PDA

View Full Version : Is it wrong to offer a prize for a health tested veteran cavalier?



Margaret C
7th December 2009, 05:35 PM
An interesting discussion has been taking place on CavalierChat, where Mark Marshall has upset breeders by offering a cash prize for a class of veteran cavaliers ( over 7 years old ) that have been MRI'd free of SM and have no heart murmur.
They do not seem to appreciate his generous offer.

As Mark said.....

"In my ignorance I actually thought that a senior dog, within the Breed Standard - without a syrinx or a murmur would be desireable to many".

The reasons given for the objections are interesting..........
"lets hope the poor old souls have good hearts or the greedy may drag out oldies just to get the money

Strange remark considering Mark's offer was originally made on a thread where breeders had just been congratulating a twelve year old for winning best veteran at Midland Counties. Interesting too that they, themselves, are running a scheme to give small cash prizes for veterans at all the major shows.

Slightly worrying is this comment by a cavalier health representative.......
"I don't know many people that would want to put an elderly dog under heavy sedation or anaesthetic to win 200 even with a good heart!!"

Is seven really that old in a cavalier? In most breeds a seven year old dog would not be considered elderly. At Crufts I have seen twelve year old border collies competing in flyball competitions.

One poster says.......
"he's hoping it's going to be a male that wins, then he can use it at stud! The 200 will be part of the stud fee ...

A crass and ungracious reply to a generous offer. I would imagine a lot of people would be interested in such a dog, and the snide remark about the stud fee would seem to be pure malice, as it would appear to be a no-strings-attached offer.

Another poster............
"It's not about silly gimmicks such as your 200 quid fiasco."

200 is serious money, nothing silly about an amount like that.
I think you could describe it as putting your money where your mouth is, and there are not many people prepared to do that.

It appears these health conscious breeders have all decided that Mark should donate the money to research, despite a very sensible post which said.......

"It could be a great PR opportunity to showcase the best of veteran stock.
Obviously it wouldn't want to eclipse or detract from the winning dogs on the day who merit the acclaim on their big day out...but there's possibly something in the idea worth exploring surely.
So what if someone is interested in using an older dog at stud??
If these old boys came to general notice and still had something useful to contribute to someone's breeding programme,then why not?
I'm a bit surprised that a very real positive PR opportunity is being dismissed.
On the other hand does anyone think that such a dog doesn't actually exist?
I asked someone a while back about older heart clear scanned cavaliers.
The reply was "there have been more reported sightings of a Yeti, me dear"

I suspect that the last sentence goes to the core of the objections.
It is not that these older dogs don't exist, I know of one ( pet owned, scanned, nine year old, no murmur, no SM ) but because breeders will not scan their older cavaliers.

Love my Cavaliers
7th December 2009, 06:05 PM
I also have an oldie (a neutered male) who will be 9 years old in March who was just MRI'd this past week (for disc problems and nerve compression in his neck) and had a check by the cardiologist before his scan because of his age. The results - No evidence of SM or a heart murmur! Unfortunately, he is from a backyard breeder who has never returned any of my calls or e-mails. I say unfortunately, because when I got him I knew nothing about the prevalence of MVD or SM in the breed and of course the breeder just wanted my money to keep pumping out more puppies. I never even got papers for him. But, I'm happy to have an oldie who has scanned clear and has been evaluated by a cardiologist and is murmur free.

WoodHaven
7th December 2009, 06:13 PM
An interesting discussion has been taking place on CavalierChat, where Mark Marshall has upset breeders by offering a cash prize for a class of veteran cavaliers ( over 7 years old ) that have been MRI'd free of SM and have no heart murmur.
They do not seem to appreciate his generous offer.

As Mark said.....

"In my ignorance I actually thought that a senior dog, within the Breed Standard - without a syrinx or a murmur would be desireable to many".

The reasons given for the objections are interesting..........
"lets hope the poor old souls have good hearts or the greedy may drag out oldies just to get the money

Strange remark considering Mark's offer was originally made on a thread where breeders had just been congratulating a twelve year old for winning best veteran at Midland Counties. Interesting too that they, themselves, are running a scheme to give small cash prizes for veterans at all the major shows.

