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View Full Version : Pedigree Dogs Exposed on Today Show tomorrow



Karlin
8th December 2009, 08:39 PM
At 7:30am ET/PT in the US, you can view advanced clips from the film and there will then be a discussion on the Today Show (one of the main US morning national news programmes) tomorrow, WEDNESDAY the 9th.

The documentary itself airs at 8pm ET/PT on BBC America on THURSDAY the 10th (cable -- carried in most major cable packages in the US).

EddyAnne
8th December 2009, 11:24 PM
OFCOM have still NOT Published their findings regarding the complaints lodged against the PDE documentary and here is the BBC still televising the documentary.

This is interesting about BBC America and the following from this address.
http://www.press.bbcamerica.com/press/corporateoverview.jsp

PARENT COMPANY:
BBC AMERICA is a product of BBC Television, creator of BBC ONE and BBC TWO in the UK, and BBC Worldwide, the commercial arm of the BBC. BBC Worldwide is Europe’s largest exporter of television programs and a major international broadcaster, publisher and co-producer.

OWNERSHIP:
BBC AMERICA is wholly owned and editorially controlled by the BBC.
.

Karlin
9th December 2009, 12:42 AM
Just a clarification -- the documentary is showing at 7pm central time on Thursday night, but 8pm ET/PT.

Karlin
9th December 2009, 11:34 PM
Today Show segment was rescheduled to 7:40 am tomorrow (Thursday) morning. Same day the show itself will run. :thmbsup:

Shay
10th December 2009, 05:49 AM
I had my DVR set for Wed morning, but it was not on. Had already set my DVR for Thurs. morning before reading this, just in case. Also set for the BBC program. Thanks for this info. :thmbsup:

frecklesmom
10th December 2009, 02:59 PM
If you miss the show, you'll find it here. Very well done :thmbsup:.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/34360778#34360778

Clairelou
10th December 2009, 04:14 PM
Can I ask our American brothers and sisters to keep us updated on the impressions this documentary leaves on America, here's hoping as many as possible watch it :thmbsup:

Karlin
10th December 2009, 05:33 PM
Wow, hard-hitting Today Show segment! Hope the show gets a wide viewership and these issues are debated in the US and by the AKC as well.

Think tonight's programme is edited down by 10 min or so to fit in with US commercials... :rolleyes: Always a hassle that an hour on TV is really more like 50 minutes in the US due to running ads.

Bet
10th December 2009, 07:23 PM
Could I mention I have just watched this Program on on the Today Show.

There was mention again about the Cavaliers' Head being too Small for their Brains.

The Professor who was being interviewed ,said that how this has happened is because of Breeding for a Particular Skull Shape for a Cavalier can ,as has been seen, have devastating consequences .

He also mentioned about the Dangers of In- Breeding, I will repeat again,..

In the early 1980's there was quite a bit of Half-Brother to Half Sister Matings taking place in our Cavalier Breed.I have a number of Cavalier Pedigrees to prove this.

In the 1970's there was matings between Father to Daughter and Mother to Son also taking place.I also have those Cavalier Pedigrees.

The lady who was interviewing the Professor ,when she mentioned the SM Problem in our Cavalier Breed ,was so shocked and distressed about the Suffering it was causing Cavaliers.

I think that as a result now ,after the full PDE Program is viewed in America, and seeing how SM is affecting Cavaliers ,the Public will be as shocked as the Interviewer was.

Bet
10th December 2009, 07:35 PM
I forgot to say that the Close Breeding Pedigrees I have ,are NOT from Puppy Farmers,but CKCS CLUB Breeders.I don't know whether it is still going on to-day ,I don't get the KC Breed Supplements any-more.

Also Dr C, Rusbridge, Neurologist ,at the beginning of her interview for the TODAY Program, also stated that the Cavalier Heads are too Small for their Brains.

It sure made interesting viewing for me.

Oreo
10th December 2009, 08:04 PM
I forgot to say that the Close Breeding Pedigrees I have ,are NOT from Puppy Farmers,but CKCS CLUB Breeders.I don't know whether it is still going on to-day ,I don't get the KC Breed Supplements any-more.

Also Dr C, Rusbridge, Neurologist ,at the beginning of her interview for the TODAY Program, also stated that the Cavalier Heads are too Small for their Brains.

It sure made interesting viewing for me.

