sent to Researchers into the MVD problem in Britain and Abroad,for them to try and find out if there is a Link in some Lines .

To MURPHY ,IT WAS EVER THUS ,in the Health Problems of our Breed, will it ever change,
another Scot's Phrase I HAE MY DOOTS!!

I doubt it.

WoodHaven
26th October 2009, 12:32 PM
I had made up my mind I was not going to send any-more Posts till the Second of November,next Monday,when the APGAW Report is to be given . but I just had to thank Karlin and Margaret for what they have just Posted.

Also Thanks Orea ,for your comments to me, it sure has been ,as we say in Scotland, A SAIR FECHT, or translated ,a sore struggle,for the past 20 years trying to get across to most Cavalier Breeders about the MVD Problem in our Lovely Breed.

To Sandy ,I noted with interest you have had I think it was 10 years been involved with Cavaliers, why don't you listen to us Cavalier Pet Owners, who have had Cavaliers for 30-40 years, and been writing to Cavalier Committees etc, to get them to take notice of the MVD Problem.


I wish I could give the names of Cavalier Champions, who have died at a young age from Heart Trouble, and were known to have a Heart Condition ,but were still being used for Breeding, is this why I have to take so many offensive Remarks, ,are those Cavalier Breeders afraid I will spill the beans, but those Cavaliers' names along with others that I have discovered,
have all been sent to Researchers into the MVD problem in Britain and Abroad,for them to try and find out if there is a Link in some Lines .

To MURPHY ,IT WAS EVER THUS ,in the Health Problems of our Breed, will it ever change,
another Scot's Phrase I HAE MY DOOTS!!

I doubt it.

I don't listen to all pet owners-- BUT,I am a pet owner. IF I followed the last pet owner advice-- I'd sell more puppies for cheaper prices. That was the last kernel of brilliance from a pet owner. Or the pet owner from month ago that wanted me to breed my cavaliers with bishon to make them healthier. Yes, that is why I don't listen to pet owners.

The only people I know that owned cavalier 40 years ago (most of my life) were breeders.

Bet, you said you don't own a cavalier now. I owned a GSP from age 2-18-- that doesn't make me a hunting expert now.

I too would LOVE to know the names of these cavaliers that HAD MVD heart issue and was still used. What there ages were etc... You keep saying it happened, but you fall short of saying there were any to be named.

APGAW-- political animal welfarists-- Hey in a few years the HSUS will be right up there.

WoodHaven
26th October 2009, 12:46 PM
From the link posted:

"When selecting a Cavalier, as with any purebred dog, potential owners should visit a reputable breeder and check the medical history of several previous generations.”

What if the reputable breeders that you have contact with, and that show their dogs, and health test, only sometimes follow protocol, and because you live in North America they tell you MRIs are too expensive?

What if you find a breeder who shows and socializes the puppies, and health tests, and sometimes follows protocol, but you also know they have put a fairly recent litter, or maybe two or three, on the ground with something like a sire aged just barely two, a grandsire just three, a great grandsire just four and a great-great grandsire just five?

Too often, looking at breeders, this is what I find, still even, and I tell you it is leaving me wondering about the future of this breed and hoping that more breeders are going to start leading by example every time they breed.

And I don't want to just hope. I know that as a pet owner looking for a Cavalier I have had many "reputable" breeders avoid my questions about MRIs and about protocol. I know that even four years ago it was almost impossible to find open information about how serious a problem SM was in this breed on club websites. That needs to change.

I am glad for advocates getting the word out and openly questionning, like Carol Fowler and Bolshie Bet, and breeders like Mark Marshall and Margaret Carter and I'm sure some others who are willing to admit they would do things differently now that they know more, or that they are just beginning, but that they are trying to now do their best to let pet owners know about MVD and SM and about what questions to ask. I am glad for the pressure they are applying.

I am glad for Rod's Cavalier Health website and PDE as they have reached farther than internet lists ever could, and farther, it seems, than clubs wanted them to. I just don't understand why breeders who have Cavaliers best interests at heart would not want more pet owners to know.

Oreo-- MRI's in the USA are very expensive. I've paid as little as about 1400USD and as much as 2400USD and this was 3-4 years ago. Now add to that, that if done before 30 months of age, it should be done again, and possibly again after 6.

I agree that you (as a buyer) should ask questions-- if you don't like the answers, walk away. I think I put more time and effort investigating my last car than people want to do with buying a dog, that will be a bigger part of their day to day lives.

WHO said they didn't want pet owners to know about these debilitating diseases?

Bet
26th October 2009, 01:48 PM
Sandy,

I have no intention of making around the 400 Cavalier Pedigrees of Cavaliers who died from Heart Trouble,that I have collected,known, they are with the Researchers at Universities , Researching the Heart Problem in our Breed

Why don't you do the same..

Bet
26th October 2009, 02:07 PM
Sandy,

Forgot to mention how to get pedigrees of Cavaliers dying from Heart Trouble ,to do what I did, Put adverts in Pet Magazines, or any other means, asking Cavalier Pet Owners to contact me if their Cavalier had died from Heart Trouble ,and to send me the Cavalier's pedigree.

Talk with Cavalier Breeders who are willing to pass on information about this.Then when you have all this information gathered to-gether,give it to Researchers ,to help in their Heart Research into the Problem in Cavaliers.

Sandy ,best of luck in your enterprise.

WoodHaven
26th October 2009, 02:22 PM
Sandy,

I have no intention of making around the 400 Cavalier Pedigrees of Cavaliers who died from Heart Trouble,that I have collected,known, they are with the Researchers at Universities , Researching the Heart Problem in our Breed

Why don't you do the same..

I don't have the first hand knowledge you keep speaking of. I don't know which dog got a murmur when. My crystal ball and my magic eight ball are giving me different answers. YOU are the one that seems to be speaking from direct knowledge.

Bet
26th October 2009, 06:02 PM
I think this comment can be included on this Thread,.I sure am confused.

What is happening to the Cavalier Breed today, just saw some Photos on another Cavalier Site.

I have mentioned about to-day's Cavaliers having Smaller Heads, but now they seem to have Longer Backs, Shorter Legs, and their Back Ends seem to be Sloping downwards like German Shepherds.

Is this the type of Cavalier that is catching the Judges Eye for winning in the Show Ring.

Could it be possible that this Minaturizing of the Cavalier Breed is involved with their SM Problem.

Take a look at Ch Daywell Roger, the Pargeter Cavaliers, Maxholt's ,Crisdig's,Kindrum's ,and Ch Homaranne Caption. None of them looked in the least like the Cavaliers that are being Bred to-day.

WoodHaven
26th October 2009, 06:55 PM
Karlin has stated that many of the cavaliers winning seem to be over the breed standard(and I agree)-- and Bet you are worried about the miniaturization of the breed.

I just went to a cavalier specialty earlier in the month-- none of them matched your description: Bet and I quote
"I have mentioned about to-day's Cavaliers having Smaller Heads, but now they seem to have Longer Backs, Shorter Legs, and their Back Ends seem to be Sloping downwards like German Shepherds. "

Yorkysue
26th October 2009, 07:17 PM
I think this comment can be included on this Thread,.I sure am confused.

What is happening to the Cavalier Breed today, just saw some Photos on another Cavalier Site.

I have mentioned about to-day's Cavaliers having Smaller Heads, but now they seem to have Longer Backs, Shorter Legs, and their Back Ends seem to be Sloping downwards like German Shepherds.

Is this the type of Cavalier that is catching the Judges Eye for winning in the Show Ring.

Could it be possible that this Minaturizing of the Cavalier Breed is involved with their SM Problem.

Take a look at Ch Daywell Roger, the Pargeter Cavaliers, Maxholt's ,Crisdig's,Kindrum's ,and Ch Homaranne Caption. None of them looked in the least like the Cavaliers that are being Bred to-day.

Please can you tell us what the other Cavalier site is that you saw these photo's on so that others that are interested in breed type can judge the pictures for themselves. Otherwise we have only your word to go on - as a pet owner.

Thank you

sins
26th October 2009, 07:26 PM
This I think surfaces on a regular basis.
Sorry some of the links don't work.

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showpost.php?p=281437&postcount=64

Sins

sins
26th October 2009, 07:49 PM
Is that what you were referring to Bet?

http://www.roycroftinformationcenter.com/Cavalier%20Infosite/Cavalier%20InfoCenter%20Health%20SM%20MRI%20to%20S kull%20Comps.html
Sins

Karlin
26th October 2009, 08:34 PM
It isn't actually just Bet saying this about cavalier heads: many breeders are saying this, it has been a point of interest for several researchers, and there is strong evidence that many breeds have had their skulls hugely reshaped in the space of just a few decades. PDE showed some of these and there are images from an academic collections of canine skulls online as well -- I will look for the link.

I have a 1970s book on cavaliers -- the one Laura takes some of this images from -- and the difference in heads is startling in just 30-40 years. The dogs of the 70s had longer muzzles, typically, larger heads and skulls, less compression at the front and back of the head. As Laura notes, many of the dogs pictured are either champions of the time or are from the leading kennels of the time in the UK and US. You'd hardly recognise some of them as cavaliers any longer -- I'd think they were crosses or really poorly bred BYB dogs if they came into rescue yet these dogs exactly fit the same breed standard used by breeders and judges now.

I'm glad Laura Lang has pulled all those images together -- she had them for a long time on a couple of different pages and this makes it far easier to see how deformed some of the skull shapes appear, with little space at the back for the cerebellum; and to see the comparison between 70s and current dogs.

Karlin
26th October 2009, 09:29 PM
This is the university with the dog skull collections (the largest in the world I believe) but can't find the page that shows the change in shape of staffies and St Bernards. :crash:

http://www-nmbe.unibe.ch/

Yorkysue
26th October 2009, 09:31 PM
The Cavalier Site that Bet mentions must be a different one to the links given (head photo's only) as as Bet says

".Cavaliers .... now they seem to have longer backs, Shorter legs, and backends seem to be sloping like German Shepherds"

This is the site I would like Bet to name so I can look at that also. Thanks.

tara
26th October 2009, 10:24 PM
Bet -- when you address Sandy, you are addressing one of a very few breeders in this country with a breeding practice which regularly includes MRI'd dogs.

Just an FYI. You're shooting the messenger of your desires when you go after Sandy.

Karen and Ruby
26th October 2009, 10:52 PM
The Cavalier Site that Bet mentions must be a different one to the links given (head photo's only) as as Bet says

".Cavaliers .... now they seem to have longer backs, Shorter legs, and backends seem to be sloping like German Shepherds"

This is the site I would like Bet to name so I can look at that also. Thanks.

Just look at the Crufts photos from this year- I was there and was horrified at some of the dogs I was looking at- one of the winners of a certain class had bowed legs!!

WoodHaven
26th October 2009, 11:05 PM
Just look at the Crufts photos from this year- I was there and was horrified at some of the dogs I was looking at- one of the winners of a certain class had bowed legs!!

A cavalier with bowed legs?? whoa

Karen and Ruby
26th October 2009, 11:12 PM
Sandy

Im being totally honest. I was truley shocked as having Ruby im used to her 'old' style look- very flat head and long muzzle and she is also quite a big cav.
Im not used to the show look and was mortified, they just didnt look right and I stood there for a few hours watching a few of the classes before I went and watched a friend in the Obedience finals
One of the Blenheims that won its class looked bow legged and its head was as domed as an American cocker, it also had a very squished up face- looked more like an king charles (and yes I do know the diff). Even my partner who doesnt know alot about dogs mentioned that it looked wrong.
Needless to say I left the area and went and watched the other dogs at work!!

WoodHaven
26th October 2009, 11:31 PM
Sandy

Im being totally honest. I was truley shocked as having Ruby im used to her 'old' style look- very flat head and long muzzle and she is also quite a big cav.
Im not used to the show look and was mortified, they just didnt look right and I stood there for a few hours watching a few of the classes before I went and watched a friend in the Obedience finals
One of the Blenheims that won its class looked bow legged and its head was as domed as an American cocker, it also had a very squished up face- looked more like an king charles (and yes I do know the diff). Even my partner who doesnt know alot about dogs mentioned that it looked wrong.
Needless to say I left the area and went and watched the other dogs at work!!

I wasn't doubting you -- I was hoping you were going to say it was a bulldog.
My dog lost her class (6 years ago and it still haunts me) to a cowhocked bitch that's feet literally pointed east and west( front and back feet). The second in the class was fully groomed ringside-- clippers, chalk and all.

Karen and Ruby
26th October 2009, 11:35 PM
I wasn't doubting you -- I was hoping you were going to say it was a bulldog.
My dog lost her class (6 years ago and it still haunts me) to a cowhocked bitch that's feet literally pointed east and west( front and back feet). The second in the class was fully groomed ringside-- clippers, chalk and all.

Oh no I know! I was just telling the whole story thats all :rolleyes:

That is shocking- it does make me wonder who qualifies some of these judges to make these desisons, there seem to be a few out there that are single minded and blinkered!

Margaret C
27th October 2009, 12:25 AM
WHO said they didn't want pet owners to know about these debilitating diseases?

Well, I would agree with that statement.

I worked for 6 years to get breeders to realise that SM was a problem in cavaliers. I was accused by other health representatives of 'ruining the breed'

I saw a handful of foresighted breeders scanning, and losing heart because there were not enough stud dogs with good results they could use.

I experienced breed club committee members sabotaging the efforts to research the problem.

I saw breeders that had told me about their dogs with symptoms, stand up at seminars and say they had never seen it, never bred it.

I saw breeders putting their own interest first, and breed club officials put the interests of the breeders, and the clubs, before that of the dogs.

I listened to breeders say "how will we sell our puppies"

Even now pet buyers in the UK are being met with denials that SM is a problem in cavaliers.
From what I hear the denial is even worse among many breeders in other countries.

Sandy I know that you were one of the few breeders that scanned your dogs at great expense and effort in the USA and I admire you for it, but unfortunately, from what I read on the other cavalier lists, I don't think you are typical of the top show breeders in your country.

Margaret C
27th October 2009, 01:06 AM
Dear Elspeth,

Thank you for your post. Wise words from you as usual, but I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree over some things.



But,things are different now. Every breeder knows full well that they must MRI scan their stock, of their own volition, sooner rather than later, otherwise the matter will be taken out of their hands.

I think we have already reached the stage where that will happen.
It will perhaps prevent clever & experienced breeders planning matings based on their knowledge of lines, but will ensure that health has to be factored in by those that had not considered it a priority before.



it is a fact that many of the Top Breeders are refusing to accept an unscanned bitch for mating..

Many of the top breeders? I could believe that is possible of one or two, but nothing I have heard suggests that it is yet common practice.




