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Bet
5th November 2009, 12:07 PM
The Headlines in this week's Dog World mentions the Long Awaited and in some quarters Dreaded Report by the APGAW Committee.

That the Committee has concluded that there is a Serious Problem with the Health and Welfare of Pedigree Dogs ,and that further measures should be implemented to improve the situation.

This Recommendation is so sensible ,particularly for our lovely Cavalier Breed,

That NO DOG should become a Champion unless it has been Health Screened for Diseases known to be Associated with the Breed,and Proof of that Produced.

This could be so simple to be carried out.

The Cavalier's Owner have a Current Heart Certificate and MRI Scan Certificate to show that those Health Tests have been done, .

It is the Cavalier Champions who will be getting most used in Cavalier Breeding Programs ,if they are suffering from MVD or SM , will have the greatest chance of spreading those two diseases most through-out the Cavalier Breed.

The Judge only needs to ask to see those Certificates ,before awarding the Cavalier his or her TITLE.

NO Health Certificate ,NO TITLE!

Bet
5th November 2009, 03:45 PM
Karlin,

OH DEARIE ME, I have just been challenged once more ,could you allow me to answer it here please.

I think the saying is, Once more into the Breach Dear Friends.

The question asked of me was, would I stop Folk Breeding Cavaliers I think is how it was Phrased.

My answer is ,definitely YES, if the Cavalier Breeders are not prepared to carry out Health Tests for SM and MVD.

I think my views about this for the MVD afflicting the Cavalier Breed have been well known about for the Past 20 years.

Now that SM has appeared on the Scene for the Cavalier Breed ,my answer is the same for that Insidious Disease.

I will even go further and say ,for me , I would far rather see a Smaller Gene Pool, but that Gene Pool has only Healthy Cavaliers ,who will have the chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives in it, than what is happening to to-days' Cavaliers.

Even in the article advertising about the Pedigree Dogs Exposed TV Film to be Broadcast in America 10 -12- 09,8:pm,ET/PT,there is mention about the wee Cavalier writhing in agony because of a Brain Condition

This has now been stated by the APGAW Committee ,is because the Cavalier Heads are too Small for their Brains.

That ,the Article goes onto say , many Dogs are Molded purely for their looks and success in the Show Ring.

I wonder what America will make of the PDE Program?

WoodHaven
5th November 2009, 05:42 PM
Karlin,

OH DEARIE ME, I have just been challenged once more ,could you allow me to answer it here please.

I think the saying is, Once more into the Breach Dear Friends.

The question asked of me was, would I stop Folk Breeding Cavaliers I think is how it was Phrased.

My answer is ,definitely YES, if the Cavalier Breeders are not prepared to carry out Health Tests for SM and MVD.

I think my views about this for the MVD afflicting the Cavalier Breed have been well known about for the Past 20 years.

Now that SM has appeared on the Scene for the Cavalier Breed ,my answer is the same for that Insidious Disease.

I will even go further and say ,for me , I would far rather see a Smaller Gene Pool, but that Gene Pool has only Healthy Cavaliers ,who will have the chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives in it, than what is happening to to-days' Cavaliers.

Even in the article advertising about the Pedigree Dogs Exposed TV Film to be Broadcast in America 10 -12- 09,8:pm,ET/PT,there is mention about the wee Cavalier writhing in agony because of a Brain Condition

This has now been stated by the APGAW Committee ,is because the Cavalier Heads are too Small for their Brains.

That ,the Article goes onto say , many Dogs are Molded purely for their looks and success in the Show Ring.

I wonder what America will make of the PDE Program?

NO Bet -- this was the question. No one challenged you. You were asked a simple yes or no question.

"Bet, would you like it if EVERYONE stopped breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels? One word answer, please, “Yes” or “No”". You answered YES and now everything makes sense.

Margaret C
5th November 2009, 05:48 PM
NO Bet -- this was the question.

"Bet, would you like it if EVERYONE stopped breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels? One word answer, please, “Yes” or “No”". You answered YES and now everything makes sense.

This is really unfair.

Bet answered.....definitely YES, if the Cavalier Breeders are not prepared to carry out Health Tests for SM and MVD.