Bet I have had a good look at the pedigree databases, and have now kept track of full sibling breedings with Ch parents, some dual champs, in the UK, Canada, and the USA, right up until 2007. Some of these offspring are championed themselves.

There are also many half sibling breedings easily found since the year 2000.

These, however, are not the norm. Over the last 20 years breeders seem to be going toward much lower COIs. Unfortunately a "0" COI does not help if the inbreeding or linebreeding in the past has caused difficulty through the breed, even if we know it was done with good intention.

Depth of pedigree and the OPEN sharing of health knowledge as far back as possible becomes ultimately more important.

Oreo

mckcomplex
10th December 2009, 09:08 PM
As an American (and one living in the South!), I can say that almost no one here has any idea of how bad the situation has become with pedigree dogs.

I will, however, be keeping a close watch on the reactions of my friends (and maybe even showing them myself, as I have my roommate) and report back to you what I have seen. I think this show will rock their previously unrocked boats.

cy1266
10th December 2009, 10:02 PM
I saw the segment on the Today Show this morning...I had forgotten that it was airing tonight, so I set my DVR to record it. I volunteer with a local Cavalier rescue, so I sent out an email to that group as well, letting them know about the documentary. I also sent out an email to everyone I know that has a Cavalier. It will be interesting to see peoples' reactions...

waldor
10th December 2009, 10:08 PM
PDE is airing on BBC America Channel here in the U.S., which is only available around here on cable or satellite TV. Not all cable TV customers get the channel, though, as one has to pay extra for a 'digital' package and the receiver box. Even with the satellite TV providers, BBC America is usually in an upgraded package. ~sighs~

Yorkysue
10th December 2009, 10:13 PM
Bet I have had a good look at the pedigree databases, and have now kept track of full sibling breedings with Ch parents, some dual champs, in the UK, Canada, and the USA, right up until 2007. Some of these offspring are championed themselves.

There are also many half sibling breedings easily found since the year 2000.

These, however, are not the norm. Over the last 20 years breeders seem to be going toward much lower COIs. Unfortunately a "0" COI does not help if the inbreeding or linebreeding in the past has caused difficulty through the breed, even if we know it was done with good intention.

Depth of pedigree and the OPEN sharing of health knowledge as far back as possible becomes ultimately more important.

Oreo

You say you have kept track of full sibling breeding in UK Canada and USA. I must admit I am unaware of any Ch Cavaliers in the UK that are full sibling breeding. This had also been questioned on the CC Forum.

Can you be more specific re the UK Champions to which you are referring that are the result of a FULL SIBLING mating?

Thank you.

EddyAnne
10th December 2009, 11:53 PM
These, however, are not the norm. Over the last 20 years breeders seem to be going toward much lower COIs. Unfortunately a "0" COI does not help if the inbreeding or linebreeding in the past has caused difficulty through the breed, even if we know it was done with good intention.

In Australia the University of Sydney has access to our ANKC National Pedigree Database where one of the research projects is to look into the coefficient of inbreeding, and so far the early indications from the Research is that we have a low COI in Australia, and where this to some may show purebred dogs in a positive light in Australia. BUT keep in mind that we do have MVD and CM/SM in Australia this as the hereditary genes for these are in Australia.
.

Karlin
11th December 2009, 01:54 AM
Can you be more specific re the UK Champions to which you are referring that are the result of a FULL SIBLING mating?


If people wish to exchange names of dogs PRIVATELY that is fine but I will not allow names of dogs to be posted here unless someone can show me the pedigrees first. Please return and read the Getting Started section on what is OK to post, please, if you are unsure why.

But maybe I will allow such a post, if the people on CC and their pals who keep insisting they know about matings of A dogs, two generation As and 3 generation As 'on both sides' producing affected puppies... reveal who are these breeders, who are the dogs, and who read the scans? So far the people, dogs, breeders and neurologists remain unnamed but the people posting typically will claim to have seen the MRIs or heard this from someone who said they talked to someone who saw the scans... :rolleyes: An occasional anomaly would be expected anyway as people will know basic high school genetics, yet the same folks claim that the dozens of puppies, and several generations of scans now, from groups like the Dutch breeders which clearly indicate that As produce many As while low grades produce few to none, are dismissed. Gee, one or two cases, against dozens and dozens of puppies?

