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WoodHaven
11th December 2009, 03:12 AM
As someone who has spent the last 8.5+ years doing what she can for rescue, I'd like to discuss the needs of those in shelters vs. buying a dog from a breeder.

The idea that buying a dog from a reputable breeder KILLS a dog in rescue is ridiculous. It is pure animal rights bull.
IF that idea is Pure-- than no one should have their own child while ANY child is sitting waiting to be adopted.
Breeders-- responsible breeders need to be breeding dogs that FIT within peoples homes and lives or all we'll have left are the dogs that were given up (due to health issues, lack of training etc... ). Do you realize that breeders RARELY give up their pups/dogs-- it is usually a bad owner that gives up a poorly trained or ill thought of pet.
Sorry, but I've had it with the rhetoric.

mckcomplex
11th December 2009, 03:26 AM
I'm afraid there is rhetoric on both sides, not just on one, WoodHaven.

The fact is, it IS irresponsible to have children in an overcrowded world that's exhausting its resources. Does that mean we shouldn't have children? Of course not. But does it mean that we shouldn't try to find a solution and stop irresponsible breeding of HUMANS as well as animals?

Of course if someone buys a puppy from a breeder, that doesn't mean there's a needle in the neck of a dog at the shelter next door--but it does mean that for every adorable puppy bred and bought, there's another older dog of the "wrong" breed that's still sitting in a shelter.

And it is a myth that most shelter dogs are put in a shelter because of health or training issues. And usually, even it there are behavior problems, they can be fixed with a little time, effort, and Dunbar methodology. As someone who has visited a lot of shelters to see a lot of eight month old puppies with nothing more than housetraining problems, I know what I'm talking about.

WoodHaven
11th December 2009, 03:33 AM
I'm afraid there is rhetoric on both sides, not just on one, WoodHaven.

The fact is, it IS irresponsible to have children in an overcrowded world that's exhausting its resources. Does that mean we shouldn't have children? Of course not. But does it mean that we shouldn't try to find a solution and stop irresponsible breeding of HUMANS as well as animals?

Of course if someone buys a puppy from a breeder, that doesn't mean there's a needle in the neck of a dog at the shelter next door--but it does mean that for every adorable puppy bred and bought, there's another older dog of the "wrong" breed that's still sitting in a shelter.

10+ years ago I looked at shelter dogs (wanting to do the reponsible thing). One lunged at me, OUT, the next one that was under 5 was.... vastly undersocialized (that is the nice word). The rest were over 5 and I had just lost my 14+ year old cocker to old age issues. Went to another shelter and the smell drove me out. NOW, had I been to the multimillion dollar shelter they have on Wisconsin st, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.... I may have found a dog that fit my home, family and needs. I am very glad that I "found" the CKCS. My Katrina is my 'special' dog. She is why I volunteer and rehabiliate rescues that haven't gotten the best lives.

Anyone who puts an 8 month old dog in a shelter due to housetraining issues needs their heads examined. 90% of the time early housetraining issues are the due to HUMAN error-- not dog issues. We don't get many 8 month old ANY BREEDS here.

mckcomplex
11th December 2009, 03:53 AM
Well, unfortunately, while we're quite willing to make big sacrifices for our children when they end up having problems (and anyway, that sort of thing is legislated), we're much more willing to think of animals as toys that can be dropped off at the shelter if we suddenly find that taking them out to go potty eight times a day is a bit too hard for us.

Once again, not pointing any fingers, but how can we call our dogs our children and then drop them off at a shelter when something goes awry?

I realize that this might bring up a great deal of controversy from people who have had to give up their dogs for legitimate reasons--and I'm sure there are legitimate reasons, so please don't think I'm making a blanket statement--but the fact is that too many people are willing to give animals up for reasons that they CAN control if they only cared enough.

What we need here is a change in attitude from people--and I honestly think that does need legislature. The reason that dog at the shelter was undersocialized is because he/she had owners who were ignorant of the right way to raise a dog. What if everyone who bought a puppy had to take a class about caring for a puppy?

Mindysmom
11th December 2009, 03:55 AM
I have the utmost respect for anyone who adopts a dog from a shelter. The experience I have had and that of family and friends haven't been ideal health wise or behaviour wise. One of the dogs in Max's agility class is an ex-breeding bitch from a shelter and she is a lovely girl although she still has issues with new dogs. A co-worker of mine was refused as a potential adopter because she worked outside the home so I think the shelters around here at least must have more people wanting to adopt than dogs for adoption.

If I couldn't have a Cavalier I'm not sure I'd have a dog. Their personalities suit me better than any other dog I've known.

WoodHaven
11th December 2009, 03:58 AM
Well, unfortunately, while we're quite willing to make big sacrifices for our children when they end up having problems (and anyway, that sort of thing is legislated), we're much more willing to think of animals as toys that can be dropped off at the shelter if we suddenly find that taking them out to go potty eight times a day is a bit too hard for us.

Once again, not pointing any fingers, but how can we call our dogs our children and then drop them off at a shelter when something goes awry?

I realize that this might bring up a great deal of controversy from people who have had to give up their dogs for legitimate reasons--and I'm sure there are legitimate reasons, so please don't think I'm making a blanket statement--but the fact is that too many people are willing to give animals up for reasons that they CAN control if they only cared enough.

What we need here is a change in attitude from people--and I honestly think that does need legislature. The reason that dog at the shelter was undersocialized is because he/she had owners who were ignorant of the right way to raise a dog. What if everyone who bought a puppy had to take a class about caring for a puppy?

One of the things that I've learned in my long time on this rock is: You can't legislate morality. They (the immoral) will ditch their dogs if they can't drop them off. Or shoot them. Two situations that are truly worse than being dropped off.

mckcomplex
11th December 2009, 04:02 AM
How is requiring future puppy owners to take a class about caring for puppies legislating morality?

In that case, should we not have classes teaching people how to drive? In my experience, you have classes to show you how to drive because the way you drive affects those around you as well as yourself. Wouldn't you say owning a puppy affects not only you, but also the puppy and the people in the puppy's future who will be dealing with it if you don't train it correctly?