So, IMO, this would seem to be a good time to regroup and consider what new approach could be made to convince the remaining breeders to get onboard...

Unfortunately I have become convinced that only outside scrutiny, and the knowledge that outrageous disregard of codes of best practice will no longer remain unremarked, will ensure that the breeding guidelines are not 'fudged'



My real worry about this constant 'picking on' breeders is the effect it surely must have on Cavalier Pet owners.
It must be very hard to come to terms with some of the posts decrying cavalier breeding practices when you have lately become a proud owner and welcomed one into your family.

New owners must be 'on tenterhooks' watching and waiting for something to go wrong.
That is surely not fair...

That is true, but I believe better a worried owner than a suffering dog.



Of course, every pet owner should be aware that symptoms can arise at any time, but it is extremely unusual for baby puppies to demonstrate such symptoms, and I find it distressing to read frantic posts from new owners worried sick about some perfectly normal puppy behaviour.

That is not fair either.

Unfortunately it is not that unusual for puppies to demonstrate SM symptoms

Karlin
27th October 2009, 01:49 AM
I haven't seen many frantic posts on SM from panicky new puppy owners, either here or on any of the other predominantly pet-owner boards or lists. There are occasional worried posts here, and these almost always do relate to an issue that does need to be checked by a vet. So the worried owner is generally right that they need to be worried, and need to get medical advice, but my own advice over and over is that there are many things that need to be eliminated first before a vet would refer to a neurologist, and many more likely reasons for some of the signs seen than SM, especially in a young pup.

More often, people post here saying they have SM as a background concern any time they see their dog scratching. But that is the reality in the breed -- that one must watch for possible signs just as one watches for signs of heart problems. There would be more frantic posts here about housetraining accidents than fears about SM.

The larger problem remains that most of the time, owners of dogs with potential symptoms are told the dog almost certainly has a disk or allergy problem and several months or years of pain pass before the dog is correctly diagnosed. This board is full of owners whose concerns were dismissed by their vets and their breeders until their dog reached such a clear point of pain that they sought a specialist. This board is also full of people who note the only reason they learned about this condition was either PDE or information posted here. That indicates the general lack of awareness amongst pet owners and vets still, and an unwillingness amongst most breeders to discuss this as a health issue with pet buyers (unlike MVD). One breeder health site still claims the vast majority of cavaliers are unlikely to ever get SM -- yet once again I note that breeders themselves have posted to Cavalier Chat that the neurologists doing club-supported scanning days are consistently stating about 50% of these younger breeding age dogs *have syrinxes*.

Bet
27th October 2009, 09:47 AM
Sins,

look at www.cavaliers.co.uk

There is an Australian Cavalier Pictured on the Breed notes this week, and you will see what I am trying to explain.

Dr C Rusbridge ,has also mentioned about the Minaturizing of Cavaliers.

If this is what the Cavalier Breeders want now because there is the chance of this type winning in the the Show Ring, and the bottom line is, this is where the money will come from, Stud Fees, and the Breeding Bitches, how will most of the Cavalier Breeders ever change their attitude.

Sadly I was told this by a Cavalier Breeder, this is where the COFFEE is!!!

Can I also mention that there is reports of many Cavaliers being Heart Tested in the past fortnight at Cavalier Shows on the Cavalier Chat Forum, this is the big BUT,and the $64,000 question ,if some of those Cavaliers are young, will the Breeders wait and not Breed from those Cavaliers till they are 2.5 years of age,and also find out what about the Health Status of their Grand-Parents.

As the Researchers into the MVD Problem, this is the only chance the Cavalier Breed has of having any Future.

Ruth
27th October 2009, 10:59 AM
Well Bet, whilst I have been concerned at seeing a few long backed short legged dogs cropping up, this chap certainly is not one of them. He is exquisite imo and has the most wonderful turn of stifle which is perhaps giving you (photographically) the impression you are getting.

Bet
27th October 2009, 11:06 AM
I have just noticed on Cavalier Chat the owner of the Cavalier I mentioned looking different from what Cavaliers looked like years ago ,demanding an apology,

An apology for what, saying that Cavaliers don't look like the Pargeters, Crisdigs, Kindrums ,Maxholts .

Would any Cavalier Breeder tell me that To-day's Cavaliers are the same as those Cavaliers I have mentioned.

Since I have never heard of the owner of the Cavalier in question, I will say sorry, but I do hope I will get a reply from Cavalier Breeders of to-day's Cavaliers saying that they are exactly the same as they were 30-40 years ago.
.
If there are no answers to this Post,I will take it that the Cavalier Breeders agree that Cavaliers of to-day are different to those of the time I have mentioned.

sins
27th October 2009, 11:07 AM
I agree to a certain extent Bet, some cavaliers are starting to evolve into real "toys" and others still firmly retain all their spaniel characteristics.You could hand the CKCS club book of champions to 20 random people and ask them to pick the cavalier that appeals to them the most. My inexperienced finger would land on Tameline Northern Dancer...others might say something totally different.The appearance of the breed has changed over the decades but surely there's no real exaggeration,just a more refined type of cavalier??
Yes head shapes seem to have changed.I had disregarded the idea that head shape influenced the development of CM/SM but that link may have prompted me to think again so I suppose it's reasonable to keep an open mind.Again it's down to the researchers to explore the relevance.
I looked at the results of Dr Darke's early MVD survey Bet and it painted a poor picture.You're right! 30% of dogs aged 2-4 and 50% of dogs aged 5-6.
However I'm not convinced that things are that bad now.There have been hundreds of cavaliers with a broad range of ages tested over the last year or so on Club days.Surely these are now the relevant samples that people should be looking at.These are the current crop of cavaliers bred by people who show and are mainly club members.Hopefully the statistics will show a significant improvement.
As more and more people avail of the MVD testing at shows,it provides a platform to move forward from and I think Bet give it two or three years and give breeders a chance to make the system work for them.
maybe it's time to take some of the pressure off people? If you keep flogging the good horse along with the idle one, maybe it'll simply lose the will to work?
Sins

Yorkysue
27th October 2009, 11:18 AM
Bet

I must say that the Australian dog you pointed out is the most beautiful tricolour, Even to my untrained eye he isn't long in the back, short in the legs, or sloping at his back end. He puts my old boy to shame. (LOL) And how can you say that heads are getting smaller? How big a head do you want on this dog? He's gorgeous. :) :)

Bet
27th October 2009, 12:15 PM
I will reiterate again, I was ,in my opinion mentioning how the Cavalier in question, was to me like other Cavaliers of to -day ,not like the ones of 30,years ago.

Our Cavaliers looked like Cavaliers , with a Doggy look about them ,even although they Bitches, In my opinion the Cavalier Dogs just don't look like Dogs , many look like Cavalier Bitches.

Bet
27th October 2009, 12:32 PM
Should have said,at least I have got Cavalier Breeders talking about the Type of To-days' Cavaliers, has it changed from 20-30 years ago.

So all the Remarks about me will be well worth while,if this Topic will be being discussed.

chloe92us
27th October 2009, 01:14 PM
There's no question that show dogs of today look different than dogs of yesterday. I think it has more to do with the preference of judges. We still have lots of Cavaliers who look like the dogs of yesterday; but they are considered "poor breds". I have always had a problem with Cavaliers being considered a "toy" breed. IMO, they should be in the non-sporting class.

Ruth
27th October 2009, 01:44 PM
What is happening to the Cavalier Breed today, just saw some Photos on another Cavalier Site.

I have mentioned about to-day's Cavaliers having Smaller Heads, but now they seem to have Longer Backs, Shorter Legs, and their Back Ends seem to be Sloping downwards like German Shepherds.

Is this the type of Cavalier that is catching the Judges Eye for winning in the Show Ring.



This is part of your post that I was answering Bet as I assumed that is what you were referring to.

WoodHaven
27th October 2009, 04:51 PM
I will reiterate again, I was ,in my opinion mentioning how the Cavalier in question, was to me like other Cavaliers of to -day ,not like the ones of 30,years ago.

Our Cavaliers looked like Cavaliers , with a Doggy look about them ,even although they Bitches, In my opinion the Cavalier Dogs just don't look like Dogs , many look like Cavalier Bitches.

You are saying that dogs today look different that dogs of 30 years ago-- You are saying over the course of 10 generations, that things have changed? Look back over human development over the course of 10 generations (that is about 200 years) -- even humans evolve in looks, size due to genes, nutrition, advances in medicine etc....
All animals evolve -- I wouldn't say that the pictures of spaniel type dogs in the famous pictures were any less miniaturized than todays cavalier spaniel.
I was just at a cavalier specialty-- I didn't have any problem telling the bitches from the dogs.

RodRussell
27th October 2009, 05:55 PM
There's no question that show dogs of today look different than dogs of yesterday. I think it has more to do with the preference of judges. We still have lots of Cavaliers who look like the dogs of yesterday; but they are considered "poor breds".

I can think of three major reasons for the "evolution" of "the look". They all start with the letters A, K, and C.

I think in large part, at least in the USA, the problem is that there is a higher percentage of ignorant and intellectually lazy judges. Until 1996, in the USA nearly all judges of Cavaliers were or had been Cavalier breeders. Since then, most Cavalier judges had never even seen a Cavalier prior to 1995, and most also are not even Cavalier fanciers, much less actual breeders.

This is due to AKC recognition of the breed in 1995. In 1996, almost instantly, a horde of AKC toy group judges, who had never seen Cavaliers before their very brief judges' seminar on the breed, began to judge Cavaliers in the AKC conformation rings around the country. A lot of them either did not know the breed standard or chose to ignore it. These judges had been used to trimmed and heavily combed coats, short-haired paws, neated up ears, etc. The Cavalier breed standard must have seemed full of typographical errors to these AKC judges.

And then, with AKC recognition came the professional handlers. There were no professional handlers of Cavaliers prior to AKC recognition. These people, who handle several breeds, began the trimming, the kneeling while in the ring, the shoving and tripping of competitors, and the dirty tricks to hide faults.

Finally, came the AKC-only breeders of other breeds, who likewise had never seen a Cavalier prior to 1995 or 1996, who decided to switch to breeding the new money-breed.

These three groups -- AKC judges, AKC's professional handlers, and AKC-only breeders -- brought with them their ignorance about the breed and their disbelief in the breed standard. They have changed "the look" radically.

Just another reason why AKC recognition of the CKCS is the worst thing ever to happen to the breed in the USA. (And this goes without mentioning the AKC's ignorance about early-onset MVD and its parent club's decision to keep the MVD breeding protocol a secret from AKC breeders.)

RodRussell
27th October 2009, 05:58 PM
You are saying that dogs today look different that dogs of 30 years ago-- You are saying over the course of 10 generations, that things have changed? Look back over human development over the course of 10 generations (that is about 200 years) -- even humans evolve in looks, size due to genes, nutrition, advances in medicine etc....

If breeders and judges had tried to follow the breed standard, which has barely changed in 30 years, there would not be as much change as their has been. There is a big difference between humans and purebreds, and it is the breed standards.

RodRussell
27th October 2009, 06:05 PM
As more and more people avail of the MVD testing at shows,it provides a platform to move forward from and I think Bet give it two or three years and give breeders a chance to make the system work for them.
maybe it's time to take some of the pressure off people? If you keep flogging the good horse along with the idle one, maybe it'll simply lose the will to work?
Sins

Testing for heart murmurs alone is a waste of time. There may be some incremental improvement, but until these breeders start following the MVD breeding protocol, they deserve to be "flogged".

And, since AKC recognition of the breed in 1995, most new Cavalier breeders in the USA don't even know about the seriousness of early-onset mitral valve disease in the CKCS. So they don't test for it at all.

Karen and Ruby
27th October 2009, 06:09 PM
Boy oh boy these poor babies are in trouble :(

RodRussell
27th October 2009, 06:12 PM
The only people I know that owned cavalier 40 years ago (most of my life) were breeders.

My family has owned Cavaliers for the past 40 years. And, we've never bred them.

RodRussell
27th October 2009, 06:38 PM
WHO said they didn't want pet owners to know about these debilitating diseases?

The ACKCSC refuses to publish the MVD breeding protocol, which was designed to eliminate early-onset MVD in as few as three generations. Most all Cavalier breeders in the USA now are AKC-only breeders, and their primary traditional source of information about health issues is from the parent club. The obvious conclusion is that this breed's AKC parent club doesn't want pet owners and breeders to know about the MVD breeding protocol.

Here is the entirety of what the ACKCSC website has to say about MVD:

"Mitral valve disease (MVD) is a degenerative condition that affects the mitral valve of the heart. Inevitably, it results in a compromise of the circulation and heart enlargement. This can lead to heart failure and death. It is important that your Cavalier be checked annually by your veterinarian for any heart murmur that could mean the valve is being compromised. If a murmur is diagnosed, do not panic! MVD can progress rapidly, but also very slowly. There are medications to help the condition and these are often very effective and can afford months or even years of a good quality of life. As an owner, you need to be aware of any symptoms that might indicate a problem—exercise intolerance, coughing, weakness, or undue fatigue. Test Test Test" (http://www.ackcsc.org/health/hearts.html )

To say the least, the foregoing is a pathetic dearth of useful information.

Compare this to the discussion about MVD on the CKCSC,USA website: http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/ckcsc_inc.nsf/founded-1954/heart.html which amounts to two very informative printed pages. Or to http://cavalierhealth.org, where you can get the equivalent of about 40 printed pages of information about MVD in Cavaliers.

WoodHaven
27th October 2009, 06:38 PM
If breeders and judges had tried to follow the breed standard, which has barely changed in 30 years, there would not be as much change as their has been. There is a big difference between humans and purebreds, and it is the breed standards.

Nuances change. Todays breeders tend to dislike any white in the eye-- this is a nuance-- not a breed standard change. Todays breeders tend to not like ticking, freckling-- that is a large change from the early cavaliers. AGAIN, not a change in the breed standard.

I've never really thought about 'measuring' my dogs muzzle until today. I feel like an idiot for not knowing exactly where to start and where to finish the measuring.

Please, can you state a specific change?

My dogs' profiles look a lot like Kindrum Mint Julip-- but it is so hard to tell by pictures, where just being off a few degrees makes things look "odd".

WoodHaven
27th October 2009, 06:44 PM
The ACKCSC refuses to publish the MVD breeding protocol, which was designed to eliminate early-onset MVD in as few as three generations. Most all Cavalier breeders in the USA now are AKC-only breeders, and their primary traditional source of information about health issues is from the parent club. The obvious conclusion is that this breed's AKC parent club doesn't want pet owners and breeders to know about the MVD breeding protocol.