To me sibling matings are of diddly squat importance compared to the fact that there are breeders on those sites -- and they know full well who they are -- lying about what they do regarding their own health testing and breeding programmes, who routinely mate untested stud dogs under 18 months (which are, as a US breeder has rightly pointed out, *still puppies* that would compete in *puppy class* so why are they being mated at this age?) as well as getting litters off of underage females, then refuse to support research into SM (but why not, when they pay lip service to the MVD protocol but don't follow it as well and don't care if their breeder friends follow it). Or they test at a year or 18 months when such tests are fairly meaningless (how many cavaliers have hearts murmurs at age 1 or 2?).

And as more than one breeder on CC has pointed out -- so many who have scanned make posts claiming many clear dogs and great scans -- but where are these dogs? Is everyone hiding them so that the breed is further damaged? People say the SM and MVD guidelines might reduce genetic diversity, but oddly :rolleyes: the exact same people hide away their results (of all those great clear dogs, eh?) and clearly pressure others to do so as well, so that the most common complaint I hear from breeders (publicly on various lists, and privately) is 'there are almost no A dogs; we cannot find A studs; the few we find are not a good match'. Yet so many theoretically have these great scans - so where are the dogs?

Once again I reiterate: there are some great, caring, committed breeders out there but many of those who post, and post most vociferously, are telling lots of porkies and they know it and they know I and many others know it because we have the evidence. One of these days the truth will out...

Cathy T
11th December 2009, 01:57 AM
I saw the clip on the Today show this morning. I went to see a client this morning who is aware of my Cavalier obsession and the very first thing she asked me was "did you see that show" "aren't those your dogs". We had a very in depth conversation. I'll be curious to see what others have to say.

WoodHaven
11th December 2009, 01:59 AM
I saw the clip on the Today show this morning. I went to see a client this morning who is aware of my Cavalier obsession and the very first thing she asked me was "did you see that show" "aren't those your dogs". We had a very in depth conversation. I'll be curious to see what others have to say.

So far -- a couple of people have requested information on puppies and one of their first questions is""""" are you one of those breeders that SHOW your cavaliers and breed for looks. They were going to a byb to get a 'less expensive healthier dog"...

Cathy T
11th December 2009, 02:10 AM
And that's when you tell them you breed to meet the standard in appearance and breed for health. My first thing to people who are going to a byb is not only are you going to get a Cavalier that doesn't look like a Cavalier....but you have a much higher chance of the numerous other diseases Cavalier are prone to. Tell them.....you are NOT going to get a less expensive healthier dog through a byb....less expensive yes, healthier NO!!!

WoodHaven
11th December 2009, 02:16 AM
And that's when you tell them you breed to meet the standard in appearance and breed for health. My first thing to people who are going to a byb is not only are you going to get a Cavalier that doesn't look like a Cavalier....but you have a much higher chance of the numerous other diseases Cavalier are prone to. Tell them.....you are NOT going to get a less expensive healthier dog through a byb....less expensive yes, healthier NO!!!

Yes, but the few here that have seen PDE seem to think that show breeders are evil incarnate (breeding siblings-- father to daughter etc..). I would hate for these people to think that they should go to a breeder that doesn't health test instead of one that shows their dogs. But that is some of their mindsets.

I've had this same basic discussion with people who call me looking to "save a rescue cavalier from being pts" instead of buying (putting $$$ in the hands of evil breeders).

P.S. And I too would love to see what breeders are breeding siblings or parent to offspring-- it is almost unheard of unless your gene pool is almost non existent.

mckcomplex
11th December 2009, 02:18 AM
Once again I reiterate: there are some great, caring, committed breeders out there but many of those who post, and post most vociferously, are telling lots of porkies and they know it and they know I and many others know it because we have the evidence. One of these days the truth will out...

Hear, hear, Karlin! :jmp:

Karlin
11th December 2009, 02:25 AM
And these would be the same people who also said, two years ago, five years ago, or yesterday: "I am going to buy my puppy from an Irish/English importer because those countries don't have MVD" or "I can't afford what you are charging and can get a dog for $650 from XXX".

These are basic education issues. It is breeders and clubs that need to take the time to educate buyers. Right now it is hard for puppy buyers to find proper information on finding a breeder, and there's little publicity behind how to find good breeders done by national clubs or national kennel clubs, and often the guidelines are very hard to find on club websites. Often the recommendations skirt around health issues (few mention SM and MRIs for example, even as an optional consideration) and often it is pretty intimidating to ask a breeder for health certs. Breeders themselves feel intimidating asking for health certs from each other.

