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RodRussell
19th November 2009, 04:27 PM
A panel of leading veterinary cardiologists (Atkins, Bonagura, Ettinger, Fox, Gordon, Haggstrom, Hamlin, Keene, Luis-Fuentes, and Stepien) have just published a Consensus Statement on "Guidelines for the Diagnosis and Treatment of Canine Chronic Valvular Heart Disease." It discusses classifying the degree of progression of MVD -- Stages A, B1, B2, C, and D -- and the types of treatment recommended for each stage.

In the report, Cavaliers are singled out for special attention. For example, every CKCS which does not have an MVD murmur is in the Stage A classification.

The Guidelines are summarized at http://cavalierhealth.org/mitral_valve_disease.htm#ACVIM_Consensus_Statement (or http://tinyurl.com/ycexlj9 for short)

and a pdf of the report is available, for a short time only, at http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/122604679/PDFSTART

Karlin
21st November 2009, 02:08 AM
Very interesting! I sent that to my vets. :)

Sad that cavaliers alone are singled out on the basis that it can be assumed they ALL fall into the 'may not have MVD yet but can be assumed that they will get it.' :(

Bet
21st November 2009, 10:37 AM
Just wonder if the Comment about All Cavaliers can be assumed to get MVD ,is because there are maybe so many Carriers of MVD Genes around to-day since the Heart Problem has been known about in our Cavalier Breed from the 1940's.

Could I include the mention also in this Post about SM, others have claimed about SM being in other Breeds ,but I think that Neurologists agree that it is worse in the Cavalier Breed.

Is this because ,as I have read in different Cavalier Books, that the Cavalier Breed is what is described as a Man Made Breed, this began in the 1930's ,whan Cavaliers Heads were altered from the King Charles Spaniels 'Dome Heads ,to get the Flat Type of Head Required for the Cavalier Breed.

Kate H
21st November 2009, 02:38 PM
Responding to Bet's question, looking at paintings and old photos, it is the King Charles which is the 'man-made breed', since their domed heads and flat faces only start appearing around the 1880s, when breeds with this type of head from the Far East (such as Pekingese and Japanese Chins) were first brought to England and became very fashionable; the Charlies' heads were probably the result of cross-breeding. So the efforts to breed King Charles with the old-style flat heads (later classified as a separate breed called Cavalier King Charles Spaniels) was an attempt to breed back to the old type, in response to the American Roswell Eldridge's prize at Crufts for the best old type toy spaniel. So the early Cavaliers were essentially throw outs from Charlie litters who had thrown back to the long nosed, flat-headed type. Talking to a friend who has both Cavaliers and Charlies, there is quite a lot of SM in their breed as well (though they are of course numerically very much smaller than Cavaliers, so the numbers with SM are correspondingly smaller) - so perhaps that's where the Chiari Malformation in Cavaliers came from!

There is a useful history of the breed (based on latest research and club archives) and fascinating photos of the first 'resurrected' Cavaliers and the first shows in the Millennium edition of the Cavalier Club Year Book. Incidentally, it's interesting, looking at the photo of Ann's Son who was the model for the Cavalier breed standard, to see how narrow his skull was compared with many of today's (though the angle of the photo rather distorts his head shape, unfortunately). He was such a pretty dog.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

EddyAnne
21st November 2009, 09:13 PM
it is the King Charles which is the 'man-made breed', since their domed heads and flat faces only start appearing around the 1880s, when breeds with this type of head from the Far East (such as Pekingese and Japanese Chins) were first brought to England and became very fashionable; the Charlies' heads were probably the result of cross-breeding.

I think that a fashion started, and I will go somewhat off topic as some may find this interesting but I will include some information about Pekingese dogs in history.

Things seemed to start with people in the UK plus elsewhere wanting things like tea, spices, silk and porcelain from China where the British initially paid for this with Silver. Later as the quantities dramatically increased and there was less Silver left the currency paid to China then became Opium from India, in particular from what is today Pakistan and Afghanistan region plus there was also some Opium from Turkey. I am talking about each year heaps of tons of Opium. The Chinese Emperor seeing heaps of his people in all classes using Opium recreationally and this too often plus the corruption that was going on then decided to stop the trade, that led to what was called "The Opium Wars".

During the Second Opium War, in 1860, the Forbidden City was invaded by Allied troops, including British. The Emperor Xianfeng had fled with all of his court. However, an elderly aunt of the emperor remained. When the ‘foreign devils’ entered, she committed suicide. She was found with her five Pekingese mourning her passing. They were removed by the Allies before the Old Summer Palace was burnt. The invaders also removed many other valuable things before torching the Palace.

