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Bet
28th November 2009, 07:33 PM
The Cavalier World now seems to be halved down the Middle .

Those who want to believe that Cavaliers live to a normal Old Age ,and others who say that there are Serious Health Problems in the Breed, such as SM and MVD.

Is it going to boil down to some Cavalier Breeders having an excuse not to give a Prospective Cavalier Buyer a Health Certificate to show that they Health Check their Cavalier Breeding Stock.

Yorkysue
28th November 2009, 10:22 PM
Bet what you have described are two extremes.

I think however, there are lots of people who are somewhere in-between, myself included; who believe that a lot of cavaliers do live to a decent age, BUT, that the breed does have serious health problems and that anyone who breeds a litter of pups should take this on board. And that they should breed from healthy stock that has been tested clear.

What is most important now, is to try and get prospective puppy purchasers to discard the breeders that do not show health certificates.

The big problem is, that a lot of puppy buyers still buy on a whim, without doing their homework, and also they want to buy a puppy cheaply. Whilst there are buyers like this, there will be breeders that continue to exploit them, sadly.:(

ByFloSin
28th November 2009, 11:00 PM
Thank you for having the common sense to make such a sensible appraisal Sue. I would agree with you one hundred percent.

I am working towards assembling a team to distribute leaflets along the lines you suggest at places such as companion shows where pet owners (no disrespect intended) are likely to be found. Pet shops might also be persuaded to place some leaflets or give them out to customers when purchases are made. Most of us these days have printer/scanners capable of copying and printing out the leaflets, so fund raising at this stage would not be necessary.

I am speaking to at least one of the committee members at Midland CKCS Club at the show next week, so should find out more about the leaflet they are already preparing.

Would you be happy to join such a distribution team Sue? I am also looking for as many other volunteers are possible, so please feel free to PM me with your contact details and let me know which part of the UK you would be able to cover.

Margaret C
29th November 2009, 01:17 AM
Bet what you have described are two extremes.

I think however, there are lots of people who are somewhere in-between, myself included; who believe that a lot of cavaliers do live to a decent age, BUT, that the breed does have serious health problems and that anyone who breeds a litter of pups should take this on board. And that they should breed from healthy stock that has been tested clear.

What is most important now, is to try and get prospective puppy purchasers to discard the breeders that do not show health certificates.

The big problem is, that a lot of puppy buyers still buy on a whim, without doing their homework, and also they want to buy a puppy cheaply. Whilst there are buyers like this, there will be breeders that continue to exploit them, sadly.:(

A really sensible point of view.

I am impressed by the detective work which has shown that a 1990's litter of four survived to the ages of 14, 13. 13, and 12 years respectively. That is what we wish for all our cavaliers and that is what all of us should be working for.

Puppy buyers are the key here. They are the people with the power to make things change simply by asking to see health certificates.

The Kennel Ckub could make much more effort to educate the public and they should make KC registration a 'Gold Standard' by only registering puppies from health tested parents.

At the moment puppy farmers can KC register their puppies however poor their breeding practices.

Bet
29th November 2009, 11:26 AM
If this is in the Pipe-line about a Pamphlet and a mention is made to Prospective Cavalier Buyers that they should be being given a Health Certificate from the Cavalier Breeder showing that that Breeder has Health Tested their Breeding Stock, what a Giant Step Forward for the Future Health of Cavaliers this will be.

Now to Margaret's comments about the Long Lived Litter.

Could I mention ,that probably this is due to the Long Lived Genes those Cavaliers had.

Salador Clown so Happy 12

Ch Homerbrent Bewitched 15 .....Her Dam Ch Homerbrent Samatha 13.5

Ch Homerbrent Caption 15.....his Sire Australian Ch Homerbrent Henry 16

Ch Bredonvale Bernard 12.5....his Litter sister Ch ,Brendonvale Mirabelle 16

Homerbrent Nolana 14

Ch Rosemullion of Ottermouth 13

In Ch Tnegun Charivari 13

Ch Crisdig Merry Matelot 12

Ch Crisdig Celebration 14

Ch Vairire Charmaine of Crisdig 15

Ch Vairire Osiris 13

Rosette of Ottermouth 13

Ch Heidi of Homerbrent 14

Perhaps it's as important for Cavalier Breeders to know about the Long Lived Ancestors in a Cavalier for their Cavalier Breeding Progams ,as has been shown in the Litter Margaret has mentioned.