Here is the entirety of what the ACKCSC website has to say about MVD:

"Mitral valve disease (MVD) is a degenerative condition that affects the mitral valve of the heart. Inevitably, it results in a compromise of the circulation and heart enlargement. This can lead to heart failure and death. It is important that your Cavalier be checked annually by your veterinarian for any heart murmur that could mean the valve is being compromised. If a murmur is diagnosed, do not panic! MVD can progress rapidly, but also very slowly. There are medications to help the condition and these are often very effective and can afford months or even years of a good quality of life. As an owner, you need to be aware of any symptoms that might indicate a problem—exercise intolerance, coughing, weakness, or undue fatigue. Test Test Test" (http://www.ackcsc.org/health/hearts.html )

To say the least, the foregoing is a pathetic dearth of useful information.

Compare this to the discussion about MVD on the CKCSC,USA website: http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/ckcsc_inc.nsf/founded-1954/heart.html which amounts to two very informative printed pages. Or to http://cavalierhealth.org, where you can get the equivalent of about 40 printed pages of information about MVD in Cavaliers.

I wish the ACKCSC had more information on EARLY ONSET mitral valve disease. This IS what all the early and test test testing is all about. MVD is NEVER going to be cured any more than any other aging disease will be.

So, when I get calls for cavaliers, whether they want a well bred cavalier or a rescue-- I give them all the bad news first, before I suggest they see one or get pictures of specific dogs that need homes.

WoodHaven
27th October 2009, 06:53 PM
My family has owned Cavaliers for the past 40 years. And, we've never bred them.

lol-- I don't 'know' you Mr. Russell.
I've owned dogs for over 40years-- I've only bred cavaliers and even that is RARE.

RodRussell
27th October 2009, 07:02 PM
I've never really thought about 'measuring' my dogs muzzle until today. I feel like an idiot for not knowing exactly where to start and where to finish the measuring.

Please, can you state a specific change?

To measure the muzzle, you start at the tip and stop at the stop! Go figure that one out. (Hint: it's in the breed standard).

Specific changes? Yes. To begin, the changes start with the ignorance of the judges, and then the breeders' desire to please those judges.

Start with the weight. Many over-weight dogs are being put up.

Second, head size. Ignorant judges put up dogs, particularly, with heads too large to be proportionate to the dog overall.

Eyes: judges mis-interpret the fault of "white surrounding ring" to mean any visible white at all.

Tail: Gay tails prevail now. I think many breeders have given up on well-placed tails.

Coat: Here is part of the AKC breed standard on coat:

"Feathering on ears, chest, legs and tail should be long, and the feathering on the feet is a feature of the breed. No trimming of the dog is permitted. Specimens where the coat has been altered by trimming, clipping, or by artificial means shall be so severely penalized as to be effectively eliminated from competition."

This entire section is being largely ignored in the ring. Trimming and chalking (and hair spray?) rule!

Temperament: Here is the AKC breed standard:

"Gay, friendly, non-aggressive with no tendency towards nervousness or shyness. Bad temper, shyness and meanness are not to be tolerated and are to be so severely penalized as to effectively remove the specimen from competition."

I think many breeders have given up on this temperament. It seems that genetic health is the first leg of the stool to be ignored, and temperament is the second. Right now, the breed is balanced on a stump of the remaining leg of the three-legged stool.

WoodHaven
27th October 2009, 07:25 PM
Well according to Ms. Carter - there are few cavaliers with 1.5 inches, so I figured I had to be doing it wrong. My shortest muzzled dog is about 1.4 inches.

Well, you are always going to have all breed judges that tell you to trim their feet (it is good grooming in their eyes) I've been told this, I refused to do it.

Two weeks ago I went to the CKCSC,USA show in Chicago. IF 5% were overweight, I'd be shocked. A few seemed under-- but most breeders are very aware of their dogs condition and won't bring them out if they aren't in shape. Over 100 cavaliers.
I'd say 80% of cavalier pet owners keep their dogs too heavy. I just picked up two cavalier for rehoming and yep, both are 2-3 pounds too heavy.

One person is saying miniaturization is an issue, now you say large heads is an issue.

The problem with tails is-- there is the natural tail position and some dogs raise their tails when excited. My two boys both do this. Neither has a gay tail, but if they are hunting, that thing will raise itself way high. AS a matter of fact, the lawn mower men are here now and if you saw Dickens tail, you'd swear his tail was shih tzu.
Tail placement and tail carriage are two very different things IMO.

The rest is just too generic to defend. There should be a line that isn't crossed. But judges that come from poodles may think that a natural cavalier is just too messy to place.

chloe92us
27th October 2009, 07:47 PM
But judges that come from poodles may think that a natural cavalier is just too messy to place.

So are you saying that show breeders are ignoring breed standard just to place? FWIW, I think all Cavaliers, pure bred or poor bred, are gorgeous.

RodRussell
27th October 2009, 07:51 PM
Well, you are always going to have all breed judges that tell you to trim their feet (it is good grooming in their eyes) I've been told this, I refused to do it..

I appreciate that. It probably is too much to expect an exhibitor to do, but I wish they would tell the judge that the breed standard strongly forbids trimming and that it is a disservice to the breed to counter that standard. Maybe on your way out of the ring, that could be said. Or, write to AKC about the judge. If I, as a spectator, heard a judge say that, I would contact AKC.


Two weeks ago I went to the CKCSC,USA show in Chicago. IF 5% were overweight, I'd be shocked. A few seemed under-- but most breeders are very aware of their dogs condition and won't bring them out if they aren't in shape. Over 100 cavaliers.
I'd say 80% of cavalier pet owners keep their dogs too heavy. I just picked up two cavalier for rehoming and yep, both are 2-3 pounds too heavy.

When I said "overweight", I did not mean fat; I meant proportional but over the 18 lb. limit.

Also, at CKCSC,USA shows, you are more apt to find exhibitors and judges following the breed standard. Most of those judges are Cavalier breeders, and when they aren't, they usually are the most responsible of AKC judges.

WoodHaven
27th October 2009, 07:58 PM
So are you saying that show breeders are ignoring breed standard just to place? FWIW, I think all Cavaliers, pure bred or poor bred, are gorgeous.

No, not all show breeders are ignoring the no clip rule. I was actually doing a bit of complaining about judges. You can avoid judges that don't appreciate the beauty of a natural cavalier.
I agree that most cavaliers are at least cute-- I have seen a few that weren't.

WoodHaven
27th October 2009, 08:06 PM
I appreciate that. It probably is too much to expect an exhibitor to do, but I wish they would tell the judge that the breed standard strongly forbids trimming and that it is a disservice to the breed to counter that standard. Maybe on your way out of the ring, that could be said. Or, write to AKC about the judge. If I, as a spectator, heard a judge say that, I would contact AKC.



When I said "overweight", I did not mean fat; I meant proportional but over the 18 lb. limit.

Also, at CKCSC,USA shows, you are more apt to find exhibitors and judges following the breed standard. Most of those judges are Cavalier breeders, and when they aren't, they usually are the most responsible of AKC judges.

There is no 18 pound limit-- IF it was a limit, the judge could ask dogs to be weighed. Per the breed standard-lol

Height 12 to 13 inches at the withers; weight, proportionate to height, between 13 and 18 pounds. These are ideal heights and weights; slight variations are permissible, and a dog should be penalized only in comparison with one of equal general appearance, type and quality. The weedy specimen is as much to be penalized as the oversized one.

Many of the exhibitors at the CKCSC shows are the same ones I see at the AKC shows.

With all the AKC cavalier clubs popping up all over the country, more and more of these AKC shows have high quality cavalier judges-

Yorkysue
27th October 2009, 08:22 PM
This thread has been aptly named. :biggrin: and together with the thread going in tandum re whether the breed has changed over the years I have pulled together a few observations.

Some people think Cavaliers are being bred smaller, some bigger.
Some people think heads are now smaller, some bigger.
Some people think that noses are more like 1" from tip to stop, others (inc myself) disagree.
Some indicate that cavaliers are now 'too pretty' :lpy:

What is a bit confusing for me is that somehow the problems of MVD and SM have now been 'linked' to how Cavaliers look now?

What a Cavalier looks like won't indicate what health problems it will have in the future. (Unless it has an obvious physical problem)

RodRussell
27th October 2009, 08:23 PM
There is no 18 pound limit-- IF it was a limit, the judge could ask dogs to be weighed. Per the breed standard-lol

Height 12 to 13 inches at the withers; weight, proportionate to height, between 13 and 18 pounds. These are ideal heights and weights; slight variations are permissible, and a dog should be penalized only in comparison with one of equal general appearance, type and quality. The weedy specimen is as much to be penalized as the oversized one.

Many of the exhibitors at the CKCSC shows are the same ones I see at the AKC shows.

With all the AKC cavalier clubs popping up all over the country, more and more of these AKC shows have high quality cavalier judges-

I am aware that over 18 lbs. is not disqualifying. I did not mean to imply that.

As for the affect of regional Cavalier clubs resulting in high quality judges, I have not witnessed that affect yet at the all-breed shows. An example: I went to an all-breed show a few months ago and noticed that Elaine Lessig was a judge. I thought that somebody must know what they are doing. Unfortunately, however, Elaine was not judging Cavaliers, and instead there was one of those typical judges, largely ignorant of the Cavalier breed standard, who apparently also thought that the only acceptable Cavalier was a Blenheim.

WoodHaven
27th October 2009, 08:32 PM
I am aware that over 18 lbs. is not disqualifying. I did not mean to imply that.

As for the affect of regional Cavalier clubs resulting in high quality judges, I have not witnessed that affect yet at the all-breed shows. An example: I went to an all-breed show a few months ago and noticed that Elaine Lessig was a judge. I thought that somebody must know what they are doing. Unfortunately, however, Elaine was not judging Cavaliers, and instead there was one of those typical judges, largely ignorant of the Cavalier breed standard, who apparently also thought that the only acceptable Cavalier was a Blenheim.

AKC specialty shows-- not necessarily all breed shows. These shows allow the clubs to pick judges, within reason.

Most common cavaliers being shown seem to be blenheim, tho ironically the number one cavalier in the AKC system isn't a blenheim.

Murphy
27th October 2009, 08:36 PM
Margaret,
We have discussed the problem of SM quite often and I think it is fair to say that we agree on most aspects of the disease.

We are both convinced that every dog/bitch used for breeding purposes should be MRI scanned - probably more than once, depending on age of 1st scan - before being bred from.
We agree that even when the gene/s for SM are discovered, this is only the beginning of a long haul toward eradicating the disease, entirely, from the breed.
As an aside, I would suggest that the same applies to MVD.

If we disagree on the quotes you have listed, then so be it. That is to be expected but is unimportant in the larger scheme of things.
I will try to explain my concerns, which are very real:

When dealing with large groups of people, it is unwise to imagine that the same approach will work for each individual: each person in the large group must be treated in a manner which best suits his/her needs.
BTW, that is why Group teaching became the norm in the 70s.

Further, any situation must be regularly re-assessed and judged according to its success.
I posted originally because I think that we have reached a point where re-assessment of the current situation is due.

As breeders, we are all standing in different places. We have different levels of experience, of knowledge, of understanding, and, most importantly of all, different levels of confidence that the road we have taken is indeed the right one.
We have the advice given in the breeding guidelines, and research results pending, but not a lot more, for the moment.

That, I can assure you, is a pretty vulnerable state in which to be.

Added to that is the fact that, from all these different places we must try to find a common bond which will enable us all to move forward together. Not an easy task.

We may have our private thoughts but for the good of the breed, these must now be put aside, in an attempt to create some kind of unity among cavalier breeders.
We must also learn to trust each other again.

It is equally important, that we try to engender a greater degree of confidence among the people who wish to own a Cavalier, and those who already do.

I do not think that bashing breeders and consequently maintaining a high state of alert among Pet owners as to breeders’ shortcomings, gives the necessary support to either group.

We have come far and will go further, but would fare better in a more supportive environment.
All good wishes,
Elspeth Glen

MARK MARSHALL
27th October 2009, 09:38 PM
Can you please explain how you forsee the 'process' of getting everyone to work together ?

I say it should come from the KC working in harmony with the CKCS Club(s) ?

The health Representatives are perhaps one major hurdle in that they dont necessarily miror the wishes of the Club memberships ?

What say you ?

Mark Marshall.

Murphy
27th October 2009, 11:54 PM
Mark, If I knew the answer to that I would be very happy. It will take time and much input from individual Clubs and breeders learning to trust each other once again.

We have to build up confidence all round.
The CKCS Club is not a regulatory body, so I am not sure how you envisage the 'working together' with the KC part?
Perhaps you could explain?
Elspeth

Margaret C
28th October 2009, 01:00 AM
If we disagree on the quotes you have listed, then so be it. That is to be expected but is unimportant in the larger scheme of things.
I will try to explain my concerns, which are very real:

When dealing with large groups of people, it is unwise to imagine that the same approach will work for each individual: each person in the large group must be treated in a manner which best suits his/her needs.


Hello Elspeth

I know that your concerns are real and I respect your reasons, but we are coming from very different places.
I know you have sat down to talk to people and how you have quietly discussed the common sense reasons for scanning.
It is hard to know for sure what difference that made, but I do believe that you gave some breeders the reasons they needed to look again at their attitude to scanning.

My question would be just how long would it take to find enough people with your skills and your standing to do this to each person in these large groups, and what happens in their breeding programmes in the meantime?

I do not believe this breed has time for a softly softly approach. I know as much as anyone about the dogs out there with SM, and frankly I am really scared how many symptomatic cavaliers are coming forward. It is worse than I ever imagined.

A diagnosis of SM is not a death sentence and many of these cavaliers will have their symptoms controlled by medication for many years, but some will not. Whatever the outcome the dogs will have times when they will have pain, and the owners will be distressed and anxious not knowing what to do for the best.
This is not what you expect when you buy a pet.

I spent six years as Cavalier Club SM spokesperson trying the persuasion route, and I am acutely aware of just how many affected dogs would have been produced in that time.
One day I realised that I had wasted my time, and I decided there and then that I would in future put the dogs, not the breeders, or the breed clubs, first.

MARK MARSHALL
28th October 2009, 07:57 AM
Elspeth, you have actually hit the nail on the head !

Expecting things just to happen quietly, behind the scenes will take an eternity.

Those that we need to change (and are not inclined to do so now) are NOT going to fall into line just by being talked to.

I saw a programme last night on stem cell work and how a pigs heart can be drained of cells and then a human's own cells 'perhaps' replaced - thus making the pig's heart restart and beat away. Utterly fantastic !

The point is, the future of the breed must be with research and scientists, who will, given the opportunity find an answer or two.