Lord John Hay took a pair of the Pekingese, later called ‘Schloff’, and ‘Hytien’ and gave them to his sister, the Duchess of Wellington, wife of Henry Wellesley, 3rd Duke of Wellington. Sir George Fitzroy took another pair, and gave them to his cousins, the Duke and Duchess of Richmond and Gordon. Lieutenant Dunne presented the fifth Pekingese to Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom, who named it LOOTY.

Yes when dogs such as these were shown around by these people then others wanted them where a fashion started. Back then cross breeding commonly occurred even to produce certain looks that were in fashion.
.

Bet
22nd November 2009, 10:58 AM
Kate mentioned ANN'S SON, I think I have mentioned this before, Miss Mostyn Walker ,the Owner and Breeder of Ann's Son, has cataghorically said , Ann's Son was a Papillion.

Thanks EddyAnne for your mention of the Pekes.

Is not the Problem with the Cavaliers ,it was Man Made only about 70 years ago, in the 1930's, could this be when the first of the Problems began for Cavaliers with their Malformed Bone, then the SM Problem was either made much worse or introduced by the Heads of Cavaliers becoming Smaller in the 1980's .

I wonder if this is the look that appealed to Cavalier Breeders ,not because they liked it especially ,but because , this Smaller Cavalier Head began to Win at Cavalier Shows.

When you think about it, all that is important for many Cavalier Breeders ,is their Show Winning Sucesses.

Is this why many Cavalier Breeders are so against the APGAW's Recommendations, that before Cavaliers are made up to be Champions ,they have to be Health Tested.

Could this just maybe be the Reason why our Cavaliers are suffering so much Pain from SM and MVD , is to satisfy the Egos of a number of Cavalier Breeders who attend the Cavalier Shows.

The Health Problems of our Cavalier Breed can't be blamed on Cavalier Pet Owners, we are being left with with the Tears and Heart Ache seeing the suffering of Beloved Cavaliers caused by the Breeding of Cavaliers by a number of Cavalier Breeders,.

Yorkysue
22nd November 2009, 01:12 PM
Bet

Aren't ALL purebred dogs MAN MADE by definition???

Anne's Son a Pappillon?? It has been said that his Sire may have been a pappillon! but as far as I know it has not been confirmed.

It does seem to be a matter of opinion on whether the cavalier head is smaller now. In the past there was greater diversity in size shape of cavalier heads, and cavaliers in general. (And still is outside the show ring) The Classic head is still a classic head - and can be seen at any large show you may care to attend.

Bet
22nd November 2009, 01:52 PM
Yorkie Sue ,
When I said Cavaliers were Man Made, I don't know of another Breed that was Man Made only 70 years ago. Perhaps some-body could put me right about this.

About Ann's Son, this has been written about in Bruce Field's Book,The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel ,

About the Cavaliers having Smaller Skulls than 20 years ago ,we had'nt been to any Cavalier Shows for about 15 years, 2 years ago we wen't to a Cavalier Champ Show at Lanark, that was the first thing that I noticed ,how much Smaller the Cavaliers' Heads were.

If you Read the APGAW Report ,this has been mentioned in it, the Cavalier heads are too Small for their Brains, Dr C Rusbridge has also mentioned this in in a Recently Published Neurological Veterinary Paper, maybe more will be being said about this at her forth-coming Seminar.

Dr C Rusbridge also gave Oral Information to the APGAW Committee , whether this fact was mentioned ,I have no idea. , but she did say on the PDE TV Film , the Cavalier Brain was like getting a size 10 Foot into a sizw 6 Shoe.

EddyAnne
22nd November 2009, 02:02 PM
Miss Mostyn Walker ,the Owner and Breeder of Ann's Son, has cataghorically said , Ann's Son was a Papillion.

I thought that this was a photo of Ann's Son, if not then please let me know.

http://members.wideband.net.au/safcav/1A/AnnsSon.jpg
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Yorkysue
22nd November 2009, 02:22 PM
I thought that this was a photo of Ann's Son, if not then please let me know.

http://members.wideband.net.au/safcav/1A/AnnsSon.jpg
.

Yes this is a photo of Ann's son. It will be up to individuals to draw conclusions as to how much pappillon this dog displays.:)

Yorkysue
22nd November 2009, 02:23 PM
Bet - It has been well documented by now that the reason the cavalier brain is too big for the skull is that there is a breakdown in communication between the skull and the brain in foetal development. The brain does not 'switch off' growing. If it did then this would not happen. It is nothing to do with the skull being bred too small as far as I understand it.

