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Bet
13th November 2009, 07:30 PM
I have just read Carol's letter in Dog World's Letter Page to-day.

She has headed it ,don't Dismiss the Views of the Pet Owning Public.

It is in answer to Caroline Kisko ,Secretary ,of the Kennel Club,as Carol mentioned , making disparaging comments towards Pet Owners who contributed to the APGAW REPORT.

One of C Kisko's insults towards Pet Owners ,was ,she objected to individuals with no expertise getting the same profile as Breed Clubs who know what they are talking about.

A further insult of C Kisko's towards Pet Owners was her remark ,that one Bad Experience does not make some -one an Expert.

All I can say about that remark ,is where are the Cavalier Breeder Experts, who have let our Cavalier Breed get into the Dire Straits it's in to-day with the MVD and SM Problems.Where has their Experience Been.

OK many are beating their Breasts, saying ,look what we are now doing ,but where were they ,20 years ago when they were being warned about the MVD Problem in Cavaliers.

Carol's Letter had an interesting conclusion, that Pet Owners are dismissed as not knowing what they are Talking about ,and not qualified to have an equal Profile with Breeders or Breed Clubs

Possibly this is because ,as Carol goes onto say ,up until now we have operated as Individuals and perhaps the Time has come to create an Official Orginisation of our Own.

I sure would Second That!!

RodRussell
13th November 2009, 09:25 PM
Are these articles/letters available on-line? If so, where? Based upon Bet's reporting of what Caroline Kisko has argued, there seems to be nothing new.

For nearly two decades, several Cavalier breeders on this side of the Atlantic have used the old "Shut-up-because-I'm-a-breeder-and-you're-not!" argument to try to stifle legitimate debate without actually responding substantively.

And, their other tiresome non-argument has been "one bad experience does not make someone an expert!", just as Bet has related.

Nevertheless, it seems that one dog-bitch mating does make the owner a "breeder" and thereby, an "expert", at least a self-styled expert. Just ask 'em.

sins
13th November 2009, 09:36 PM
Good for Carol.
Pet owners who have had any experience of pedigree dogs are entitled to offer their opinion.
I think the expression is "armchair critic".
But these are the people who support the kennel Club.
They buy their dogs from Kennel Club Breeders and their armchairs from DFS so it's a win win for the Kennel Club.....:rotfl:
Sins

Oreo
13th November 2009, 09:53 PM
Are these articles/letters available on-line? If so, where?

I'm wondering the same.

Nanette posted this on another thread a while back and I looked and looked for where I could get access to it and the response letters . . . . I really wanted to read those responses.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3629/3546533362_d492b019c2_b.jpg



It seems many Cavalier breeders deny there is a problem. Hope it's ok to post this. There were responses to above letter in the following weeks Dog World and then another from the Barwells a week later. If it's ok to do this then I will post all other letters.
Nanette

HollyDolly
14th November 2009, 12:17 AM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3356/3545713851_6bf8cafe78_b.jpg

Oreo
14th November 2009, 01:21 AM
Thank you so much Nanette. :)

RodRussell
14th November 2009, 03:48 AM
I hope people have listened to the interviews on the Dog World website
http://www.dogworld.co.uk/home.aspx

The interviewer was less than challenging, she was practically feeding Caroline Kisko the answers.

Caroline herself spoke dismissively about................'individuals with no expertise getting the same profile as breed clubs who know what they're talking about' and 'one bad experience does not make someone an expert.'

So arrogant, that is you & me she is talking about.

This quote is from the "IMPORTANT: Bateson Enquiry on Dog Breeding: a Call for Evidence" thread. I finally found and listened to the Kisko interview on the Dog World website. Mme. Caroline Kisko really is a piece of work. Either or both ignorant and arrogant. I guaranty you that the US breed clubs, both connected to the AKC as parent clubs or independent ones, don't always act like they know what they are talking about.

Like the ACKCSC, which is AKC's parent club for Cavaliers: It does not even acknowledge the existence of the MVD breeding protocol, much less endorse it. Is that ignorance? Of course not. Members of the ACKCSC's board of directors know about the MVD breeding protocol. They simply have made a conscious (read: arrogant) decision to not tell anyone about it. So, here is an example of a breed club that has no clue about what it is talking about (or, in this case, not talking about).

Arrogance like that of the ACKCSC cries out for independent, pet-owner driven sources of information about MVD and its breeding protocol. I can even conceive of a website which could spring into existence to bring attention to this information simply because the breed club refuses to do so. In fact, I did conceive of such a website, over five years ago, for that very reason.

