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Bet
14th November 2009, 02:08 PM
I have started this new thread about EBV's, I know we were discussing the subject the other day ,but I can't find the Thread, and I just thought this might be of a wee bit of interest to others who might be interested in the subject.

EBV's will work where Breeders of any Species agree to Systematically measure the same Phenotypic features and where there is evidence for Heritability of those Traits .

It has been applied to Economically Characteristics in Cattle,Sheep, Goats etc for live Birth Weight ,Weaning Weight ,Eye Muscle Depth Greasy Wool Weight ,Fineness of Wool etc.

So there is no reason to suppose that EBV's could not be applied to Dog Breeding unless,

1,...No agreed Measure of the Trait Exists .

2.... The Trait has little or no Heritability

3 ......Insufficient numbers of Breeders agree to Measure the Same Trait in the Same Way and Share that Data in a National Scheme.

Dr Malcolm Willis ,Geneticist, here in Britain developed Progeny Data for Hip Scores provided an EBV for Sires for many Breeds.Sires with more than 10 Progeny Hip-Scored for a Variety of Dams were given fairly reliable EBV's for their ability to reduce (or in some cases increase) Hip Scores,those with more than 20 Scored Progeny were given quite reliable EBV's

The Value of this Data was that it was the Owners of the Progeny that agreed to the use of the Data so the Owner of a Stud Dog could not Supress the poor EBV's of his Dog.

In the 1990's ,the use of these EBV's by Breeders of German Sheperds and some other Breeds helped to turn around the Poor Hips in a few Generations,bringing down the Averages and making Breeders aware of Studs that improved or worsened the Hips of Progeny when put across unrelated Dams.

Could this be the same work that is involved for our Cavaliers and their SM Problem.?

EddyAnne
14th November 2009, 08:38 PM
In the 1990's ,the use of these EBV's by Breeders of German Sheperds and some other Breeds helped to turn around the Poor Hips in a few Generations,bringing down the Averages and making Breeders aware of Studs that improved or worsened the Hips of Progeny when put across unrelated Dams.

Yes Bet with EBVs they did turn around the Poor Hips in a few generations, and they mentioned this some time ago.
"The percentage of dogs with medium and severe HD was drastically reduced by initially 27%, until today there are only around 6%!"

For quite some years EBVs have already been used by some other breeds around the world to address their health problems. Such as the Seeing Eye Guide Dogs in America for over a decade. Yes even in Germany where the Zuchtwert (ZW) Program by the SV and the English translation would be "Breed Value (BV)".
Here is some interesting reading and I note it was voluntary from September 1998 then became obligatory as of 1 July, 1999.
http://www.siriusdog.com/hip-breed-value-zw-lanting.htm
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Bet
15th November 2009, 10:15 AM
What I can't understand here in Britain to-day, about the Problem for the EBV Scheme for our Cavaliers and the DATA Protection Act , I mentioned about Dr M. Willis, Geneticist,but would he be working with other Countries and Dog Breeders in the 1990's ,where their Data Protection Act is not so strict as here in Britain.

Any body know?

Bet
15th November 2009, 10:49 AM
Thanks EddyAnne for the Link,just printed it off and read it, is this the difference, that those taking part in the Scheme, Dogs must have a Pedigree/Registration Certificate,and I think it's Owners must be a Member of a FCI Club.

Dogs must be Tattood.

This is called Breed Value Procedure for HD,each Breeder currently and henceforth knows about the Inheritance Risk of his Bitch through this HD Breed Value. The Breed Value numbers of all Stud Dogs are likewise disclosed .From both of these comes a greater knowledge of the HD Risk for the Progeny. I don't know but will this just be another name for the EBV Scheme for Cavaliers .

EddyAnne
15th November 2009, 11:34 AM
Bet from what I know I think that Sarah Blott's EBV Program could produce results, particular so later on when the genes are found and then the stored cheek swabs can be tested and the results entered into the Program.

From the AHT and Sarah Blott which is mentioned on the Club's website.
"DNA testing can be used to increase the information available for the calculation of breeding values and is particularly useful for providing information about young dogs prior to their use for breeding. Research at the AHT is ultimately aimed at the development of genomic breeding values (geBVs), these will be similar to EBVs but will incorporate information from DNA testing."
"Donate a DNA sample from your dog
We are also collecting cheek swab samples from Cavaliers for DNA archiving and for research to develop genomic breeding values for syringomyelia and MVD."
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Karen and Ruby
15th November 2009, 12:26 PM
I donated Rubys DNA in February this year before she was diagnosed with SM. I tried contacting them to let them know that she had since been diagnosed but to no avail?
How would I go about letting them know her status has changed?