You went to a show a couple of years ago and you say you noticed that the cavalier heads were smaller. This is something You noticed. It doesn't make it a scientific fact - which is how you are trying to protray it.

EddyAnne
22nd November 2009, 02:32 PM
Anne's Son a Pappillon?? It has been said that his Sire may have been a pappillon! but as far as I know it has not been confirmed.

I really don't know, but to achieve results rather quickly maybe a Papillon might have been used, such as maybe the drop eared Papillon called the Phalene and here is a photo of a modern day Phalene. Maybe someone can let us know exactly what happened way back then.

http://www.phalenes.com/Just%20Hunter%20BOB.JPG
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Bet
22nd November 2009, 02:38 PM
EddyAnne .

Should have checked what I had Posted , Miss Mostyn Walker had said ,that

ANN's Son was the Off-Spring of a Tri- Colour Bitch and a Papillon.

I have a Photo Copy of his Pedigree mentioning this.

All we know is that Mrs Amice Pitt ,the Founder of the Cavalier Breed said Ann's Son was born in 1924, the Kennel Club's Registration of Ann's Son was, 29 -4 -1927.

This is what makes the History of our Cavalier Breed so interesting.

I once wrote this for a Cavalier Magazine about the age of Ann's Son and his Last Litter ,what age was he Really.

The Cavalier is a Wonderful ,Happy -go -Lucky ,Fun Loving Breed .

Perhaps this will add as further Enchantment to their History .

The Vision ,ANN'S SON , Tail Waving ,Familiar Cavalier Grin .

Well did I ,or Didn't I !!!

EddyAnne
22nd November 2009, 02:44 PM
Bet thanks for the information.

By the way, any chance of scaning the photocopy and emailing it to me, maybe even put a copy here in this thread so all can see.
.

Bet
22nd November 2009, 02:56 PM
Eddy Anne,

I will try to do this but I will need to send the Photo Copy by Post. There will always be the doubters who will say it is false.

When I found out about the TWO Dates of Birth of Ann's Son ,and wrote about this, I WAS NOT the FLAVOUR of the MONTH amongst some of the elderly Cavalier Folk, in fact ,got a Letter telling me to Shut about It. Times have never changed for Me !!!

Margaret C
22nd November 2009, 03:04 PM
I thought that this was a photo of Ann's Son, if not then please let me know.

http://members.wideband.net.au/safcav/1A/AnnsSon.jpg
.

This dog was the 'live specimen' used to draw up the original cavalier standard in 1928. Would he win in the show ring now?

There is no doubt that what is considered desired type has changed greatly over the decades.


Footnote....... for some reason the photo, which showed on the preview, has not shown up here.
You will therefore need to go back to posts on page 1 to see Ann's son

EddyAnne
22nd November 2009, 03:40 PM
Eddy Anne,

I will try to do this but I will need to send the Photo Copy by Post. There will always be the doubters who will say it is false.

When I found out about the TWO Dates of Birth of Ann's Son ,and wrote about this, I WAS NOT the FLAVOUR of the MONTH amongst some of the elderly Cavalier Folk, in fact ,got a Letter telling me to Shut about It. Times have never changed for Me !!!
Bet if the photocopied Pedigrees mentioning this then that could be verified with the Kennel Club pedigree records.

By the way Bet, some time back I thought "short nosed dogs" were used as late as 1935 eg. "Springvale Pharoah". Later I heard from someone that between 1945 and until 1980 there has been "interbreedings". Could this be so, and if so do you have any photocopy pedigree information from KC records.
.

Oreo
22nd November 2009, 06:26 PM
I found a site a while back which also speaks to Ann's Son having a Papillon sire (Phalene).

http://www.shealagh.fsnet.co.uk/King%20Charles%20Spaniel.html


"Anns Son the dog on whom the Cavalier King Charles Breed Standard was drawn ,was, in fact a Papillion , King Charles Spaniel cross mating (This was verified by Mrs Phyliss Watson with cared for Anns son for over 8 years worked for Mrs Raymond Mallock Ashtonmore.

(Also Anns Son's litter sister was aTricolour and you can't get a tricolour from blen x blen mating )

This mating was repeated several times but never produced another dog like Anns Son again.
Many things have been written about the history of our breed and the way the King Charles Spaniel evolved The only certainty is that any of the things, that went into its makeup are beyond recall and we must give all our attention and carry on with the dogs we actually have today. But, it is said ,that when you own a King Charles Spaniel you own a piece of history."
I thought the comment about a tricolor pup (or pups, wasn't there a brother as well?) was very telling, as genetics make it impossible to get tricolor pups from two blenheim parents.