And yet, still, five years later, ACKCSC keeps its fingers crossed that none of its breeders will find out about that breeding protocol, which was fashioned to eliminate early-onset MVD within two to three generations. What could possibly be wrong with that goal, ACKCSC?

EddyAnne
15th November 2009, 12:11 AM
Interesting responses on Youtube from David Cavill. Near the end he responds to questions from Jemima Harrison about Cavaliers. The video on Youtube is at this link address.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qp7LrynKMw

Edited to amend my post as privately I have been corrected, sorry my mistake and many thanks for correcting me. David Cavill is NOT the Chairman of the UK Kennel Club. Ronnie Irving is the Chairman.

Here is a webpage with information about David Cavill see at this link address.
http://www.corsini.co.uk/cavill/david.htm
.

EddyAnne
15th November 2009, 12:25 AM
This quote is from the "IMPORTANT: Bateson Enquiry on Dog Breeding: a Call for Evidence" thread. I finally found and listened to the Kisko interview on the Dog World website.

Rod if you have some more time then I suggest you see and listen to the video and this which I posted elswhere.

I remember during the Australian 19 minute video interview when Bateson was asked what particularly worried him he replied Syringomyelia, he then went on mentioning severe headaches where the dog was quietly suffering. Yes he talked about this which I think may be in his Report.

The video interview for ABC TV Australia is still available on the internet on the ABC website, see at the bottom of the page via this link address.
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/extras/extra_videos/pedigreedogs/default.htm

By the way, I also noted that Bateson did mention this which I think may also be in his Report.
"I think a lot could be done by good Codes of Practice which then could be used, and if an animal charity wants to bring a case against a dog breeder and the dog breeder has not followed the Codes of Practice then they could be successfully Prosecuted."
.

RodRussell
15th November 2009, 12:36 AM
Interesting responses on Youtube from UK KC Chairman David Cavill. Near the end he responds to questions from Jemima Harrison about Cavaliers.

What he had to say was very interesting. His viewpoint seems to boil down to: If "it doesn't show", the dog should be eligible for a championship and possibly even to be bred. For examples: A blind dog, if he can find his way around the show ring, should be able to compete. A Cavalier with MVD or SM, as long as the disorder "doesn't show", should be allowed to compete and be bred.

And we are supposed to defer to characters like him, because he is a breeder, and therefore an expert? I think the term "menace" is more appropriate.

EddyAnne
15th November 2009, 01:03 AM
What he had to say was very interesting. His viewpoint seems to boil down to: If "it doesn't show", the dog should be eligible for a championship and possibly even to be bred. For examples: A blind dog, if he can find his way around the show ring, should be able to compete. A Cavalier with MVD or SM, as long as the disorder "doesn't show", should be allowed to compete and be bred.

Rod that is an interesting comment and I noted what frecklesmom posted in the General section of this forum.
KC revises exhibitors’ show entry declaration
I/we also undertake to abide by the regulations of this show and not to bring to the show any dog which has contracted or been knowingly exposed to any infectious or contagious disease during the 21 days prior to the show, or which is suffering from a visible condition which adversely affects its health or welfare or to bring any dog which has been prepared for exhibition contrary to Kennel Club regulations for the ‘preparation of dogs for exhibition F(Annex B)
.

RodRussell
15th November 2009, 03:18 AM
That's about it, Eddy. As far as the UK Kennel Club chairman seems to be concerned, superficial appearances rule the day. Invisible genetic disorders don't count because they are invisible.

It's time for this gentlemen to GO!

EddyAnne
15th November 2009, 10:59 AM
That's about it, Eddy. As far as the UK Kennel Club chairman seems to be concerned, superficial appearances rule the day. Invisible genetic disorders don't count because they are invisible.

It's time for this gentlemen to GO!
Rod in my previous post I made a mistake and I have been corrected privately which I am thankful for. David Cavill is NOT the Chairman of the UK Kennel Club. Ronnie Irving is the Chairman.

Here is a webpage with information about David Cavill who appeared in that video, see at this link address.
http://www.corsini.co.uk/cavill/david.htm
.

RodRussell
15th November 2009, 04:35 PM
Rod in my previous post I made a mistake and I have been corrected privately which I am thankful for. David Cavill is NOT the Chairman of the UK Kennel Club. Ronnie Irving is the Chairman.

Well, that is a big relief! It did seem quite unpolitic for the chairman of the Kennel Club to go out on a limb like Mr. Cavill did. Nevertheless, it seems that their ethics code provision falls right in line with Mr. Cavill's thinking.