Everybody - should therefore be scanning big time (plus ALL other health checks) and thus doing their bit to help. That is still not happening in the way it should be.

I know about regulations and appreciate what the Club and the KC can/cannot do.

Thats why we do need some strict regulation as self regulation is never going to happen.

Sorry for a bit more doom etc but softly softly is NOT the way forward.

Keep up your efforts though as they clearly are helping.

Mark.

Murphy
28th October 2009, 09:07 AM
Margaret,
We both know that each of us has always favoured different approaches to persuading breeders to test their stock for SM.
Your approach did the job which needed to be done, early on, and you probably made more inroads than I ever did.
But I have become increasingly concerned by the antagonism which has erupted among groups of breeders.
This antagonism has little or nothing to do with the dogs - or with MRI scanning, but more to do with the fact that breeders feel vulnerable right now.
Such insecurity eats away at their confidence and they lash out .
This problem needs to be addressed because we breeders are going to need all the confidence we can muster for the task ahead............

.......When and if the gene/s for SM eventually reveal themselves,breeders work will have only just begun.
At this point, I will say to Mark that his expectation of a 'quick fix' will not happen. Real change comes slowly and gradually and only with the cooperation of breeders.

What if, when the gene/s are discovered, and testing begins.............horror of horrors.............the first, say, 100 CKCS to be tested are found to have the gene!
What then?
More guidelines?

I have spent much time 'thinking ahead' to such a hypothetical situation, and, of one thing I am sure, the breed is in no state right now to cope with any such eventuality.

I am anxious that we should all be working hard to improve the general confidence among breeders and remove much of the present antagonism. We will all need each other, maybe sooner rather than later.
So, let us all try to make the breed into a happier place to be, so that we can find, from each other, the strength to carry on.

Elspeth

Carol Fowler
28th October 2009, 10:26 AM
Apologies for jumping in and being so way behind. Mark said,

A data base needs to be started where ALL good breeders register their dogs and openly record results for ALL health checks, especially SM MVD and EYES, plus others.

This would be fantastic - something I've always wanted to happen. Why couldn't a group of breeders blaze a trail and do this - or even a whole club decide to do this. And what a wonderful example to set for other breeds as well.

Carol

Brian M
28th October 2009, 11:18 AM
Hi

I couldnt agree more a good recommended breeders register is what a lot of us pet owners have wished and wanted for a long time ,a place somewhere that when I get stopped which is often and asked who did you buy your Cavaliers from that I could answer with confidence and direct these people directly to a list which would surely help both our Cavaliers future and also directly help the good breeders who do follow all the required health tests that are now so urgently required..

When I bought my first girl Poppy the only decision I had to make was do I want a Westie ,Pug or Cavalier I hadnt a clue that each breed had loads of baggage and our Cavaliers more so ,so after we decided on a Cavalier the only place then that I knew of to look was the Kc accredited breeders list and so bit by bit my knowledge slightly increased and with my Daisy I wanted a higher breeding line then with Rosie I approached a club representative and finally for my Lily I was after a black and tan girl who had parents that had ticked all the right health and breeding boxes and it was only with Margarets guidance that after a long search and many phone calls I found her .But will Jo Public be prepared to search in this way and search for what as they have no idea of what questions need to be asked to a breeder,so a good breeders list would be so wellcome by many and hopefully help to stop the potential heartache that lies in wait unfortunately for many prospective future Cavalier owners. Please people make this list happen and name the people who do resposibly breed , and not shame the ones who dont ,just leave them to one side ,talking and negotiation is the only way forward division will only do more damage .

Bet
28th October 2009, 11:20 AM
I will not be be using Karlin's List to reply to the insults being hurled at me at the moment on the Cavalier Chat List.

My Motto through-out my life has always been .TO THINE-SELF BE TRUE.

Even when at the beginning of the SM Problem making it's appearance in our Cavalier Breed,I had believed in what I was saying.

How wrong I was!

Now to Margaret and Murphy's Posts ,Margaret mentioned another Motto,Softly, Softly Cachee Monkee, I was told this when 20 years ago I was battling about the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed, so Been There Done That!! It did'nt work.

Murphy said about Cavalier Breeders now feeling Vulnerable ,could I make the suggestion ,is it because Cavalier Owners now have the Internet Tool and are not afraid to speak about the Health Problems our Cavaliers,those Problems can no longer be being swept under the carpet .

Murphy ,also mentions about the finding of the SM/CM Genes, what then, could I respectfully suggest ,yes what then, will all the Cavalier Breeders have their Cavalier Breeding Stock Blood Tested to find out if those Cavaliers have the SM /CM Genes or Gene, when some at the moment are saying they won't be MRI Scanning their Breeding Stock to help with Dr Blott's EBV Scheme, and would some Cavalier Breeders even use the Cavalier's name given from the EBV Scheme ,if they thought it had no chance of winning in the Show Ring.Another $64,000 question.

Yes let the Cavalier World be a Happier Place, let all Cavalier Breeders carry out Health Tests, and not be said as our UK Club Chair-man said in March on the UK CKCS CLUB Web Site

Bet
28th October 2009, 11:24 AM
Just read Carol's and Brian's Posts.

What a great idea ,how about having this included in the next UK CKCS CLUB's AGM

diddy
28th October 2009, 11:38 AM
Hi Carol, Yes this is something that most people on here want to happen. But I can't see it happening anytime soon :(.

I, a non breeder/exhibitor am happy to test my dogs at the appropriate point and have no qualms about publishing the result. After all I have nothing to loose. They are too young yet for meaningful results but I will have them tested and pass the results on.


Now if I had stayed with the breed 'since the 70's, built up a good reputation, had several succesful dogs at stud, and a good brood bitch or two would I still be prepared to publish those results good or bad? I've thought long and hard about this question and the honest answer is No Way!! :eek: I could loose my reputation, and everything I've worked so hard for over the past 30 years. For me personally thats just too big a risk to take.

So there you have me warts n all. Mrs say one thing, do another.

But if the tests were mandatory, and results published as standard practice, then its not such a huge personal problem. I'd be on a level playing field along with everyone else. At least then we could congratulate and commiserate (sp?) with each other.

FWIW my opinion is that until researchers find the genes responsible for SM MVD etc etc the tests need to be mandatory . Lets get everyone in the same boat all paddling in the same direction.

Murphy
28th October 2009, 11:49 AM
Margaret,
We both know that each of us has always favoured different approaches to persuading breeders to test their stock for SM.
Your approach did the job which needed to be done, early on, and you probably made more inroads than I ever did.
But I have become increasingly concerned by the antagonism which has erupted among groups of breeders.
This antagonism has little or nothing to do with the dogs - or with MRI scanning, but more to do with the fact that breeders feel vulnerable right now.
Such insecurity eats away at their confidence and they lash out .
This problem needs to be addressed because we breeders are going to need all the confidence we can muster for the task ahead............

.......When and if the gene/s for SM eventually reveal themselves,breeders work will have only just begun.
At this point, I will say to Mark that his expectation of a 'quick fix' will not happen. Real change comes slowly and gradually and only with the cooperation of breeders.

What if, when the gene/s are discovered, and testing begins.............horror of horrors.............the first, say, 100 CKCS to be tested are found to have the gene!
What then?
More guidelines?

I have spent much time 'thinking ahead' to such a hypothetical situation, and, of one thing I am sure, the breed is in no state right now to cope with any such eventuality.

I am anxious that we should all be working hard to improve the general confidence among breeders and remove much of the present antagonism. We will all need each other, maybe sooner rather than later.
So, let us all try to make the breed into a happier place to be, so that we can find, from each other, the strength to carry on.

Elspeth


Karlin,
I have been asked by the Moderator of Cavalier Chat if I would post the above post on their site.
May I have your permission to do so?

Elspeth Glen

Margaret C
28th October 2009, 01:38 PM
Margaret,
We both know that each of us has always favoured different approaches to persuading breeders to test their stock for SM.
Your approach did the job which needed to be done, early on, and you probably made more inroads than I ever did.
But I have become increasingly concerned by the antagonism which has erupted among groups of breeders.
This antagonism has little or nothing to do with the dogs - or with MRI scanning, but more to do with the fact that breeders feel vulnerable right now.
Such insecurity eats away at their confidence and they lash out .
This problem needs to be addressed because we breeders are going to need all the confidence we can muster for the task ahead............

.......When and if the gene/s for SM eventually reveal themselves,breeders work will have only just begun.
At this point, I will say to Mark that his expectation of a 'quick fix' will not happen. Real change comes slowly and gradually and only with the cooperation of breeders.

What if, when the gene/s are discovered, and testing begins.............horror of horrors.............the first, say, 100 CKCS to be tested are found to have the gene!
What then?
More guidelines?

I have spent much time 'thinking ahead' to such a hypothetical situation, and, of one thing I am sure, the breed is in no state right now to cope with any such eventuality.

I am anxious that we should all be working hard to improve the general confidence among breeders and remove much of the present antagonism. We will all need each other, maybe sooner rather than later.
So, let us all try to make the breed into a happier place to be, so that we can find, from each other, the strength to carry on.

Elspeth

Hello Elspeth,
Thank you for your thought provoking post.


This antagonism has little or nothing to do with the dogs - or with MRI scanning, but more to do with the fact that breeders feel vulnerable right now.
Such insecurity eats away at their confidence and they lash out .
This problem needs to be addressed because we breeders are going to need all the confidence we can muster for the task ahead

I am not quite sure in which way you mean vulnerable? and not sure what you feel can be done to change the reality of the situation?

I can sympathise with those breeders, large or small, who dread the verdict as they wait for the results of their MRI scans.
I have faced the same fears, and will do so again when Faith is rescanned in the spring.

I have felt enormous sadness when breeders have phoned me to say they have lost their line after generations of breeding. Small breeders with a few bitches and they cannot bear to put their Grade D bitches through a whelping.
Statistically, the larger breeders are probably be in a better position, they will find enough Grade A cavaliers among their breeding stock to be able to carry on.

The breed is in a very vulnerable position, it has been for years, but no one would recognise it.
There is no magic wand that will make it go away, and no amount of ignoring the lead researchers, or boycotting the only research that will give a definitive test for this condition, will change what has to be dealt with.


What if, when the gene/s are discovered, and testing begins.............horror of horrors.............the first, say, 100 CKCS to be tested are found to have the gene!
What then?
More guidelines?

I have spent much time 'thinking ahead' to such a hypothetical situation, and, of one thing I am sure, the breed is in no state right now to cope with any such eventuality.

That may not be so hypothetical, and the eventuality will have to be coped with, whatever the state the breed (or breeders) are in.
If more guidelines are needed to save cavaliers from suffering from SM, then so be it.
Just look at the post about the cavalier that was screaming at six months. How can breeders read these accounts and not do all they can to help this breed that they say they love?


I am anxious that we should all be working hard to improve the general confidence among breeders and remove much of the present antagonism. We will all need each other, maybe sooner rather than later.
So, let us all try to make the breed into a happier place to be, so that we can find, from each other, the strength to carry on.

I know that the members of CavalierTalk have asked for your post to be put on their forum and I would guess that it is this last paragraph that they will concentrate on.

They are unlikely to ask if this post of mine can be crossposted.

I do understand what you are saying, but this has to be two way process, and the first thing that is needed is for threats of Special General Meetings to be dropped as a way of controlling committees or individuals.

If I, or Carol Fowler, decide to stand for a cavalier club committee, are these breeders going to welcome two people who really know about the SM problem and work closely with the researchers, or are they going to panic committees into resigning as happened last year?

Bet
28th October 2009, 01:47 PM
I sure await with interest Murphy's reply on your question on how would Cavalier Breeders respond to you or Carol standing for the Forth Coming CKCS CLUB Committee Elections.

If Margaret or Carol were elected Murphy,would this not go such a long way in healing the Breach within in the CKCS CLUB at the moment.

Murphy, what are your views about this. ?

Murphy
28th October 2009, 08:32 PM
Margaret, I will try to keep this reply as brief as possible as I honestly feel we have pretty well exhausted the topic by now, and also, out of courtesy to those on the forum who are not breeders and may be becoming a little bored with all of this.
Frankly breeders are afraid. We are afraid of what the future might hold .
Being afraid makes you feel vulnerable.

Vulnerable people need support and are not best served by constant criticism.

I am a 'small breeder', have worked hard for more than 4 years to test and eliminate this disease, just like you have. I don't get phone-calls from those who have sick dogs, but I do read the posts on this forum and sympathise greatly with owners and affected dogs.

But the reality of the situation is this: with 2 ideal mates, dog and bitch, it is on the cards that we will produce a ratio of 1 out of 4 puppies affected.
We have to breed on in the knowledge that this is what we can expect. Sarah Blott told me this last year.
It does not inspire confidence, I think you will agree.
We wait for the phone-calls.............. not much fun.
I am sure you can remember back to the time when you also were 'at the sharp end' of breeding.
I have made the suggestion that one way to offer support might be to stop the constant criticism of breeders, in general, every time someone posts to say that they have had a bad experience with one.
Even if it is not intentional, I still feel it refers to me and I know others do also. It hurts.
That is all I am trying to point out.

Perhaps it would have been faster just to say that in the beginning?

I was not part of anything that happened at the UK Club AGM, nor would that be my way of dealing with frustration.

Since I do not represent anyone other than myself, I have no idea how any other breeder might cast a vote.
While on the subject of representation, I should add that these posts have been composed by me alone in an effort to stop the bickering from both sides.
Mea Culpa
Sincerely,
Elspeth Glen

Murphy
28th October 2009, 09:40 PM
I am sorry to disappoint you Bet but, since I represent only myself, I do not have the knowledge required to answer your question.
Nor do I concur with your enthusiasm for perpetuating antagonism.
Elspeth

Clairelou
29th October 2009, 11:21 AM
But the reality of the situation is this: with 2 ideal mates, dog and bitch, it is on the cards that we will produce a ratio of 1 out of 4 puppies affected.


Hi Elspeth, could you please expand on "2 ideal mates" do you mean 2 dogs scanned clear of sm? will produce a ratio of 1 out of 4 affected puppies? Many thanks.

Murphy
29th October 2009, 11:32 AM
Hi Elspeth, could you please expand on "2 ideal mates" do you mean 2 dogs scanned clear of sm? will produce a ratio of 1 out of 4 affected puppies? Many thanks.

Yes,
Until we can work to rid ourselves of the gene/s which carry on the problem, this is what we must expect. I am sorry not to be more encouraging.
Elspeth

Clairelou
29th October 2009, 11:37 AM
Yes,
Until we can work to rid ourselves of the gene/s which carry on the problem, this is what we must expect. I am sorry not to be more encouraging.
Elspeth

Oh my oh my, I didn't realise the probability was THAT bad :( :(

MARK MARSHALL
29th October 2009, 11:37 AM
Whose figures are these ?