A copy of Ann's son's pedigree can be found at this link.

http://www.arkwebshost.com/nonprofit/cavalierkcsuk/Cavalier_King_Charles_Spaniel_History.shtml

As Pekingese were mentioned, I also wanted to show some old photos which seem to reflect how little was established (regarding breeds) back in the early 1900s.

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae119/comfortcreature/Small%20breeds%20in%20art/PekingeseandTwoChin.jpg

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae119/comfortcreature/Small%20breeds%20in%20art/Ta-JenSmoothPekingese.jpg

Those were from the Pekingese Club Of America.

http://www.thepekingeseclubofamerica.com/The%20Pekingese%20and%20The%20Happa%20Dog,%20with% 20photos.pdf

And I think this one from "Toy Dogs And Their Ancestors", is interesting with its accompanying excerpt.

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae119/comfortcreature/Billyagain.jpg

Bet
22nd November 2009, 06:57 PM
EddyAnne,

Yes ,Crest by Candlelight Cavalier was Mated to Suntop Joyful Cocker Spaniel.

Crest by Candlelight ,Cavalier Dog B/T ,born 1-11-49.

I don't have Pedigrees only the Kennel Club Breed Supplements from 1920.

This is why I wonder if there could be to-day controlled Matings between Cavaliers and Cocker Spaniels so that the Cavaliers could have Larger Skulls.

Since Dr Rusbridge has said the Cavalier Skulls are too Small for their Brains.

Bet
22nd November 2009, 07:17 PM
Oreo,

Thanks for the information ,a number of years ago I spoke with Mrs .P Watson on the Phone, about Ann's Son, I got into enough trouble at the time , when I was mentioning about that there might be doubt's about the age of Ann's Son, Mrs, Watson so I kept quiet,said that in 1928 ,when she had held him, he was nearer 4 years of age ,the age Mrs Pitt gave him as being born in 1924 ,than the age of being born in 1927.He would have been 15 when he Sired his last Litter, not impossible, but what I never could understand ,was when he was such a credit to the Breed ,in his life-time ,he only Sired 11 Litters.I have spoken with a Cavalier Breeder who visited Miss Mostyn Walker's Kennels in the mid 1930's, Ann's Son was nowhere to be seen.I know I have read a lot of Agatha Christie 's Novels, but....

So if Ann's Son did'nt Sire his Last Litter, which contained DAYWELL NELL,Ch Daywell Roger's Dam, what a lot of doubtful Cavalier Pedigrees could be around.

The Mind Boggles. !!

Bet
22nd November 2009, 07:31 PM
Oreo,

Just looked at the second Site Link you gave, all I can say. ... is JINGS,this is what has always interested me so much, is the History of our Breed.

Pat
22nd November 2009, 07:42 PM
Just grabbed Bruce Fields' book to check:

Pages 16 through 23 talk about Ann's Son and his very successful show career. Page 23 says that Mrs. Pitt and "two other breeders of the time, one of them a great friend of Miss Mostyn Walker....said categorically that Ann's Son was the offspring of a tricolour bitch and a Papillon. Ann's Son certainly had the daintiness and prettiness to justfy a connection with Papillons and we know that Miss Mostyn Walker did keep and breed Papillons. But as Bunty Green points out in a personal communication, Ann's Son 'must have been more Charlie than Papillon. Where else would have have obtained those lovely eyes?'"

These pages also say that Ann's Son weighed 13 lbs and that "Mrs. Pitt acknowledged that Ann's Son was 'very mean under the eyes and he was poor in hindquarters' but nevertheless stated 'he was an outstanding dog.'" I presume that "mean under the eyes" means lack of cushioning?

At any rate, possibly his most important contribution was being the sire of Ch. Daywell Roger.

Pat

Bet
22nd November 2009, 07:47 PM
Pat,

I had helped Bruce with some Research for his Book ,saw some Personal Papers from Mrs A Pitt, that's where I saw her mention about Ann's Son being born in 1924,.

Pat
22nd November 2009, 07:49 PM
Darn, I hadn't read the second page before I posted so my post was old news.........but the problem of the two different dates of birth are also in Bruce's book and the ramifications concerning siring Daywell Roger......

Pat

Bet
22nd November 2009, 07:52 PM
Pat ,

Bruce and me still argue about this to-day.!!!!!

EddyAnne
23rd November 2009, 01:46 AM
This is why I wonder if there could be to-day controlled Matings between Cavaliers and Cocker Spaniels so that the Cavaliers could have Larger Skulls.