Thanks

Ruth
15th November 2009, 12:47 PM
Is this any good Karen?

http://www.aht.org.uk/contactus.html

Failing that, this is the email address of someone connected with the DNA scheme (he wrote to me to confirm my dogs inclusion in the scheme) ...
bryan.mclaughlin@aht.org.uk if nothing else I am sure he would point you in the right direction.

EddyAnne
15th November 2009, 02:25 PM
Bet here is a thought. In the UK do German Shepherd Breeders participate in the Breed Value Assessment (Zuchtwert) Program, if so what about the Data Protection Act. Do you think we should contact their Club and ask them?

By the way, if you want to print off some more pages here are some links.

BREED VALUE and the GSD - The SV Zuchtwert Program.

Part 1
http://siriusdog.com/sv-zuchtwert-program.htm

Part 2
http://siriusdog.com/sv-zuchtwert-program-2.htm

Part 3
http://siriusdog.com/sv-zuchtwert-program-3.htm
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Bet
17th November 2009, 12:33 PM
EddyAnne had mentioned about what the German Shepherd folk did here in Britain about their Breed information and the Data Protection Act.

I have just been speaking to a German Shepherd Club Secretary, to say I have got my eyes opened is putting it mildly.

The German Shepherd Folk, put all the information of their German Shepherds' Hip Scores, and now the Elbow Results in their Club Magazine. Have done this for years . The Breeders only have to check on these results to find out if the results of the GS they want to be involved with are good or bad. All results are Published .

Our Club wont even Publish the results of MRI Scans , just that the Cavalier has been MRI Scanned, .

The MVD Results are only for over 5's, not for Cavaliers at earlier ages.

Is the CKCS Club needing to move into the 21st Century.?

The Lady I was talking to ,said the GS Breeders are all very open about good or bad results ,does this happen with many of the Cavalier Breeders.

If those results for Heart and SM were published in the Club Magazine at the moment,not on the Internet , would the Data Protection Act be involved.

The Cavalier Breeders would know at a glance ,the result of the MRI Scans and Heart Test results.

I was told recently by a Cavalier Breeder it is nothing to do with Cavalier Pet Owners, this information, but it is, Cavalier Pet Owners who are members of the CKCS CLUB would be also able to see the status of the Parents of the Cavalier they were interested in buying.

Could this be another item for the CKCS CLUB's forth-coming AGM.?

EddyAnne
17th November 2009, 08:51 PM
I have just been speaking to a German Shepherd Club Secretary, to say I have got my eyes opened is putting it mildly.

The German Shepherd Folk, put all the information of their German Shepherds' Hip Scores, and now the Elbow Results in their Club Magazine. Have done this for years . The Breeders only have to check on these results to find out if the results of the GS they want to be involved with are good or bad. All results are Published .

Bet I thought that maybe the case over your way. In Australia for years the GSD Clubs have Published health testing results. In Australia they even include the following "letter codes" after their dogs name.
Cl. 1. Means it is far above the average conformation standard.
Cl. 11. Means above average conformation standard.
'a' Means it has passed its hip x-rays in Germany.
'A' Means it has passed its hip x-rays in Australia.
'Z' Means it has passed its elbows x-rays in Australia.
H-Neg. Means the male dog has been tested and cleared for Haemophilia.

The following graph shows the mean score hip improvement across all of the registered dogs in the GSD breed in Australia, and the breed has mandatory testing where certificates must be provided when applying to register puppies.

http://members.wideband.net.au/safcav/1A/HipScore.jpg

With the GSD SV EBV Program Fred Lanting mentioned the percentage of dogs with medium and severe HD was drastically reduced by initially 27%, until today there are only around 6%. He then mentioned their program had reached a plateau where the results were still around the 6%, and it was time that the program needed to "raise the bar" to continue improvement but this also meant to now include and breed away from mild and board line HD.

From what I gathered this is where turmoil started in their clubs with some not wanting to "raise the bar" maybe as some feel that they could achieve this by using the same bar level. About then I noticed a growing division between "show and work", and then I also noticed a growing trend from the old type to a new type as in 'banana backs' with 'shorter back legs'. Then I noticed that they also disallowed the white coats in the breed and which had been in the breed since its foundation, and where white coated GSDs previously had even been shown in the their conformation shows. Next thing I see GSDs in the PDE documentary and it makes me think about what is going on.

