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Clairelou
7th November 2009, 10:01 PM
Prompted by a mention of this by Karen (and Ruby) I did a google and found this, anyone know how this is progressing?

http://cavalierrecreation.webs.com/

Carol Fowler mentions this on her site also.

HollyDolly
7th November 2009, 11:01 PM
Primarily, we need people willing to breed their own Cocker Spaniel to a Papillon. :eek:



Has she got this wrong?

Nanette

Pat
7th November 2009, 11:04 PM
So many things wrong here that I don't even know where to begin.

Here is an anonymous, naive, 23 year old novice dog owner with a poorly written (free) website and a not very well thought out idea and subsequent plan. She is probably a very nice, sincere young lady, but that doesn't mean a thing in this endeavor.

I had cockers in the 70's and 80's, and the many, many problems in that breed caused me to turn to Cavaliers in the late 80's. (And as many of you know, I've been blessed with nine healthy, long-living Cavaliers in the past 20 years.) There are so many more problems in cocker spaniels than were covered in "requirements" for use as breeding stock in this plan. Does this person know anything about inherited DCM in cocker spaniels? Does this person know what DCM even is?? Who passes judgment on the temperament of the stock - only the owner? Why the choice of cockers and paps? Just because one might "guess" that offspring MIGHT look like a (poorly bred) Cavalier......or not. Why would I want a cocker/pap mix? The end result may be some "new" breed (or not) but it's not going to be a Cavalier. Temperament certainly will not be "Cavalier." Why would the owners/breeders of good cocker/pap breeding stock want to cross their animals with another breed? They don't care anything about re-creating Cavaliers. Likely the only people willing to participate would be pet owners with dubious quality animals.

It's as if I decided that humans should explore outer space and I started a project with no knowledge, expertise or background in physics, aerospace engineering, etc. (Not a great analogy, but you get the idea.) No one could even check my credentials because I only give my first name on my free website??!!

If anyone is going to "re-create" the Cavalier, I strongly suspect that it will be experienced breeders.

My intention is not to criticize this unknown person, but to criticize the plan and methodology. I just do not see any merit here at all. It's just like all of the reasoning we hear about designer dogs being more healthy which we know isn't valid. By the way, did you see the advertising on this site for Cavachons, etc.? (On a free site you must accept the advertising.) How is this helping the Cavalier breed?

If I want a chance at having a relatively healthy, long-living Cavalier, I know what to do and who to contact. Never a 100% guarantee, but I've been around long enough and done my homework. I would also consider other breeds - but I wouldn't consider a cocker or a pap!

With all sincerity,

Pat

Pat
7th November 2009, 11:14 PM
Forgot to say that this person needs to understand the difference between "re-creation" and "recreation" or the site will attract folks looking for a resort spa. Attention to detail is critical for a website to be taken seriously. (Consider Rod's Cavalier Health site - which is meticulous - and compare that site to others.)

Pat

EddyAnne
7th November 2009, 11:16 PM
Prompted by a mention of this by Karen (and Ruby) I did a google and found this, anyone know how this is progressing?
I don't think it is progressing at all but on the chance there might be I think it might only involve a handful of Cavalier people. From what I see officially there is absolutely no move towards something like this by any Cavalier Club around the world.

What does appear official and current for MVD and SM/CM is that Clubs "recommend" that breeders use specialist health testing and specialist recommended breeding protocols/guidelines.

Also what appears offical and current is that DNA samples are being collected and sent to find the genes for MVD and SM/CM and to develop cost effective DNA screening tests. DNA samples not used for the genetic study are being stored plus more are being added each day.

Also and being setup is an Estimated Breeding Values (EBV) Program which utilises the current means of testing. When the genes are found then that program will become a Genomic Breeding Values (geBVs) Program where all the stored DNA samples will be tested and the results inputed into the program. In the UK Geneticists involved with this already have gone to the Cavalier Clubs to give talks about the program to the breeders. For some information about this have a look at this webpage on the UK Cavalier Club’s website.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/ebv/call_for_data.html

Facility is being made so that breeders can access the program via a software internet interface, via this link are some screen capture photos which give some more information about the program.
http://www.cavaliercampaign.com/ebv.htm

Meanwhile Cavalier Clubs around the world have got a close eye on this program to see what happens, also so have the UK Kennel Club and some other Breed Clubs as they might like to use such a program for other breeds and their health concerns.
.