What evidence do you have to support the statement ?

Mark.

Murphy
29th October 2009, 11:52 AM
Mark,
If you have read my post to Margaret, you will see whose figures they are. As for evidence - the same person would be the source.
If you have done any reading of genetics, you will know that for a dog to be classified as 'clear' of a problem, the fastest method and the most accurate is to DNA test for same - in other words test for the gene.
Although there are other ways - which were used long before DNA testing was available, such as test-matings, etc, these are less reliable.
So, until our cavaliers are declared to be 'free' of the gene/s causing SM., MVD, or any other disease, we cannot describe any dog accurately as being 'clear'.

Hope this is helpful?
Elspeth

Bet
29th October 2009, 11:57 AM
Mark,

Like you I would like to hear Murpky's reply to your Post.

I must have missed the Statement from the SM Researchers giving the information about the Mode of Inheritance, I thought at the moment this was unknown.

Murphy's mention about 1 in 4 having the SM problem can only be given when the Mode of Inheritance is known to be a Recessive or whatever type of Gene, I am not sure about this information ,so perhaps Murphy can let us know.

Bet
29th October 2009, 12:07 PM
Just read Murphy's reply to Mark ,I believe that you cant say as has been said Cavaliers clear of SM. 1 in 4 will have SM ,the Mode of Inheritance has to be known.

Murphy
29th October 2009, 12:24 PM
I would suggest that you take this up with Sarah Blott.
Elspeth

WoodHaven
29th October 2009, 12:34 PM
Just read Murphy's reply to Mark ,I believe that you cant say as has been said Cavaliers clear of SM. 1 in 4 will have SM ,the Mode of Inheritance has to be known.

See, I thought she was working with the theory that if we can't prove two dogs are clear, they are/maybe carriers. Working with two carriers will give you (simplistic version) one clear, two carriers, one affected. I could be wrong.

Imcomplete penetrance seems to be a working theory-- which means that dogs WITH the disease can look clear.

incomplete penetrance adjective Referring to the presence of a gene that is not phenotypically expressed in all members of a family with the gene.

Murphy
29th October 2009, 12:41 PM
See, I thought she was working with the theory that if we can't prove two dogs are clear, they are/maybe carriers. Working with two carriers will give you (simplistic version) one clear, two carriers, one affected. I could be wrong.

Imcomplete penetrance seems to be a working theory-- which means that dogs WITH the disease can look clear.

incomplete penetrance adjective Referring to the presence of a gene that is not phenotypically expressed in all members of a family with the gene.


Spot on Sandy.
Elspeth

Clairelou
29th October 2009, 01:24 PM
I apreciate 'clear' wasn't the best term to use, better to use term 'absent' for each criteria as used on the Chestergates MRI certs.

Murphy
29th October 2009, 01:50 PM
Spot on Sandy.
Elspeth
Originally Posted by WoodHaven http://board.cavaliertalk.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?p=340381#post340381)
See, I thought she was working with the theory that if we can't prove two dogs are clear, they are/maybe carriers. Working with two carriers will give you (simplistic version) one clear, two carriers, one affected. I could be wrong.


Sandy, Just some clarification:
When I said 'spot on', I was referring to the first paragraph (above) of your post.
I have no knowledge whatsoever, of what theory Sarah Blott may be considering.
However, as you say above until we can prove otherwise, we must assume that all dogs are carriers.
This leads to the 'theory' of 1 in 4.

Clairelou, if you follow what I have written above, then it really does not matter what words you use to describe a dog which is graded 'clear' on an MRI scan.

Until we can prove a dog is not a carrier, we must assume that it is.

Elspeth

Clairelou
29th October 2009, 02:20 PM
I fully apreciate we must consider all cavaliers as carriers!!!!

WoodHaven
29th October 2009, 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by WoodHaven http://board.cavaliertalk.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?p=340381#post340381)
See, I thought she was working with the theory that if we can't prove two dogs are clear, they are/maybe carriers. Working with two carriers will give you (simplistic version) one clear, two carriers, one affected. I could be wrong.


Sandy, Just some clarification:
When I said 'spot on', I was referring to the first paragraph (above) of your post.
I have no knowledge whatsoever, of what theory Sarah Blott may be considering.
However, as you say above until we can prove otherwise, we must assume that all dogs are carriers.
This leads to the 'theory' of 1 in 4.

Clairelou, if you follow what I have written above, then it really does not matter what words you use to describe a dog which is graded 'clear' on an MRI scan.

Until we can prove a dog is not a carrier, we must assume that it is.

Elspeth

That is the way I read your comment.
The Incomplete Penetrance would explain how a dog could MRI well and still be "affected" by the disease. Still pass it on etc..

Bet
29th October 2009, 02:33 PM
More confused than ever.

The question still has to be answered , what is the Mode of Inheritance of Cavaliers with SM.

The SM/ CM Genes have still to be found.

So I would guess it's no use speculating about the Mode of Inheritance till those Genes are discovered,

At present I would think the only way forward with the Cavalier SM Problem is to MRI Cavalier Breeding Stock.

Unfortunately the Cavalier MVD Problem just can't be being said by Cavalier Breeders , is all about what we do now and in the future.

The Heart Problem has been known about in the Cavalier Breed since ,as I have often said, from the 1940's, I have contacted the LUPA Researchers who are doing the Research into the MVD Problem in our Breed and they have agreed that it is possible that there will be many Cavalier Carriers now with the MVD Gene/Genes.

The instructions from the Researchers ,because of this, is that the best out-look for our Cavalier Breed is to try and delay the onset of MVD is by not Breeding from Cavaliers before they are 2.5 years of age combined with the Heart details of their Parents at 5 years.

This is just not the UK CKCS MVD Breeding Guidelines, but also from Professor J Bell ,Geneticist , Tufts University ,America, who gave me this information,.

Are the Cavalier Breeders now doing this ,I wonder if this will also be the Recommendations from the APGAW Committee to be given on Monday ,2-11-09,.

Jay
29th October 2009, 02:52 PM
Hi Elspeth, could you please expand on "2 ideal mates" do you mean 2 dogs scanned clear of sm? will produce a ratio of 1 out of 4 affected puppies? Many thanks.

For simple modes of inheritance of single recessive genes, the chance of EACH INDIVIDUAL receiving both recessive genes is 25%, the chance of receiving one dominant and one recessive gene is 50% and the chance of receiving both dominant genes is 25%. You absolutely have to look at it with each individual puppy. The fact that two clear scanned dogs can produce puppies with SM suggests that clear scanned dogs can still be carriers of the gene(s).

Unfortunately, often times, it isn't that simple. Some genes are evident at birth, others wait to turn on. There are some syndromes where some characteristics are evident at birth and secondary characteristics pop up later in life. Even within families with the same syndromes, some characteristics may be present in some individuals and not others. Some may be more prominent in one family member than in others.

Within syndromes themselves, there may be "types", ie, type 1, type 2,etc. Each of these different "types" are associated with different gene combinations. The more information that can be given to researchers, the better they will be able to make determinations about what is actually happening in both MVD and SM. I am in awe of researchers who have the patience and determination to study and find answers to what is happening in these very complex disease processes.

J.

chloe92us
29th October 2009, 04:26 PM
I think what Elspeth is saying is: True, there is not yet a test for the genes that carry SM. The ONLY thing that can be done now is to MRI dogs and pick the most logical breeding matches. However, even then, 2 A graded dogs CAN AND DO produce affected offspring. This FACT leads her and many others, to assume (because that's all there is to go on right now) that ALL Cavaliers are carriers. SO...for every 4 pups, there is that statistical chance that 1 will be affected with SM.

You're twisting words around again Bet, and sounding like you're trying to get an argument going. Your questions have already been answered.

What I am curious about; is what are the statistics on breeding an SM affected dog with an A-graded bitch or vice versa? Do the odds of inheritance increase?

Bet
29th October 2009, 06:17 PM
Where have I gone wrong ,I quoted the information that Dr Rusbridge has put on her www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk Web Site,with recent Web Site updates, and Karlin also mentioned in her Post yesterday .

I will ,with Karlin's permission ,Post Dr C Rusbridge's recent Web Site Update.

Quote,

What causes Chiari-like malformation(CM)?

CM is not yet fully understood ,somehow the Minaturisation Process in the Cavalier went Awry and unlike many other Toy Breeds the Brain did not decrease in Size in Proportionwith the Skull .

The Cavalier appears to have a Brain more appropriate for Bigger Dog.

Studies in the Griffon Bruxellois(Rusbridge et al 2009)have suggested that CM in this Breed is Characterised by a Short Skull base.

This shortening results in an Compensatory increase in the size of some of the other Skull Bones ,meaning that the Forebrain is accommodatedhowever there is no compensatory increase in size of the back of the Skull ,meaning that there is not enough room for the Cerebellum and Brain Stem.

There is more on the recent information on Dr C Rusbridge's Web Site if any-one cares to read it.

So Chloe ,I can't understand what I have done wrong in mentioning this,and any other information ,is information I have had from experts that I have contacted,and passed it on, what is wrong with that, .

In all my Posts I have never got to the level of giving Personal insults.

All I put the Personal Insults I am being subjected to at the moment, must be when others have lost the argument , they then stop about the Issues and go for the People instead.

Bet
29th October 2009, 06:35 PM
Thanks Jay, I have just read your interesting Post ,so really what the SM Problem boils down to is , how successful the Genome Research will be in Canada in finding the CM/SM / Gene/Genes.

In the meantime ,for Cavalier Breeders to be MRI Scanning their Cavalier Breeding Stock, since in a Post to-day ,it said that it should be assumed that all Cavaliers will be Carriers of the SM /CM Gene/ Genes.

chloe92us
29th October 2009, 06:52 PM
Bet, I did not say anything personal about you; just commented on your "forum style". I'm just saying that many times I get confused reading through threads because you jump around and create new topics within a thread that are off-topic, and probably should be started in a new thread. That's all. See, now didn't that sound confusing? Welcome to my world! :rolleyes:

Ruth
29th October 2009, 11:22 PM
More confused than ever.


The instructions from the Researchers ,because of this, is that the best out-look for our Cavalier Breed is to try and delay the onset of MVD is by not Breeding from Cavaliers before they are 2.5 years of age combined with the Heart details of their Parents at 5 years.

This is just not the UK CKCS MVD Breeding Guidelines, but also from Professor J Bell ,Geneticist , Tufts University ,America, who gave me this information,.

Are the Cavalier Breeders now doing this ,I wonder if this will also be the Recommendations from the APGAW Committee to be given on Monday ,2-11-09,.

I am confused too Bet, as I understand it AGPAW is not a breed specific committee just a general animal welfare committee - I would have thought it extremely unlikely they would recommend anything re Cavaliers as a breed.

Bet
30th October 2009, 09:48 AM
Sorry Chloe for lashing out at you, at the moment I am feeling bruised at the Venemous Insults I have received.

There is a particular Post I have just read on the Cavalier Chat List, which will I am sure will explain how many of us Cavalier Pet Owners feel.

To go onto Murphy's mention of Cavalier Breeders feeling vulnerable at the moment, it should never be being forgotten how vulnerable Cavalier Pet Owners are feeling knowing their Beloved Cavaliers are suffering from SM or MVD.

Next Point ,the APGAW Committee are working alongside Professor Sir P Bateson's Committee,he has already mentioned in his prelimary Report ,SM in Cavaliers,but all will be revealed on from APGAW 's Report on Monday.

Sorry about this Chloe, jumping about again but wanted to mention this fact.

A few years ago Dr M . Willis, the World Renowned Genetist, from here in Britain, wrote an Article in Dog World, when he had heard about 50% of Cavaliers having a Heart Murmur at 5 years, that this would mean that
41% of Cavaliers would be Carriers of the MVD Gene,

9% of Cavaliers would not have MVD.

To put figures on this,

There will probably be 100,000 Cavaliers alive to-day ,that means
50,000 of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur.

41,000 will be MVD Carriers.

I can't work how many 9% of rest will mean in figures. No good at Maths.!!but it can't be very many Cavaliers left who could be OK.

Some-body said in a Post yesterday ,it could be assumed the all Cavaliers could be Carriers of the SM/CM Genes ,so that possibly means that 100,000 Cavaliers living to-day could be SM Carriers.

Bet
30th October 2009, 11:36 AM
I mentioned the Plea from a Karen ,a Cavalier Pet owner, on the Cavalier Chat List, just wondered is this the same Karen who Posts on this List, if it is ,Thank you for what you have said.

I know that the BYB 's and Puppy Farmers have a lot to answer for, but for us Cavalier Pet Owners ,it's us who have to pick up the Pieces when our Cavaliers develope a Health Problem when Cavalier Breeders just do not carry out Health Tests on their Cavalier Breeding Stock, this does not only apply , unfortunately only to the BYB's and Puppy Farmers,but to some other Cavalier Breeders as well.

Karen and Ruby
30th October 2009, 02:23 PM
Bet

Yes that was me- it just gets to me the huge divide between breeders and pet owners.

Bet
30th October 2009, 05:14 PM
Karen ,thanks for putting me in the picture, your Post sure did tug at my Heart Strings.

Could I be allowed ,before this Thread has run it's course ,since I think it's the perfect Thread to pose this Question.

Is the reason why I have to face so much antagonism from some Cavalier Breeders , be because they want their the Breeding Circle to be a Closed Shop, but because I am a Cavalier Pet Owner ,never been a Cavalier Breeder ,only went to a few Cavalier Shows ,but know ,I think about as much about the History of our Cavalier Breed as those certain Cavalier Breeders do ,having spoken to a number of the Old Cavalier Breeders who are no longer with us,

Always asked the Experts Researching the Cavalier Health Problems and passed on the information I was given ,collected Cavalier Pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from MVD ,and passed them onto Researchers at the Universities researching the Cavalier MVD Problem, all this has upset those certain few Cavalier Breeders ,this is why I am so resented.

I was once told about, a couple of years ago,to stop Poking my Nose in by a Cavalier Breeder,.

I think that remark really does explain the Treatment I am getting at the moment.

antigone
30th October 2009, 06:52 PM
Bet,

I can FULLY appreciate what you must be getting in terms of nasty email and venom. I got that by simply quoting what the breeder who owns the sire of my SM dog, Levi, said when I reported that Levi has SM.

I think that you are right, BTW. I find that people in general rarely know anything about SM. When I took Levi for his surgery at LIVS he was quite the topic of conversation for people who saw him. I did not meet ONE person (and I have to tell you Levi was quite the focus of attention for at least 100 people) who had any knowledge of SM at all.