Bet I know something about Controlled Matings this from very experienced breeders who founded and are developing a breed. Meet our Quincy who is an Australian Labradoodle. Way back in his Pedigree there are Labradors and Poodles, then for generations there was Australian Labradoodle bred to Australian Labradoodle, but keep in mind that during the process of breed development there were also some Infusions of other breeds for certain reasons. I also know of successes and even problems that were encountered where some lines were stopped. If the Cavalier is to go in the direction that you mention my first question would be who will be the very experienced breeders that will do this. Personally I think that the best way forward for the Cavalier is with the EBV Program.

http://members.wideband.net.au/safcav/Quincy.jpg
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EddyAnne
23rd November 2009, 06:05 AM
Talking about 1860 Peking China here is an interesting History article not about Dogs but about Pekin Bantam CHICKENS. Well some might find it interesting.
Part 1 mentions the Chickens plus some military things in 1860 during the Second Opium War.
http://www.pekinheaven.com/history1.htm

Part 2 mentions the Chickens in the UK. Interestingly this was mentioned, "Early poultry enthusiasts soon realised that if the breed were to continue in this country, let alone be improved, then outcrossing was necessary." Also interesting, "Todays Pekins are a very long way away from those early rounded Pekins who won top awards at show, they were poor in colour and long in the leg by todays standards." Then I have a think of the Pekinese DOGS from the 1860 Second Opium War that were brought back to the UK and I wonder what happened to them since then till today.
http://www.pekinheaven.com/history2.htm
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EddyAnne
23rd November 2009, 06:51 AM
Oreo,

Just looked at the second Site Link you gave, all I can say. ... is JINGS,this is what has always interested me so much, is the History of our Breed.
Bet I'm also interested in History and not just in Cavaliers. By the way I noticed Anns Son photo via the link. <big smile>

Oreo many thanks for your posts which I found rather interesting.
.

Bet
23rd November 2009, 10:38 AM
EddyAnne,

I am not saying that the Cavalier World goes over -board and Cross-Breeds with Cocker Spaniels, but just for some interested Breeders to give this way a chance ,and see what happens.

A Neurologist could maybe keep watch and see what happens,surely there is nothing to be being lost by doing this.

As it happens I have a Photo of this type of mating being done a number of years ago in the Borders of Scotland,.

The Bottom line though is, with EBV's or what ever scheme is thought about to help the Health and future of our Cavaliers,for many Cavalier Breeders , if that Cavalier has no chance of Winning in the Show Scene,end of story.!

I had'nt realized till I read the APGAW Report that a Breeder is Considered a Commercial Breeder if they Breed 5 Litters a Year, so I guess money will come into this as well, since Commercial means a Business ..

So if Cavaliers are not Winning in the Show Ring, that could be damaging the interests money-wise of a Number of Cavalier Breeders because of Stud Fees and the Sale of Cavalier Puppies.

Yorkysue
23rd November 2009, 03:27 PM
I honestly do not understand why anyone would want to spoil our beautiful breed by crossing them with another breed - whatever it is - just on the offchance that it might (and that is a big 'might') help some of the health issues.

All other breeds have health issues that you will introduce! and if cavalier breeders are finding it difficult enough as it is to try and bring MVD and SM under control with no gene identification - what chance is there of doing it by introducing another breed. It is 'pie in the sky.'

Not to mention that if you use another breed - ie a cocker - what will happen to the coat colours of the new cavalier? as cockers have different colouring genes? and what about the high set ears of the cavalier? and almost flat top of skull? to just mention a couple of things.

Anyone advocating this maybe should be looking at a different breed?
I will stick with cavaliers - warts and all!

EddyAnne
23rd November 2009, 08:44 PM
Not to mention that if you use another breed - ie a cocker - what will happen to the coat colours of the new cavalier? as cockers have different colouring genes? and what about the high set ears of the cavalier? and almost flat top of skull? to just mention a couple of things.

Yorkysue here is something to think about.

Springer Spaniels and Cocker Spaniel pups were often born within the same litter, size alone being the distinguishing factor as to what they were called in Springing or Cocking which were really function names used in hunting. In 1902 the English Kennel Club recognized the English Springer Spaniel as a distinct breed from English Cocker Spaniel.

Centuries prior, The Duke of Marlborough did some cross breeding and developing, this with the True Toy Spaniel brought from the East via Europe and the Cocking and Springing Spaniel and in doing so produced a developed a Marlborough Type. In the process Marlborough bred some smaller spaniels, these may have been the runts of the litter and they were called Carpet Spaniels, and they may have been crossbred to produce the Blenheim Spaniels that we know today, and back then some of these had the domed head and some had the flatter head that we know in the Cavalier.