EddyAnne
7th November 2009, 11:20 PM
Forgot to say that this person needs to understand the difference between "re-creation" and "recreation" or the site will attract folks looking for a resort spa. Attention to detail is critical for a website to be taken seriously. (Consider Rod's Cavalier Health site - which is meticulous - and compare that site to others.)

Pat
Pat I understand what you mean and Rod's site is an excellent informative site.
.

chloe92us
8th November 2009, 01:50 AM
haha, I thought it was going to be a website about all the fun places we could take our Cavaliers! :rolleyes:

Tania
8th November 2009, 09:30 AM
haha, I thought it was going to be a website about all the fun places we could take our Cavaliers! :rolleyes:
So did I :biggrin:

Clairelou
8th November 2009, 12:56 PM
Didn't think it looked 'official' ;)

EddyAnne
8th November 2009, 01:29 PM
Didn't think it looked 'official' ;)
Talking about 'official', it appears that the EBV Program is officially on hold where it appears that publishing right and legal matters appear to be more important than health matters concerning the breed. I think that in the current climate that things should be sorted out one way or another and the sooner the better.
.

Margaret C
8th November 2009, 01:38 PM
Talking about 'official', it appears that the EBV Program is officially on hold where it appears that publishing right and legal matters appear to be more important than health matters concerning the breed. I think that in the current climate that things should be sorted out one way or another and the sooner the better.
.


This really makes my heart sink. Where did you read it is officially on hold?

EddyAnne
8th November 2009, 02:23 PM
Margaret, I am all for the EBV Program and I hope that what I just posted about legal matters and publishing rights is a load of rubbish.
.

Murphy
8th November 2009, 02:43 PM
I can assure you - it is not. I am not given to posting 'rubbish'.
Elspeth

Catareta
8th November 2009, 02:59 PM
Lol. Cavalier Recreation Project! Thought the same as some of you, thought we were getting a our version of a puppy park like our US friends.


The site looks very unprofessional; by using something like freewebs or the authors particular site..
Have they quoted any specific evidence used in there Project?
No veternairian evidence of this. Or genetic therapy etc...

:crash:

Murphy
8th November 2009, 03:03 PM
When I posted the message I referred to my notes from the last Seminar held in the Spring of this year after the AGM of the Scottish Club.
S Blott was asked the question: when can we expect to have the EBvs available?

In my notes I have written: "S would like EBVs to be available to all, and had considered the prospect of publishing same on a list for breeders. When this was proposed, there arose some legal difficulties over the publication of results which would require owner consent".
'Rubbish' I think not.

I am interested, also, as to how a non-breeder would be able to use such information, since, a single dog's EBV is only of use when combined with the EBV of the bitch to whom it is proposed to mate it.
Elspeth

EddyAnne
8th November 2009, 04:23 PM
Elspeth what you mentioned goes back to Spring. How long does it take to type out a consent form, photocopy it for all then mail them out and/or make the form available as a download on the club's website. Then within a week or two Sarah Blott may have most of the signed consent forms and that is providing if many wanted it so. As I mentioned, I think that in the current climate that things should be sorted out one way or another and the sooner the better.
.

Murphy
8th November 2009, 04:43 PM
I would suggest you put your question to S Blott.
She is an extremely intelligent lady, so, had things been that simplistic, I am sure she would have thought of it.
Elspeth

Bet
8th November 2009, 05:22 PM
EddyAnne,

I was at the same Dr S Blott's Seminar here in Scotland in the Spring as Murphy, and the answer she gave was 2 years. .

Now here's food for thought ,the Kennel Club ,in the Summer made an announcement about their New Genetic Project Unit,and the EBV Research ,which would take around 5 years for results to come through.

Why ,if it is to be for the Cavaliers 2 years hence, was this not discovered before now,surely this should have been known about before the Research work started.

I know when I heard Dr S Blott mention the EBV Scheme,I had heard about the EBV Scheme for Cattle , and I contacted the head of that Department, and was told that the Department had to contact every Farmer in Britain before that EBV Scheme could progress.