When people ask me about him and why he had his head shaved or why he has a visible incision on the back of his head or why I have to take him in a stroller if I am going to take him anyplace, I find that NOBODY knows about SM. I am NOT just talking about Boise, ID. Levi and I went through the Las Vegas airport twice and through Midway airport in Chicago. When Levi was going to and from surgery, every place we stayed was full of people who had absolutely NO idea about all the serious health problems of Cavaliers. For many people, a Cavalier is the kind of dog that one of the characters on "Sex and the City" owned and that is all they know.

I honestly do not know what to say when people ask me about owning a Cavalier. I have to caution them that Cavaliers have MANY health problems and that they need to be VERY careful if they choose to adopt a Cavalier. Of course Levi is (was!) cute and people love these little dogs just because they are so cute and so sweet. They think that Cavaliers would be great to have for their next dog.

The local paper has two classified ads for Cavalier puppies all with AKC registrations. Most people really do think that AKC registered means that the dog is guaranteed to be healthy when, in fact, AKC registration does not speak to health issues at all. These puppies are selling for $800USD and MOST people really believe if they pay THAT much for a puppy that is a sign that they are getting THE BEST.

My puppy started showing symptoms (probably) before I adopted him at five months. I was extraordinarily lucky to have a vet who also owns a (rescue) Cavalier and knew about SM. The MRI for Levi locally to confirm his diagnosis ended up being just short of $2500USD. THEN I had to decide what to do and I had to decide rapidly. He was getting worse rapidly and not really responding well to neurontin, Tramadol, Prilosec, or anything else he was given. It was very clear that I had only two choices: euthanasia or surgery. Since it is impossible to get the newer and more successful surgery anywhere close to where I live, I took him over 2000 miles for surgery.

NOBODY knows about Cavalier health problems here or anyplace we traveled. PDE has not (to my knowledge) been shown in the US. People are totally clueless and they buy puppies from anyone who calls themselves a breeder. They believe that they have safety if they avoid buying from a pet shop and that breeders are experts who will assure that the puppy they are buying will be healthy.

I honestly believe that, if puppies were covered by the Consumer Product Safety Commission as are toasters and children's toys, there might be some reform. I think it should be illegal to sell pedigreed dogs without regulation. People who buy puppies do not know any better and the vast majority of Cavalier puppies are sold by people who do no screening at all, certainly no MRIs on the parents of the puppies. Saying that the price of the MRI is a reasonable excuse for not doing them is nonsense. If ALL breeders were legally liable for proving that they have done all available screening, the price of MRIs would drop sharply.

As it is now, while there are certainly ethical breeders, it is impossible to tell who they are. People are smart to be cautious but, so far, hardly anybody buying puppies knows enough to sort the ethical breeders from the unethical breeders.

If people who breed dogs want to improve the reputation of breeders it shouldn't be by punishing people who speak up about the very real and serious problems. If ethical breeders had standards supported by the most currant science and held themselves to those standards then there might be some progress. If an AKC registration meant what the common person THINKS it means, the reputation of breeders would not be in danger.

Okay. I will get ready for all the nasty email all over again!

Kathy

WoodHaven
30th October 2009, 08:19 PM
Not a nasty post, just some questions or simple statements.

1. What did you want the breeder to do? I think I would want them to say how badly they felt, how sorry they were for the dogs suffering. What they would plan to do so this didn't happen again.

2. Could the breeders reaction have been shock (you didn't say what transpired, but I have a good imagination)?

3. Most people don't know about SM- not for dogs or humans, doesn't shock me. All reputable cavalier breeders, by now, must have heard about SM-- or they are really living under a rock.

4. AKC is a registering entity-- like the DMV-- they won't guarantee your car, but they will license it.

5. PDE is on You tube- or was. I watched it in parts, felt like vomiting.

6. All states have some provision for the sale of defective stuff. Many states have lemon laws.

7. 800 dollars for a cavalier is extremely cheap. A well bred cavalier is a minimum of 1500.00(much more commonly 2000-3000USD).

I sell my pet cavaliers (haven't done it in a long time tho) with a 4 page contract telling the buyer exactly what I will do if stuff like this happens. They get copies of the most current health tests for pup and parents. The one thing I can't do is guarantee their pup won't get sick.

Mindysmom
31st October 2009, 12:20 AM
i have been following this thread but haven't felt the need to comment until now. I think that there should be an onus on the pet owners (of which I am one) to ask for documentation of health testing. I may have been extremely lucky that the breeders of both my Golden and Mindy were very ethical and provided me with copies of health tests etc. without being asked. I thought this was standard practice.

I will admit since Mindy was such a healthy dog I didn't do my full research when it came time to get Max. Although I knew about MVD I had never heard of SM. Max's breeder certainly didn't mention it to me either. Although I asked the right questions I never did see the paperwork I was expecting and wasn't emotionally able to walk away. I did however meet both his sire and dam on one of our visits and got to spend some time with his sire (mom was still with the puppies).

When we decided to get Rylie I was more cautious. I actually wasn't planning on getting a pup until next summer. Sometimes though, things work out differently than our plans. Rylie's sire and dam are both fully tested and clear of any problems. His breeder made sure I was aware that this would not guarantee that he would not develop MVD or SM - or any other health issue for that matter. Rylie's breeder did not even send me puppy pictures (and who can resist those?) until we had 100% decided that we were going to go ahead with a pup (timing was an issue for us).

I rushed my search for Max a bit but I do have to say that every single breeder I talked to when I started my search for a new puppy (Rylie), health tested - was willing to talk about SM and MVD, or any other issue I brought up. Of all four breeders I've dealt with they have all been more than willing to answer questions - I phoned the breeder of our Golden when he had his first seizure at six years old ( for information mainly) , she was sympathetic, honest that it wasn't an issue in his litter (he only had two litter-mates and she kept one), or in his line, while still offering me suggestions and support even though it had been many years since we got Zeus.

The breeders of all of my dogs have been supportive and helpful through the years and answered my questions even if they were years after we got the dog. I may have just been lucky - or maybe the breeder situation is different in North America but I certainly appreciate the breeders that have entrusted me with their dogs.

Karen and Ruby
31st October 2009, 12:57 AM
[QUOTE=Mindysmom;340591]i have been following this thread but haven't felt the need to comment until now. I think that there should be an onus on the pet owners (of which I am one) to ask for documentation of health tests.

I think as yet there isnt enough info out there for potential owners to know all the right questions to ask.
In no book specifically written about the cavalier for potential new owners does it mention the seriousness of SM.
Maybe someone could write to the publishers and ask for an updated version to be published??

antigone
31st October 2009, 01:24 AM
I replied point by point and, as I read it over, it does not have a friendly tone. That is NOT my intent! I am sure that anyone on this forum has true alarm, fear, and dread of SM. I am sure that every breeder who is on this forum is doing everything that can be done to assure that healthy puppies are born. This forum is self-selecting, though. The majority of people breeding and selling Cavaliers in the US do NOT belong to this forum. My concerns are about the people who just don’t care whether the puppies they breed are healthy; the people who say that they would NEVER have their dogs MRIed (that CAN”T be a verb, I don’t know how to say it!). I am speaking about the general level of ignorance and deceit among the great majority of breeders in this country. If vets don’t know about SM here, how likely is it that people without any knowledge of animal health issues will know enough to even attempt to avoid it?

1. I wanted the breeder to stop using the dog at stud and not to sire another 100 puppies with SM. There is some possible way to (wishfully?) think that a dog is not a carrier…until one of his puppies has SM, severely and early in life. After the dog has had at least one puppy with SM, there is no longer any doubt about carrier status. There was some kind of general statement to me that implied that his champion bloodline made it unlikely that one of his puppies having SM could have had anything to do with their dog.

2. The breeder’s reaction was NOT shock, it was denial and it was quite cold and uncooperative. They said that they would have their dog “tested.” They said that they had never heard of SM in their lines and implied that they didn’t even really need to know about it. At the very least, the price paid for the puppy could be returned to help pay the enormous expenses involved in the car of a puppy with SM. While I did NOT ask for or want the money, I DID want to know that the people who owned Levi’s parents were NOT just ignore the fact that he was born. I wanted to know that the owners of Levi’s brothers and sisters were informed and told what they might see if the puppies they owned started to show symptoms.

3. Living under a rock or using their dog “with Champion lines” to continue making money. The dog is still being advertised as being available for stud. They did not want to retire their expensive and prize winning dog.

4. I know that AKC is a registering entity but MANY people do not know that. That is what I was trying to say! Most people think that being AKC registered is a proof of “quality.”

5. While PDE is on YouTube, people have to hear about it and seek it out. If they have never heard anything about it, it is unlikely that they will just stumble over it before they leave home to pick up their new puppy.

6. Lemon laws do not apply to dogs. While I understand that some people have tried to sue to get their investment back, if people do not even know what the disease is, it is unlikely that they are going to sue. If a person buys a car and that car is defective there are provisions to deal with it. If thousands of cars have the same defects (remember Ford Pinto and Ralph Nader?) the company who is making defective cars is required by law to stop making cars with the defect. If the owner of a puppy finds out that the puppy has a serious or life-threatening illness, sometimes the breeder will offer to take the puppy back in exchange for another puppy. How many people want to just give back a sick puppy they have come to love? And if they actually do want to just trade the puppy in for another “model,” maybe there is something seriously wrong with them and their feelings of love and responsibility for their pets. Maybe these people would like to replace their child with a healthy child if he/she is born with a birth defect.

7. While I understand that $800 is very cheap, many people do not know that. They do not understand that they should be concerned about anyone who is selling puppies for that amount. Many people feel that $800 is a lot of money to spend on a pet and are convinced that spending that much must be a sign that they are buying a “quality” dog.

While nobody can guarantee that a puppy will continue to be healthy, people who do not even take the most basic care to try to breed healthy puppies are, in my eyes, committing an inhuman act even it currently is not a criminal act.

WoodHaven
31st October 2009, 01:36 AM
I did try to use a neutral tone. Sorry if you don't think so.

1. That wouldn't be a neuro recommendation. The only recommendation I got when I got pups with SM was NEVER breed that dog and bitch together again.

2. I don't know who the breeder was, so I won't comment further.

3. Some breeders claim champion lines if they can find 1 in the last 8 ancestors-- to me champion lines would mean sire and or dam were finished champions.

4. Even dual registered in the USA doesn't mean anything, but they were in the stud books.

5. I took note of PDE shortly after it came out. I am not particularly in the 'know'.

6. Puppy lemon laws DO pertain to puppies.. many states have them.

7. What can I say?

Basic care to breed healthy dogs usually doesn't involve a 2300 USD test. I have 7 done-- some of those will never be bred.

Mindysmom
31st October 2009, 02:08 AM
I would say that any book I've ever read does mention that MVD not uncommon in the breed (I know it's supposed to be nearly 100% by 10 years old but Mindy and the very few older dogs I know (maybe 3 in total) do not have it). Also any books I've read mention that Cavalier's suffer from both large and small dog problems (hips and patellas). I was aware of MVD 11 years ago when we got Mindy although not how widespread it was (maybe it wasn't then?). I've not read much about SM other than on the internet but really you expect a small dog to live nearly as long as you would have a child in your home. If I'm going to share my home with another being for 10+ years (god willing) I'm going to do some research first.

I don't know about puppy lemon laws here in Canada but I do know that after having a dog in my house I doubt I could send it back so it's somewhat a moot point for most I suppose. A couple in my puppy class have a puppy that they got from a pet store. It had parvo. The pet store owner offered to take it back and "treat" it when contacted but the couple essentially said "you must be joking"!

Cathy T
31st October 2009, 02:15 AM
I hear what you're saying Kathy. We are on this board because we are genuinely concerned and, one might say, obsessed with our dogs :rolleyes: The general pet owning population is not. Members on this board will be aware of SM.....the general Cavalier buying population will not.

I always thought "AKC" meant something....I've come to realize it doesn't. The general pet buying population thinks that it is a good endorsement, as far I'm concerned it doesn't mean diddly squat.

I'm sorry your breeder was so negtive...they are obviously in denial. I am grateful that my breeder was been so supportive through our various issues. Not everyone has that benefit...but they should. We had a breeder speak at our club and I loved her line about finding a breeder "Your breeder shoud be a birth to death breeder, you should be able to call your breeder and ask questions"

You're right about the majority of Cavalier breeders and their ignorance. Please note that I am not saying "reputable" Cavalier breeders. Our backyard breeders now outnumber our respected breeders. It wasn't that way 7 years ago.



Some breeders claim champion lines if they can find 1 in the last 8 ancestors-- to me champion lines would mean sire and or dam were finished champions.


Absolutely!!! That is their big selling point....championship lines...and all that means is somewhere back in time there was a champion in that line.

Here in the States....if you see a Cavalier puppy with champion lines for $800....run as fast as you can, there is definitely something wrong there.



I replied point by point and, as I read it over, it does not have a friendly tone. That is NOT my intent!


Sandy...I think Kathy was saying her post did not have a friendly tone. Kathy, what I read wasn't an unfriendly tone but a passionate tone.



I am not particularly in the 'know'


You are far too modest Sandy :)

antigone
31st October 2009, 03:45 AM
I DID mean that what I had written didn't sound very friendly and that was not my intent. Levi started scratching tonight and I didn't realize how really stressed out I am about him. I just started crying and holding him. It didn't seem to worry him that I was crying. He licked me on the nose and then tried to get me to feed him something. He is hungry all the time from the steroids. It has been a little over three weeks since his surgery and I know that he couldn't possibly be healed. Maybe he was just hurting from his surgery. I don't know. I was writing that last thing and watching him. Sent it off and he scratched some more and tears just started squirting out of my eyes. I don't think I have ever had such sudden and dramatic crying.

So I do know I am stressed out and that is probably why what I wrote did not sound friendly to me. I tried to preface it by noting that it didn't but evidently I didn't even make that clear.

I was really just trying to speak about the general level of ignorance and deception in the puppy market here. The people who buy puppies don't know anything and a lot of the people who call themselves breeders don't know anything either. Except how to keep cranking out the puppies and grabbing up the money. It is sick and sad.

I do believe that it will never stop unless there is a two pronged approach. The general public needs to be educated and ethical breeders need to "self police." The ethical breeders could form a set of clear and scientific standards for testing and breeding and then refuse to certify anyone unless those standards were met. Somewhat like how doctors are licensed. Sure, there are a few bad doctors but the majority are held to standards by their peers. If this happened, the careless and deceptive breeders would be driven out of business. NOT being certified would be a sign that the breeder could not be trusted.

