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Karlin
4th January 2010, 11:42 AM
The long awaited Bateson report is due out and early reports suggest breeders will be registered to address health issues. This is an advance story so details cannot be verified -- report is out January 14th. Original link:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6974649.ece



From The Times
January 4, 2010
Dog breeders to be registered in attempt to reduce canine deformities

Certain breeds, including bulldogs, are cited as being of concern
Valerie Elliott, Consumer Editor

A shake-up in the way that dogs are bought and sold is to be proposed by an inquiry into the future of canine breeding in Britain.

Plans for a compulsory registration scheme for breeders — whether of pedigrees or crosses — has emerged in a report by Professor Sir Patrick Bateson, a leading zoologist, which aims to stamp out controversial breeding practices in which puppies are born with disease and deformities.

The Times has learnt that only breeders with a registered number and who are subject to checks on their animals and premises would be allowed to sell or advertise the sale of puppies.

The proposals, which are already in force in France, are an attempt to draw a line under the unscrupulous breeding of dogs for the competition ring, which was highlighted in the television documentary Pedigree Dogs Exposed on BBC One 16 months ago.

In future it is envisaged that all puppies would also be sold with a veterinary certificate guaranteeing their health and stating the name of their parents as well as the registered number of the breeder. All dogs would be microchipped and breeders would be subject to random inspections.

Professor Bateson’s blueprint, commissioned by the Kennel Club and the Dogs’ Trust, is to be published this month. It is certain to provoke fury among some breeders, but he believes that change is now inevitable.

Inbreeding of dogs was one of his main concerns, Professor Bateson said. The Kennel Club has banned the mating of parent dogs with offspring and siblings. He believes that this should be extended to grandparent and half-sibling dogs.

The club already has an accredited breeder scheme, but it is voluntary. Of the 150,000 pedigree puppies registered with the club each year, only 10 per cent are from breeders signed up to the inspection and audit regime.

Professor Bateson said that in future he expected registration to be restricted to accredited breeders who follow tough health and welfare rules.

The club has already reviewed the standards for each breed, but Professor Bateson questioned the organisation’s role as “judge and jury”. He favours instead a new statutory body to oversee all breeding practices. “I think regulation is the only way to do it. The public need to insist they know the pedigree of a dog and that it has been properly looked after, and only go to accredited breeders,” he said.

Margaret C
4th January 2010, 01:05 PM
Breeders that have the welfare of their dogs at heart would have no reason to object to these proposals.

It would certainly discourage puppy farmers and BYB.

Karlin
4th January 2010, 01:10 PM
Yes i would think the biggest effect would be to seriously curtail puppy farms and BYBs because they would now have to register and chip their dogs. We have this type of system proposed in Ireland but only for more than 5 breeding bitches -- I'd like to see it for ANY number of breeding dogs. If Bateson proposes something broader I will be pressing the irish government to bring in a similar scheme as our bill is just being set for discussion..

Bet
4th January 2010, 02:22 PM
Can I just mention that the Out Cry has already started amongst some Cavalier Breeders about this early report, blaming the Puppy Farmers and BYB's for the Ill Health in our Beloved Cavaliers.

I do know that Professor Sir P Bateson has made particular mention about one of his main concerns ,was Inbreeding.

He now believes that there should be no Half Brother to Half Sister Matings,....Grand Father to Grand Daughter Matings, Grand Mother to to Grand Son Matings.

The Grand Parent Matings have been very Common Practice for Decades in our Cavalier Breed amongst CKCS CLUB Members. Not Puppy Farmers or BYB's

Just look at the Pedigrees.

So are we now to conclude this is why so many of our Cavaliers have suffered from the Health Problems that have afflicted Cavaliers.

sins
4th January 2010, 05:14 PM
I haven't come across any outcry about the proposals to be fair...
Anything I saw,seemed to refer to the Times article where it states