So will it be the same for the Cavaliers' EBV Scheme ,will every Cavalier Breeder have to be being contacted before there can be information given out about their Cavaliers' Pedigrees.

I think it's some-thing to do with the DATA PROTECTION ACT.

EddyAnne
8th November 2009, 05:27 PM
I would suggest you put your question to S Blott.
She is an extremely intelligent lady, so, had things been that simplistic, I am sure she would have thought of it.
Elspeth
Elspeth, if there are any problems or if any information is needed regarding the EBV Program then I really do feel that it is the Cavalier Clubs which should be contacting Sarah Blott and then the Clubs to inform their members. Such as like what has happened before.
Example - 3 representatives from the Club went to visit Sarah Blott to discuss the EBV program then members were informed and this was even mentioned on the Club's website as see via this link.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/ebv/feb_09_update.html

Keep in mind that if there are any problems then maybe the Cavalier Clubs might be able to provide some assistance to Sarah Blott in overcoming the problems.
.

EddyAnne
8th November 2009, 05:37 PM
Bet I can see 2 or more years to obtain results from an EBV program but in getting such a program started and running I do not think it would take too long, and to draw up and sign consent forms well I already mentioned that.
.

Margaret C
8th November 2009, 05:45 PM
Anything is possible. Cavalier breeders have just got to want it enough and be prepared to say so.

Bet
8th November 2009, 05:51 PM
EddyAnne ,It's ,I believe the permission from Cavalier Breeders for information from the Cavalier Pedigrees that have to be being given.This is for the Data Protection Act here in Britain not to be broken.

Where on earth would you start to contact all the Cavalier Breeders needed to give their permission for use of their Pedigree information ,some won't be able to be traced, others could be dead, is this not just a mess.

I have just read the Web- Site of theUK CKCS CLUB given by EddyAnne, and noticed the mention that Dr S Blott and her Team are not currently directly involved in Searching for the Genes responsible for SM.

So the question has to be asked, is the Future of our Cavalier Breed depending on Dr C Rusbridge and Penny Knowler, finding the CM/SM Genes.

EddyAnne
8th November 2009, 07:09 PM
Bet I know some things about Data Protection. When I changed to another doctor I simply signed a form and within a few days my new doctor had copies of all my medical files from my previous doctor. As to not finding owners who can sign and give information to the EBV Program, well lack of information would tend to affect the accuracy score and note accuracy on this image.

http://www.cavaliercampaign.com/images/mate-selection3.jpg

Bet I think that most realised that Dr S Blott and her Team are not currently directly involved in Searching for the Genes as they are involved with the EBV Program. The genetics team if you wish I could name each that is involved and on the Club’s website they are mentioned a number of times, but it is they who are involved in finding the genes. When the genes are found then all the stored DNA samples will be tested and the result information passed to Sarah Blott and her EBV team who will then input that information in to the EBV Program, and when that happens the program will then turn in to a Genomic Breeding Values (geBVs) program, This also is mentioned on the Club’s website.

EBV programs have already been used for dogs elsewhere in this world and I wonder if they experienced problems with things like consent and data protection acts.
Example – see an EBV program for Boxers in the Netherlands via this link address.
A long-term follow up study of a birth cohort of boxer dogs in The Netherlands: Genetic and environmental risk factors for diseases
PhD thesis by Marjan van Hagen
August 2004
ISBN 90-393-3818-3
http://137.224.73.223/abg-org/hs/proj/thesis.php?author=144
.

Margaret C
8th November 2009, 07:10 PM
I have just read the Web- Site of theUK CKCS CLUB given by EddyAnne, and noticed the mention that Dr S Blott and her Team are not currently directly involved in Searching for the Genes responsible for SM.

So the question has to be asked, is the Future of our Cavalier Breed depending on Dr C Rusbridge and Penny Knowler, finding the CM/SM Genes.

As far as I know Dr Blott has only ever been involved with the important task of developing a breeding programme for use by cavalier breeders.

The DNA samples sent to her are not for immediate use. They are being stored for when gene tests for SM, MVD, and other conditions are identified. The individual samples will then be tested and those results added to that cavalier's breeding value.