Slightly worrying is this comment by a cavalier health representative.......
"I don't know many people that would want to put an elderly dog under heavy sedation or anaesthetic to win 200 even with a good heart!!"

Is seven really that old in a cavalier? In most breeds a seven year old dog would not be considered elderly. At Crufts I have seen twelve year old border collies competing in flyball competitions.

One poster says.......
"he's hoping it's going to be a male that wins, then he can use it at stud! The 200 will be part of the stud fee ...

A crass and ungracious reply to a generous offer. I would imagine a lot of people would be interested in such a dog, and the snide remark about the stud fee would seem to be pure malice, as it would appear to be a no-strings-attached offer.

Another poster............
"It's not about silly gimmicks such as your 200 quid fiasco."

200 is serious money, nothing silly about an amount like that.
I think you could describe it as putting your money where your mouth is, and there are not many people prepared to do that.

It appears these health conscious breeders have all decided that Mark should donate the money to research, despite a very sensible post which said.......

"It could be a great PR opportunity to showcase the best of veteran stock.
Obviously it wouldn't want to eclipse or detract from the winning dogs on the day who merit the acclaim on their big day out...but there's possibly something in the idea worth exploring surely.
So what if someone is interested in using an older dog at stud??
If these old boys came to general notice and still had something useful to contribute to someone's breeding programme,then why not?
I'm a bit surprised that a very real positive PR opportunity is being dismissed.
On the other hand does anyone think that such a dog doesn't actually exist?
I asked someone a while back about older heart clear scanned cavaliers.
The reply was "there have been more reported sightings of a Yeti, me dear"

I suspect that the last sentence goes to the core of the objections.
It is not that these older dogs don't exist, I know of one ( pet owned, scanned, nine year old, no murmur, no SM ) but because breeders will not scan their older cavaliers.

I am sure that if people wanted to read the WHOLE story that they are perfectly capable of going to Cavalier Chat and seeing both sides. Tattling like This just seems so juvenile.

Margaret C
7th December 2009, 07:00 PM
I am sure that if people wanted to read the WHOLE story that they are perfectly capable of going to Cavalier Chat and seeing both sides. This just seems so juvenile.

It is a little bit confusing because the thread has been split in two, but for those interested..........

http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1545&page=2

http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1549

I agree, they are very juvenile. You would think they would be grateful and work with Mark to see how the thing could be arranged.

There was a similar offer made by two Cavalier Club Members a year or so ago. That was rejected as well.

harleyfarley
7th December 2009, 07:09 PM
They arnt interested because most of them havent got a dog that would win, the few that have prob arnt bothered about winning, they have the best gift of all. di

sins
7th December 2009, 07:14 PM
I don't think it's wrong at all to offer a prize for a health tested veteran cavalier.
After all, the Cavalier breed itself was created in the pursuit of a prize offered by Mr Roswell Eldridge:).
I guess it's really down to the exhibitors who own cavaliers which might fit the criteria. Are they prepared to give them a day out?
Sins

Bet
7th December 2009, 07:29 PM
Sandy,

I was shocked at some of the Mickey Taking ,Snide Comments made to Mark.

Does this not prove that there should be a Cavalier List now of Cavaliers who have been MRI Scanned and Heart Tested.

There is an excellent Letter in this week's DOG WORLD,mentioning that the the TOP STUD Cavalier awards are based on solely on an Animal's ability to throw Show Winning Progeny, Health does not seem to be a Factor.

I am not sure about these facts ,but the Top Ten to 20 Cavalier Sires in the Cavalier Breed for the past 5 or 10 years ,very few are on the Cavalier's Club over 5 Heart Clear List,and even fewer are Listed as having been MRI Scanned.

The Letter Writer goes onto say ,just how rare it is in Cavaliers to find Stud Dog Heart Clear and SM Clear over 5 years of Age.

WoodHaven
7th December 2009, 07:49 PM
Sandy,

I was shocked at some of the Mickey Taking ,Snide Comments made to Mark.

Does this not prove that there should be a Cavalier List now of Cavaliers who have been MRI Scanned and Heart Tested.

There is an excellent Letter in this week's DOG WORLD,mentioning that the the TOP STUD Cavalier awards are based on solely on an Animal's ability to throw Show Winning Progeny, Health does not seem to be a Factor.