Nobody has the right to demand that anyone answer a question on a complex situation in one word.

I think that my answer would probably be the same if breeders were content to carry on breeding cavaliers that would suffer.

WoodHaven
5th November 2009, 05:57 PM
This is really unfair.

Bet answered.....definitely YES, if the Cavalier Breeders are not prepared to carry out Health Tests for SM and MVD.

Nobody has the right to demand that anyone answer a question on a complex situation in one word.

I think that my answer would probably be the same if breeders were content to carry on breeding cavaliers that would suffer.

It was a simple question-- yes or no. Her answer should have been no (unless she WANTS cavaliers to become extinct). I knew she'd not be able to answer the question.

No one demanded she answer the question either way.

Bet
5th November 2009, 06:49 PM
Karlin ,

So sorry about this , when there are such important things happening in the Cavalier World today.

I have already answered their question.

It's a bit like the one asked of a Husband , have you stopped beating your Wife.

If he says NO ,then he must be Beating his Wife, if he answers Yes ,he must have been beating her at one time.

What Childish Antics some Cavalier Folk are getting up to.

Wonder whose great Intellect thought up this Pearl of Wisdom as a Question.

If you have not understood my Reply , I can't make it any Plainer, just read my Previous Post.

You are really making yourselves appear so very Foolish.

As I said at the beginning ,Karlin ,I am so sorry dragging your List into this Pettiness ,but I won't be answering again, I just have far more important things to do with my Time , than waste it answering such Futitle and Childish Questions. !

Bet
5th November 2009, 07:45 PM
I was'nt going to be drawn into any further Arguments ,but this is just say one of the Reasons I did'nt go and see the Cavaliers at the Scottish Championship Show at Lanark a few weeks ago, was, I still have have tears when I see Cavaliers, and it all comes back to me the the Heart Ache we had when some of our Cherished Cavaliers died at a young age because of their Heart Condition,

Ailsa ,7

Sharri 8

Cindy Lou.8

Sweep 4
Koko 9.
Becky 9 Epilepsy.

Yes we have the Memories of our Cherished Mags, who lived to 15,

I will need to stop now ,thinking about all those Belove Cavaliers are making me cry again.

There is a saying from Rudyard Kipling, it goes some-thing like this,

"SISTERS and BROTHERS BEWARE ,

WHEN YOU LET A DOG INTO YOUR HEART TO TEAR."

I sure know what he meant.

Norma Inglis has commented about other Folk going to see Cavaliers and they don't have any now, I am not like that ,still can't bear to see them far less give them a wee Pat.

Why I still am so involved in the Health Of the Cavalier Breed ,is that I hope in a wee way ,by saying Cavalier Breeders should always Health Test their Cavaliers before Breedingfrom them, that other Cavalier Pet Owners won't have the Tears we have had.because of the ill health of their Cavalier Pets.

Margaret C
5th November 2009, 08:34 PM
I have been the target of Bet's campaigning zeal. She was very tenacious and what she said about me at the time was very unfair.
In those days I seldomed answered Bet, for me that seemed the best thing to do.

We have talked about it since, and I'm glad to say we have resolved the issues between us.

I am all for frank & free discussion, and I can get as heated as anybody else, but I find the cold blooded mockery and sneering that Bet is being subjected to on CavalierChat forum completely abhorrent.
How does this advance anybody's argument or point of view?

Bet
7th November 2009, 05:59 PM
Just a thought .

I have been reading through the APGAW Report again , I know I wrote to the APGAW Committee, when I mentioned the serious plight of our Cavaliers because of the MVD Problem afflicting the Breed, I mentioned my thought that before Cavalier Champions are made up to be Champions they should be Health Tested .

I know that there are others in the Dog World Scene of the same opinion.

I wonder if the APGAW Committee have had a think about this ,since this is one of their Recommendations.

It could be quite easily done , the Cavalier Owners only have to have the current Heart and MRI Scan Certificates with them at Cavalier Championship Shows

It will be interesting to see if Professor Sir P Bateson has similar thoughts on this subject, I'd also written to his Committee mentioning this.

kimy27
7th November 2009, 06:47 PM
Bet I would just like to say that although I am just starting to learn about SM and everything that comes with it I think that what you have been saying is very sensible and I don't understand why people are disagreeing with you. Only allowing Cavaliers that do not have SM or other serious health issues be champions sounds like a great idea to me!