Most of the dogs I've heard talked about on this thread had problems because of human error--undersocialized, untrained, or used as a breeding bitch by unethical breeders--we all know that any dog can be a sweetheart, if he/she has the right training.

WoodHaven
11th December 2009, 04:08 AM
How is requiring future puppy owners to take a class about caring for puppies legislating morality?

In that case, should we not have classes teaching people how to drive? In my experience, you have classes to show you how to drive because the way you drive affects those around you as well as yourself. Wouldn't you say owning a puppy affects not only you, but also the puppy and the people in the puppy's future who will be dealing with it if you don't train it correctly?

How is legislating a class going to change much of anything. I've never needed a puppy class. I've taken a dog through a year of advanced obedience and handling classes, but neither changed my relationship with my dog.
I also knew how to drive by the time I was twelve. Didn't need a class for that either. I drove a tractor, a four wheeler and a motor cycle without a class. Training a dog is much like training a child, or a co worker or a husband. Positive reinforcement and goal orientation.

mckcomplex
11th December 2009, 04:10 AM
In both cases then (driving and owning a puppy), why do so many people have trouble?

Maybe you are a natural at both of those subjects, but if everyone else was as well, there wouldn't be nearly as many dogs in the shelter, and there wouldn't be nearly as many wrecks on the road.

WoodHaven
11th December 2009, 04:24 AM
In both cases then (driving and owning a puppy), why do so many people have trouble?

Maybe you are a natural at both of those subjects, but if everyone else was as well, there wouldn't be nearly as many dogs in the shelter, and there wouldn't be nearly as many wrecks on the road.

Impulse buying... puppies are sooo cute. They don't realize that puppies are so much work- training- expense. When I home pups and/or dogs I try to give people the BAD first. That a 12 week old pup may need to get out in the middle of the night to PEE. AND it isn't the pups fault or problem. That a new rescue WILL crap (excuse me) on your carpet. They need to be taught were to go and when they do well, you celebrate successes and/or clean up the messes. That love and patience will go a LOT farther than cursing and hitting. If a dog BONDS to you.... it will do anything to make you happy(especially cavaliers). It is a true irony.

mckcomplex
11th December 2009, 04:36 AM
This is not about you, and this is not about me. This is about people who are uneducated about these problems, and there are many.

I have a masters degree and have dedicated my life to education at the college level, and I STILL didn't know that puppy mills even existed until about a year ago.

Maybe you are a great breeder, and maybe you do home your pups with fantastic people, but that doesn't change a mite about all the other dogs from uneducated breeders going to uneducated people. (And by uneducated, I mean about these problems, not in general)

We have to do more. We have to get this information to more people, and there should be a way to keep tabs on it legally. Adopting children is legislated--if we're going to call our dogs our children, why shouldn't we make sure people are prepared to care for them? For all of our efforts, there are still ten million dogs a year getting PTS in shelters, and that is unacceptable.

This is an indictment of all of us, not one of us. I speak just as loudly to myself when I say this because I personally have not done enough.

In the words of Alice Walker, "We are the ones we have been waiting for." And that's not rhetoric--it's just the truth.

WoodHaven
11th December 2009, 04:44 AM
My dogs are not my 'adoptive children' -- they are my property and I give them a great life.
If I can't raise the worlds children, I definitively can't raise the world PETS.

I don't know where you got your 10 million-- but according to my numbers, that is WWWAYYYY overestimated. My numbers are 3+ million pets in the USA being pts-- over half are cats. There are about 6 mil going into shelters and just about 60% are pts. Many of these are older, big and ill dogs that people can't handle. The problem is people are giving money to PeTa & HSUS and they don't handle these issues. They just seem to collect the money in their 'name'

mckcomplex
11th December 2009, 04:48 AM
My dogs are not my 'adoptive children' -- they are my property and I give them a great life.

There are certainly different numbers given out by different organizations, but are you saying 3 or 4 million is chump change? Anyway, 3 or 4 million is just for the U.S., not worldwide.

And furthermore--your dogs are your property? I think this conversation is over. There is no way we could ever see eye to eye. I just can't see this put together: I give my property a great life.

If there's life, it's not property.

WoodHaven
11th December 2009, 04:56 AM
There are certainly different numbers given out by different organizations, but are you saying 3 or 4 million is chump change? Anyway, 3 or 4 million is just for the U.S., not worldwide.

And furthermore--your dogs are your property? I think this conversation is over. There is no way we could ever see eye to eye. I just can't see this put together: I give a great life to my property.

If there's life, it's not property.

Please speak from knowledge and not emotion... dogs are property under the law and as such are protected as such... or someone could swoop in and declare your furbabies uncared for properly and take them away.

Under 2 million dogs per year-- seems a lot less than 10 million. And many people have 'given away' their sick and/or problematic dogs. If I didn't have the 100+ dollars to euthanize an ill dog-- I might be forced to give it to a shelter to do it for me.

The most embarrassing part is my dogs live a better life than most children. They have their own ophthalmologists, cardiologists, neurologist, and reproduction experts than my children ever had.

mckcomplex
11th December 2009, 05:15 AM
Right, dogs are property--which is precisely why the legislation needs to change.

Because if dogs are property, then what is the problem with the dogs in the shelters or with euthanasia of healthy animals? After all, property is something that can be bought, sold, abandoned, trashed--it exists solely for your pleasure.

The thought that dogs are property is exactly what has landed so many dogs in this situation in the first place. As long as dogs are thought of as mere property, there will be so much more heartache. From what I remember about history, there were a lot of people who disagreed that slaves should be named property for a long time before there was actually any legislature that gave them rights. If it hadn't been for those people, would there ever have been a war that led to change?

Now, what do you say--but we don't treat our dogs like property, but better than our children? And yet, you don't want to assure that legally they get the same treatment as children . . .

WoodHaven
11th December 2009, 05:22 AM
Right, dogs are property--which is precisely why the legislation needs to change.

Because if dogs are property, then what is the problem with the dogs in the shelters or with euthanasia? After all, property is something that can be bought, sold, abandoned, trashed--it exists solely for your pleasure.