I am not sure about these facts ,but the Top Ten to 20 Cavalier Sires in the Cavalier Breed for the past 5 or 10 years ,very few are on the Cavalier's Club over 5 Heart Clear List,and even fewer are Listed as having been MRI Scanned.

The Letter Writer goes onto say ,just how rare it is in Cavaliers to find Stud Dog Heart Clear and SM Clear over 5 years of Age.

I have no idea what a "mickey taking snide comment is", so I'll pass on that. I assume you read the whole spiel -- there comments made on both sides-- no offense intended. Please!

I have no problem getting the information on health tests on the dogs I want to use. None. I don't know if a list of heart and MRI'd clear dogs will help you at all BET. You don't even own one do you?

Top Stud dog is very explicit in what it means-- number of progeny that have done well at shows. YOU can't change what it means because you think you know BETter.

How many MRI's is enough for you?? Many of the breeders I know doing them are doing them young-- why put the money to championing a dog if it isn't clear as a pup? Then another before it's bred? Then another after 6-- or now even later???

sins
7th December 2009, 08:34 PM
I don't believe it's a matter of how many MRIs Bet or anyone else wants.
The researchers are interested in older cavaliers without a syrinx,because they obviously feel they may yield some useful information.It stands to reason that some breeders would have such cavaliers in their kennels.
Scans in the Uk are cheap,about $200 approx.
Roughly the price of a pair of shoes,some highlights at the hairdressers or a nice handbag.
A dog who is clear of a syrinx at 18 months may not be at four or six years so if a veteran scans clear of a syrinx or even herniation it's a big deal at the moment.
I'd love to see breeders who have websites highlighting their old healthy cavaliers. It's a real shot in the arm for the breed and subtly generates confidence in the future of the breed.
There's nothing at all wrong either in continuing business as usual with dogshows and awards for top stud dogs.It's all part of the chain of business which allows us to buy a cavalier which might actually look like a cavalier!!
But at the same time,it's perfectly valid to identify and try to utilise the healthy older stock for breeding and to ensure that their DNA is not unnecessarily lost to the genepool by assisting research.Research may be hampered if people don't offer their dogs.No point throwing money at researchers if they don't have the raw materials to work with.

Sins

WoodHaven
7th December 2009, 09:30 PM
I don't believe it's a matter of how many MRIs Bet or anyone else wants.
The researchers are interested in older cavaliers without a syrinx,because they obviously feel they may yield some useful information.It stands to reason that some breeders would have such cavaliers in their kennels.
Scans in the Uk are cheap,about $200 approx.
Roughly the price of a pair of shoes,some highlights at the hairdressers or a nice handbag.
A dog who is clear of a syrinx at 18 months may not be at four or six years so if a veteran scans clear of a syrinx or even herniation it's a big deal at the moment.
I'd love to see breeders who have websites highlighting their old healthy cavaliers. It's a real shot in the arm for the breed and subtly generates confidence in the future of the breed.
There's nothing at all wrong either in continuing business as usual with dogshows and awards for top stud dogs.It's all part of the chain of business which allows us to buy a cavalier which might actually look like a cavalier!!
But at the same time,it's perfectly valid to identify and try to utilise the healthy older stock for breeding and to ensure that their DNA is not unnecessarily lost to the genepool by assisting research.Research may be hampered if people don't offer their dogs.No point throwing money at researchers if they don't have the raw materials to work with.

Sins

MRI's here for SM are a minimum of 1000.00 and I have to fly to Washington state. They are 1800-2200. USD now here in my area. I just can't EvER see doing 2 or 3 on one dog. Very invasive too.

Wow things are truly different where I live. I've never spent more than 75 USD on shoes and highlights at Mario Tricoci (nice) is about 85 dollars.

sins
7th December 2009, 09:43 PM
I know, an Mri scan in Ireland is 1200...which equates to the price of an entire litter. That's why I think if any solution is to be found it'll come from the UK.It puts into perspective the fine achievement of putting the low cost scanning schemes into operation...
Sins

Murphy
7th December 2009, 09:55 PM
This post is not worthy of you Margaret.
Elspeth

Margaret C
7th December 2009, 11:42 PM
This post is not worthy of you Margaret.
Elspeth

Elspeth,

I have great respect for you, but it is not for you to tell me what I should, or should not, write.

