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Rescuing dogs

WoodHaven

Well-known member
As someone who has spent the last 8.5+ years doing what she can for rescue, I'd like to discuss the needs of those in shelters vs. buying a dog from a breeder.

The idea that buying a dog from a reputable breeder KILLS a dog in rescue is ridiculous. It is pure animal rights bull.
IF that idea is Pure-- than no one should have their own child while ANY child is sitting waiting to be adopted.
Breeders-- responsible breeders need to be breeding dogs that FIT within peoples homes and lives or all we'll have left are the dogs that were given up (due to health issues, lack of training etc... ). Do you realize that breeders RARELY give up their pups/dogs-- it is usually a bad owner that gives up a poorly trained or ill thought of pet.
Sorry, but I've had it with the rhetoric.
 
I'm afraid there is rhetoric on both sides, not just on one, WoodHaven.

The fact is, it IS irresponsible to have children in an overcrowded world that's exhausting its resources. Does that mean we shouldn't have children? Of course not. But does it mean that we shouldn't try to find a solution and stop irresponsible breeding of HUMANS as well as animals?

Of course if someone buys a puppy from a breeder, that doesn't mean there's a needle in the neck of a dog at the shelter next door--but it does mean that for every adorable puppy bred and bought, there's another older dog of the "wrong" breed that's still sitting in a shelter.

And it is a myth that most shelter dogs are put in a shelter because of health or training issues. And usually, even it there are behavior problems, they can be fixed with a little time, effort, and Dunbar methodology. As someone who has visited a lot of shelters to see a lot of eight month old puppies with nothing more than housetraining problems, I know what I'm talking about.
 
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I'm afraid there is rhetoric on both sides, not just on one, WoodHaven.

The fact is, it IS irresponsible to have children in an overcrowded world that's exhausting its resources. Does that mean we shouldn't have children? Of course not. But does it mean that we shouldn't try to find a solution and stop irresponsible breeding of HUMANS as well as animals?

Of course if someone buys a puppy from a breeder, that doesn't mean there's a needle in the neck of a dog at the shelter next door--but it does mean that for every adorable puppy bred and bought, there's another older dog of the "wrong" breed that's still sitting in a shelter.

10+ years ago I looked at shelter dogs (wanting to do the reponsible thing). One lunged at me, OUT, the next one that was under 5 was.... vastly undersocialized (that is the nice word). The rest were over 5 and I had just lost my 14+ year old cocker to old age issues. Went to another shelter and the smell drove me out. NOW, had I been to the multimillion dollar shelter they have on Wisconsin st, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.... I may have found a dog that fit my home, family and needs. I am very glad that I "found" the CKCS. My Katrina is my 'special' dog. She is why I volunteer and rehabiliate rescues that haven't gotten the best lives.

Anyone who puts an 8 month old dog in a shelter due to housetraining issues needs their heads examined. 90% of the time early housetraining issues are the due to HUMAN error-- not dog issues. We don't get many 8 month old ANY BREEDS here.
 
Well, unfortunately, while we're quite willing to make big sacrifices for our children when they end up having problems (and anyway, that sort of thing is legislated), we're much more willing to think of animals as toys that can be dropped off at the shelter if we suddenly find that taking them out to go potty eight times a day is a bit too hard for us.

Once again, not pointing any fingers, but how can we call our dogs our children and then drop them off at a shelter when something goes awry?

I realize that this might bring up a great deal of controversy from people who have had to give up their dogs for legitimate reasons--and I'm sure there are legitimate reasons, so please don't think I'm making a blanket statement--but the fact is that too many people are willing to give animals up for reasons that they CAN control if they only cared enough.

What we need here is a change in attitude from people--and I honestly think that does need legislature. The reason that dog at the shelter was undersocialized is because he/she had owners who were ignorant of the right way to raise a dog. What if everyone who bought a puppy had to take a class about caring for a puppy?
 
I have the utmost respect for anyone who adopts a dog from a shelter. The experience I have had and that of family and friends haven't been ideal health wise or behaviour wise. One of the dogs in Max's agility class is an ex-breeding bitch from a shelter and she is a lovely girl although she still has issues with new dogs. A co-worker of mine was refused as a potential adopter because she worked outside the home so I think the shelters around here at least must have more people wanting to adopt than dogs for adoption.

If I couldn't have a Cavalier I'm not sure I'd have a dog. Their personalities suit me better than any other dog I've known.
 
Well, unfortunately, while we're quite willing to make big sacrifices for our children when they end up having problems (and anyway, that sort of thing is legislated), we're much more willing to think of animals as toys that can be dropped off at the shelter if we suddenly find that taking them out to go potty eight times a day is a bit too hard for us.

Once again, not pointing any fingers, but how can we call our dogs our children and then drop them off at a shelter when something goes awry?

I realize that this might bring up a great deal of controversy from people who have had to give up their dogs for legitimate reasons--and I'm sure there are legitimate reasons, so please don't think I'm making a blanket statement--but the fact is that too many people are willing to give animals up for reasons that they CAN control if they only cared enough.