Back to Cavaliers and Sarah Blott's EBV Program, well I think it is a better program particularly so due to the following and where I think that the consideration of crossing with another breed might NOT be needed.
From the AHT and Sarah Blott which is mentioned on the Club's website.
"DNA testing can be used to increase the information available for the calculation of breeding values and is particularly useful for providing information about young dogs prior to their use for breeding. Research at the AHT is ultimately aimed at the development of genomic breeding values (geBVs), these will be similar to EBVs but will incorporate information from DNA testing."
"Donate a DNA sample from your dog. We are also collecting cheek swab samples from Cavaliers for DNA archiving and for research to develop genomic breeding values for syringomyelia and MVD."
.

Ruth
17th November 2009, 11:00 PM
Just posted today on the KC website :

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2791/23/5/3

EddyAnne
18th November 2009, 12:33 AM
Just posted today on the KC website :

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2791/23/5/3
Ruth thanks, and I noted the mention of developing enhanced pedigrees to include DNA Profiles and Health Test Results and who knows maybe later Cavaliers might also have enhanced pedigrees but then again I think about the Data Protection Act, plus I noted the following in the last 3 paragraphs.

There has been a great deal of talk about the way forward, but the Kennel Club has yet to see any real action from the GSD community since raising its concerns. Many side issues have been introduced and special pleading that the breed needs to be treated differently to over 200 other registered breeds. The Kennel Club simply cannot and will not allow itself to be diverted from addressing the fundamental issue of soundness in the breed.

It was with considerable regret, therefore, that the Kennel Club found it necessary to defer allocation of its highest award, the Challenge Certificate, to GSDs for 2012.

When the GSD clubs embrace the need to address these concerns, and commit to an effective and realistic plan of action, the Kennel Club will support their actions and will ensure that Challenge Certificates are allocated appropriately.
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Bet
18th November 2009, 10:14 AM
I know this is a Cavalier Site, and I had mentioned yesterday about speaking on the Phone to a GSD Club Secretary, as far as I could understand the information ,at the British Sieger Competition,all GSD's have to have a Hip Score of a certain reading.

EddyAnne
21st November 2009, 11:44 PM
I know this is a Cavalier Site, and I had mentioned yesterday about speaking on the Phone to a GSD Club Secretary, as far as I could understand the information ,at the British Sieger Competition,all GSD's have to have a Hip Score of a certain reading.
By the way Bet, a Sieger Show is NOT like the typical KC Dog Show. Sieger Dog Shows include such things as courage tests and where judges fire guns. Somehow I think that many GSDs would not qualify even if they had the health testing requirements.

A bit of a copy and paste from their Rules which gives an idea of some things that happen at a Seiger Show.
Before entering the test area the dog’s tattoo and/or micro chip number is examined and verified.
1. The dog and handler will proceed to the marked starting point they take a couple of steps, with the lead still attached to the dog.
2. The dog is placed in the basic position (sitting), the lead is removed and the handler and dog walk towards the area where the helper is hiding. As they approach the hiding place, upon a signal from the judge the helper comes-out and moves towards the dog in a threatening manner. The dog is required to grip the helpers arm, and once the helper stops his resistance the dog should release automatically or alternatively release the grip when given a command by the handler. Upon releasing, the dog is required to stay close to the helper and remain in a guarding mode. In all instances the handler is only allowed to give three ‘out’ commands.
3. The handler takes his dog and leads him to the new starting point for the commencement of the next exercise.

Yes I've seen such things and a Sieger Show is NOT like the typical KC Dog Show.

By the way and just as a matter of interest, years ago at a GSD Club event our Cavaliers were awarded these, plus also some other things at other GSD Club events.

http://members.wideband.net.au/safcav/1A/MedalGSD.jpg
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EddyAnne
28th November 2009, 11:07 PM
Update on the UK GSD breed, they wants the KC to introduce mandatory health checks on all KC-registered GSDs, and at the bottom of the article I noticed "ensures a sea change in showing only KC-registered GSDs who have had mandatory health tests, and ensuring that healthy dogs only will be awarded the top awards". See DogWorld article at this link address.
http://www.dogworld.co.uk/News/48-GSD
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