The thought that dogs are property is exactly what has landed so many dogs in this situation in the first place. As long as dogs are thought of as mere property, there will be so much more heartache. From what I remember about history, there were a lot of people who disagreed that slaves should be named property for a long time before there was actually any legislature that gave them rights. If it hadn't been for those people, would there ever have been a war that led to change?

Now, what do you say--but we don't treat our dogs like property, but better than our children? And yet, you don't want to assure that legally they get the same treatment as children . . .


I don't want 'others' to have power over my 'fur kids' as it were. What if some ding bat decides that crates are inhumane?? Mine are in crates for 5 hours a day. It keeps them from mischief while I am gone. IF they were "children" that would be unacceptable. AND I agree that children shouldn't be put in a 3 x 2 crate for 5 hours a day... but IF I let my dogs free 24/7 they would do damage to: my home and each other. So, yes... my dogs are property so "I" can make these decisions without some idiot saying they should be free.

Shelters deciding to euthanize healthy, adoptable animals is their own issue. No one is forcing them to-- they decide to do this. If the HSUS put their dollars to use, this wouldn't be necessary.

mckcomplex
11th December 2009, 05:26 AM
I think there's a bit of a difference here because it is accepted by animal behaviorists that crating is a natural and intelligent way to train dogs.

Here's the analogy: No one's going to take your child away because you spank them or don't spank them. Even though many people agree that spanking is not effective long term, no one is going to follow you around in your home to make sure you're not lifting a finger to them.

However, if your child goes to school with bruises that you gave them with the spanking, then YES, that child should be taken away from you.

So, no, crating for five hours a day isn't harmful--but how about ten hours a day? How about crating one for so long that they can't be effectively potty-trained? You think people like that should have a dog?

Mom of Jato
11th December 2009, 05:32 AM
I tried to adopt a cat from a shelter many years ago, and they turned me away because I didn't already have a cat at home. :confused: They said cats get bored and need company, so they only adopt out to homes that have one or more cats already. I was floored!!!! I explained to them that I was an "at home mom", and the cat would received plenty of attention, but NO they wouldn't budge. :mad: I hope they have lightened up on the rules by now so more animals can be placed in nice homes.

mckcomplex
11th December 2009, 05:35 AM
I tried to adopt a cat from a shelter many years ago, and they turned me away because I didn't already have a cat at home. :confused: They said cats get bored and need company, so they only adopt out to homes that have one or more cats already. I was floored!!!! I explained to them that I was an "at home mom", and the cat would received plenty of attention, but NO they wouldn't budge. :mad: I hope they have lightened up on the rules by now so more animals can be placed in nice homes.

That is insane! Especially since cats are generally more independent than dogs and overall less inclined to tackle the garbage can when you're not around!

WoodHaven
11th December 2009, 05:35 AM
I think there's a bit of a difference here because it is accepted by animal behaviorists that crating is a natural and intelligent way to train dogs.

Here's the analogy: No one's going to take your child away because you spank them or don't spank them. Even though many people agree that spanking is not effective long term, no one is going to follow you around in your home to make sure you're not lifting a finger to them.

However, if your child goes to school with bruises that you gave them with the spanking, then YES, that child should be taken away from you.

So, no, crating for five hours a day isn't harmful--but how about ten hours a day? How about crating one for so long that they can't be effectively potty-trained? You think people like that should have a dog?

Crates are not accepted policy by all animal control. Fact. Smart people-- crates used correctly yes,,,,all animal rights people-NO.

A woman was taken away because she ran money to the bell ringer at walmart and left her child for less than one minute strapped in the car.. Yes Virginia... people are watching. Another woman smacked her child in another parking lot and got brought up on charges of abuse. -- she smacked his diaper and didn't make a mark-- she still had to go to court.

I don't want my treatment of my dogs (even tho my vet thinks I am the best)to be subject to every tom, dick and harry that has a humane society leaning. So yes, they are mine... mine to love, nurture and protect.

WoodHaven
11th December 2009, 05:43 AM
I tried to adopt a cat from a shelter many years ago, and they turned me away because I didn't already have a cat at home. :confused: They said cats get bored and need company, so they only adopt out to homes that have one or more cats already. I was floored!!!! I explained to them that I was an "at home mom", and the cat would received plenty of attention, but NO they wouldn't budge. :mad: I hope they have lightened up on the rules by now so more animals can be placed in nice homes.

You would be a very welcome home here to a kitten. My daughter just placed three, 10 week olds that two were going to be lovely long haired cats. Some cats (like my daughters Max) would love to be only cats.

mckcomplex
11th December 2009, 05:44 AM
A woman was taken away because she ran money to the bell ringer at walmart and left her child for less than one minute strapped in the car.. Yes Virginia... people are watching. Another woman smacked her child in another parking lot and got brought up on charges of abuse. -- she smacked his diaper and didn't make a mark-- she still had to go to court.
.

I feel that you're talking around all of my points with personal anecdotes. I'm sure all of those are true, but yet, should we stop trying to help children who are abused? Should we stop prosecuting those who abuse children because this happens?

If you're a good Mama to those babies, then you know you have nothing to fear. In fact, I would think instead of a blanket disavowal, it would be better to start thinking of compromises. What law can we come up with that would be fair to pet owners but also protect the animals?

I'm not the first or the last to think animals should not be labeled as property. Check this article out: http://www.oregonlive.com/pets/index.ssf/2009/09/divorce_and_separations_can_se.html

I think the more people's minds change about this, the closer we will be to having our animals recognized as more than property, and that will be the first step in making animal owners more responsible and educated.

WoodHaven
11th December 2009, 05:49 AM
I feel that you're talking around all of my points with personal anecdotes. I'm sure all of those are true, but yet, should we stop trying to help children who are abused? Should we stop prosecuting those who abuse children because this happens?

If you're a good Mama to those babies, then you know you have nothing to fear. In fact, I would think instead of a blanket disavowal, it would be better to start thinking of compromises. What law can we come up with that would be fair to pet owners but also protect the animals?