The proposals, which are already in force in France, are an attempt to draw a line under the unscrupulous breeding of dogs for the competition ring
It makes no mention of the influence of the many puppy farms and role of the puppy farmer or BYB in the spread of canine inherited defects.
Margaret is correct to say breeders that have the welfare of their dogs at heart would have no reason to object to these proposals.
There are quite a few who comfortably exceed the standard required to comply with any proposed legislation...some will get there sooner rather than later so the future is looking very positive I feel.
However there are a few areas which would be problematic.
The veterinary certificate accompanying a pup "guaranteeing their health"... Does it mean the pup is free of infectious diseases and detectable defects as it leaves the breeder's establishment,or is it suggesting a period of guarantee?? How can you guarantee that a pup hasn't inherited a defect that may not appear until it's 2 or 6? This is a large grey area and obviously a numerically large breed like the cavalier with both MVD and SM in the genepool how do you balance the rights of the breeder with the rights of the consumer?
Inbreeding is a tricky issue.The problem with cavaliers was the inbreeding at the start of the breed rather than the current level of inbreeding.I've only come across one brother sister/mating and one mother/son mating that I'm aware of and they may even have been accidental...
If the genes for SM or MVD are discovered it may be essential to resort to close inbreeding to protect an emerging healthy line .
I always worry about the enforcement of legislation though.Those responsible for enforcing it have a habit of visiting the mostly compliant middle classes and meeting targets and collecting revenue,rather than tackling the tough jobs....which would you choose, visit a show breeders kennel and check paperwork or hunt through tractor tyres to find litters of pups in the back of a mucky shed somewhere???
Bateson is supposed to be about all purebred dogs, not just those bred for the showring.
Sins

Karlin
4th January 2010, 05:56 PM
I'd think a certificate would be for the health of the puppy at that moment, so that at least it is certified healthy at the point of homing. This is required for exporting for example, and many good breeders do this anyway as a matter of course. But APGAW also addressed this same issue from the angle of testing -- that if the dog subsequently develops problems that the sire/dam were not and should have been tested for, the breeder could be liable.

There has long been an attempt to shift the argument away from club/show breeding issues to one of 'puppy farms and BYBs ruin everything', but this is a red herring -- they are two different but related issues and addressing one does not mean the other is not being addressed. Also there are many in clubs who are little short of puppy farmers/commercial breeders or BYBs themselves and everyone in clubs is well aware of this. That is even more the case with the broader KC where the barrier to entry and registration is depressingly low.

If the Bateson report is as stated in the Times article this would have a huge affect on puppy farming and BYB breeding as buyers would know exactly what they should be able to walk away with on the purchase of a puppy and it would have traceability back to the breeder. Nothing would be more discouraging to the trade in puppies than this. It would give a solid foundation too for the KC to have a meaningful accredited breeders scheme and some real element of better quality breeding associated with KC registration on top of just plain breeder registration.

I would think breeders with the welfare of the breed and with an abhorrence of puppy farming and backyard breeding will welcome such recommendations for finally putting some teeth into legislation to control mass or casual breeding, and to enforce greater breeding focus on health as part of conformation rather than just money or show trophies.

Bet
4th January 2010, 06:03 PM
Professor Sir P Bateson was not just mentioning the Inbreeding of Half Brother Half Sister Matings, what surprised me was his Mention of Grand-Parent Matings .

This has been taking place in the Cavalier Breed for many ,many Years.

I think many Cavalier Breeders called this Line Breeding.

Check Cavalier Pedigrees.

To the question of Vet Certificates guaranteeing the Health of the Puppy ,I don't know, but could this mean that there would have to be a Health Certificate showing that the Puppie's Sire and Dam had a Health Certificate.I think we will have to wait till The Report is Published.Also I had noticed that mention was being made about the Cavalier Breeders as being the Bad Guys on a Cavalier List.

The Launch of this Report is I believe next week, so I expect the Press will also be there, then I would think many questions will be being asked and answered.

Bet
4th January 2010, 06:25 PM
Karlin just noticed your Post.

Professor Bateson had mentioned this subject on his Video, about 4 months ago,that if a Dog developed a Health Problem ,and the Breeder had not carried out the Health Test for that Particular Health Problem ,in the Breed, then the Breeder could be held responsible, and the Dog Buyer would be able to go to Court and a Dog Society would be able provide help in funding this.

Whether this is what will be meant ,I don't know.

I really do think though,what we have learned to-day about the The Report ,the Days of Puppy Farmers ,BYB's and other unscrupulous Dog Breeders' days are now numbered.