Jay
29th November 2009, 06:19 PM
So is it just me, or does everyone consider 13 years to be "long lived" for a small dog? I have had mixed breeds all my life. My first dog died at 14 years, the second 14 1/2 and the third at 15 1/2. My mother-in-law's rescued Llasa Apso, who came to live with us after she died, lived to be 16 1/2. With the exception of the little Lhasa, all these dogs were mid to slightly large dogs (45 to 50 lbs or thereabouts.)

"Dog people", not necessarily "cavalier people" are always amazed when I tell them the average life expectancy of these wonderful little dogs....their first response is usually "that short...for a SMALL dog!". I would be interested in knowing what is considered "long lived" for other small breeds.

J.

Margaret C
29th November 2009, 07:07 PM
Cavalier owners consider thirteen long lived.

Tibetan Spaniels, roughly the same size and weight, have a longer life expectancy than cavaliers, but then they don't have MVD endemic in their breed.

Jay
29th November 2009, 07:16 PM
Tibetan Spaniels, roughly the same size and weight, have a longer life expectancy than cavaliers, but then they don't have MVD endemic in their breed.

I guess that is kinda my point....for their size and weight, 12 to 13 years should be the norm, not "long lived".

J.

Oreo
29th November 2009, 09:20 PM
I have owned three hand-me-down small dogs that have passed on. One, unfortunately, was the victim of tainted food and kidney failure, but the other two - 12 and 14 pound mutts that obviously had some spitz or sheltie type behind them - lived to 14 and 16 years of age. I currently have a medium sized mutt (37 pounds) and she will be 17 in February. The other dogs I've owned have been larger and of unknown ages as we took them in as older dogs. One was with us 13 years still after we had rescued him as a young adult.

I have always thought 12 - 14 to be normal ages for death in the smaller breeds, with good care and luck getting you further, but think my idea of "long lived" might be a bit skewed by good experiences in the past.

Bet
30th November 2009, 11:51 AM
I wonder if it would be OK ,since I have just noticed Norma Inglis in her Breed Notes this week is asking for the Names of Long Lived Cavaliers. ,that if I know about any of their Long Lived Ancestors , put them on this List so that List Members might be interested to see if they have any of those Long Lived Cavaliers in their Cavaliers' Pedigree Back-Grounds .

Sabby
30th November 2009, 12:06 PM
Before I had my three Cavaliers I owned a German Shepherd/ Doberman X and a Briard/Poddle X. I had both from puppies and they were rescues. Both lived to nearly 16. My Doberman X was never at the Vets only for her yearly check up and then at the end when she had a stroke at 15. My Briard X had skin allergies and that was it. I had Cavaliers for three years now and I have been to the vet more often in the three years then I was in 15 years with my other two. I love my Cavaliers to bits, I donít think I have ever loved any other dogs as much and that is what makes it so sad. Cavaliers are in my eyes the most loving and loyal breed you can have. They give you more love then you ever can return and unfortunately this is a breed that suffers so much with health problems and have such a short live expectancy. Like when my vet found Ebonies heart murmur and her only being 2 Ĺ years old, he just said well itís a cavalier.

Mindysmom
30th November 2009, 01:43 PM
My parents mini daschund lived to 16 but the quality of life he had in his last three years (when I saw him) was not what I would want for myself. Our Golden died last fall at 11. Despite being from a reputable responsible breeder he was plagued with minor health problems most of his life and more serious problems (seizures/kidney failure) in the last year. He finally died of what we believe to be a very quick growing cancer (he had blood tests done two weeks before he died which all came back normal - we were even managing his kidney levels well). He did manage to avoid all the breed specific problems though.