The gene test for SM is being researched in Canada. They rely on DNA supplied through the efforts of Dr Rusbridge & Penny Knowler.

The DNA of older, SM free, cavaliers is particularly important. That is why we need more over five year olds MRI scanned.

EddyAnne
8th November 2009, 07:37 PM
Here it is and note the following which is mentioned at this address and I have also noticed it mentioned elswhere several times.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/ebv/call_for_data.html

"DNA testing can be used to increase the information available for the calculation of breeding values and is particularly useful for providing information about young dogs prior to their use for breeding. Research at the AHT is ultimately aimed at the development of genomic breeding values (geBVs), these will be similar to EBVs but will incorporate information from DNA testing."

"Donate a DNA sample from your dog We are also collecting cheek swab samples from Cavaliers for DNA archiving and for research to develop genomic breeding values for syringomyelia and MVD"
.

Bet
9th November 2009, 10:08 AM
EddyAnne,

I have just come off the Phone having spoken to the Secretary of all Breeds of Cattle here in Britain involved with their EBV Scheme.

Before the EBV information is put on - line ,Pedigrees etc ,because of the Data Protection Act in Britain, I don't know what it's like in other Countries,

The written Permission MUST be obtained from the Owners of the Pedigrees, etc

I can't remember the name of the Professor at Roslin Research Dept,in Scotland,involved in this, but both Dr S Blott and Dr T Lewis ,were involved with him at Roslin ,Dr Lewis told me this himself.

Bet
9th November 2009, 11:05 AM
Just learned that Permission is required from all the Owners of the Dogs/ Bitches behind the the Potential Sire for the EBV Scheme.

I take it ,that means in the Pedigree Back-Ground, how on earth will this ever be obtained.

Is this just about an impossible task?Some owners where-abouts won't be known ,other Owners could be dead.

I don't know how far back in the Cavalier's Pedigree this means,.

This Topic has sure opened up Pandora's Box!

Karlin
9th November 2009, 11:09 AM
But as far as I know this is already the case -- when people go to have a scan done they do sign a release form. The owner of a scanned dog who submits a form is already giving permission by the fact of submission.

Has anyone actually spoken to the researchers working with EBVs or the club or KC on any of these supposed issues? To my knowledge there is no data protection problem or significant legal issues -- nothing of any concern or import -- and I checked with people working closely with this project. The story that there is so far has never been posted by anyone except those stating they have 'heard' this is the case and never with any verification. My understanding is the delays are due to other issues. This could of course have changed since the last time I asked some folks to look into it.

The 'publication of results' is pretty minor. It merely relates to what is stated as the public results of a dog and who has access to this. It is NOT a major legal issue and my understanding is that the delays are due to elements outside Sarah Blott's controlbut nothing directly to do with the research itself.

Rather than to researchers, who often are constrained in what they may say as it isn't their role to discuss the logistics of club/KC impementation, maybe the questions should instead be directed to the Kennel Club and breed club committee? :thmbsup:

It does occur to me though that if the clubs and KC did not check out the basic legal elements of implementing this type of programme (given that they do exist in livestock already) that would be quite extraordinary. And quite extraordinarily stupid. :sl*p:

What a shame that no clear information and updates on this programme is being given either and instead it is endless gossip and rumour. That will not help breeder or public confidence at a time when the KC and clubs are under scrutiny.

Karlin
9th November 2009, 11:25 AM
Bet on the cattle situation, is he not referring to publishing results? There's no intention to have a website or printed table that lists dogs and whole pedigrees etc.

Have no idea what the 'permission of dam/sire of sires' can mean though? Permission for what? Pedigree information is widely, publicly available already both online and from what breeders themselves post. Davis Harwood worked out a 20+ generation pedigree for my Ronnoc dog Jaspar simply using public databses for example.

Bet
9th November 2009, 12:11 PM
Just been speaking to Dr S Blott about this, and was told that they are seeking Legal advice about it.

Karlin
9th November 2009, 12:20 PM
But about what, I don't understand what the issue is about sires or parents of sires from your post? Also have never had them say this was anything that significant. The issue has always been how might the results be made available but that is relatively minor (not necessarily to the stakeholders that all might want to receive it in various forms, but minor in the case of the core need for the research, the results, and the availability of meaningful info for breeders).