Instead of that, there are all these secrets. It is impossible to educate the general public without being accused of breeder bashing. Well, a very large percentage of the so-called breeders in this country DO need to be bashed. Right now, tonight, I would like to bash anybody who calls him/herself a breeder but is, in all reality, just a cruel criminal thief. I would like to bash people who lie about testing and who think that Champion lines are an excuse to get away with ANYTHING.

BTW, Levi DOES have Champion lines. That is what would be so ironically funny...if it weren't just so very, very sad.

Kathy

tara
31st October 2009, 04:40 AM
Kathy,

I can "hear" the pain, frustration and desperation in your post. I just wanted to let you know how very sorry I am that you're going through this. And also how sorry I am that Levi has had to suffer. You are going through something I would not wish on anyone. I can't imagine what it's like to watch your dog suffer in pain.

This may sound selfish, but I hope I never have to know what you're going through. I'm sending positive thoughts to both you and Levi. Hang in there, you're doing all you can right now.

Tara

WoodHaven
31st October 2009, 05:06 AM
I DID mean that what I had written didn't sound very friendly and that was not my intent. Levi started scratching tonight and I didn't realize how really stressed out I am about him. I just started crying and holding him. It didn't seem to worry him that I was crying. He licked me on the nose and then tried to get me to feed him something. He is hungry all the time from the steroids. It has been a little over three weeks since his surgery and I know that he couldn't possibly be healed. Maybe he was just hurting from his surgery. I don't know. I was writing that last thing and watching him. Sent it off and he scratched some more and tears just started squirting out of my eyes. I don't think I have ever had such sudden and dramatic crying.

So I do know I am stressed out and that is probably why what I wrote did not sound friendly to me. I tried to preface it by noting that it didn't but evidently I didn't even make that clear.

I was really just trying to speak about the general level of ignorance and deception in the puppy market here. The people who buy puppies don't know anything and a lot of the people who call themselves breeders don't know anything either. Except how to keep cranking out the puppies and grabbing up the money. It is sick and sad.

I do believe that it will never stop unless there is a two pronged approach. The general public needs to be educated and ethical breeders need to "self police." The ethical breeders could form a set of clear and scientific standards for testing and breeding and then refuse to certify anyone unless those standards were met. Somewhat like how doctors are licensed. Sure, there are a few bad doctors but the majority are held to standards by their peers. If this happened, the careless and deceptive breeders would be driven out of business. NOT being certified would be a sign that the breeder could not be trusted.

Instead of that, there are all these secrets. It is impossible to educate the general public without being accused of breeder bashing. Well, a very large percentage of the so-called breeders in this country DO need to be bashed. Right now, tonight, I would like to bash anybody who calls him/herself a breeder but is, in all reality, just a cruel criminal thief. I would like to bash people who lie about testing and who think that Champion lines are an excuse to get away with ANYTHING.

BTW, Levi DOES have Champion lines. That is what would be so ironically funny...if it weren't just so very, very sad.

Kathy

My two that have SM have a champion sire with dual champion grandsire.

Bet
31st October 2009, 01:44 PM
Karlin ,could it be ,with your permission answer Norma Inglis on her remarks on the Cavalier Chat Forum.?

Yes I do live about 4 miles from Lanark where the Scottish Cavalier Champ Show was held,about 2 weeks ago, passed by ,going for our Shopping in Lanark,but since I had been at it for past 2 years ,didnt see the point of going again .

It was 2 years ago when I went to the Show , I first noticed how the appearance of the Cavaliers has changed from when we did a little bit of showing in the late 80's early 90's.

In my opinion ,many now have Smaller Heads, Shorter Legs ,and Longer Backs,is this due to the Minaturization that Dr C Rusbridge, mentioned recently on her Veterinary- Neurological Web Site.

Also could I comment about N Ingle's remarks about if I had gone to the Show I could have spoken with Ann French ,the Cardiologist, that also would have been a wasted journey to the Show ,since she is another of the Experts I have spoken to on the Phone about the MVD Problem afflicting our lovely Breed.

In fact she got some of the Cavaliers's Pedigrees suffering from Heart Trouble.

Finally could I include in this Post the mention of Carol(Fowler) and the mention of her campaign

www.cavaliercampaign.com

This can be seen 0n the K9 Magazine.

I never could have tackled a Web Site like what Carol has done, she has done more in the past 6 years than what I ever accomplished in the Past 20 years, .

Even when our Beloved B/T Becky was diagnosed with Epilepsy ,and I knew that in her Pedigree Back- Ground ,there had been Epilepsy, and got in touch with Dr M, Willis the Geneticist, he asked for the Pedigrees I had ,then phoned me back ,advising me to contact her Breeder .

This I did only to have the word Bull Manure ,but it was'nt Manure that was used ,screamed at me!!

RodRussell
31st October 2009, 03:26 PM
This I did only to have the word Bull Manure ,but it was'nt Manure that was used ,screamed at me!!

Now, now, Bet. Wait for the death threats and the bodily harm threats. Bull manure, I can handle (as long as I don't have an itchy nose). But the middle-of-the-night phone calls from drunk Cavalier breeders, threatening me, that's when I know that progress is being made!

Bet
31st October 2009, 04:47 PM
Thanks Rod, did you ever think we'd be on the same side !!!

I really do think I have struck a raw nerve, Sorry Folks about all this ,but in case you are wondering about my Comments in this weeks Dog World ,.

It was mentioned in the DW Cavalier Breed Notes that at the Lanark Cavalier Champ Show, that there were 73 Cavaliers Heart Tested and found to have no Heart Murmur.

I made the comment that ,I did'nt know the ages of those Cavaliers ,but did hope that the Recommendations of the UK CKCS Club Breeding Guidelines ,and the advice from the Researchers into the MVD Problem in our Breed would be being followed,if those Cavaliers were under 2.5 years of age, that is ,not to Breed from Cavaliers till they are 2.5 years of age ,also if possible ,the Health Status of their Parents is known about,

This is so that the early onset of the MVD in Cavaliers can be being held back to a later age before it appears.

As I have mentioned , here in Britain ,50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age,that means ,probably there will be 100,000 Cavaliers living at that age to-day in Britain, put another way, 50,000 Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 .

As was recently said by the Cardiologist at the UK CKCS CLUB's AGM ,this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

Margaret C
31st October 2009, 04:49 PM
Now, now, Bet. Wait for the death threats and the bodily harm threats. Bull manure, I can handle (as long as I don't have an itchy nose). But the middle-of-the-night phone calls from drunk Cavalier breeders, threatening me, that's when I know that progress is being made!


No death threats yet for me, but a regional club chairman has threatened to punch me, while a former friend wanted to stand in the queue for her turn.

Malcolm Burley,Janet Ireland, Angela Baker were all threatened back in the 1990s because they talked about their SM dogs. It is par for the course if anyone talks about the health issues in cavaliers.
Kathy has probably received her nasty emails from exactly the same people that were in action then, and for the same reason. They do not want people to know they have been breeding from dogs with SM.

I have received more verbal abuse and vague threats of legal action than bodily violence, and of course there was also a SGM.

My favourite accusation, from one of the best known abuse writer, is the 'you are mad' one. This has been used against UK and USA breeders, pet owners with concerns about cavaliers from certain lines, and health campaigners for over a decade.
A good example is.......

" perhaps you need ' professional ' help to open your mind... and come to terms with your guilt. I think you're a very sick, obsessed and embittered person"
HOW DARE YOU......features a lot in her private hate correspondence too.

We have a nice collection of selected gems from this cavalier carer. I'm sure others will recognise her style.

Bet
31st October 2009, 05:12 PM
Margaret ,it was great to read your Post, I have never said this before ,but now I think I can , I have already received an Apology about 3 weeks ago about what was being said about me, and also have Printed off all the Statements made about me.

Just felt that at some time they maybe could come in useful

What is it with some of those certain few Cavalier Breeders that they are desperate to try and gag us Cavalier Folk who trying to improve the Health of the Cavalier Breed that we love so much,I am sure their Antics must be an Eye Opener to other Cavalier Folk who are reading their Posts.

They will never stop us now ,but what are those Cavalier Breeders Scared of, are they still living in the By Gone Times when the Cavalier Health Problems were being swept under the Carpet ,but thanks to you, Margaret, Karlin ,and Carol those days are now long gone.

It's the Cavaliers and their Owners who are going to benefit.

Bet
31st October 2009, 05:29 PM
Margaret, just read your Post again,I sure do recognize the Style, ,Heres me thinking that the Men in White Coats would soon be coming to Take me Away.

Margaret C
31st October 2009, 05:50 PM
I was really just trying to speak about the general level of ignorance and deception in the puppy market here. The people who buy puppies don't know anything and a lot of the people who call themselves breeders don't know anything either. Except how to keep cranking out the puppies and grabbing up the money. It is sick and sad.

I do believe that it will never stop unless there is a two pronged approach. The general public needs to be educated and ethical breeders need to "self police." The ethical breeders could form a set of clear and scientific standards for testing and breeding and then refuse to certify anyone unless those standards were met. Somewhat like how doctors are licensed. Sure, there are a few bad doctors but the majority are held to standards by their peers. If this happened, the careless and deceptive breeders would be driven out of business. NOT being certified would be a sign that the breeder could not be trusted.

Instead of that, there are all these secrets. It is impossible to educate the general public without being accused of breeder bashing. Well, a very large percentage of the so-called breeders in this country DO need to be bashed.

I think that when the two Dog Reviews are published there will be changes in the UK. Rules will be imposed because so many dog breeders have shown that they cannot self regulate. There will be loopholes, and some breeders will use that wriggle room to avoid doing what is right for the dogs, but it will still be an improvement on what we have now.

It would be good if the KC & breed clubs would find some backbone and make club members breed in a responsible manner. Then there could be an advertising campaign to educate pet owners to buy a KC registered dog, from a breed club member, because then you really would be buying from the best.

I would like to see every breeder have a 'mission statement' and that would be to breed the healthiest puppies possible in each litter.
Everything else, size, shape, pigment, markings should be factored in after that one priority. Clever breeders would rise to the challenge and still produce beautiful dogs, because that is what real breeders do.

I wonder how many people breeding now could honestly claim that is their mission statement now?

We hear a lot about another popular phrase 'stakeholders'.....
Pet owners are as much stakeholders in ensuring that cavaliers have a future as any breeder. So use that power to make sure that you have a voice. Don't buy from breeders that don't health test, spend your money supporting those that breed to the protocols and have the paperwork to show it. Tell your breeder when your pet shows up with an inherited illness. Join your local breed club and have a say in what happens ( unless it is one of those clubs that has restricted admission for fear of a 'pet person' takeover ) Write for your club magazines, dog magazines, newspapers. Tell other cavalier owners what you know.
Pet owners can campaign.......... look at Carol Fowler.

For those in the USA, I'm afraid recognition of the SM problem lags way behind that of the UK, but like Kathy you can make yourself heard. Again, join your regional cavalier club. Write about SM in their magazines, check out how much health information they show on their website. Write to the American Kennel Club and the old Cavalier Club to tell them about your dog and ask them what advice they are giving their breeders.
Write to movers & shakers such as Oprah Winfrey, get the PDE film shown on one of the big networks......... Do whatever it takes.

Use your feelings about your SM dog to make things happen.
And if that counts as breeder bashing..........So be it.

antigone
31st October 2009, 06:09 PM
Bet,

That is what I was TRYING to say but said it very badly. Every comment we have about dishonest breeders and how the things they do are making the problems of Cavaliers worse is called breeder bashing. We can't be outraged or full of sorrow about the genetic diseases of our beloved pets, diseases which could have been a thing of the nightmare past if honesty and good science would have been the rule. We can't be outraged by the practices of some people who call themselves breeders (really, the vast majority of people who sell puppies in the US) without being sent hate mail from other people who call themselves breeders.

Evidently, the only thing you have to have to call yourself a breeder is a fertile dog of either sex. There isn't any fixed set of basic standards which anybody must meet to qualify as a breeder. It is, as I tried to say before, as if anybody who could buy a stethoscope on eBay could hang out his/her shingle and call themselves a doctor.

Pet owners who grieve for their pets are considered totally unqualified to speak about what is happening.

If REAL breeders would get it together and establish a set of ethical standards about such things as health tests and accepted breeding practices and then make sure that anyone who joined the organization adhered to those standards, they would have a clear way to be distinguished from the sleazy criminals. As long as ethical breeders are unwilling to do THAT, they are going to have to get used to being accidentally grouped in WITH the sleazy criminals.

If breeders do not like the press they get, it is up to THEM to change how they "regulate" (HA!) breeding. Beating up on people who complain about the state of animal welfare will not change the reputation of breeders. As it is now, all they can do is to lurk around forums like this watching everything that is said and being ready to lob bombs at the people who are already the victims of their own lack of unity and standards.

Ugly. That is all. Ugly. Oh, yeah, and EVIL, too.

Kathy

Karlin
31st October 2009, 06:24 PM
:thmbsup:

And as long as even health representatives to some breed clubs are among the most prominent critics of their nationally-appointed vet health specialists (to the extent of belittling them on international discussion lists :sl*p:), or openly snub scanning programmes, or privately recommend pet buyers ignore their public advice to 'run a mile' from any breeder that does not cardiologist test for MVD, on the basis that their friends have puppies from unscanned parents -- how are pet buyers and those with affected dogs and those breeders trying to find other scanned dogs for their breeding programme supposed to believe that breed clubs are genuine in trying to help resolve these health issues? If your own members, particularly the ones on the national and regional committees, are widely seen to act in this way, why will people ever trust the that the clubs are committed to doing anything? Meanwhile some national health clubs sit around arguing about placing funding to redo the same studies that have been done to try and *disprove* the consistent results that come back, rather than funding new research and broadening existing research to actually move forward rather than run in place (at best). It is utterly ridiculous. Both responsible pet buyers and responsible breeders (many of them small breeders who do not want to rely on the whisper-club of recommendations as to who is really scanning and has appropriate dogs) are left with little reliable advice or guidelines or support.

Without some sort of breeder established programme that absolutely requires proof of compliance to protocols, the situation for breeders and for pet owners will never improve (at least the US has some form of registration for test results with OFA but that doesn't include MRI scans). It looks instead like this may have to be forced on to breeders and backed with consumer protection legislation with real teeth. Please get your own house in order and then I am sure you will see renewed commitment and partnership and participation and support to address these health issues. Because too many are not seen to be doing this, people either are not buying cavaliers at all or thinking why support a supposed good breeder, especially when even the clubs do not have any way of certifying a good breeder or defining one? There are buyers crying out for some sort of club-certified programme that would at least let buyers and other breeders see who is cardiologist/eye/hip/SM testing -- then let people choose who they want in the basis of that as a starting point. If as some breeders consistently argue, the tests don't matter, I am sure breeders have the confidence then to convince some buyers that this is the case? But why effectively make everyone who does work hard in this way hide that they do so? There is enormous pressure to keep everyone at the level of the lowest common denominator.