Bet
11th November 2009, 10:48 AM
Could I go back to this subject .

The CKCS Breed Standard clearly states that the Stop in Cavaliers should be Shallow.

For many of to-day's Cavaliers they have a Deep Stop.

The APGAW Report mentions that Cavaliers have Brains too Large for their Skulls.

Has this come about because of the alteration in to-days Cavaliers in having a Deep Stop.

Also could I mention that ,

If two Carriers are Mated of a Disease,SM, MVD ,statiscally,

50% of the Litter will be Carriers.

25% of the Litter will be Affected .

25% of the Litter will be OK.

Surely the only answer for our Cavalier Breed ,since it's not known the Genes for CM/SM, and MVD, is for Cavalier Breeders to MRI Scan ,and Heart Test their Cavalier Breeding Stock.

What other way is there to go, if the Cavalier Breed is to be saved.

At the moment it is a Sick Breed, .Nobody can deny this fact.

Jay
11th November 2009, 05:46 PM
Also could I mention that ,

If two Carriers are Mated of a Disease,SM, MVD ,statiscally,

50% of the Litter will be Carriers.

25% of the Litter will be Affected .

25% of the Litter will be OK.


Bet, this in not correct. It is really important to understand that the mode of inheritance relates to the individual, not the group as a whole. Each pairing of egg and sperm is an individual event.

For a single recessive gene mode of inheritance, if both parents carry one recessive and one dominant gene, each puppy has the following:

25% chance of not receiving the recessive gene from either parent;

50% chance of receiving one recessive gene from one parent;

25% chance of receiving both recessive genes from both parents.

This difference is huge. In this situation, it is quite possible that all the puppies in a litter could receive both affected genes and or that none could. (The same holds true for the sex of a puppy. Each puppy has a 50/50 chance of being male or female. That doesn't mean that 1/2 the puppies in each litter will be male and half will be female.)

Looking at the variability of symptoms and age of onset of SM, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there were several "types" of SM, each caused by different genes and/or gene combinations. Research is crucial to finding the answers.

J.

Bet
11th November 2009, 06:43 PM
This Information was given in OUR DOGS to-day.

There is an excellant Article in Dogs Today written by Jemima Harrison,just published,she mentions ,DNA Testing is a Modern Miracle,but there can be Negative Effects to Playing God With Genes.

She mentions ,that the most that can be hoped for to reduce Problems to an acceptible level ,and DNA Testing ,while a wonderful Tool ,will only ever be Part of the Answer.

She also mentions the EBV Scheme,this Article is well worth a Read,

WoodHaven
11th November 2009, 07:08 PM
This Information was given in OUR DOGS to-day.

There is an excellant Article in Dogs Today written by Jemima Harrison,just published,she mentions ,DNA Testing is a Modern Miracle,but there can be Negative Effects to Playing God With Genes.

She mentions ,that the most that can be hoped for to reduce Problems to an acceptible level ,and DNA Testing ,while a wonderful Tool ,will only ever be Part of the Answer.

She also mentions the EBV Scheme,this Article is well worth a Read,

Jemima Harrison is a writer, director and editor-- I didn't know she was a renown geneticist.

Bet
11th November 2009, 07:25 PM
Jemima Harrison is not claiming to be a Geneticist,she has been in touch with other Geneticists,

Dr B Cattanach,
Dr Jeff Sampson,
Dr Cathryn Mellersh,
Biologist ,John Burchard

Put their information into this Article.

Jay
11th November 2009, 07:25 PM
There is an excellant Article in Dogs Today written by Jemima Harrison,just published,she mentions ,DNA Testing is a Modern Miracle,but there can be Negative Effects to Playing God With Genes.

Bet, is there a link to this article?

J.

WoodHaven
11th November 2009, 07:31 PM
Jemima Harrison is not claiming to be a Geneticist,she has been in touch with other Geneticists,

Dr B Cattanach,
Dr Jeff Sampson,
Dr Cathryn Mellersh,
Biologist ,John Burchard

Put their information into this Article.