I'm talking about the doggies at this place and where the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club are hosting "The Combined Club’s Championship Show" at Blenheim Palace, Oxfordshire over the weekend of 21 & 22 August 2010.
http://www.blenheimpalace.com/

If you do a tour through the Palace keep an eye out on the paintings, you may even spot this one and notice the little doggies at the bottom left and right.

http://members.wideband.net.au/safcav/1Marlb/MarlbBigPic.jpg
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EddyAnne
24th November 2009, 02:30 AM
Continuing on as some on the forum might be interested.

Historically the word Blenheim and probably the first use of the word to England and the English language appears to have come from the name of a small village in Bavaria, South Germany, on the Danube River near Hochstadt. In German that village is spelt and pronounced Blindheim.

Englishman John Churchill when he arrived at that village more likely spelt and pronounced the name as Blindheim, especially so as he was with a friend called Prince Eugene of Savoy who would have spelt and pronounced the name correctly as Blindheim.

At Blindheim village on 13 August 1704 one of the most important battles of the War of the Spanish Succession occurred, where John Churchill with Prince Eugene of Savoy defeated the French and Bavarians under Marshals C. Tallard and F. Marsin who were on the march to take Vienna in Austria, but on seeing John Churchill and Prince Eugene decided to dig-in and defend themselves, and the most defended position was at the village of Blindheim.

For those who are interested here are two eyewitness accounts of the Battle of Blenheim. The first is the Duke of Marlborough's own account of the battle, the second is the account by Dr. Hare, the Duke's Chaplain, at this link address.
http://www.kipar.org/military-history/kirkes_blenheim.html

Back in England when Queen Anne heard the news she was extremely thrilled, and when John Churchill returned back to England she awarded John the title of Duke Of Marlborough and also commissioned a Palace to be built for John and which became known as Blenheim Palace, that name came from the village named Blindheim but somehow the name changed slightly to Blenheim probably due to differences in language.

John Churchill and his wife Sarah Jennings (maiden name) were breeders, and their Cavaliers were referred to by different names particularly "Marlborough Spaniels" and "Blenheim Spaniels". But keep in mind that there were Blenheim coloured Cavaliers before the battle of Blenheim and before that name became commonly known and used.

I suppose the name and pronunciation could vary depending on what part of the world you are in, and maybe the more correct spelling and pronunciation should be Blindheim as referred to the origins of the name as seen on this webpage.
http://www.blindheim.de/schlacht1704/index.html

In relation to the Cavalier Lozenge that some might be thinking about. As the story goes Sarah Jennings was worried and waiting for news of her husband John Churchill who was away fighting at war at the small Bavarian town called Blindheim which occurred on 13 August 1704. Sarah had her pregnant bitch sitting on her lap, and in her anxiety she pressed her thumb on the little bitch's head, and when it later gave birth it produced a whole litter of pups all marked with a chestnut thumb print on top of their heads. But keep in mind that the Lozenge had been know to occur in Cavaliers before, and the Lozenge occurs in some of the other breeds that were used in the cross breeding development of the Cavalier.
.

Bet
24th November 2009, 10:48 AM
EddyAnne ,

Thanks so much for this Information, it's now in my Historical File.

Just to put you on the Spot, I have gone on for a number of years ,wondering about whether the Alteration in the 1930's ,to get the Flat Type of Head for Cavaliers from the Dome Shaped Head of the King Charles Spaniels, has any-thing to do with the Malformed Bone (CM) the Cavaliers have .

What do you think?

EddyAnne
24th November 2009, 01:13 PM
Just to put you on the Spot, I have gone on for a number of years ,wondering about whether the Alteration in the 1930's ,to get the Flat Type of Head for Cavaliers from the Dome Shaped Head of the King Charles Spaniels, has any-thing to do with the Malformed Bone (CM) the Cavaliers have .

What do you think?
From what I have read it appears that CM is at the BACK of the skull at the cerebellum and medulla area, think internally.

I read that King Charles Spaniels could have CM/SM, and that breed DOES HAVE Domed Shaped Heads. Note that breed mentioned on Dr. Guy Rouleau's presentation slide at the Chiari Conference, see a copy here.

http://members.wideband.net.au/safcav/1A/SlideOtherBreeds.jpg
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EddyAnne
24th November 2009, 02:18 PM
Here is an interesting article on history and breed development that some might like to read.

