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Notes from the Estimated Breeding Values Seminar to S. & W. Wales Cavalier Club

W

wotton12000

Active member
Seminar on Estimated Breeding Values (EBV) to the South and West Wales Cavalier Club 6 February at Usk, Monmouthshire

Thought I’d post a few notes about the EBV seminar as there was some new information since the last EBV seminar in 2009.

For a more detailed explanation of EBVs go to www.cavaliercampaign.com Estimated Breeding Values page

Tom Lewis from the Animal Health Trust gave the presentation (Sarah Blott was unable to attend)

  • Prevalence of SM in the current dataset they have is 45.8% (but this is not a random sample)
  • Between 1990 and 1992 only 6% of the Cavalier population were used as sires. In the same period 22% of females were used.
  • The effective population size (EPS) of Cavaliers is 80, not unlike many other dog breeds
  • EBVs of individual dogs will be publicly available on line when the system is up and running
  • The coefficients of inbreeding (COI), based on KC electronic records which start in the 1980s, will also be provided, so that you know how inbred the dog is. The lower this score is, the better.
  • EBVs will change (and become more accurate) as more health data is sent in, and the system will be regularly updated.
  • Labradors (hip dysplasia) will be the first breed to go on line. Although EBVs already exist for UK Cavaliers, there is insufficient data for them to be sufficiently robust. They need more MRI scan and heart testing results to be sent in.
  • Because SM is a late/variable age onset condition it would be ideal if each breeding dog was MRI scanned more than once.
  • Although not stated the implication was that the later you leave breeding (for MVD and CMSM) the better.
  • The official BVA/KC heart testing and CMSM schemes (soon to be introduced) will help a great deal and hopefully speed up the flow of health data to the AHT.
  • The danger of too rapid a selection away from one health problem and further reduction of the gene pool which could throw up another problem.

My personal comments are that the lack of sufficient health data is very depressing. Why don’t all Cavalier Club members put their efforts behind this scheme to save the breed? Why don’t the club committees urge their members to do so? Why can’t the Code of Best Practice become a rule for club members, with sanctions for those who don’t follow it?

I take the point about loss of genetic diversity with too stringent selection. However, instead of breeding from some SM affected (even if asymptomatic, or too young dogs) I feel the strategy should be to use the non show winning dogs (dogs which would normally be discarded by club breeders as not good enough to show) to widen the gene pool.

The official CMSM and Heart Testing BVA/KC schemes are going to be vital and they can’t come soon enough. If the KC refused to register litters from unscreened parents (that have reached the required minimum health standard) we would progress rapidly to creating a healthy breed. But of course the KC wont do that and the suffering will go on.

Next EBV update will be at the Cavalier Health Day on 20 November 2010 at the Royal Veterinary College.
 
Thank you for this information.

I have read that Tom Lewis has said that there are the results of 500 MRIs entered in the database. I sent approximately 100 certificates, with the owners' permission, when the scheme started, and there has been a lot of scanning days since.

There must be many breeders that have scanned and not yet sent in the results.
 
Thanks for that update. Did they give any kind of timeframe? How many more scans do they feel they need? How many scans make up the lab HD data set as opposed to MRI scans so far of cavaliers? Wonder if they need 50 more, 100 more, 500 more... and if quite a lot, would it make sense to open up the database to dogs outside the UK as they are all so closely related anyway. Or to dogs that go back within three generations to UK lines?

I found this very interesting and easy to understand note from a US breed clubmon genetic diversity, effective population sizes and co-efficents in dog breeds:

http://www.icelanddogs.com/Genetic-Diversity-and-inbreeding-co-efficients.html

The whole thing is extremely interesting but here is an excerpt on some key points -- note that they believe a healthy genetic population for their breed, the Icelandic Sheepdog, should be at least twice as large as the EPS in cavaliers at the moment (though perhaps if global populations were similarly analysed the international EPS would improve for cavaliers?):

ISIC is an international association
of ten countries where the ISD is known and loved. The organization
was started in Bjuv, Sweden in 1996. The Icelandic Kennel Club (HRFI)
spearheaded the effort as they saw that the ISD needed an increase in
genetic variation. To achieve that goal, HRFI believed that an
international perspective was necessary. Over the years, the national
breed clubs within ISIC have decided, step by step, about common
strategies to achieve this goal. In the ensuing years, this
international group dedicated to this common purpose, have worked to
develop a secure ISD database, sought knowledge and education by
studying emerging research and by consulting with and attending
seminars by international experts through the years. ISIC believes
that the cultural inheritance of the ISD is much more important and
long lasting than a single lifetime of a human being.