Margaret C
4th January 2010, 10:33 PM
Inbreeding is a tricky issue.The problem with cavaliers was the inbreeding at the start of the breed rather than the current level of inbreeding.I've only come across one brother sister/mating and one mother/son mating that I'm aware of and they may even have been accidental...

Some good points Sin, but I think most breeders underestimate the amount of inbreeding in cavaliers & other pedigree dogs.

Just because the KC and breeders insist that grandparent to grandchild and aunt to nephew breeding is line breeding, not inbreeding, does not alter the fact that carried out over generations this has the same detrimental effect.

In cavaliers a grandfather will not only father a litter to his granddaughter but could also be in the pedigree as a great uncle, a great grandfather, & a great great grandfather.
Because of genetic bottlenecks, and overuse of popular sires, show stock can be inbred to a frightening degree. Owners and breeders need to look at the duplication of names that are beyond the five generation pedigree to understand the full extent of interrelatedness.

During the Middle Ages, when the isolation of rural communities led to villages populated by large extended families, the Church forbade the marriage of closely related couples because this led to health problems in the offspring of such unions. ( the so-called village idiot )
This is an interesting article that illustrates what happened to the Hapsburg dynasty...........

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/revealed-the-inbreeding-that-ruined-the-hapsburgs-1668857.html


If the genes for SM or MVD are discovered it may be essential to resort to close inbreeding to protect an emerging healthy line

If this becomes necessary it will hopefully be managed by the breed clubs with the guidance of genetic advisors.
Inbreeding should no longer be used by breeders whose only interest is to continue to breed a particular 'type'

Bet
5th January 2010, 10:04 AM
Thanks Margaret for the Link.It sure can focus the mind on the Inbred-Coefficients in our Cavalier Breed.

There are In-Bred Coefficients of 44.6% in our Cavaliers ,I contacted Dr M Willis ,Geneticist ,here in Britain about this ,he replied that this was the highest he had seen in a Dog Breed.

I do know that there are COE in Cavaliers of 30% and 20%,these have been worked out.

Are we now getting to the Nitty Gritty ,through the High In-Bred COE in our Cavalier Breed ,is this is why the Cavalier Breed is in such a mess to-day because of it's Health Problems.

This could tie in with Professor Comment's in the Preliminary Report about In-breeding being one of his Main Concerns.

I wonder if for Cavalier Breeders ,this will now have to checked before a Cavalier mating can take place.

sins
5th January 2010, 11:39 AM
The AENA cavalier database gives a %COI. How accurate it is I'm not sure.
I tried an experiment with Daisy's pedigree..picked a starting point and followed a random ancestor back along..her
Ch grandsire (1991) COI 2.65%
GGdam(1987) COI 7.89%
GGGdam (1984) 6.13%
GGGGsire Ronnoc True Luck (1975) COI 12.38%
GGGGGsire (1970) COI 12.73%
GGGGGGsire (1966) COI 17.27%
GGGGGGGsire (1962) COI 20.41%
GGGGGGGGdam (1956) COI 25.74%
GGGGGGGGGsire Daywell Roger (1948) COI 25.74%
GGGGGGGGGGdam Daywell nell (1939) COI 25%
GGGGGGGGGGGsire Ann's Son....(1927)
I'm not sure what this tells us about inbreeding other than I'm very distracted at work this morning....:p
Sins

Bet
5th January 2010, 02:50 PM
If any one is interested there are some of the COI on the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club .Inc website .

Go onto the Health part ,scroll to Heritage bit ,and you will see some there.

this was done with a 10 generation formula

WoodHaven
5th January 2010, 03:22 PM
If any one is interested there are some of the COI on the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club .Inc website .

Go onto the Health part ,scroll to Heritage bit ,and you will see some there.

this was done with a 10 generation formula

You are assuming a lot. First of all, even today we are catching mistakes in pedigrees. With DNA we can correct errors that would be perpetuated way back when. It took me over a year to get the GG grandsire of my pups errors fixed. AND I got fined 250 dollars for being late to register:sl*p:

AND an 8 generation COI calculation is 510 distinctive decendants according to the program I use-- IF you can do ANY 10 generation without any 'holes' I would be shocked. What are the chances of it being correct??

There are some very long lived cavaliers that have rather high COI's.