The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
by Sue Newnes, Penquite Cavaliers

Part 1: The Origin of Toy Spaniels
http://cavalierkingcharles.net/penquitecavaliers/history.html

Part 2: Modern Times
http://cavalierkingcharles.net/penquitecavaliers/history_part2.html

Edited later to add this - PLEASE NOTE

Sue Newnes contacted me privately to inform me that she has no objections to people reading the articles, they are just one persons opinion, but would appreciate it if I would point out that the site has been lapsed/closed for many years and is no longer up to date. Also she looked at the site I provided links to and the guest book there and she realised as the domain name no longer belonged to her it is being used by another. Her personal details have not been removed. She mentioned "Please point this out to CT members. I do not and have never endorsed any of the links attached to the guest book." Also that she is trying to get the website removed.

Years ago I knew of Sue’s article which I thought was excellent. I did a Google search to find it again and the links I provided was from the search. I did not go through the site that was there and I did not realise it had been lapsed/closed and the domain name no longer belonged to her.
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RodRussell
24th November 2009, 03:31 PM
The book that Sue Newnes first mentions in her article about the origin of toy spaniels, "Toy Dogs and their Ancestors", is downloadable in pdf format from Google Books at http://books.google.com/books?id=CMtAAAAAIAAJ&dq=%22Toy+Dogs+and+their+Ancestors%22+Lytton&source=gbs_navlinks_s or http://tinyurl.com/ybeg2e2 for short.
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Rod Russell

EddyAnne
24th November 2009, 06:23 PM
PLEASE NOTE

Sue Newnes contacted me privately to inform me that she has no objections to people reading the articles, they are just one persons opinion, but would appreciate it if I would point out that the site has been lapsed/closed for many years and is no longer up to date. Also she looked at the site I provided links to and the guest book there and she realised as the domain name no longer belonged to her it is being used by another. Her personal details have not been removed. She mentioned "Please point this out to CT members. I do not and have never endorsed any of the links attached to the guest book." Also that she is trying to get the website removed.

Years ago I knew of Sue’s article which I thought was excellent. I did a Google search to find it again and the links I provided was from the search. I did not go through the site that was there and I did not realise it had been lapsed/closed and the domain name no longer belonged to her.
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Oreo
24th November 2009, 07:47 PM
The book that Sue Newnes first mentions in her article about the origin of toy spaniels, "Toy Dogs and their Ancestors", is downloadable in pdf format from Google Books at http://books.google.com/books?id=CMtAAAAAIAAJ&dq=%22Toy+Dogs+and+their+Ancestors%22+Lytton&source=gbs_navlinks_s or http://tinyurl.com/ybeg2e2 for short.
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Rod Russell

I am soooo technology challenged. I couldn't figure out how to download from this link. I'm still trying if anyone wants to walk me through it as I'd like to see if the PDF loads more easily than the ones I've saved before.

These are links that I have. The full PDF takes quite a while to download (I have country satellite snail speed so this might not be a problem for many).

for just the origin chapter: http://csl.stanford.edu/~trish/TD_Origin-chap2.pdf

for the chapter about the pyrame: http://csl.stanford.edu/~trish/TD-Pyrame-chap.pdf

full book pdf: http://csl.stanford.edu/~trish/TD_Book-1911.pdf

EddyAnne
25th November 2009, 04:18 AM
That's an interesting book published a century ago, she even included this.

http://members.wideband.net.au/safcav/1A/BewareOfTheseInBuyingADog.jpg
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Soushiruiuma
25th November 2009, 07:53 AM
The book that Sue Newnes first mentions in her article about the origin of toy spaniels, "Toy Dogs and their Ancestors", is downloadable in pdf format from Google Books at http://books.google.com/books?id=CMtAAAAAIAAJ&dq=%22Toy+Dogs+and+their+Ancestors%22+Lytton&source=gbs_navlinks_s or http://tinyurl.com/ybeg2e2 for short.
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Rod Russell

Interesting! On page 195 (I skimmed) she mentions that "inflammation of the brain" is one of the most common results of excessive inbreeding. I have to wonder if this is an early reference to SM.

I love the absolute bewilderment about how coat color is inherited. I have been meaning to go through some old literature about inheritance to see how people misinterpreted what seems blatantly obvious nowadays. One day I will have free time.

EddyAnne
25th November 2009, 12:01 PM
Interesting! On page 195 (I skimmed) she mentions that "inflammation of the brain" is one of the most common results of excessive inbreeding. I have to wonder if this is an early reference to SM.

