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MishathePooh
16th January 2010, 05:40 PM
Misha has had bouts of clostridium for about 1 year with it recurring every 2 weeks to 3 months. Diarrhea is unpleasant, but not the worst I've encountered. He's been treated with metronidazole and amoxicillin in the past.

My mom recommended diatomaceous earth. I know it's not supposed to be effective against bacteria, but may help flush them out. I gave it to him as a "can't hurt, might help" sort of thing.

We went to the vet who recommended a short course of amoxicillin, propectalin (antidiarrheal + probiotics) and panacur (dewormer) to cover all the bases. After the short course he is expected to start on long term tylan (tylosin) low dose antibiotic + fortiflora (probiotic). I brought everything home and intend to switch from fortiflora to florentero but wanted to have immediate access (fortiflora picked up from vets) for now and make the switch to florentero when I have more time to get it from Canada into the US.

I have not started Misha on the short course yet. The diatomaceous earth seems to be making him incrementally better every day. He still has some loose foul-smelling stool, but has not been waking up early in the morning having to go out or having accidents in the house. Should I continue with the DE alone in hopes that he will not need antibiotics as long as he continues to make improvements? Obviously if he worsens, I would then start the short course. Or should I do as the vet suggested from the get-go? TIA!

waldor
17th January 2010, 01:35 AM
BE SURE it is food grade DE. I've read that anything else can have awful toxins added to it, like pesticides and such. I don't know if it is meant to help diarrhea.

Karlin
19th January 2010, 12:05 PM
I'd talk to your vet about the approach you are taking. You need to be working with someone on this -- chronic diarrhea can be very taxing and contribute to other, worse health problems as it leaves the animal weakened. It can also be a sign of a more serious underlying condition that, if not helped by antibiotics, will be clearer to your vet. I advise always having medical advice if you are tryIng to treat using a method you are not 100% familiar with and know is safe. If your own vet isn't familiar with this approach, then look for a vet (maybe a holistic specialist) who is and work with them? :thmbsup:

Marjorie
19th January 2010, 03:18 PM
Seems like a contradiction to be using antibiotics and probiotics for the same issue. Do you have access to a good holistic vet? Are there any new stressors in your dogs environment that started when the diarrhea started. Diarrhea is a symptom...it is important to find the cause and not just treat the symptom.

MishathePooh
19th January 2010, 04:54 PM
Actually a lot of vets recommend using probiotics and antibiotics concurrently - though taken at separate times during the day. My own doctor has suggested this for me as well. The probiotics theoretically replace lost gut flora during the antibiotic treatment and help reestablish healthy colonies (instead of the clostridium) in the gut.

We fostered a Samoyed about a year ago. At that time someone left horrid dog doo in our yard and didn't clean it up (live in an apartment complex). We did out best to get it, but it infected the sammy Jodie. Jodie was 15 and already in somewhat poor shape. Nothing cleared it up in a 2 month time period and she was euthanized due to this and many other quality of life factors. Misha contracted it shortly after Jodie and I contracted it shortly after Misha. Misha has had issues on and off all year, though antibiotics always clear it up temporarily (initially for longer stretches - months, but now only about a month). It took me a good three months and multiple probiotics to get rid of it (doctor suggested florastor as a side note 3 months into treatment and that made me human again).

Diatomaceous earth worked great for the diarrhea, but stool was still quite mucousy so we switched to the antibiotic short course. I'm hoping the combo of tylan/fortiflora work well. Thanks for all the info.

Marjorie
19th January 2010, 05:09 PM
I'm familure with probiotics and what they do, but antibiotics are what destroys the good flora in the gut and should be avoided if possible. Antibiotics are much too frequently administered without fully understanding the problem in my opinion. Our dogs have a tremendous ability to self heal if we can identify thetheir stressors and support their natural terraine.

waldor
20th January 2010, 05:16 AM
Probiotics replace the 'good flora' (or good bacteria) that the antibiotics kill while killing the bacteria. Antibiotics are not choosy, like chemotherapy. They'll kill whatever is in the intestinal tract.