I have been in touch with other BOARD CERTIFIED Cardiologists -- yet that falls on deaf ears.

You didn't give us any way to see the information-- Just blurted what Jemima said.

Bet
11th November 2009, 07:34 PM
Jay ,do you mean the mention of the Carriers, just do OUR DOGS ,it was in their Forum to- day.

Jemima Harrison's article, was in the Dogs Today magazine I received to-day ,just do up Dogs Today.and you should get it.

RodRussell
11th November 2009, 07:35 PM
...You didn't give us any way to see the information-- Just blurted what Jemima said.

Sandy, if you want to know what the Dog's Today article says, why don't you just read the article, rather than pick apart Bet's notice that the article exists?

WoodHaven
11th November 2009, 07:37 PM
Sandy, if you want to know what the Dog World article says, why don't you just read the article, rather than pick apart Bet's notice that the article exists?

I didn't pick apart anything. She stated Jemima said-- I looked for the information -- didn't see any references to any persons with Doctorates.

Bet
11th November 2009, 07:42 PM
I don't want to be snide ,but Sandy is really showing her ignorance now about not knowing the Geneticists I mentioned.

They live in Britain.

Just enter their names on the Internet ,Sandy, and then you will know who they are.

WoodHaven
11th November 2009, 07:44 PM
Of course you want to be snide-- or you would NOT have said that.

I am at work Bet and not able to peruse the web at will-- didn't find ANY article except this
http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/newsextra/2009/Extra260209/times.htm



What part of this sentence says anything about renown doctors?? It says according to JH DNA testing is a modern miracle- but there can be negative effect...

There is an excellant Article in Dogs Today written by Jemima Harrison,just published,she mentions ,DNA Testing is a Modern Miracle,but there can be Negative Effects to Playing God With Genes.

Not to be snide Bet-- but you stated it as JH's OPINION -unsubstantiated

Bet
11th November 2009, 07:48 PM
Sandy, I was talking about Jemima Harrison's Article in DOGS TODAY Magazine which is published here in Britain.I received my December edition this morning.

Jay
11th November 2009, 07:52 PM
if you want to know what the Dog's Today article says, why don't you just read the article,

I would love too! Please post a link so I know exactly what article is being referred to so that we are talking apple to apples!

I have taken graduate and doctoral level courses in genetics and genetic syndromes. Mode of inheritance is for each individual pairing of egg and sperm, not for groups. You could figure out the stats for a litter of puppies born to two carriers of a recessive gene, but you would still have to incorporate the stats for each individual (puppy) first. What you would end up with would be a bell curve showing no affected puppies (meaning without either copy of the recessive gene) at one end, all affected puppies (meaning double copies of the recessive gene) at the other and a mix of the numbers of puppies carrying one copy of the recessive gene somewhere along the curve depending on the size of the litter. Meaning that your chances of getting a litter with all affected puppies or a litter with all non-carrier puppies is the least likely outcome, but very possible. You will most likely get some combination of affected, carriers and non-carriers.

J.

Bet
12th November 2009, 11:10 AM
Could I just mention this has just appeared in Our Dogs ,where it was mentioned about Carriers, it has just been confirmed that these figures were as I said Statisticly.

Here are further figures, this is about Staffords.

If two L2+HGA or HC Affected Staffords Bred to-gether ,all Pups will be affected

Sire

Dam Offspring

Clear to Clear .100% Clear

Clear to Carrier >50% Clear +50% Carriers.

Clear to Affected > 100% Carriers

Carrier to Clear > 50% Clear +50% Carriers.

Carrier to Carrier > 25% Clear + 25% Affected+ 50 % Carriers

Carrier to Affected > 50 % Carriers + 50% Affected

Affected to Clear >100% Carriers

Affected to Carrier 50% Carriers +50% Affected

Affected to Affected > 100% Affected

I don't know whether this Ratio will apply to our Cavalier Breed once the CM/SM....MVD Genes are found.

Is not at the present time ,for the CM/SM and MVD Problems afflicting Cavaliers ,till those Genes are found, the only course open for Cavalier Breeders ,is to MRI Scan for SM and Heart Test their Cavalier Breeding Stock?