Yes that is interesting on Page 196 and folks here is a copy of that part.

http://members.wideband.net.au/safcav/1A/InbreedInflamBrain5.jpg
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Bet
26th November 2009, 03:26 PM
I have mentioned this before ,but could the reason be for the severe MVD Heart Problem afflicting Cavaliers, be that no notice has been taken by Cavalier Breeders through-out the years ,since the 1940's when Cavaliers were known to be dying with Heart Trouble at an Early Age, and Cavaliers were being used at Stud ,also known to be suffering from Heart Trouble, that there are now so many Cavalier Carriers around now with the MVD Gene/ Genes,that this is why the Kennel Club has recently said that MVD is the Biggest Killer for the Cavalier Breed,and the UK CKCS CLUB have said that MVD is the NO 1 Health Priority for the Cavalier Breed.

I have also recently contacted the the LUPA Researchers in Denmark,asking this question ,and I got the Reply,that yes ,there is every possibilty ,that there could be many ,many Cavaliers now carrying the MVD Gene/Genes.

I also about a couple of months ago got in touch with Professor J Bell ,Geneticist, at Tufts University ,America ,asking him the same question.

His reply was that the only hope the Cavalier Breed has is NOT to Breed from ,as is stated in the Cavalier UK CKCS Breeding Guidelines,before the Cavalier is 2.5 years of age.

LisaT
28th November 2009, 12:01 AM
I am soooo technology challenged. I couldn't figure out how to download from this link. I'm still trying if anyone wants to walk me through it as I'd like to see if the PDF loads more easily than the ones I've saved before.


Originally Posted by RodRussell http://board.cavaliertalk.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?p=344393#post344393)
http://tinyurl.com/ybeg2e2 .

If you go to the link above, it takes you to a page where you can either click on "Read this book", or below it, Download: PDF

If you click on the highlighted PDF, a download dialog box will open up, and you decide to save it to your computer, or open it. It's a 20MB file.

EddyAnne
28th November 2009, 01:46 AM
If you go to the link above, it takes you to a page where you can either click on "Read this book", or below it, Download: PDF

If you click on the highlighted PDF, a download dialog box will open up, and you decide to save it to your computer, or open it. It's a 20MB file.

[/I]
That may appear to be the case where you are in this world, but when viewing that page where I am nowhere does it mention highlighted PDF, and then "Read this book", or below it, Download: PDF. I suppose what can actually be viewed regarding some things and what can be available for download might have something to do with what country you are in and what copyright laws may apply.

I had no problems downloading via the link addresses that Oreo provided.
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Oreo
28th November 2009, 02:03 AM
Thanks LisaT and Eddyanne. I don't seem to get the "read this book" or "download" links. icon_nwunsure I thought I was just observationally challenged until Eddyanne posted, so I'm glad not to be the only one.

Bet
28th November 2009, 10:25 AM
Read the quote about Inflammation of the Brain could be being caused by Inbreeding.

In the early 1980's there was quite a bit of Half Brother to Half Sister Matings taking place in our Cavalier Breed.

The SM Problem is recorded being around at that time.

Could there be a Link in this. Any thoughts?

Yorkysue
28th November 2009, 04:03 PM
I can't find the link to 'read this book either':? and I thought it was just me!

Jay
28th November 2009, 04:43 PM
I can find the download here where I live. It might be a server issue. I am using my hubbie's PC so there is no way I am going to try to download such a huge file. It does look like you can download individual chapters though. I will have to try later on my own trusty Mac. It looks interesting.

J.

Pat
2nd March 2010, 12:24 AM
A panel of leading veterinary cardiologists (Atkins, Bonagura, Ettinger, Fox, Gordon, Haggstrom, Hamlin, Keene, Luis-Fuentes, and Stepien) have just published a Consensus Statement on "Guidelines for the Diagnosis and Treatment of Canine Chronic Valvular Heart Disease." It discusses classifying the degree of progression of MVD -- Stages A, B1, B2, C, and D -- and the types of treatment recommended for each stage.

In the report, Cavaliers are singled out for special attention. For example, every CKCS which does not have an MVD murmur is in the Stage A classification.

The Guidelines are summarized at http://cavalierhealth.org/mitral_valve_disease.htm#ACVIM_Consensus_Statement (or http://tinyurl.com/ycexlj9 for short)

and a pdf of the report is available, for a short time only, at http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/122604679/PDFSTART

Sue - per my answer to your PM, this is the report that you can read that discusses the various stages and treatment for MVD. If the link doesn't work for you, I do have a pdf of the report that I can email directly to your email address if you'll send me another pm.

Pat

RodRussell
4th March 2010, 12:32 AM
Sue - per my answer to your PM, this is the report that you can read that discusses the various stages and treatment for MVD. If the link doesn't work for you, I do have a pdf of the report that I can email directly to your email address if you'll send me another pm.

Pat

Here is a more reliable link to the pdf: http://www.cavalierhealth.org/images/acvim_guidelines_ccvhd_2009.pdf
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Rod Russell