I always take probiotics when on antibiotics, and I do the same when our dog is on Antibiotics. L0ike MishathePooh said a post or two earlier, probiotics must be taken a few hours apart from the antibiotics.. Otherwise, the antibiotics will immediately kill the good stuff you have just tried to replace, spend all its energy doing that, and not completely kill the bacteria.

MishathePooh
15th February 2010, 12:37 AM
We got rid of the clostridium and campy was present. He went on liquid neomycin 3x/day for 10 days. His stool has finally returned to normal color and he is doing great on the tylan/probiotic combo. He likes to scoot and also scavenge the floors, so I shampooed the carpets and scrubbed the floors by hand. His bottom was looking really red and irritated halfway through the neomycin, so the vet recommended using wipes on him after taking him out. He stopped the meds about a week ago and his bottom is fine now. I'm hoping the wiping will help prevent scooting bacteria from being ingested x_@ I know long term antibiotics aren't the best, but he is doing great now so will stick with this for the time being.

Karlin
15th February 2010, 12:46 AM
Glad you are seeing an improvement! :) This sounded like such a frustration, when you are trying to figure out what is going on.

Cathy Moon
16th February 2010, 02:30 AM
Just catching up with this thread after being away - I would definately use the Tylan for clostridium as it is very effective.

Our vet put Geordie and India on Tylan when they had clostridium years ago. He said an overgrowth of clostridium actually causes toxins to grow in their intestines, and can get entirely out of hand, where normal antibiotics don't work. We had to give them 1/16th teaspoon in their food daily, and it was a big bottle of yellow powder for a herd of farm animals! We used it for 6 to 8 weeks and they completely recovered.

Glad Misha is doing better!

ETA: If his poo is yellowish and the consistency of pudding, it could also be related to pancreatic enzyme insufficiency, which the vet can test for and treat.

MishathePooh
16th February 2010, 03:18 AM
His poo has been yellow and loose, but whenever he is on antibiotics, it returns to normal consistency. Now that the campy is gone too, it has returned to a normal brown color. I would assume as it has resolved, that it's not pancreatic insufficiency?

We have the same yellow Tylan powder. Lucky for me, we just got those little kitchen spoons that say "hint, pinch, dash, smidge" and the "pinch" spoon is 1/12 tsp which I am required to mix with his food. Can't imagine measuring it out otherwise!

Cathy Moon
16th February 2010, 03:30 AM
In my opinion, as long as it's back to normal and he feels good, looks good and is a good weight - that's all that matters! :)

I had a 1/8 teaspoon measure, so I used a knife to divide it in two on a saucer! Do you have the big bottle with all the instructions for calves, goats, pigs, etc.? ;)

Desrae
20th February 2010, 08:17 PM
I am sorry for butting in at such a late time, but our Belle had chronic diarrhea on and off for about 4 months until we got so fed up we asked the vet to take a stool sample. He did and did a few tests, it turned out she had something called Giardia, which comes from bird poo and standing water. He put her on amoxicillin and a 5 week course of worming liquid (YES, five weeks to kill those little things!). It cleared up after a few weeks and she's been great eversince. Also, we had to bleach the floors (we have tiles, wood) and disinfect her bedding/bowls to make sure there was no contamination from the parasite, it's a pretty strong critter. How's your little one now, is it completely gone?

lorebringer
20th February 2010, 08:36 PM
Hope your little dog is improving, poor pet.

I have a Cav who is prone to colitis, we had a 2 month long bout last year - every morning we would come down to a destroyed kitchen. Was tested for parasites or other bugs and blood were taken to make sure it was not liver/kidney/hormone issue, all of which came back negative. She was on and off of antibiotics, which made minimal difference. We switched her food to Royal Canin Sensitivity Control, dry, and it worked wonders. She is very sensitive to wheat and other grain, which we found our the hard way, but has no other intolerance. I always recommend the RC food for dogs with diarrhoea, I was shocked how well it worked and how fast. It's pricey but well worth it and they can be kept on it for life (unlike some other prescription foods), she is still on it and going strong. Every so often she may pick up something and have diarrhoea for a few days but nothing like what we went through initially.

Good luck and please keep us updated :)