I'm not the first or the last to think animals should not be labeled as property. Check this article out: http://www.oregonlive.com/pets/index.ssf/2009/09/divorce_and_separations_can_se.html

I think the more people's minds change about this, the closer we will be to having our animals recognized as more than property, and that will be the first step in making animal owners more responsible and educated.

Well, one of the first things that is glaring apparent is that we love our pets. How we want them protected is the only dispute.

OK, A vets says that your 13 year old cavalier needs a 3000 surgery that is 20% likely to be successful. As property you can say, end my babies suffering now... 20% is unrealistic. AS non property... You could be required to do the surgery. or they take your dog and possibly fine you.

mckcomplex
11th December 2009, 06:01 AM
Well, let's find an equivalent in the medical world. You have a patient who can't speak for himself, your Dad, let's say, and you have the right to make his medical decisions since he can't. He is 97 years old. He has cancer. He is feeble, and chemotherapy has virtually no chance of working and might kill him in the process. Would anyone look down on you for saying, "No, let's not do the chemotherapy; I think he'd rather die in his sleep than on an operating table"?

Of course there are always going to be problems in the wording of every law, but I think these problems could be worked around successfully if we were only having more conversations like this--(which I am enjoying now very thoroughly, by the way!)

Karlin
11th December 2009, 01:53 PM
Really interesting discussion -- thanks for initiating it, Sandy. They are issues close to my heart (and I really HATE the attittude that a rescue cavalier is a made-to-go family dog that is cheaper than buying a puppy... :mad:).

The ridiculous end of the arguments from each side is:

Buying a dog from a breeder means a shelter dog dies every time.

vs

There's no pet overpopulation programme and it is all just a line from animal rights activists and Peta.

Anyone who spends time in pounds or shelters or does rescue knows that for many breeds and most crossbreeds, there's a serious overpopulation problem, as there is with cats. Most of the problem is down to irresponsible breeding and ignorance (in breeding, training, health, temperament -- from 'proper' breeders to BYBs to millers to the average pet owner to the parent who gets the Christmas puppy to the tough guy wanted a macho dog t the person who thinks dogs train themselves or should innately know how to behave in a home...).

Personally, I am a believer in education, education, education as well as tighter regulation and strong advocacy for spaying and neutering, for cats and dogs.

But to return to the first argument: many people do not want a shelter dog, for all sorts of reasons. Many want a specific breed because they want a certain type of dog and certain traits are going to be pretty stable in well-bred puppies or adults from responsible breeders. Many people do not want a much older dog (sadly -- as IMHO these are some of the most rewarding, personality-full dogs) and many would not be able for the training challenge of many shelter dogs. For someone who really loves a particular breed, nothing matches a well bred, healthy, typey dog from an excellent breeder.

On the other side: Dogs Trust has shown that great education programmes around shelter dogs and mixed breeds can ensure that ALL types of dogs dogs are rightly, attractive and desireable. Better public/govt support of excellent shelter training/rehab programs such as what Dee Ganley (www.deesdogs.com) or the San Francisco SPCA do would show a few simple training and care steps make shelter dogs imminently more homeable and attractive. But in a way the argument is ridiculous -- is anyone seriously arguing the average PUPPY is easier than the typical rescue dog? It is just that the cuteness of a puppy outweighs the hideous nightmare of caring for one, the housetraining misery, etc. I have NEVER had a rescue dog that is even half the challenge and effort of getting a puppy up to a civilised level!! Don't forget MOST shelter dogs are those that people badly mismanaged in the trials and tribulations of puppyhood -- people screw these dogs up by not giving them the basics they need as pups, thereby often consigning them to death by needle before they are even a year old.

The problem for good breeders is that the vast majority of people decide they want a dog and want a bargain impulse purchase so they get their dog NOW. The BYBs and millers make that easy.

On the flip side -- I've worked in general rescue and done my own cavalier rescue for several years now and must say it wuld be extremely rare for any of the rescues that took such dogs in from the pound to ever have a serious behaviour issue. Often this is fear aggression when it does happen and it is why a qualified trainer/behaviourist is invaluable to assess whether a dog is rehomeable. Sadly for shelter dogs, with many more homeable dogs around, few wil put that time in but some rescues do. I have had very few behaviour problems crop up that weren't easily manageable issues (and issues almost always come from PEOPLE, not the dogs themselves, to start with...:rolleyes:).

Often the behaviour issues come because people get the wrong breed profile for their lifestyle and sometimes -- often -- it is because people think they want a dog but remember the happy family dog of their childhood when mom was home all day (not everyone now at work and dog left alone all day) and kids played outside WITH the dog around, not inside with dog left outside. And then I am absolutely convinced a huge number of behaviour problems and aggression issues come thanks to Cesar Milan type TV trainers whose methods go against all the research done on dogs in recent decades which have shown such approaches generally make dogs worse, not better, because of the fear associations/aggresive response of humans/punishment/unpredictability, all in the name of 'dominating' and being 'the alpha' (see this summary of studies (http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/do-confrontational-dog-training-methods-work-really-point) and this analysis (http://www.dogspelledforward.com/cesar-millan-review-bella) of a typical Milan training episode with some seriously questionable approaches).

There is good evidence that doing a good obedience class with a dog while it is a puppy massively lower the likelihood that it ends up in a shelter -- and that doing such a class with a rescue dog also almost always ensures it doesn;t get returned to a shelter. Hence some shelters offer vouchers for reduced cost training (I arrange this when I can) and the SFSPCA sends new dogs owners home with a Dunbar training DVD. (and this is why I often encourage or inists on training classes as part of homing a rescue cavalier... :) )

Holly
11th December 2009, 03:51 PM
I think that if you are going to be involved in any breed of dog, such as Cavaliers, the right thing to do is to become involved in Rescue for that breed in some way... even if you can't foster, you can help with transport or do home visits, etc.

Kat M.-- I work with a Cavalier Rescue group here in Atlanta and we always need volunteers. Are you interested in helping? If so, I am happy to get you the application to become a volunteer!