Brian M
31st October 2009, 06:31 PM
:thmbsup:

cavs r us
31st October 2009, 07:39 PM
There's no question that show dogs of today look different than dogs of yesterday. I think it has more to do with the preference of judges.


oh boy, that was something I have been noticing, too. My boy looks very much like the first cavalier champion, Daywell Roger (amount of feathering, head shape, leg length, angling of shoulders, hocks, etc.), but I don't see those type dogs winning either. The type of dogs winning today has a much different look.

Oreo
31st October 2009, 07:45 PM
Pet owners who grieve for their pets are considered totally unqualified to speak about what is happening.

If REAL breeders would get it together and establish a set of ethical standards about such things as health tests and accepted breeding practices and then make sure that anyone who joined the organization adhered to those standards, they would have a clear way to be distinguished from the sleazy criminals. As long as ethical breeders are unwilling to do THAT, they are going to have to get used to being accidentally grouped in WITH the sleazy criminals.

If breeders do not like the press they get, it is up to THEM to change how they "regulate" (HA!) breeding. Beating up on people who complain about the state of animal welfare will not change the reputation of breeders. As it is now, all they can do is to lurk around forums like this watching everything that is said and being ready to lob bombs at the people who are already the victims of their own lack of unity and standards.

Kathy

:mexwav:

This is too well stated not to be repeated at least one more time. Kathy, could I have permission to crosspost this in another forum (in the future) if need be?

WoodHaven
31st October 2009, 07:45 PM
oh boy, that was something I have been noticing, too. My boy looks very much like the first cavalier champion, Roger Daywell (amount of feathering, head shape, leg length, angling of shoulders, hocks, etc.), but I don't see those type dogs winning either. The type of dogs winning today has a much different look.

Your cavalier looks like this?? Ch Daywell Roger?

http://www.home.no/cavaliernett/1daywell.jpg

I'd love to see a picture

cavs r us
31st October 2009, 08:40 PM
Your cavalier looks like this?? Ch Daywell Roger?

http://www.home.no/cavaliernett/1daywell.jpg

I'd love to see a picture

He is much closer to that "type" than he is to the ones you see getting put up today.

WoodHaven
31st October 2009, 08:53 PM
He is much closer to that "type" than he is to the ones you see getting put up today.

Daywell Roger was a very clean faced, minimally ticked, shorter loined, dark eyed, dog....(all good things, even today) His head looked decent from the picture, but there is no way I'd guess lay of shoulder of a fully coated dog from a picture.
There is maybe one breeder I know, that 'may' have gotten her hands on this boy to say whether or not he was structurally sound. She is 92, I believe and lives in Canada.

cavs r us
31st October 2009, 09:33 PM
I wish there were more photos of these foundation dogs out there. I can find so little, and I'd love to research far more about them.

WoodHaven
31st October 2009, 09:37 PM
I wish there were more photos of these foundation dogs out there. I can find so little, and I'd love to research far more about them.

Some breeders do have some amazing pictures of dogs from the 40's.
Here is a website that gives some names of foundation dogs.
http://www.vintagecavaliers.net/html/vintage_cavaliers_-_breed_hist.html

Ruth
31st October 2009, 10:42 PM
I am making an unashamed plug here and hope it is in order but a CD I compiled of photographs of early dogs is on the Cavalier Clubs website here .....
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/pay/cavshop.html it is called Cavalier King Charles Spaniels Of The Past and costs £10 plus p&p. The £10 goes to Cavalier Health Research.

Forgot to add once you have clicked on the above links, click on Buy Books. You can also view a sample page.

sins
31st October 2009, 11:03 PM
I bought that a while ago and I absolutely loved it. Well done Ruth, it's really something worth preserving.It would make a marvellous stocking filler for any cavalier lover this Christmas.
Sins

Ruth
31st October 2009, 11:06 PM
Thanks Sins. Volume 2 is in progress at the present time and will be available to coincide with the Blenheim Palace Show next August. Again all proceeds to Cavalier Health Research so I hope it sells out!!

Cathy T
1st November 2009, 12:59 AM
Wow....I bet that has some fascinating pictures!! Ruth, I love when you post....because I get to see that dirty face in your avatar....cracks me up every time :D

cavs r us
1st November 2009, 01:12 AM
Ruth, thank you for that link and I will be buying it! I look forward to studying those pics and pedigrees.

RodRussell
1st November 2009, 01:19 AM
Thanks Rod, did you ever think we'd be on the same side !!!

Bet, I knew that if I waited a while, you'd be back.

Bet
1st November 2009, 09:32 AM
Sure AM ,Rod, with so many regrets about what I had believed and said in the Past.

To Pauline, thanks so much for your support,.

At the moment on the Cavalier Chat Forum there are a Few behaving like a Bunch of WEANS, some are Scots, this is a Scots Word ,so I dont have to Translate it!

Kathy I have been reading your Posts ,and I do so agree with what you are trying to get across.

You will have realized by now that you are not alone in your views. Times have changed , we Cavalier Pet Owners are just not afraid any more to speak out about the Problems affilcting our Cavalier Breed.

I'm not certain ,but are there other Breeds , whose Pet Owners are now beginning to speak out about their Particular Breed Health Problems.

Could I mention, Kathy, if you could go to

www.cavaliercampaign.com

There you will see what Carol ,has done and is continuing to do.

Karlin
1st November 2009, 12:09 PM
Here's a concern:

It is clear that far too many breeders and people who are very involved on discussion lists and with breed clubs STILL are not aware of even the most basic steps that have been taken by national and international clubs on health issues, STILL are debating issues that in some cases no longer even exist, STILL are woefully poorly informed about the current state of research, what their own clubs are doing, what is being proposed.

That returns us to the same old issue -- if breeders are concerned about their image, what are their clubs doing to combat it? What are their representatives on their regional and national clubs doing? How many of those breeders on those committees and clubs cardiac test? MRI? How many health reps do? If not, why not? If they don't, if the clubs don't fundraise and support health research but only send a few random members off to argue on discussion lists, then what proof of any commitment to health is there? How is the average puppy buyer supposed to believe that clubs or breeders care when we cannot even find a basic list of breeders who do some basic health screening, when we do go looking for puppies? Would clubs do a survey of committee members and see where each stands? Will they explain why they feel there shouldn't be a public list of the sort that some have tried to set up that would enable breeders to list what they do and with which dogs? Will breeders not go ask their clubs why they themselves are unaware of key developments and even, basic information and research results on SM and MVD? In the age of the internet why do they not have more links to current research and more basic briefing documents on their websites?

Only this past week it was clear some breeders who are very vocal on SM, some of whom regularly have had negative things to say about researchers and scanning and concerns about breeders -- were not even aware that there is a list of dogs scanned on the UK Club site. This list now features hundreds of dogs from breeders and pet owners internationally, and has been there for over HALF A DECADE now!! :sl*p: Several breeders reacted with shock and indignation when the UK scanned dogs list was mentioned as Kathy noted -- they questioned whether it existed and implied if so, it seemed to be some evil plot (from pet owners, was the subtext...). More welcome was at least one person's interest in including their own dogs -- but what huge gaps in education and leadership from the national clubs if breeders of long standing remain unaware of this list!

Sheesh. This is why so many of us are tired of being told any concern at all abut health issues, breeders and dogs is not our business. What kind of vacuum of self-indulgent ignorance do some of these people live in (the ones unaware of the list still, years on, and implying such a list was a bad thing)? Do they NEVER read any posts except their own friends' posts on SM (god forbid they should learn something new...)? Do they never look at any of the other club's websites, particularly the UK Club's which has consistently had the most information on ongoing SM research (it sure seems pet owners take more interest in club websites than club members and are more familiar with the contents)? Do they simply wish to remain this clueless, as it serves their ability to non-debate to their hearts' content? How dare they then tell owners with affected dogs that 'there is SM and then there is SM', as one did last week upon hearing of a confirmed diagnosis (I kid you not) -- apparently suggesting that it isn't really anything for the owner to worry about? On the other hand, what better evidence than such a breathtakingly arrogant statement to indicate that it is apparently fine with these people to breed dogs with serious disease as long as the dog isn't showing pain that they can see. Would these same people say to a friend with a tumour, "Well, there is cancer and then there is cancer"?

The only conclusion that can be drawn from some a statement is that some feel it is OK to normalise ill health (just as MVD has in many circles now become so unworthy of remark that when dogs of only 6 or 7 are heart-murmur free, breeders post this news in excitement). I cannot think any parent would be happy living with the knowledge that their child had syrinxes, a grievously abnormal state of health. Regardless of whether there are any external signs of discomfort at the time of a scan, those who care about the affected patient, be it a parent with a child or an owner with a dog, must live with a potential pain time bomb every day of the remainder of that patient's life, always worried that what is latent will become debilitating. It is opinions like this, expressed on public lists, that make people wonder about how committed breeders are to addressing these health issues. I and many others don't care that sometimes SM has painful symptoms and sometimes it does not; that some cavaliers with heart murmurs at 5 live to age 10 or even 14 and some die in hideous pain at age 6. We want you to get your collective act together, and pressure your clubs and committee members and fellow breeders to show they care about more than organising dog shows.

There are many great individual breeders and brave committee members trying hard to preserve a future for the breed and push clubs in responsible directions. Those of you need to find each other and work together for change just as many pet owners and owners of health-affected dogs are doing. If you don't get the committees and clubs to work towards the goals you want then the entire profession of breeding will continue in disrepute. And you WILL end up regulated from outside.

Bet
1st November 2009, 01:44 PM
Can I thank Karlin from the bottom of my Heart for what she has just Posted.

I will be going for a Coffee shortly ,how good it will taste.

I can only speak for my-self ,but the passed few days have been a bit Grim for me because of the Vindictive ,Venomous Posts directed at me.

What Karlin has described when any of us Cavalier Pet Owners speak ,as some Cavaliers Breeders think ,out of turn, to put it mildly ,we are Hammered.

As some of us know ,we are told ,what business is it of ours,that at the Moment Many Cavalier Breeders are feelig Vulnerable and Insecure .

Well my answer to that Statement ,is WELL TOUGH!!!

Where were many of the Cavalier Breeders who now Profess to Love our Cavalier Breed,when the MVD was first recognized as becoming a Serious Health Issue for Cavaliers,at least 20 years ago,but they are now saying they are doing what they can about it.

Is this a case of Shutting the Stable Door after the Horse has Bolted.?

I won't repeat again about the Cardiologist's Comments about this ,. The Health Representative of a Regional CKCS CLUB , made such Scurrilous Comments about him on a Cavalier List on the Internet,that I could'nt be part of that Club when the Health Representative had such Views about a Heart Expert who is trying to help in the Battle against the MVD Problem that I had no choice but to resign from that Club.

As Karlin has said, why can't there be a Publc List of Cavalier Breeders who carry out Health Tests on their Cavalier Breeding Stock, this would save the Humiliation of some Prospective Cavalier Buyers being given abusive replies when they ask to see a Health Certificate from the Cavalier Breeder .

I know the same lame old excuse is always trotted out by some Cavalier Breeders ,that the Health Tests are for their benefit ,to know about their Breeding Stock, but it's not, it surely is for the benefit of the Cavalier Pet Buyer to know that the Cavalier they are interested in buying, the Cavalier Breeder has the concern of the Health Problems of the Cavalier Breed.

Finally ,I do hope that at the forth coming UK CKCS CLUB AGM ,there will be a Proposal put forward ,that there should now be a Publc List of Cavalier Breeders who are carrying out Health Tests, for SM and MVD,so that the Prospective Cavalier Buyers will know which Cavalier Breeder to go to.

I know that all the Health Tests in the World won't guarantee that a Cavalier Puppy won't suffer from a Health Problem in the Future, but at least the Cavalier Buyer will know that they are dealing with a Cavalier Breeder who is trying their best for the Future of our Lovely Breed.

antigone
1st November 2009, 09:34 PM
:mexwav: :thnx: :lotsaluv: :pi*no:

Three cheers to Karlin and Bet and Margaret and Carol and Rod and Brian and Karen and Oreo and Mark and..OMG, I will mess this up because I can't go back and put in all of your names and I am sorry that I have left your name off this list...but BRAVO to all of you who are standing up and saying, "NO MORE!!!" There have to be enough of us that we could start our own "subversive" list of breeders that test. Maybe? In any event BRAVO! You have my deepest gratitude and respect for all that you do and how strongly you stand up for Cavaliers and their owners. The thing nobody seems to understand is that you are standing up for RESPONSIBLE breeders, also. The RESPONSIBLE breeders should be deeply grateful to you all.

As I told them when discussing the list of breeders that have posted their names of the MRI list, I KNOW that a clear MRI at 2 years may not be a clear MRI at 4 years. That the list of breeders that have had their dogs tested does NOT include the results of the testing. That nobody (now) can guarantee that they will not produce a puppy free of SM or MVD. But I am certainly going to trust a breeder that has tested and is willing to show me the results. I am NEVER going to get another puppy from someone who hasn't tested or will not show me the results of testing. That the only people I think I could ever trust are people who are willing to be transparent about their breeding and business practices. And that is EXACTLY what I tell anybody who asks me about Cavalier puppies. Many of you have been saying this for a LONG time. I just didn't hear it before I got Levi. The cabal of arrogant and ignorant and deceptive breeders does not want anyone to hear it. BUT we can make sure that more and more people DO hear it. People do not have to test or screen (yet) but sooner or later, they will find that nobody will feel safe buying their puppies if they don't test.

Every puppy deserves a good home even if the puppy does have an inherited disease and I am glad that Levi has (I think, anyway) a good home. But people who know that the puppy has a disease and have the resources to adopt it and care for its illness will be able to provide much better homes for that puppy. Nobody should take on this kind of responsibility blind to the difficulty. It is evil and it is cruel to puppies and the people who love them.

Poor Levi could only be a show dog in a show that wanted to point out the faults in Cavalier appearance and health. But I love him dearly and I have been able to find ways to care for him. How dare people think that only the most beautiful show dogs have worth? All animals and all people deserve to be born healthy and that is not going to happen without all of you and your work. How DARE somebody be hateful and ugly to people who are working for basic animal rights and basic human rights?

Kathy

diddy
2nd November 2009, 10:18 AM
:mexwav: Well said Kathy.

Bet
2nd November 2009, 10:30 AM
Kathy, Thank You for your comments, I do appreciate them so much.

You mentioned the word Ugly, dare I say this, but are some Folk Ugly on the Inside .