If I was able to debate this question with those that were so dismissive, rude, and patronising on CavalierChat I would, but I was removed from that forum a while ago with no reason given.

Mark made a generous offer. His suggestion of encouraging and rewarding health tested veteran cavaliers is exactly what we all should be supporting.

Identifying older, heart clear, SM free, stud dogs would be enormously helpful for breeders that want to try and breed for healthier puppies.
Older SM free cavaliers of both sex are vitally important for the gene research.

frecklesmom
8th December 2009, 01:31 AM
I could be way off base, but I could see the public benefiting from a publicized award . It would be one more way to educate the importance of healthy dogs.

Murphy
8th December 2009, 01:42 AM
Elspeth,

I have great respect for you, but it is not for you to tell me what I should, or should not, write.

I merely made an observation, based on what I know of you, as a person.
I was disappointed by what I saw as an attempt to resurrect the acrimony between the Forums, which we could do all do without.

If I was able to debate this question with those that were so dismissive, rude, and patronising on CavalierChat I would, but I was removed from that forum a while ago with no reason given.

This topic could have been most interesting to many folks in both Forums; indeed, there were some interesting and informed points raised, but I am afraid we have lost any chance of balanced debate now.

Mark made a generous offer. His suggestion of encouraging and rewarding health tested veteran cavaliers is exactly what we all should be supporting.

Mark's suggestion was, I am sure, a genuine one. Not his fault that he is unaware of the advance warning required for a Show/ extra classes to be set up. Such decisions are made well in advance of the event. To those of us who have Show Secretary/Committee experience, his idea probably seemed somewhat naive - again not his fault.
However, I am sure that Mark is perfectly able to speak for himself on this or any matter.

Identifying older, heart clear, SM free, stud dogs would be enormously helpful for breeders that want to try and breed for healthier puppies.
Older SM free cavaliers of both sex are vitally important for the gene research.


That goes without saying.

Elspeth

Mindysmom
8th December 2009, 04:13 AM
This will probably sound really selfish but I couldn't imagine putting an asymptomatic non-breeding senior dog under anaesthetic for an MRI. I understand that it would be helpful for research but it is not risk free for the dog particularly an older dog. I am a basket case each time I have to have a dog put under and never do it without discussing the pros and cons of the procedure with the vet first.

Bet
8th December 2009, 11:03 AM
Could I just be allowed to answer Sandy ,

Why is always said to me that I should have no interest in Our Cavalier Breed now that we have no longer any Cavaliers.

I am just at this moment looking around the Room where all my Cavalier Information is,there are over well 100 Folders of Cavalier Information that I have collected through-out the years, also,I would guess over 1,000 Cavalier pedigrees ,all that I have Hand Written,.

I t's not often I make a Derogatory Remark to make a Personal Comment ,but this Time ,Sandy ,you have pushed my patience to it's Limit.

I will take no Lectures from You , and when you have as much Knowledge as I have about the Cavalier Breed ,then I might listen to you.

So just Back Off.

Sorry Karlin. ..for Blowing My Top.

MARK MARSHALL
8th December 2009, 01:43 PM
Now you owe me an apology !

All I did was offer an amount of money for 'Veterans' following a post by Norma.

I never said that it was for next week or any given date in particular.

It was just a proposal for those with more knowledge to consider and give feedback on - nothing more.

So why you want to use words like 'NAIVE' and put me down, is no more than you repeatedly tell others NOT TO DO !

Personally I dont want to know about the organising of shows etc. I leave that to those that do. Everyone to their own. I just enjoy showing.

Mark.

WoodHaven
8th December 2009, 02:43 PM
Could I just be allowed to answer Sandy ,

Why is always said to me that I should have no interest in Our Cavalier Breed now that we have no longer any Cavaliers.

I am just at this moment looking around the Room where all my Cavalier Information is,there are over well 100 Folders of Cavalier Information that I have collected through-out the years, also,I would guess over 1,000 Cavalier pedigrees ,all that I have Hand Written,.

I t's not often I make a Derogatory Remark to make a Personal Comment ,but this Time ,Sandy ,you have pushed my patience to it's Limit.