Carol Fowler
9th November 2009, 04:35 PM
Hi All

Here's a statement from Sarah Blott, received a few minutes ago. Hope this clarifies things. I've copied and pasted.

“EBVs are calculated for all KC registered CKCS from pedigree information on all dogs and from MRI scan results on those dogs which have been scanned. The pedigree information is in the public domain and is not an issue. The scan results are not in the public domain. Together with the KC we are taking legal advice on whether the publication of EBVs would contravene the Data Protection Act. The area of concern is not necessarily dogs for which we hold scan results but those dogs which have either not been scanned or for which we do not have the scan results. Based on the information we hold we are able to calculate EBVs for these dogs and, in some cases, these dogs will have high risk EBVs. But we may not have permission from the owner to make the EBV publically available. If we need to get consent from all owners then one option is to include in the KC registration application papers a statement that the owner agrees for any calculated EBVs to be made public. Owners would then sign their consent when registering all new puppies. This, of course, does not cover past registrations and we would have to work out a scheme whereby retrospective consent could be given for older dogs.”

Carol

Carol Fowler
9th November 2009, 04:37 PM
Sorry about the mess in my post. How did that happen? Hope you can read Sarah's statement anyway.

Carol

EddyAnne
9th November 2009, 05:06 PM
EddyAnne,

I have just come off the Phone having spoken to the Secretary of all Breeds of Cattle here in Britain involved with their EBV Scheme.

Before the EBV information is put on - line ,Pedigrees etc ,because of the Data Protection Act in Britain, I don't know what it's like in other Countries,

The written Permission MUST be obtained from the Owners of the Pedigrees, etc

I can't remember the name of the Professor at Roslin Research Dept,in Scotland,involved in this, but both Dr S Blott and Dr T Lewis ,were involved with him at Roslin ,Dr Lewis told me this himself.
I just went to a UK Cattle website where I saw that their EBV program has been up and running for years. There was mention that Figures showed Continued Genetic Improvement, and I even read that later they introduced yet more traits in to their EBV program. Due to this it appears that they did NOT have any problems in getting their EBV program up and running, and if they did then they overcame those problems, and if permission were required then they obtained them.

UK Cattle Breeders appear to be quite open about their Cattle's EBVs.
Example and the following from this link address.
http://www.limousin.co.uk/clubs/east_midlands/2008/0419sale.html

East Midlands Limousin Cattle Breeders Club - LIMOUSIN DAY

Champion Male and Overall Champion was BRONTEMOOR BOB (June 06) from Steven Priestley. Sired by SEAVIEW UPSTART by OCEAN and out of BRONTEMOOR TUPPENCE and with an EBV of 31, he sold to the judge Mr Peter Kirton for 4,300gns.

Reserve Champion Male was DINMORE BERNARD from Paul Dawes (May 06) by WILODGE TONKA and out of WINTERCOTT PRIMROSE the product of a successful embryo flush. With an EBV of LM32 he was snapped up by Keith Baxter, Barleston, Nuneaton at 3,600gns. By the same sire Paul Dawes also sold DINMORE BOEING (May 06) this time out of the BROADMEADOWS CANNON sired cow WILODGE PRICELESS. With an EBV of LM32, top suckler producers Messrs CE Hardcastle & Son, Little Ponton, Grantham secured BOEING at 3,100gns.
.

EddyAnne
9th November 2009, 05:11 PM
Carol thanks for that information.
.

Bet
9th November 2009, 05:46 PM
Thanks Carol,

I have been away all after-noon, and just read your Post.

As I understand what Dr S Blott has said,there is no problem with Pedigree Information in the Public Domain

The MRI Scan Results are not in the Public Domain,this is what seems to a Problem, the EBV Team and the Kennel Club are taking Legal Advice on whether the Publication of EBV'swould contravene the Data Protection Act

This could be a Problem, it's OK for Present Day Cavalier Owners signing their consent when Registering new Cavalier Puppies ,but I just do not know how Past Registrations can be being traced to Owners who can not be Traced or have Died..How can retrospective consent be given for Cavaliers further back in a Cavalier Pedigree.

It could be just about impossible.

At least we now know what the hold -up is.