ISIC recommends that the percentage of inbreeding at the five
generation level should be kept to less than 5%, but 6% is still
acceptable. We are happy to report that a review of the litters listed
on our ISAA site during 2008 and 2009 shows that every litter followed
this guideline. Of course, inbreeding co-efficients are less important
on an individual level than on the population as a whole as keeping a
wide breeding base and increasing genetic variation preserves genetic
resources..

The ISIC goal is to have an effective population size of about 150
-200 dogs in the breeding pool as that size is large enough to stop
heavy losses of genetic variation within the breed according to
research experts. When all of the breeding dogs in the ISIC countries
are considered, we have reached that important goal. But we can do
more.

The ISIC breeding committee recommends combining dogs from unusual
family groups with dogs from more common groups. This is to ensure
preservation/spreading of unusual genes to a sufficient number of
dogs. The committee recommends breeding more selectively in the larger
family groups and less selectively in the smaller ones while still
choosing the best, healthy dogs.

When we talk about breeding, we tend to talk more about male dogs than
female dogs because it is easier for a male to have many litters than
for a female, so they generally have more influence on the population
as a whole. We are lucky here in the USA to have a wide variety of
dogs as our litter registrations from 2008 demonstrate. We have an
average inbreeding co-efficient of 2.09, a very respectable figure.
Click to expand...

The goals of the breeders within this breed in the US seem like they might be something worth aiming to duplicate? If you read the whole article: setting up a similar international union of breed club and breeders would seem a fantastic, visionary idea at this time, to pull together efforts to save the cavalier breed.

Also, this is a useful background article: http://www.netpets.com/dogs/healthspa/genforbreed.html
 
On this issue:

My personal comments are that the lack of sufficient health data is very depressing. Why don’t all Cavalier Club members put their efforts behind this scheme to save the breed? Why don’t the club committees urge their members to do so?
Click to expand...

My understanding from talking to some breeders is that many going for scans right now mistakenly assume all scan info is going to Sarah Blott automatically. There had been talk of this but this is not actually the case -- and thus there are almost certainly hundreds of scans that have not been added in to the total because some vets/neurologists are NOT sending them through. Even if someone has been told they will be submitted, it is worth checking on whether this was the case.

One really productive thing clubs could do would be to have every member who has scans, submit them and the registration number and pedigree (though the latter isn't necessarily needed if the registration number is given and verified on the scan) to Sarah Blott regardless of whether they believe they have been submitted -- or to email Sarah or Tom to check if their information has been submitted. I think a lot of scans have not gone in due to this lack of information.

It is also really important that scans go in for all results -- poorly scanned and clear dogs are the most valuable. Please note a poor scan helps narrow down the modes of inheritance and isn't an indication that the line will get a lower EBV. The more information, the better the tools for breeders so all scans are really critical.

Pet owner scans are also really, really important because they do tend to come from affected dogs -- most scans in the pool so far are going to be from breeder scans. If you are a pet owner, have scanned your cavalier and have a pedigree or Kc registration number, your scan is important! You can get info on where and what to send to Sarah Blott from Carol's website link noted in her original post, or PM me and I can get you the information or can take the information and send it on. I believe IKC registered dogs (Irish dogs) are also valuable but am checking on this. I have also put in a query on using US scans.
 
Notes from the Estimated Breeding Values Seminar to S.&.W.Wales Cavalier Club

OK Folks, now it's official,this from the CC List,that the Researchers have only 500 Cavalier MRI Scans ,and because of this , the Researchers are now concentrating on their Labrador EBV HD Research meantime.

That the Labrador HD EBV Research will now take Precedence over the Cavaliers.

Why have the SM Researchers only received back 500 MRI Cavalier Scans ?

Is it because there are a good number of Cavalier Breeders whose MRI Scans from their Cavaliers have shown a SM Problem?

Also it was mentioned in a UK CKCS CLUB News-Letter recently that that 1,000 Cheek Swabs had been sent out , at £5 a Swab .

There were up to that time ,only 250 returned

This is so Reminiscent of 20 years ago when a number of Cavalier Breeders were saying that the Cavalier Breed had no Heart Problem

Well all I can say about that denial , look at the MVD Problem in to-day's Cavaliers.!

That there could maybe be the chance of nearly all Cavaliers being Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes

This same attitude now seems to be happening to the Cavalier Breed and their SM Problem.

Is History Repeating it's-self?

You would have thought that the Cavalier Breeders would have remembered what has happened to the Breed because of the Denial 20 years ago by many Breeders about the Cavalier MVD Problem , and would be listening to the Cavalier Breeders and the Others who are trying to get this message across about the SM Disease and are hoping to save our Cavalier Breed

Unfortunately,it seems to me that there looks like a Cavalier Mafia,who are intent in stifling any discussions about the Cavalier Health Problems.