At nearly 12 Mindy has dry eye in one eye that is well managed, has had to have many teeth removed, and is now struggling with a large swollen lymph node that we have ruled pretty much everything out that the vets can think of. I think most of her issues are age related not breed related. Still, she is aging and based on her size is considered geriatric on the chart at the vets office so she is likely to have some issues.

Bet
30th November 2009, 06:58 PM
I had given some of the Long Lived Cavaliers in the Cavalier Litter mentioned by Margaret.

I forgot to mention , this might be of a wee bit of interest to some on this List.

It will be seen that there are a number of Homaranne and Homerbrent Cavaliers in the Pedigree Background.

Many years ago when I was collecting the Ages of Long Lived Cavaliers, I was speaking to Mrs M Coaker,who owned Ch Homaranne Caption, but her Daughter Bred him .

I had noticed that Ch Homaranne Caption was in the Pedigree Background of so many other Long Lived Cavaliers, and mentioned this to Mrs M Coaker ,and she told me she had always given her In-Whelp Bitches, Vitamin E.

Could this be a reason for the Longevity of some of the Homaranne and Homerbrent Cavaliers.

I do know that some of our Cavaliers who were suffering from Heart Trouble ,our Vet prescribed Vitamin E for them.

Karlin
30th November 2009, 07:03 PM
I too think it is pretty sad that 12 or 13 or 14 qualifies as 'long-lived' in a small breed. For most toy breeds 14 or so is the AVERAGE lifespan. For cavaliers, 10 is the generally agreed standard. Some consider it far shorter.

Most of my friends with small breeds routinely have these dogs til 14 or so with many reaching well over that. :(

How ironic that the giant breed Pyrenean Mountain Dog that I grew up with lived to 13 -- and only once in her long healthy life ever needed an unexpected trip to the vet (due to a minor accident, not a general health issue).

Puppy buyers have a lot of power to make things change by demanding breeders that are health focused, researching carefully, asking for health certs, and only buying from those breeders.

Bet
30th November 2009, 07:48 PM
Yes Karlin,

As you say it is the Cavalier Puppy Buyers who are now going to change the Future of our Cavalier Breed by asking for Health Certificates from Cavalier Breeders about their Cavalier Breeding Stock.

I am getting a wee bit bemused now about all the Talk of Cavaliers living to a normal Old Age.

I think I will be the only Cavalier Owner who has collected the Agesof Long Lived Cavaliers.

I have mentioned that I have a List in the Kennel Club Library of around 2,000 12 years upwards, but it has to be remembered this List goes back to Ch Daywell Roger ,born 7-10-45, he lived to 12 years of age.

There a number of Cavaliers in the List who have lived to 14 -15- 16, so they must have been passing down those Longevity Genes to their Off-Springs through the Generations, so I just can't see why some of to-days' Cavalier Breeders can claim that they are now Breeding Long Lived Cavaliers.

It surely is the Longevity Genes that their Cavaliers are Carrying from their Long Lived Ancestors I would have thought, that are coming through to their Cavaliers of to-day.

ByFloSin
1st December 2009, 12:17 AM
I had given some of the Long Lived Cavaliers in the Cavalier Litter mentioned by Margaret.

I forgot to mention , this might be of a wee bit of interest to some on this List.

It will be seen that there are a number of Homaranne and Homerbrent Cavaliers in the Pedigree Background.

Many years ago when I was collecting the Ages of Long Lived Cavaliers, I was speaking to Mrs M Coaker,who owned Ch Homaranne Caption, but her Daughter Bred him .

I had noticed that Ch Homaranne Caption was in the Pedigree Background of so many other Long Lived Cavaliers, and mentioned this to Mrs M Coaker ,and she told me she had always given her In-Whelp Bitches, Vitamin E.

Could this be a reason for the Longevity of some of the Homaranne and Homerbrent Cavaliers.

I do know that some of our Cavaliers who were suffering from Heart Trouble ,our Vet prescribed Vitamin E for them.