I just don't know how this problem can be over-come

Murphy
9th November 2009, 07:16 PM
Eddy-Anne,
I hope you are now aware that what I posted was not rubbish?
Thank you.
Elspeth

Karlin
9th November 2009, 07:19 PM
It isn't a major problem, Bet. As I understand it this issue has been there for ages and a decision has not yet been made (I can hardly imagine getting a legal opinion would take THIS long unless the Kennel Club lawyers have a huge backlog of work as this question has been before them for months and months now :rolleyes:). The EBVs would be used in the way that has already been publicly described and would be immediately useful to breeders. The legal question is on whether public information would be available on dogs which stated the actual EBV for a dog. In other words whether anyone could obtain an EBV or whether it would only be available in a form that told you whether that dog would be a good match for your bitch or vice versa without the results made public.

chloe92us
9th November 2009, 08:54 PM
Example:
Let's say you have two dogs you are considering breeding from. Dog A has been scanned and the results submitted. Dog B has not been scanned, therefore the results not submitted. Dog A & Dog B, however, will both have an EBV. Because Dog B's MRI is lacking, it may possibly receive a lower EBV than that of Dog A due to the lack of information.

So then the question arises: would it be "legal" to give Dog B an EBV since this dog's owner has never granted any of it's records to research? Is it legal to lower Dog B's EBV because there is no scan information, which could potentially prevent other breeders from using it at stud? Would the owner of the dog then have grounds for legal ramification against the KC/ and or resarchers? These are the questions it sounds like they are looking at, based on S. Blott's statement to Carol Fowler.

Karlin
9th November 2009, 09:19 PM
This is not the issue. The issue is only one of European data protection laws and UK law in this regard, pertaining to releasing data if there's been no sign-off.

A dog will not receive a lower EBV because an MRI hasn't been done (and E stands for 'estimated' anyway, don't forget -- these are all based on best possible information and breeders and breed clubs and the KC knew that when they funded Sarah Blott). The point of EBVs is that MRIs are not needed on a given dog -- enough have been done now to give any dog with an adequate pedigree a sound EBV. The more MRIs are done, particularly on older dogs, the more fine tuned the system becomes. If and when the genes are identified for SM and MVD, they will become very precise. The science behind EBVs is well established. You don't need anyone's permission to create an EBV on a given dog. Its EBV is simply existing fact ans researcers with the database info can do this already. It is whether it can be made publicly available if the particular dog was not scanned and in the database or permission hasn't been given. But as noted the KC could link registration to granting access to EBVs, which makes sense.

All cavaliers are related because they were founded on such limited stock. Hence producing EBVs from the very large number of mRis already done gives a good idea of where any dog fits into the picture in terms of probable risk in mating to another dog. It isn't a guarantee but it is a lot more precise than MRIs as it takes into account family reationships over many generations and running in many directions, not just parents/grandparents.

Breeders have incentive to continue to MRI if they wish to have more precise info on dogs, which in turn creates a greater likelihood of breeding away from this hideous disease. They also have an incentive to be part of an answer. Also if I own a dog from a breeder and I have that dog scanned and submit info, that is still going to have an impact on all related dogs' EBVs. That is in the interest of ALL breeders, the breed, and pet owners.

If a breeder refuses to have EBVs made available for a dog, how many other breeders will use that dog? That is the real question I think.

EddyAnne
9th November 2009, 10:15 PM
Eddy-Anne,
I hope you are now aware that what I posted was not rubbish?
Thank you.
Elspeth
Elspeth what you posted is NOT rubbish and I apologise, but note that I posted I hoped it was rubbish. I was just getting tired of seeing things on hold with the EBV program, and I really do feel that due to the current climate that things should be sorted out one way or another and the sooner the better.

In another post I mentioned some suggestions that might be of help in getting the program up and running. Such as Clubs could contact Sarah Blott to offer assistance from the Clubs and their members. Say like where consent forms are needed and those people are not around the scene anymore maybe someone might know where they are so that they could be contacted and asked if they wanted to sign forms. Maybe even the forums and email lists might be able to help in tracking people down. In the case where someone has passed away maybe a spouse or close relative might be able to be found where they might provide consent permission this after being contacted by a club member who could explain what the EBV program is and the benefit it could provide for the breed.
.

chloe92us
9th November 2009, 10:38 PM
in some cases, these dogs will have high risk EBVs

I interpreted this to mean that dogs without MRI's will have lower EBV's because they have not had an MRI. I see now that's not the case.