Tania
11th December 2009, 04:31 PM
My own experience and gut now tells me to get a pet from a rescue, you might not know exactly what you are getting but the same seems to apply buying from a breeder. Education and awareness for potential new pet owners is a "must". Before Molly and Dougall, I had never heard of sm or Puppy Farming :huh: In addition to this, we had no idea how hard looking after two puppies would be. Never having had the experience of having children, I felt as though I had given birth to two naughty monkies! :fool: For the first six month of their lives we did not leave them alone. We joined a puppy class, this class really taught and educated us as well as the puppies. Even though I feel I did a large amount of research in to CKSS before we chose, I now think I really didn't know anything at all :o
Molly has sm and we do not know what the future holds, if anything happens to her, I will have a big problem with Dougall. I am faced with a decision. do I get another one?, do I foster? what do I do? The only question I am sure about is if I do, it will definately be a Cavalier Rescue.

WoodHaven
11th December 2009, 04:50 PM
My own experience and gut now tells me to get a pet from a rescue, you might not know exactly what you are getting but the same seems to apply buying from a breeder.

I am sorry you feel that buying from a breeder has the same comfort level as getting a rescue. I get calls daily from people wanting to buy puppies and adopt from rescue and I spend hours weekly educating people about cavaliers.

mckcomplex
11th December 2009, 06:34 PM
Kat M.-- I work with a Cavalier Rescue group here in Atlanta and we always need volunteers. Are you interested in helping? If so, I am happy to get you the application to become a volunteer!

I would love to help! Do you have work for someone who could make visits about once a month (maybe twice some months)? I live and teach in Valdosta (bordering on Florida), but I have some friends I'm sure I could stay with for a few days each month!

Devilica
11th December 2009, 07:12 PM
I was on another general dog forum the other day and noticed someone's sig.... it really struck a chord with me...

"If you can't rescue, don't breed!"

If everybody with the idea of breeding could stick to this, the world would be a slightly better place.

Tania
11th December 2009, 10:24 PM
I am sorry you feel that buying from a breeder has the same comfort level as getting a rescue. I get calls daily from people wanting to buy puppies and adopt from rescue and I spend hours weekly educating people about cavaliers.
I had no idea the conditions and the abuse these poor little souls have to endure and actually feel guilty having bought two. I have no idea why the UK Government will not ban this cruelty. That is why now, I feel if I can do anything to help these poor little dogs, I will.

Mindysmom
12th December 2009, 02:31 AM
My sister got a puppy from the humane society. Other than the fact that it was separated from it's mother much too early (6 weeks) one would have thought with love and training it would have grown into a decent dog. It was a lovely dog with family members and my nephew - even as a toddler was able to take his food away from under his nose. Unfortunately, nobody other than their direct family was able to be in the same room with his food. My son walked into my parents bedroom while we were visiting to read on their bed. He didn't know that Bo's food and water were there (he was fed on schedule - only water was left down). The dog bit him for walking into the room. My sister spent thousands of dollars training this dog and it was the most obedient dog I have met - my younger son entered it in a fun obedience show and he behaved perfectly. He was incredibly unpredictable though and even as an adult he had to be supervised 100% of the time. He ended up having to be PTS after he bit a young child that came up behind him that my sister didn't see in time to be able to control the situation - he was on a leash and they were waiting outside the schoolyard for my nephew to be done school. My sister told me that even though they were all sad - because he was a lovely dog with the immediate family - she felt she had been released from jail. This didn't totally turn them off rescue (like it did me) as several years later with my nephew a teenager begging for a dog they have a smallish senior dog from rescue whose worst crimes are sometimes excessive barking and the fact that he was apparently allowed to eat off the table in his former life.

The resuce cocker we had when my children were toddlers was absolutely the wrong dog for us. He couldn't be trained (at least by a mom pushing a stroller) to walk on leash. He hated everyone except for us. He tried to bite our paperboy who was as much of an animal lover as anyone I've ever met. He barked ALL the time if we were away. Even though we lived in a pretty isolated area our neighbours complained. He was far more dog than we could handle and we did end up sending him back. Honestly the Cocker in our agility class has done nothing to convince me that as a breed they are not all psycho.

When we got our Golden as a pup we went through far more hoops than it took to have kids:rolleyes: Just the other day I found a copy of the yard plan that we sent in along with the application when we got Zeus. In truth - he was too much dog for us too - especially after we moved to town and there was no longer anywhere we could take him to run off leash. He was a lovely, good natured dog though. As his father was an obedience champion and his grandmother a search and rescue dog we probably should have realized he needed a job to be fully happy. Had we known about positive training at the time I have no doubt he would have been a better trained dog. Although he died fairly young (at 11 1/2) he didn't have any of the breed specific problems and I credit that to getting him from a reputable breeder. Zeus' breeder referred me to Mindy's breeder when we were looking for a smaller dog. I had read that Cavalier's were like Golden's in a smaller boy. Mindy is an absolute treasure but not at all like Zeus personality wise - maybe because she is a girl but she is a pleaser. Max on the other hand could be the reincarnation:D. Luckily for all of us I got on the training early on and he is a really well behaved boy who is too short to table surg:D

chloe92us
12th December 2009, 02:04 PM
This is a very interesting read. For all of you who advocate "no kill" and "rescue, don't buy" you MUST, MUST, MUST volunteer in your local animal shelter to see what really goes on behind the scenes, and then volunteer as a foster with a Cavalier Club. You will see dogs you never thought possible; some extremely sweet, and some on the opposite side of the spectrum.

My foster now has been with us 3 months- his age is unknown. He came from an animal control facility. He was taken from his owners for negligence. As far as I can tell, not brushing your dog & not taking him to an eye specialist is not negligence. He was a good weight and friendly as can be. However, he has genetic health problems. So, now this dog has been taken from his home and may possibly never be adopted due to his age and health issues. Where do you draw the line?