WoodHaven
5th January 2010, 03:27 PM
The AENA cavalier database gives a %COI. How accurate it is I'm not sure.
I tried an experiment with Daisy's pedigree..picked a starting point and followed a random ancestor back along..her
Ch grandsire (1991) COI 2.65%
GGdam(1987) COI 7.89%
GGGdam (1984) 6.13%
GGGGsire Ronnoc True Luck (1975) COI 12.38%
GGGGGsire (1970) COI 12.73%
GGGGGGsire (1966) COI 17.27%
GGGGGGGsire (1962) COI 20.41%
GGGGGGGGdam (1956) COI 25.74%
GGGGGGGGGsire Daywell Roger (1948) COI 25.74%
GGGGGGGGGGdam Daywell nell (1939) COI 25%
GGGGGGGGGGGsire Ann's Son....(1927)
I'm not sure what this tells us about inbreeding other than I'm very distracted at work this morning....:p
Sins
Sins, if you want you can pm me the sire and dam of your girl and I can see if the program I use can give you a number.

Oreo
5th January 2010, 05:02 PM
The AENA cavalier database gives a %COI. How accurate it is I'm not sure.
I tried an experiment with Daisy's pedigree..picked a starting point and followed a random ancestor back along..her
Ch grandsire (1991) COI 2.65%
GGdam(1987) COI 7.89%
GGGdam (1984) 6.13%
GGGGsire Ronnoc True Luck (1975) COI 12.38%
GGGGGsire (1970) COI 12.73%
GGGGGGsire (1966) COI 17.27%
GGGGGGGsire (1962) COI 20.41%
GGGGGGGGdam (1956) COI 25.74%
GGGGGGGGGsire Daywell Roger (1948) COI 25.74%
GGGGGGGGGGdam Daywell nell (1939) COI 25%
GGGGGGGGGGGsire Ann's Son....(1927)
I'm not sure what this tells us about inbreeding other than I'm very distracted at work this morning....:p
Sins

It tells me Britannia of Ttiweh is Daisy's GGGGGGGGdam! (I recognized the year and COI).
Her son, Ch Cedric of Ttiweh is Daisy's GGGGGGGsire (he was born in 59 - the 1962 is attached to his Championship). Ch Vairire Osiris was her GGGGGGsire, then Ch Rose Mullion of Ottermouth . . .

If you study Cavalier pedigrees you'll find this chain behind a TON of pedigrees, often many times behind many of the earlier ancestors. I've not found a Cavalier pedigree yet without at least the earliest dogs on Daisy's pedigree in their's as well, often many times. Of course, Daywell Roger was a founder, but I'm speaking about the ones younger than that.

This shows how selection of popular sires affects breeds profoundly.

It is fun to do a reverse pedigree on some of these popular dogs and see their numerous descendants. :grin: . . . OK, well I find it fun.

WoodHaven
5th January 2010, 05:09 PM
It tells me Britannia of Ttiweh is Daisy's GGGGGGGGdam! (I recognized the year and COI).
Her son, Ch Cedric of Ttiweh is Daisy's GGGGGGGsire (he was born in 59 - the 1962 is attached to his Championship). Ch Vairire Osiris was her GGGGGGsire, then Ch Rose Mullion of Ottermouth . . .

If you study Cavalier pedigrees you'll find this chain behind a TON of pedigrees, often many times behind many of the earlier ancestors. I've not found a Cavalier pedigree yet without at least the earliest dogs on Daisy's pedigree in their's as well, usually many times.

This shows how selection of popular sires affects breeds profoundly.

It is fun to do a reverse pedigree on some of these popular dogs and see their numerous descendants. :grin: . . . OK, well I find it fun.

No--IT IS fun!! The program I use tells you how many holes (unknowns) and how many 'unique' ancestors the cavalier has.
On my last breeding- there were 496 known ancestors (meaning 14 unknowns) and it tells me the pups will have a COI of 6.67% --

sins
5th January 2010, 05:09 PM
Thanks Sandy,
I've emailed you a copy of her five gen pedigree. I'd be curious to see what you find.Thanks for doing this.
Sins

Nicki
5th January 2010, 06:11 PM
The discussion on pedigrees is fascinating - I spend too long on World Pedigrees!! It's great to go back so many generations - and yes, so many of them are related as soon as you go back a few years, which I'm sure is not healthy :(


On the main topic - self regulation did not work, so something else had to happen. I think there are a lot of good points here - although compulsory registration is going to cause a nightmare for rescues initially, as many dogs will just be dumped; long term it will solve a lot of problems. This will drive many of the BYBs and puppy farmers out, which is what is needed.