My foundation stud was a Homeranne Caption grandson on both sides of his pedigree and his breeding partner was also a Caption grand daughter. Angus lived to 16 yrs 10 mths and Emma to 15. Angus had a grade 5 murmour diagnosed when he was 7 or 8 but Emma was clear for the whole of her life.

I kept 2 of their daughters. Victoria was diagnosed with an arythmic beat at 12 yrs but had to be euthenased at 13 yrs 6 mths because of frequently recurring fits.

Easter was mvd clear up to age 12 when she developed a barely audible grade 1 murmour. She lived without treatment until 15.

All of the above had 200 ius of Vitamin E daily, combined with sensible weight control, plenty of exercise and unlimited amounts of love and care, as do my present dogs.

My foundation pair were tightly line bred, lived long and healthy lives and produced similarly healthy and long lived offspring. Now we are told line breeding is the author of all misfortunes. May I be forgiven for wondering whether we have thrown the babies out with the bath water.

EddyAnne
1st December 2009, 09:48 AM
From what I have read it appears that the vexed question of inbreeding has been discussed or disputed going back for a 100 years. In recent years it appears that the KC were involved in an Inbreeding Research Study by allowing access to the KC Pedigree Database and amongst the Researchers names I noted KC's Geneticist Jeff Sampson was involved. The Published Research Paper is at this link address and where I noted the following.
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/179/1/593.pdf

"We have found that the loss of genetic diversity is very high, with many breeds losing .90% of singleton variants in just six generations. On the basis of these results, we concur with Leroy et al. (2006) that remedial action to maintain or increase genetic diversity should now be a high priority in the interests of the health of purebred dogs. Possible remedial action includes limits on the use of popular sires, encouragement of matings across national and continental boundaries, and even the relaxation of breed rules to permit controlled outcrossing."

It appears that the KC then considered various options and decided on the following where they amended Regulations, and I think there maybe more studies in years to come to assess inbreeding and where there might be more Regulation amendments.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=2316

The Kennel Club
Amendments to B Regulations

At its meeting on 6th January 2009, the General Committee agreed amendments to Regulation B22c. The underlined amendment is effective for matings taken place on or after 1st March 2009.

B22c
The General Committee will not accept an application to register a litter when:-

(1) The dam has already whelped six litters, or

(2) The dam has already reached the age of 8 years at the date of whelping, or

(3) The dam was under one year old at the time of mating, or

(4) The offspring are the result of any mating between father and daughter, mother and son or brother and sister, save in exceptional circumstances or for scientifically proven welfare reasons.

Relief from the restriction set out in 22c(2) may be considered by the General Committee normally provided application is made prior to the mating, and the proposed dam has previously whelped at least one other registered litter. Any such application must be supported by veterinary evidence as to the suitability of the bitch involved in the proposed whelping.
.

Bet
1st December 2009, 11:19 AM
Thanks Flo for the information.

Could I go off with another thought again?

What I wonder is, if the Cavaliers being mentioned in the Past living to 15 plus years, were not Cavalier Carriers of the MVD Genes or were fewer of them who were Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes.

That could be back to 1993 or 1994.

Now because both the UK CKCS CLUB have said that the NO 1 Health Priority in Cavaliers is MVD,and the Kennel Club have said it is the Biggest Killer for the Cavalier Breed ,maybe the reason for those Statements is because of the amount of Cavalier MVD Carriers around to-day.

I mentioned about maybe having as many Long Lived Ancestors in the Cavaliers' Back-ground as possible ,but perhaps of more importance is Cavalier Breeders abiding by the CKCS CLUB's Breeding Guide-lines for MVD, and waiting till a Cavalier is 2.5 years before being Bred from.

I think it is a different Ball Game for Cavaliers now ,both for MVD and SM.

Finally I have just read that this disturbing remark ,that it could be possible for a Cavalier Owner to with-hold the Heart Information on the CKCS Heart Form from going onto the Heart Data -Base.

Surely no Cavalier Owner will be doing this. !