A lot of people feel that their dogs are their "fur kids", but there are just as many others that consider them "property", a "hunting assistant", a "guard" and all sorts of other things. Are you seriously saying you think you can change these people's minds? Seriously? It breaks my heart to see dogs in an outdoor 3x5 kennel their entire life. It does! But we can't haul all these people to jail- or take their dog. Then, the dog would be in a kennel in a shelter, most likely unsocialized, fearful, and therefore unadoptable. If we took away all these animals, then we would really have a shelter overpopulation problem. And, believe me, not every animal should be adopted out.

chloe92us
12th December 2009, 02:24 PM
Helping animals stay in their homes, as long as there is no significant abuse or neglect, should be the goal. Our local humane society has a pet food pantry for low-income families, as well as a low-cost Vet clinic where families can have their animals neutered and receive low-cost vaccines. There are groups out there who donate dog houses to those people who choose to leave their dog outside. These are fantastic programs and these programs need to be better advertised AND FUNDED. Donate to your local shelter. Foster for them, or your local Cavalier Club.

The shelters can't be too picky about who they adopt an animal to; they don't have the staff or the funds. The best they can do is vaccinate & neuter every animal that comes through. In that way, they can reduce the # of animals "on the street" and hope for the best.

Breed Clubs & private shelters tend to be more selective in who they adopt animals to, by charging higher adoption fees and having a list of requirements that adopters must meet. The only reason they can do this, is they have a network of foster homes so they know the dogs/cats are being well cared for and are willing to keep the animal until a proper home is found. But, the # of foster homes is ridiculously low. In our organization, there are only a handful of foster homes, mine included, so I end up having an extra dog for probably half the year (and will have two extra dogs for the holidays most likely). If there were MORE fosters, each family would only have to take in a couple dogs a year instead of a dozen.

So for all of you complaining, I urge you to FOSTER, FOSTER, FOSTER. VOLUNTEER your time and/or DONATE your money.

Off my podium now!

chloe92us
12th December 2009, 02:33 PM
Sorry, back on my podium.

For those of you with a bad rescue experience, there is someone with a good rescue experience. I have seen both. But purebred puppies are the same way; we had an adorable Blenheim through rescue a few months ago. She was 8 YO and came from Petland. She was purchased @ 4 months old- so for the first 16 weeks, she was in a crate with very little human contact, and most likely taken from her mother @ 6 weeks old. She cost her original owner $900 back then, ON SALE, because she was "old" for a pup. She was the cutest, sweetest little thing to those she bonded with. Except when she met a stranger, then she became a nasty barking lunatic. Why? Because even though she was expensive, and a purebred dog, she was completely untrusting and unsocialized as a pup.

Rescuing an animal is not for everyone. But in most cases, the dogs coming from decent shelters HAVE been behavior-tested, neutered & vaccinated. And keep in mind, "no kill" shelters are not any better than "kill" shelters, in that they only accept the "primo" animals, and turn away the un-adoptables to be sent off to a kill shelter.

Jay
12th December 2009, 04:08 PM
My experiences with shelter dogs have all been very positive. I have had three mixed breed puppies from shelters. I got a 1 year old mixed breed dog for my mother from our local pound. My cavalier rescues were from a shelter also. These dogs all were and are great dogs. The puppies had no issues, except those problems associated with being puppies. The 1 year old turned out to be deaf and has a few issues that are not serious. He has this curious habit of running in circles. He is a wonderful companion for my elderly mother and she loves him dearly.

My two Cavalier rescues were removed from a hoarder's home. They are wonderful dogs with the sweetest temperments. They are not without their own issues. I have had these two rescues for about 2 1/2 years and we are still picking up poops in the living room from time to time. Harley will mark on occasion. We can't leave any food on the dining room table or it becomes fair game for either of the two. Would I ever give these dogs up.....NEVER! They are true joy in our lives! I don't think a week goes by when one of my family members doesn't comment on how happy we are to have Harley and Sapphire as part of our family.

I think it is all in the attitude. I understand where these dogs have come from. When you get an adult from a shelter, it is there for a reason. Most of the time, it is not the dog's fault. Most of the time, it is the previous owner who couldn't or wouldn't take the time to properly train and socialize the dog. It could have been that the previous owner expected perfection in a dog, a dog that would never bark, never dig, never counter surf, never run off with underwear....I am not perfect....how can I expect my dog to be.


Rescuing an animal is not for everyone. But in most cases, the dogs coming from decent shelters HAVE been behavior-tested, neutered & vaccinated. And keep in mind, "no kill" shelters are not any better than "kill" shelters, in that they only accept the "primo" animals, and turn away the un-adoptables to be sent off to a kill shelter.

I agree!

J.

Holly
12th December 2009, 04:11 PM
I would love to help! Do you have work for someone who could make visits about once a month (maybe twice some months)? I live and teach in Valdosta (bordering on Florida), but I have some friends I'm sure I could stay with for a few days each month!

If you pm me your email address, I will send you an application to volunteer with us. There may be times when we need help in your area... you just never know. Thanks!

jacies
12th December 2009, 04:19 PM
Would just like to say that I recently got my new girl Armani the Chinese Crested from The Little Dog Rescue and could not be happier with her. She is not a youngster, being 9, but then neither am I. I know she is not a cavalier which I would have loved to have had but just could not face the chance of having another with Chaos's problems. Also someone else on here said they had tried to adopt from Many Tears and were turned down because their cavalier had SM, which I think is a very strange policy but so did not bother to apply. The Little Dog Rescue does not have kennels but all the dogs are fostered around the country and assessed for health and behaviour problems before being rehomed. I can't praise the people who do this work enough.
I feel that if anyone loves dogs then they can usually love one whatever the breed and Armani is a very loving little girl who sleeps under the duvet with me, is always giving me kisses and is very clever. Have had a few issues with house training but that is getting better now and it has only been a couple of weeks.

WoodHaven
12th December 2009, 05:17 PM
Helping animals stay in their homes, as long as there is no significant abuse or neglect, should be the goal. Our local humane society has a pet food pantry for low-income families, as well as a low-cost Vet clinic where families can have their animals neutered and receive low-cost vaccines. There are groups out there who donate dog houses to those people who choose to leave their dog outside. These are fantastic programs and these programs need to be better advertised AND FUNDED. Donate to your local shelter. Foster for them, or your local Cavalier Club.