I'm disappointed with Professor Bateson's comment about breeding for the competition ring - only a fraction of the Cavaliers bred are from show breeders, dogs from other breeders are not free from the same health problems, and often the BYBs and puppy farmers are just as guilty of doing close matings, they don't care whom they are using or what they produce, and the pedigrees are generally totally false anyway.


Sins you made some good points :xctly:


I do wonder how this can all be enforced - but can only hope that it will do good in the future.

Health guarantees are very difficult - how can you predict what will happen in the future with a living being? Also you don't know how a puppy carer will look after that puppy. I agree that if the breeder has done all the health testing - parents and puppies - and carried out matings based on the results### and a vet check just prior to the puppy leaving home, this is all I can understand that they could do. How do you guarantee that the puppy will not have a stomach upset, if their new family change it's food too quickly? How can the breeder be liable for that?

###{which is where the Accredited Breeder Scheme falls down, as long as they've done the screening it doesn't matter what the results show :yikes A Labrador can have the worst possible hip scores, but as long as they did the testing, they can still mate it and register the puppies...}


Most responsible breeders give informative puppy packs, usually some of the food the puppy is currently eating etc, but you can't make the new puppy carer do anything.



Sadly some rather unsrupulous BYBs and puppy farmers, are actually marketing their unregistered puppies by saying that it's only the Kennel Club registered puppies that have these dreaful health problems, their dogs are all healthy :yikes Of course, people always fall for it...


Until we manage to educate puppy buyers, we will always have problems - so many still only care about buying a cheap puppy that is immediately available and they don't want to travel...


I think that although this will do a lot of good, it will also perhaps create an underground market, where this type of buyer will be able to buy their cheap puppy...


Sorry this may be a bit rambled, putting down things as they occur to me and I'm being "told" that it's teatime!!

Karlin
5th January 2010, 06:26 PM
I'm disappointed with Professor Bateson's comment about breeding for the competition ring - only a fraction of the Cavaliers bred are from show breeders, dogs from other breeders are not free from the same health problems, and often the BYBs and puppy farmers are just as guilty of doing close matings, they don't care whom they are using or what they produce, and the pedigrees are generally totally false anyway.


Yes, that is unfortunate. And you point out the worst weaknesses of the Accredited Breeders Scheme -- a LOT would have to change for that programme to have real meaning.

Education is a huge issue and that needs to be a key role of the breed clubs/KCs/individual breeders -- it is directly connected to the remit of being a caretaker of the breed as a whole.

What continues to disappoint me is that pet puppy buyers will become indignant about health issues and breeders while STILL not supporting the health-focused breeders when they go to buy a puppy. If you are going to go for the lowest price/fastest availability from a breeder who does no heath testing then you are no better than the breeder who breeds affected dogs or the puppy farmer (indeed you are either directly or indirectly also supporting the appalling puppy farm industry and backyard breeders who care NOTHING about the breed). If you cannot afford to support the good breeder then for goodness sake, support rescue. The ethics of buying the puppy from the breeder who doesn't properly health screen and breed for health is as rock bottom as the puppy farming industry because that breeder's choices will affect not just the lives of their individual puppies but the families who buy them and the breed overall and its health struggles. Because of your choice, dogs will suffer. PLEASE support the health-focused, testing breeder.

Bet
5th January 2010, 06:28 PM
Oreo,

Thanks for your Post,this is is such a coincidence,

I had contacted Researchers into the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed, explaining and asking whether ,because it's been known here in Britain, and I don't have the information about any other Country,that here there were Cavaliers with Heart Trouble in the 1940's and that there were Cavaliers being used at Stud known to be suffering from Heart Trouble and dying at 7-8 years of age .

Could it be possible that that because of this, there might be many Carriers of the MVD GENE/GENES around now and this is why the Heart Problem does'nt seem to be getting any better.

Iv'e just had a reply to my E-Mail, saying that this is the likely reason, and the LUPA Project and the Research in Scotland are looking at the Genetic aspect of this.