And at the end of the day, the majority of buyers will likely still buy on price. Especially with a very expensive breed. For people to go with the good breeder, they need to understand why they should.

WoodHaven
11th December 2009, 02:30 AM
And these would be the same people who also said, two years ago, five years ago, or yesterday: "I am going to buy my puppy from an Irish/English importer because those countries don't have MVD" or "I can't afford what you are charging and can get a dog for $650 from XXX".

These are basic education issues. It is breeders and clubs that need to take the time to educate buyers. Right now it is hard for puppy buyers to find proper information on finding a breeder, and there's little publicity behind how to find good breeders done by national clubs or national kennel clubs, and often the guidelines are very hard to find on club websites. Often the recommendations skirt around health issues (few mention SM and MRIs for example, even as an optional consideration) and often it is pretty intimidating to ask a breeder for health certs. Breeders themselves feel intimidating asking for health certs from each other.

And at the end of the day, the majority of buyers will likely still buy on price. Especially with a very expensive breed. For people to go with the good breeder, they need to understand why they should.

No, another nail in the coffin. I mean, there are doctors on this show that said that show breeders ARE DOING HARM. No mention that byb and puppymills are more harmful. That all animals, no all living things are made of genes and some are nasty-- some hide and get passed on.

mckcomplex
11th December 2009, 02:38 AM
Yes, but the few here that have seen PDE seem to think that show breeders are evil incarnate (breeding siblings-- father to daughter etc..).

I think a lot of caring pet owners are caught between two harsh realities. On the one hand, if people didn't breed these lovable little cavs, I wouldn't have precious Leo, and so many of us would miss out on the caring, loving temperament of this breed.

On the other hand, how many dogs of how many different kinds of breeds have to be euthanised every day for little more than the crime of being born before we realize this is our problem, not the rest of the world's? And for how long can we sit back with our cavaliers and even good, health-testing breeders until we think--this is our problem, and not everyone else's?

WoodHaven
11th December 2009, 02:49 AM
I think a lot of caring pet owners are caught between two harsh realities. On the one hand, if people didn't breed these lovable little cavs, I wouldn't have precious Leo, and so many of us would miss out on the caring, loving temperament of this breed.

On the other hand, how many dogs of how many different kinds of breeds have to be euthanised every day for little more than the crime of being born before we realize this is our problem, not the rest of the world's? And for how long can we sit back with our cavaliers and even good, health-testing breeders until we think--this is our problem, and not everyone else's?

Ironically, where I live-- we have small breed rescue (that I work with) that does an excellent job of moving the dogs without homes to the areas that are demanding more small dogs.
There are areas is the USA where they are importing small dogs from Mexico and Puerto Rico (which is a huge health risk).
There are also rescue groups in the south that are moving small adoptable dogs into the northeast to find homes. I find this an excellent alternative to euthanasia-- even if it is more expensive.

Large, old and ill dogs (AND CATS) here will have issues finding homes. My daughter has worked to foster kittens and PIT BULLS/pit bull mixes that are of healthy dispositions to find homes.

Breeders also teach their children to love and help ALL animals.

There is no way in the world I'd have this many large dogs (as I do cavaliers).

mckcomplex
11th December 2009, 02:56 AM
I think that's still getting away from the original intent of my question. In your area, you might have a good rescue operation, but that doesn't change the fact that dogs being euthanised or sitting in shelters without adoption remain a problem.

What it comes down to, and I'm not saying it's an easy question or one that has a direct answer, is whether or not it's responsible to breed or buy from breeders at all when there are so many animals sitting at the pound.

Obviously, I'm not pointing fingers here--I own a Cavalier and love him dearly. But that doesn't mean this question doesn't need to be asked and considered.

Also, I don't want to hijack this thread, so that's the last comment I'll make about it.

Bet
11th December 2009, 10:15 AM
Could I mention that I have never said that there were CKCS Champions with Half Brother to Half Sister Matings.

The Cavaliers I was referring to were matings taking place in the early 1980's and some Father to Daughter ,Mother to Son in the 1970's.

All this information is with Cavalier Researchers for both Cavalier Health Problems SM and MVD.