The shelters can't be too picky about who they adopt an animal to; they don't have the staff or the funds. The best they can do is vaccinate & neuter every animal that comes through. In that way, they can reduce the # of animals "on the street" and hope for the best.

Breed Clubs & private shelters tend to be more selective in who they adopt animals to, by charging higher adoption fees and having a list of requirements that adopters must meet. The only reason they can do this, is they have a network of foster homes so they know the dogs/cats are being well cared for and are willing to keep the animal until a proper home is found. But, the # of foster homes is ridiculously low. In our organization, there are only a handful of foster homes, mine included, so I end up having an extra dog for probably half the year (and will have two extra dogs for the holidays most likely). If there were MORE fosters, each family would only have to take in a couple dogs a year instead of a dozen.

So for all of you complaining, I urge you to FOSTER, FOSTER, FOSTER. VOLUNTEER your time and/or DONATE your money.

Off my podium now!

Trisha,
You gave a lot of good information and hopefully gave some people something to think about.
Fostering is one of the most rewarding endeavors you can do-- but it can burn you out too. So I agree, if everyone who cares about this breed, can open their hearts and homes to just one foster and TRY it, they might find out that it is an amazing way to GIVE back to this wonderful breed.
My younger daughter just fostered for the first time (she just started her career, just got married, bought a house and car all in the last 7 months). I try to give 'easy' dogs to first timers and she got 2 at once. It took us 6/7 weeks to find a good home for both of them (homing 2 at once is difficult). She said she'd do it again. She is a medical laboratory scientist- busy woman.
There is a human surgeon in Chicago that tried it and now is a regular volunteer. There is our Ohio representative for CKCSCR-- Dr. Lynette Cole- veterinarian (PSOM) who has found fostering is very rewarding, so much so that she handles Ohio rescue.
So please, just try it once-- if you hate it-- you'll never have to do it again. I've not had many people say never again.

Ok, I am done begging. Sandy

Mindysmom
12th December 2009, 05:42 PM
I would love to foster and someday when I am home all day(and my young dogs are a bit older) I will. I can understand our local shelter's policy of only placing fosters in homes with someone home all day as that is also their policy for adoption and right now I don't qualify. Luckily I have never seen a Cavalier in rescue anywhere close to me and I hope that continues. Our local vets office called me when a Ruby boy that was running loose without a tag was brought in (we don't have a pound or a shelter in town) thinking I might know where he belonged. I didn't but he was reunited with his family the next day.

As far as loving any dog I think that's true but even when adopting from a shelter people have to be careful to get a dog that will suit their lifestyle. I adore the bulldog in Rylie's puppy class but there is no way I could handle the exercise and training requirements of such a large dog. He is by far the best trained dog in our class but I know his owner works really hard at it and still has issues away from class - mostly because he's a puppy but at 80 lbs. people don't say "oh he's so cute" when he jumps up on them - (although I'm working on that with Rylie he gets the cute pass from most people if he makes a mistake). Whether adopting or buying a pet from a breeder I think people have to know as much as they can about the potential pitfalls - health/behaviour/exercise requirements.

mckcomplex
12th December 2009, 06:24 PM
A lot of people feel that their dogs are their "fur kids", but there are just as many others that consider them "property", a "hunting assistant", a "guard" and all sorts of other things. Are you seriously saying you think you can change these people's minds? Seriously? It breaks my heart to see dogs in an outdoor 3x5 kennel their entire life. It does! But we can't haul all these people to jail- or take their dog. Then, the dog would be in a kennel in a shelter, most likely unsocialized, fearful, and therefore unadoptable. If we took away all these animals, then we would really have a shelter overpopulation problem. And, believe me, not every animal should be adopted out.

I'm sorry--I disagree. I think we can and MUST change the minds of people about this. I think almost all behavior problems of dogs begin with people who are uneducated about the right way to raise a dog. That person who considers that dog a "guard?" Yes, they are causing problems by raising a dog to treat strangers--all strangers, usually--as potential threats. Why do we have so many pit bulls and rottweilers in trouble because of aggression? Because people raise them to be killing machines instead of assets to society.

Of course, getting people to change their minds about the status of animals like this will be difficult, but how much have our minds changed about dogs in just the past few years? We've gone from having dogs sitting outside all day long and getting fed only table scraps that their owners wouldn't eat (and getting what was called "black tongue" from all the fat and gristle they shouldn't have been eating) to babies that we'll pay insurance on, feed handmade food, and actually train like children instead of wolves.

Usually, it takes regulation before all minds are changed to really make a difference. As with slavery, or even child labor laws, there will always be outliers (usually in rural outposts!) who will not agree with the change. For instance: http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/childlabor/about.htm. At one point, it was perfectly normal for children as young as three years old to work long hours--first, someone had to decide that there was a problem, and then it was a long, slow haul to getting everyone else to see the problem, passing laws and regulating, and now, years later, it would be unthinkable to see a ten year old working at a factory. It takes time, yes, but someone has to be willing to fight for the change first.

There's no denying that there's been a huge change in how we view dogs, and more minds will change with more opportunities for education. We can't just sit and wait to for the laws to catch up with our feelings about animals. So, no, I'm not advocating that we take dogs away from people who use them to hunt, but I do think we should insist on better regulation of dog care and more education for those who plan to own dogs.

WoodHaven
12th December 2009, 06:38 PM
Hate to tell you-- child labor still exists.
Some dogs have jobs-- many herding dogs NEED to have jobs. As Trisha said, taking a working dog from someone because it doesn't live the life YOU want for it is self defeating.
I used to watch animal planet and I am surprised how many times they "rescue pets" to be pts. Patting themselves on the back for their exemplary job rescuing animals (snuffing out lives). I realize sometimes it is necessary-- but I think the animals would prefer a different outcome. Hey, I may be alone in this thought.

mckcomplex
12th December 2009, 06:43 PM
Hate to tell you-- child labor still exists.
Some dogs have jobs-- many herding dogs NEED to have jobs. As Trisha said, taking a working dog from someone because it doesn't live the life YOU want for it is self defeating.
I used to watch animal planet and I am surprised how many times they "rescue pets" to be pts. Patting themselves on the back for their exemplary job rescuing animals (snuffing out lives). I realize sometimes it is necessary-- but I think the animals would prefer a different outcome. Hey, I may be alone in this thought.