What we need here is a change in attitude from people--and I honestly think that does need legislature. The reason that dog at the shelter was undersocialized is because he/she had owners who were ignorant of the right way to raise a dog. What if everyone who bought a puppy had to take a class about caring for a puppy?

One of the things that I've learned in my long time on this rock is: You can't legislate morality. They (the immoral) will ditch their dogs if they can't drop them off. Or shoot them. Two situations that are truly worse than being dropped off.
 
How is requiring future puppy owners to take a class about caring for puppies legislating morality?

In that case, should we not have classes teaching people how to drive? In my experience, you have classes to show you how to drive because the way you drive affects those around you as well as yourself. Wouldn't you say owning a puppy affects not only you, but also the puppy and the people in the puppy's future who will be dealing with it if you don't train it correctly?

Most of the dogs I've heard talked about on this thread had problems because of human error--undersocialized, untrained, or used as a breeding bitch by unethical breeders--we all know that any dog can be a sweetheart, if he/she has the right training.
 
How is requiring future puppy owners to take a class about caring for puppies legislating morality?

In that case, should we not have classes teaching people how to drive? In my experience, you have classes to show you how to drive because the way you drive affects those around you as well as yourself. Wouldn't you say owning a puppy affects not only you, but also the puppy and the people in the puppy's future who will be dealing with it if you don't train it correctly?

How is legislating a class going to change much of anything. I've never needed a puppy class. I've taken a dog through a year of advanced obedience and handling classes, but neither changed my relationship with my dog.
I also knew how to drive by the time I was twelve. Didn't need a class for that either. I drove a tractor, a four wheeler and a motor cycle without a class. Training a dog is much like training a child, or a co worker or a husband. Positive reinforcement and goal orientation.
 
In both cases then (driving and owning a puppy), why do so many people have trouble?

Maybe you are a natural at both of those subjects, but if everyone else was as well, there wouldn't be nearly as many dogs in the shelter, and there wouldn't be nearly as many wrecks on the road.
 
In both cases then (driving and owning a puppy), why do so many people have trouble?

Maybe you are a natural at both of those subjects, but if everyone else was as well, there wouldn't be nearly as many dogs in the shelter, and there wouldn't be nearly as many wrecks on the road.

Impulse buying... puppies are sooo cute. They don't realize that puppies are so much work- training- expense. When I home pups and/or dogs I try to give people the BAD first. That a 12 week old pup may need to get out in the middle of the night to PEE. AND it isn't the pups fault or problem. That a new rescue WILL crap (excuse me) on your carpet. They need to be taught were to go and when they do well, you celebrate successes and/or clean up the messes. That love and patience will go a LOT farther than cursing and hitting. If a dog BONDS to you.... it will do anything to make you happy(especially cavaliers). It is a true irony.
 
This is not about you, and this is not about me. This is about people who are uneducated about these problems, and there are many.

I have a masters degree and have dedicated my life to education at the college level, and I STILL didn't know that puppy mills even existed until about a year ago.

Maybe you are a great breeder, and maybe you do home your pups with fantastic people, but that doesn't change a mite about all the other dogs from uneducated breeders going to uneducated people. (And by uneducated, I mean about these problems, not in general)

We have to do more. We have to get this information to more people, and there should be a way to keep tabs on it legally. Adopting children is legislated--if we're going to call our dogs our children, why shouldn't we make sure people are prepared to care for them? For all of our efforts, there are still ten million dogs a year getting PTS in shelters, and that is unacceptable.

This is an indictment of all of us, not one of us. I speak just as loudly to myself when I say this because I personally have not done enough.

In the words of Alice Walker, "We are the ones we have been waiting for." And that's not rhetoric--it's just the truth.
 
My dogs are not my 'adoptive children' -- they are my property and I give them a great life.
If I can't raise the worlds children, I definitively can't raise the world PETS.

I don't know where you got your 10 million-- but according to my numbers, that is WWWAYYYY overestimated. My numbers are 3+ million pets in the USA being pts-- over half are cats. There are about 6 mil going into shelters and just about 60% are pts. Many of these are older, big and ill dogs that people can't handle. The problem is people are giving money to PeTa & HSUS and they don't handle these issues. They just seem to collect the money in their 'name'
 
My dogs are not my 'adoptive children' -- they are my property and I give them a great life.

There are certainly different numbers given out by different organizations, but are you saying 3 or 4 million is chump change? Anyway, 3 or 4 million is just for the U.S., not worldwide.

And furthermore--your dogs are your property? I think this conversation is over. There is no way we could ever see eye to eye. I just can't see this put together: I give my property a great life.

If there's life, it's not property.
 
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There are certainly different numbers given out by different organizations, but are you saying 3 or 4 million is chump change? Anyway, 3 or 4 million is just for the U.S., not worldwide.

And furthermore--your dogs are your property? I think this conversation is over. There is no way we could ever see eye to eye. I just can't see this put together: I give a great life to my property.

If there's life, it's not property.

Please speak from knowledge and not emotion... dogs are property under the law and as such are protected as such... or someone could swoop in and declare your furbabies uncared for properly and take them away.