I will take no Lectures from You , and when you have as much Knowledge as I have about the Cavalier Breed ,then I might listen to you.

So just Back Off.

Sorry Karlin. ..for Blowing My Top.

NEVER did I say that you should have no interest in cavaliers... NEVER... I just really don't know what YOU are going to do with ANOTHER list of cavalier with clear hearts and Now MRI's. It was an HONEST question. WHAT are you going to do with it=== except make another file??

What good have those 1000 files done anyone-- definitely not done you any good. Here in America, we have the CHIC Database, OFA, CERF, our SCTA Database for CA, DNA testing for vonWillenbrand' s types 1-4 etc...

What I might do with it is use it towards choosing a sire for one of my bitches. I'd have a legitimate use and I don't need one.
Here

If this one question runs you into this much of a tizzy-- whoa

Murphy
8th December 2009, 03:34 PM
Now you owe me an apology !

All I did was offer an amount of money for 'Veterans' following a post by Norma.

I never said that it was for next week or any given date in particular.

It might be an idea to check what you said in your first post. You wrote March 2010 which allowed not enough time for your suggestion to be taken up before that Show.

It was just a proposal for those with more knowledge to consider and give feedback on - nothing more.

So why you want to use words like 'NAIVE' and put me down, is no more than you repeatedly tell others NOT TO DO !

I think you know full well that I did NOT say you were naive. We have never met, so I have no opinion to express.
I was, as you know, referring to your post. There was no attempt whatsoever to 'put you down'.
As you have pointed out,I do not work that way.

Personally I dont want to know about the organising of shows etc. I leave that to those that do. Everyone to their own. I just enjoy showing.

Mark.

In that case, when you make a suggestion about a Show, you have to take the advice of those who do.
Elspeth

Bet
8th December 2009, 07:31 PM
Just to say to the Others on the List,sorry I Blew a Gasket this Morning, you Folk have enough Worries with your Cavaliers suffering from SM and MVD,with-out having to read a Rant from Me !!

I will never allow my-self to be Baited again. .....No matter what is said to me.

Hope-fully at the End of the Day ,all the Cavalier Information and Cavalier Pedigrees that I have worked on, which was a Labour of Love, will go into the Cavalier Club Archives

WoodHaven
8th December 2009, 07:40 PM
This will probably sound really selfish but I couldn't imagine putting an asymptomatic non-breeding senior dog under anaesthetic for an MRI. I understand that it would be helpful for research but it is not risk free for the dog particularly an older dog. I am a basket case each time I have to have a dog put under and never do it without discussing the pros and cons of the procedure with the vet first.

I understand your position completely and agree. My daughter worked as a vet tech for over 7 years and things HAPPEN. The advantages have to be worth the risk. I've learned to scale teeth so I don't have to put my dogs under for teeth cleaning (at least not as often).

Margaret C
8th January 2010, 03:30 PM
:updte:

Mark Marshall made an offer to donate 200 as a prize for a health tested veteran.

His criteria.........

"the dog/bitch must be a Veteran and have been MRI scanned, free of a syrinx and have no heart murmur.

I want this winning specimen to be an example to all of us !

Champions most welcome.

200 guaranteed if more than six (6) dogs are judged and their certificates must prove that the dog was clear of MVD and SM aged 7 years or older."

The offer was eventually taken up and one breeder in particular spent a lot of time working out possible ways to make this work.

But, over the course of an interesting and illustrative discussion, the breeders have argued for a change of concept........ from that of a competitive class of cavaliers that have all clear health certificates and are true to type, to a parade of any veteran that has been health tested.

They argue it is not fair to pick out the ultra healthy for special notice although of course the nature of dog shows allows the ultra pretty to take the prizes.

Any one that health tests their cavaliers are to be congratulated and to have a dog fail will happen to all of us, but Mark's idea, I believe ( and I know he will soon make it known if I am wrong ) was to celebrate and make known these special dogs that are so important to the future of this breed.

It makes me wonder how many breeders are having their older dogs tested and how many are actually showing up as being clear of both SM & heart murmur?
If it is as few as their reaction to Mark's offer suggests, then that is something we should all be taking very seriously.