Right--of course it still exists, but certainly not on the scale it once did. This all comes down to what we discussed earlier. Just because you're not going to ever be able to eradicate every bit of bad in the world doesn't mean you shouldn't make the effort. ;)

And I don't think I ever said it was wrong for dogs to have a job. You're taking my viewpoints out of context. Border Collies MUST have a job because they have so much energy--in fact, in their case, it would be families who want to get a border collie because they're "so adorable" that would need to be educated. Wouldn't it be nice if border collies, labs, german shepards, and other high energy dogs didn't end up in a shelter because families were educated enough to know what they were taking on with those breeds?

chloe92us
12th December 2009, 09:25 PM
If you are against child labor, I hope you don't buy anything made in China! :rolleyes: The truth is, child labor is against the law in the US, and rules about how much you have to pay someone, and how many hours you're allowed to work them, etc etc is exactly why so much industry is moving overseas. Sad, but true. Conceptually, tighter restrictions and laws sounds promising. BUT....usually doesn't work.

As for the example of the family buying a border collie because they are cute...HOW would you elect to better educate this buyer? With the internet, the information IS out there...what do you propose would make them do the research and then change their buying decision? Most puppy purchases are done on a whim. That is our mentality (yes, blanket statement!); instant gratification. And, yes, I am guilty as charged.

The bottom line is, the information is out there; online, books, magazines, Vet's offices, shelters, TV specials, etc etc. The saying "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink!" comes to mind.

Trust me, I wish everyone who had a dog let them live inside, sleep in bed with them, go on vacation with them, etc. But it's just not a reality and never will be.

mckcomplex
12th December 2009, 10:18 PM
If you are against child labor, I hope you don't buy anything made in China! :rolleyes: The truth is, child labor is against the law in the US, and rules about how much you have to pay someone, and how many hours you're allowed to work them, etc etc is exactly why so much industry is moving overseas. Sad, but true. Conceptually, tighter restrictions and laws sounds promising. BUT....usually doesn't work.

I agree, which is why I also favor more regulation of companies who hire out work overseas. However, if you look at the changes we've made in the US, I would definitely say there's a silver lining to that cloud. You don't see many toddlers toddling around the factory here; nor would you see many people who would allow it (even though one hundred years ago, it would have been par for the course.)


As for the example of the family buying a border collie because they are cute...HOW would you elect to better educate this buyer? With the internet, the information IS out there...what do you propose would make them do the research and then change their buying decision? Most puppy purchases are done on a whim. That is our mentality (yes, blanket statement!); instant gratification. And, yes, I am guilty as charged.

As I said earlier in this discussion, we require new drivers to take a course in driving education. We do that because drivers are affecting their own as well as others' lives. When people buy puppies, they affect so much more than just the puppies. They affect the strangers who might be bitten by the dog if it's undersocialized; they affect the already crowded shelters if they don't know how to train the dog and end up with behavior problems they don't want to deal with; they affect all of the people in the future who will have to try to find a home for that dog down to someone who might someday have to put that dog to sleep. Why shouldn't people who are going to buy a puppy take a puppy education class? As Karlin said earlier, research has shown that people who take one are less likely to take dogs to shelters, so wouldn't that be a winning situation for everyone? The fact is, instant gratification just shouldn't cut it anymore--look at the problems it has caused. You can say that regulation won't work, but one thing that we know for SURE that hasn't worked is just saying the information is "out there." Sure it is--but the reason why people don't look for it goes deeper than just instant gratification--it also speaks to our cultural views that owning an animal is easy: you just feed 'em, water 'em, and let them go. THAT is the idea that we need to combat, and the only way we can do that is by changing the mentality of people toward our pets.


Trust me, I wish everyone who had a dog let them live inside, sleep in bed with them, go on vacation with them, etc. But it's just not a reality and never will be.

People have said so many different issues would never be brought to the forefront throughout history--the abolition of slavery, civil rights of all kinds--and yet, although all those problems haven't been solved, at least we can't say we haven't made some steps forward. We won't get anywhere, though, if we don't have discussions like this and try out different solutions to see what works. :)

chloe92us
12th December 2009, 10:37 PM
You don't see many toddlers toddling around the factory here; nor would you see many people who would allow it (even though one hundred years ago, it would have been par for the course.)

Maybe that's why there's not much work ethic left in the States! ;) (JK)

mckcomplex
13th December 2009, 02:24 AM
Maybe that's why there's not much work ethic left in the States! ;) (JK)

Heh, that's what I say. Put 'em to work in the animal shelter factory nice and early, and grow 'em up right. ;)

gocamping
15th December 2009, 06:12 PM
Good discussions. Everyone can do their part by educating any perspective dog owner. There are so many ways to do this on a daily basis. I am a girlscout leader. Every year, we do some form of petcare badge. I feel that we are reaching small groups. Two weeks ago, I got to take my therapy dog to school. 100 more kids got educated.

I also volunteer on fostering for our local cavaliers. I usually take the puppies. They think I am nuts, but I like giving these guys a good start in a home environment. For the last 2 summers, my daughters have fostered and trained during the summer.

I think it would be awesome if everyone took a dog class, but the reality of the situation is that people don't know what to look for in a good training class. I have 2 such examples even for myself.

I do believe that people should pick dogs for their lifestyle. I am always amazed that people return dogs to shelters with the reason that we didn't know how big he would get!:bang:

I also think shelters should do a better job of explaining Lab mix. What is the mix?

I encourage everyone to help with a local rescue. There are so many jobs. If you are too busy right now, I encourage you to call and ask them what they need. Old towels, vinegar. Have some free weekends, ask to put on transport. I love to transport. It doesn't always work with our schedules, but I do it when I can. I always hope they continue to e-mail us.

Get out there everyone that currently owns a dog and I am sure you will have at least one opportunity today to share some great knowledge.