Under 2 million dogs per year-- seems a lot less than 10 million. And many people have 'given away' their sick and/or problematic dogs. If I didn't have the 100+ dollars to euthanize an ill dog-- I might be forced to give it to a shelter to do it for me.

The most embarrassing part is my dogs live a better life than most children. They have their own ophthalmologists, cardiologists, neurologist, and reproduction experts than my children ever had.
 
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Right, dogs are property--which is precisely why the legislation needs to change.

Because if dogs are property, then what is the problem with the dogs in the shelters or with euthanasia of healthy animals? After all, property is something that can be bought, sold, abandoned, trashed--it exists solely for your pleasure.

The thought that dogs are property is exactly what has landed so many dogs in this situation in the first place. As long as dogs are thought of as mere property, there will be so much more heartache. From what I remember about history, there were a lot of people who disagreed that slaves should be named property for a long time before there was actually any legislature that gave them rights. If it hadn't been for those people, would there ever have been a war that led to change?

Now, what do you say--but we don't treat our dogs like property, but better than our children? And yet, you don't want to assure that legally they get the same treatment as children . . .
 
Right, dogs are property--which is precisely why the legislation needs to change.

Because if dogs are property, then what is the problem with the dogs in the shelters or with euthanasia? After all, property is something that can be bought, sold, abandoned, trashed--it exists solely for your pleasure.

The thought that dogs are property is exactly what has landed so many dogs in this situation in the first place. As long as dogs are thought of as mere property, there will be so much more heartache. From what I remember about history, there were a lot of people who disagreed that slaves should be named property for a long time before there was actually any legislature that gave them rights. If it hadn't been for those people, would there ever have been a war that led to change?

Now, what do you say--but we don't treat our dogs like property, but better than our children? And yet, you don't want to assure that legally they get the same treatment as children . . .


I don't want 'others' to have power over my 'fur kids' as it were. What if some ding bat decides that crates are inhumane?? Mine are in crates for 5 hours a day. It keeps them from mischief while I am gone. IF they were "children" that would be unacceptable. AND I agree that children shouldn't be put in a 3 x 2 crate for 5 hours a day... but IF I let my dogs free 24/7 they would do damage to: my home and each other. So, yes... my dogs are property so "I" can make these decisions without some idiot saying they should be free.

Shelters deciding to euthanize healthy, adoptable animals is their own issue. No one is forcing them to-- they decide to do this. If the HSUS put their dollars to use, this wouldn't be necessary.
 
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I think there's a bit of a difference here because it is accepted by animal behaviorists that crating is a natural and intelligent way to train dogs.

Here's the analogy: No one's going to take your child away because you spank them or don't spank them. Even though many people agree that spanking is not effective long term, no one is going to follow you around in your home to make sure you're not lifting a finger to them.

However, if your child goes to school with bruises that you gave them with the spanking, then YES, that child should be taken away from you.

So, no, crating for five hours a day isn't harmful--but how about ten hours a day? How about crating one for so long that they can't be effectively potty-trained? You think people like that should have a dog?
 
I tried to adopt a cat from a shelter many years ago, and they turned me away because I didn't already have a cat at home. :confused: They said cats get bored and need company, so they only adopt out to homes that have one or more cats already. I was floored!!!! I explained to them that I was an "at home mom", and the cat would received plenty of attention, but NO they wouldn't budge. :mad: I hope they have lightened up on the rules by now so more animals can be placed in nice homes.
 
I tried to adopt a cat from a shelter many years ago, and they turned me away because I didn't already have a cat at home. :confused: They said cats get bored and need company, so they only adopt out to homes that have one or more cats already. I was floored!!!! I explained to them that I was an "at home mom", and the cat would received plenty of attention, but NO they wouldn't budge. :mad: I hope they have lightened up on the rules by now so more animals can be placed in nice homes.

That is insane! Especially since cats are generally more independent than dogs and overall less inclined to tackle the garbage can when you're not around!
 
I think there's a bit of a difference here because it is accepted by animal behaviorists that crating is a natural and intelligent way to train dogs.

Here's the analogy: No one's going to take your child away because you spank them or don't spank them. Even though many people agree that spanking is not effective long term, no one is going to follow you around in your home to make sure you're not lifting a finger to them.

However, if your child goes to school with bruises that you gave them with the spanking, then YES, that child should be taken away from you.

So, no, crating for five hours a day isn't harmful--but how about ten hours a day? How about crating one for so long that they can't be effectively potty-trained? You think people like that should have a dog?

Crates are not accepted policy by all animal control. Fact. Smart people-- crates used correctly yes,,,,all animal rights people-NO.

A woman was taken away because she ran money to the bell ringer at walmart and left her child for less than one minute strapped in the car.. Yes Virginia... people are watching. Another woman smacked her child in another parking lot and got brought up on charges of abuse. -- she smacked his diaper and didn't make a mark-- she still had to go to court.

I don't want my treatment of my dogs (even tho my vet thinks I am the best)to be subject to every tom, dick and harry that has a humane society leaning. So yes, they are mine... mine to love, nurture and protect.
 
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