Bet
11th December 2009, 11:34 AM
Karlin thanks for your two recent Posts.

Could I just mention now that this subject has even been aired on the American TODAY Program, that the Cavalier Head is now too Small for it's Brain ,that Breeding for a Particular Skull Shape of Cavaliers can have Devastating Consequences( Is this type of Head ,now a result for what can have the chance of Winning in the Show Ring.)

There are now so many Cavaliers around with this Type of Skull ,Karlin mentioned that A's mated with A's,are producing affected SM Cavaliers, some Cavalier Breeders I think are Proclaiming that for their argument MRI Scans don't mean a thing because of this happening, I would like to ask those Cavalier Breeders ,have they ever considered the reason why this is happening ,could be the amount of those Cavaliers around to-day with Small Skulls, and as was said in the TODAY Program ,their Brains are now Large for their Heads, because of this, there could be a good number of Cavaliers Carriers who are producing affected SM Cavaliers.

If this is the case ,what a mess the Cavalier Breed is in.

I have mentioned before about contacting Dr J Bell ,Geneticist ,at Tufts University ,America ,asking about the amount of Cavalier MVD Carriers that could now be around in the Cavalier Breed,and his reply was that the only way to combat this in order to save the Cavalier Breed ,is NOT to Breed from a Cavalier till they are 2.5 years of age, so I would guess this advice from the Top Genetic Lecturer at Tufts, will also apply for the Cavalier SM Problem.

As Karlin says, for Breeding purposes MRI Scanning and MVD Testing is absolutely meaningless ,that the Cavalier Breeding Stock should not be being Bred from before 2.5.

Dr J Bell's words not mine.

Soushiruiuma
11th December 2009, 02:52 PM
I think that's still getting away from the original intent of my question. In your area, you might have a good rescue operation, but that doesn't change the fact that dogs being euthanised or sitting in shelters without adoption remain a problem.

What it comes down to, and I'm not saying it's an easy question or one that has a direct answer, is whether or not it's responsible to breed or buy from breeders at all when there are so many animals sitting at the pound.

Obviously, I'm not pointing fingers here--I own a Cavalier and love him dearly. But that doesn't mean this question doesn't need to be asked and considered.

Also, I don't want to hijack this thread, so that's the last comment I'll make about it.

I can't adopt from most of the rescues because I don't have a fenced yard, which means an automatic no for most rescue groups. So that leaves me with the options of not getting a dog, buying one, or stealing one ;).

Shay
11th December 2009, 05:39 PM
I found the program to be very informative, and I was appalled as well. I know this program was geared toward show breeders in the UK, but I wish there were more shows done on puppy mills, and BYB. As the owner of a puppy mill rescue, who was used as the stud dog, I am horrified to imagine how many puppies my Alfie sired. He was just diagnosed with MVD at age 5, and has two LP, one a grade 2 and the other a grade 3. Luckily he shows no signs of SM.

I also have a cavalier whom I purchased from a BYB, before I was educated on reputable breeders. Although she did test for heart and eyes, and both the sire and dam were clear at ages 4 and 5, Lily was just diagnosed with SM, PSOM and a grade two LP on her left knee. Although her SM, is mild, (a very small syrinx) she has moderate symptoms. The SM medication seemed to help at first, but her symptoms seem to be progressing. As much as I love the breed, and can not imagine life without a cavalier, it is so hard to watch them battle their symptoms. I would probably not purchase a cavalier again, but would most definitely adopt a rescue. I fear for the future of these sweet little dogs. I wish more information was available here in the US on BYB, so unsuspecting people like me, would have that information before buying a cavalier. I thought I had done my homework, but I was ignorant of BYB. There are so many people like me, who want a pet quality puppy, and don't know the difference between a BYB and a reputable breeder. I know that I could have had the same outcome with any breeder, but I get so angry with myself for not knowing the difference. I have two special needs dogs whom I love dearly, but the cost to care for them is astronomical, and if these dogs would be in a home with owners who could not afford to care for them, or not want the burden, then both could have ended up with a sad end. I know there are many owners out there who will face this, and the dogs will end up in rescue, or worse. People have been educated to the horrors of puppy mills here in the US, and so many more know now not to buy from pet stores, but are ignorant to the problems with BYB. This is why I feel the problem of BYB needs to have more attention here in the US.