Now we do know that Ch Daywell Roger lived to 12, so did his Sire Cannonhill Richey .
Here's a problem though ANN'S SON Pedigree could be Iffy.

Ch Vairire Osiris was 13.

His son Ch Rosemullion of Ottermouth also lived to 13,

I just don't know ,but would there be a chance of more Cavaliers living to a normal old age from being off-springs of those Cavaliers, than the ones who were off-springs from the ones that were known to have had Heart Trouble in the early days.

I'm starting to confuse myself now.

I'm just sorry that it's not known about the SM Trouble in Cavaliers in those early days ,like the Cavaliers 'Heart Trouble was.

Margaret C
5th January 2010, 09:40 PM
Education is a huge issue and that needs to be a key role of the breed clubs/KCs/individual breeders -- it is directly connected to the remit of being a caretaker of the breed as a whole.



I too believe that education is key to saving our breed. It seems to me that the education of breeders that are not members of a cavalier club, and the information that will help buyers to make sensible choices, has to come from the Kennel Club.

The breed clubs are in the best position to put pressure on the KC to send out health information with registration papers and make advice about responsible breeders easily available to pet owners.
In the light of this belief I have again agreed to be nominated for the Cavalier Club committee.

Some of you will remember that I was nominated last year, and as nobody else stood as a candidate I was elected unopposed. The officers and some of the committee members then threatened to resign and I withdrew my nomination rather than see the Cavalier Club destroyed.

Earlier this year I made the Cavalier Club officers aware that I would probably stand for the committee again, and told them that if they did not want me back on the committee it was their responsibility to nominate enough credible candidates to beat me in a vote of the whole membership.

I will repeat what I said then.......... if I am elected either because I am voted on by the membership, or because there is no other candidates, I will not again be blackmailed into withdrawing.
If the committee again decides to resign in the face of threats of more SGMs, then that is their decision, and any harm done to the Club will be their responsibility.

Karlin
5th January 2010, 11:00 PM
That will make for an election to watch. :)

Carol Fowler
6th January 2010, 09:19 AM
I'm delighted to hear this, Margaret. If elected by the Club membership, you can help to steer the Cavalier breed towards a very healthy future.

I think the majority of the Club members will now be convinced of your expertise in the breeds' health issues, your support of a culture of honesty and openness, your capacity for hard work, and your personal integrity.

I will be voting for you.

Carol

Bet
6th January 2010, 09:58 AM
Same here Carol.

I am sure many others who don't like the Injustice that was meted out to Margaret ,will be doing the same.

Oreo
7th January 2010, 04:06 AM
If any one is interested there are some of the COI on the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club .Inc website .

Go onto the Health part ,scroll to Heritage bit ,and you will see some there.

this was done with a 10 generation formula

Can anyone help with this?

I can't figure out where to find this info, but don't even know if I've started with the right website.

http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/start.html

I started at the above url, and found "health" on the side bar to the left, but can't find "Heritage" anywhere.

Thanx ahead of time.

Oreo

Bet
7th January 2010, 09:19 AM
Oreo,

Silly Me,A Senior Moment, look at

cavalierkingcharlesspanielclub.usa.inc

I am a member of this American Cavalier Club,and had sent them the List I had collected over the years of Long Lived Cavaliers,wondering whether it would maybe help the USA Cavalier Breeders with their Breeding Programs ,since many American Cavaliers likely would have the British Cavaliers in their Pedigree Backgounds.

This was put on the Club's ,What they call their Heritage Site.

Some-body else worked out the COI for some of the Cavaliers .

Just go to the Club's Health Part on their Web Site, scroll to Heritage and you should see what I'm talking about.

If you've still a problem ,just get back to me.

EddyAnne
7th January 2010, 11:02 AM
Oreo try this link.
Long Living Cavaliers with High Inbreeding Coefficients
http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/heritage.nsf/inbred?OpenView&Count=250
.

Oreo
7th January 2010, 02:31 PM
Got it now.:thmbsup: Thanks again for the help.

Just an observation after looking at the list and comparing some of the COIs to those on the AENA site - the AENA COIs must not be over 10 generations.

On the few that I've looked at here, they jump from in the 13-14% range on the AENA site, to 24-25% on the Club list.

Oreo