I should have said; is it legal to "publish" Dog B's EBV...instead of is it legal to "assign" an EBV to said dog. I had edited it about 5 times as I wasn't saying it how it was intended, and still didn't! :thmbsup:

Bet
10th November 2009, 09:47 AM
I hope I was'nt giving out the wrong message yesterday about the EBV Program, I was at my Cousin's Funeral,and not thinking straight.Then we had to rush Suzy to the Vet when we got back, but she's OK.

I am not against in any way Dr Blott's EBV Scheme, it was just when I read about the hiccup with the Pedigrees I started to wonder.

I know with the Pedigree Cattle , all the Farmers are or have been Members of those different Cattle Breed Clubs, that's why there is no problem in getting permission for the EBV's for Cattle.



Now to get back to Cavaliers in Pedigree Backgrounds,there are Cavalier Owners of Cavaliers born in the 1960's who are around , just checked up ,even the 50's.

Is it 3 or 5 generation Pedigrees that are being talke about.

I would think that 3 generation would be no problem ,but it was there will be relations ,if the owner of the Cavalier has died .

Murphy
10th November 2009, 10:08 AM
[QUOTE=EddyAnne;342376]Elspeth what you posted is NOT rubbish and I apologise, but note that I posted I hoped it was rubbish. I was just getting tired of seeing things on hold with the EBV program, and I really do feel that due to the current climate that things should be sorted out one way or another and the sooner the better.

Thank you Eddy Anne. I accept your apology.

Here is part of S Blott's statement Carol provided yesterday:

" The area of concern is not necessarily dogs for which we hold scan results but those dogs which have either not been scanned or for which we do not have the scan results. Based on the information we hold we are able to calculate EBVs for these dogs and, in some cases, these dogs will have high risk EBVs. But we may not have permission from the owner to make the EBV publically available. "

An unscanned dog, according to CR's protocol, is an automatic 'D' grade.
So, because of lack of Data, on such dogs, the playing field would not be level, so far as published EBVs were concerned.

If an owner has not MRI'd a dog, it must be supposed that they have chosen this route.
In which case, they are not part of the EBV scheme, nor have they given Sarah Blott their permission to include any results from that dog in her research, as those of us who are already scanning have done, by sending her our results.
If these owners had wished their dog's data to be included in the scheme, they would have offered same by now.
It is therefore to be supposed that their permission would not be forthcoming, and so making contact would be a waste of time.
At the moment, there is no law to say that every dog must be included in the scheme.
I hope this explains satisfactorily why 'making contact' would be fruitless.
Elspeth

Bet
10th November 2009, 10:10 AM
Just read Karlin's Post again , and I think I understand the Problem now.

Is this right, it depends on whether the EBV information can be given out ,if no permission has been given about using that particular Cavalier.

Murphy
10th November 2009, 10:53 AM
Just read Karlin's Post again , and I think I understand the Problem now.

Is this right, it depends on whether the EBV information can be given out ,if no permission has been given about using that particular Cavalier.


Correct, Bet. I am so glad Karlin was able to explain it to you.
Elspeth

Bet
10th November 2009, 11:29 AM
Is it the not back to the Basics for the MVD and SM help for the Cavalier Breed at the moment, till the Legal aspects of the EBV Program is sorted out , is for Cavalier Breeders to MRI Scan and Heart Test their Cavalier Breeding Stock, and for Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers ,to be given a Health Certificate ,showing that this has been done.

When you get to the Nitty Gritty, will the ordinary Cavalier Buyer understand really about the EBV Program, but as as sure as Eggs are Eggs ,as the saying goes, they will understand ,if a Cavalier's Parents has been Health Tested for the SM and MVD problem afflicting Cavaliers at the moment.

Let the Experts get the Legal Issue of the EBV Scheme sorted out, but let us Cavalier Pet Owners get involved in asking Cavalier Breeders for a Health Certificate, showing that the Parents of the Cavaliers we want to buy ,have been Health Tested for SM and MVD.