Bet(Hargreaves)
 
Thanks, Karlin, for your points, and especially the info on Effective Population Size and Coefficients of Inbreeding (COI). I would certainly like to see the Cavalier EPS greater than this and the fact that many other purebred dog populations have a similar EPS doesn't make it any better. I think the Imperial College Study recommended a minimum EPS of 100 - but in terms of health the higher the better.

I'll go back to Tom with your questions, and yes, it seems that there is a problem with some of the MRI centres not sending the data to the AHT.

I don't think Sarah Blott or Tom Lewis see it as their job to chivvy up breeders or MRI centres - they just deal with the data that is sent in. I think the clubs could do this, though.

Things will be much better when the official schemes are running as procedures will be standardised and all centres will be required to send in their data.
 
I'm one of those who haven't done a swab for the Animal Health Trust - but simply because although I was on the list after Sarah Blott's talk to the Midland Club a year ago, and reminded her when I sent the proceeds of last year's Fun Day, I've never received the kit. I did a swab about 5 years ago (I think for the genetic research project, taken at the Cavalier Club championship show) - but perhaps in fairness there were others who never actually received the kit from AHT - though I doubt there were 500 of us! I must try again - Aled of course has no pedigree, so nothing of his is any use.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

PS Might be worth asking Lesley Jupp (before she stands down as Chairman) to say something on behalf of the club (and put on the website) reminding people about the need for swabs, and how people can get the kits.
 
Last edited:
Hi kate

I have never had any of my girls MRI scanned even though I live just 15 mins from Chestergates and its not a question of money either, its that they are all pefectly healthy and I dont wish anything to disturb this happy little world we have and I have decided with a lot of things in life to not seek out any nasties which dont exist for me but to face problems as and if and when they develop ,this is my view, selfish it may be.
But if we can help with cheek swabs if thats any use to any body we would be more than willing to assist as they are all KC registered with 5 gen pedigrees and probably Daisy being a lloranka followed by Lily and Rosie then our Pops all have quite good lines in their pedigree so if you think the girls can help with cheek swabs or anything similar but none invasive or stressful for them pls advise .

With Kndest Wishes
brian
and
Poppy ,Daisy ,Rosie and Lily
 
Hi Brian

I've PM'd you (sounds like Margaret Thatcher and her handbag!).

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
Don't worry Kate,
Brian's well used to being on the receiving end of a few good handbaggings:lol:
Sins
 
Brian if you have cardiologist certs for any of the dogs that would be useful. The swabs are used along with test results so you'd need either cardio certs or MRIs. But this raises a good point -- the heart results from a cardiologist (NOT vet) are also needed and part of the EBVs.

The swabs are a separate issue from the test results though needed by Sarah Blott and Tom Lewis -- they are to be used if gEBVs are eventually done; they have nothing to do with anything currently happening, and do not need to be done if submitting MRI/MVD results.
 
I'm glad to see that the effective population size is 80. That is higher than I would have guessed. In my small amount of genetics training we were taught that the minimum (bare minimum, not recommended) in order to establish a breed of animals was 40, so seeing a number double that is actually quite encouraging. And that doesn't consider dogs in the Europe, US, Canada, Australia, NZ...

Purely out of curiosity, how informative would you consider these EBV seminars? Even though I don't breed I have a scientific (and personal) interest, do you think it would be worth traveling to attend one?
 
Estimated Breeding Values Seminar

How many Labrador MRI Scans will have been sent to the Research Team at the AHT compared to Cavalier MRI Scans?

How many Cavalier MRI Scans will be needed in order to encourage Drs Blott and Lewis, not to say that at the moment that they are giving Precedence to the Labrador Breed over the Cavalier Breed?

When you think about it ,what a depressing Statement this is to have been made.

Why was this all not thought about at the beginning of the EBV Scheme ,as Carol says why were all the CKCS Committees not getting involved to make sure the MRI Cavalier Scans were going to the SM Researchers.

I will be a bit Snide , were some on the CKCS Committees too busy making excuses for the Breeding Guidelines for SM not to be being put on the UK CKCS CLUB Rules.

Remember, us Cavalier Pet Folk had to become involved to get a Vote orginized about this !

Is it now the case that the Cavaliers will now be at the Bottom of the Pecking Order for the SM and MVD EBV Scheme ?

Bet(Hargreaves)
 
Estimated Breeding Values Seminar

Forgot to mention ,do some Cavalier Folk think that the Cavalier SM MRI Scan information going to the SM Researchers won't be Confidential.

Am I being Naive , is this the Nitty Gritty of why the Researchers have received so few Cavalier MRI Scans.

Will this ever change for some Cavalier Breeders until Health Testing for Cavalier Breeding Stock is made Mandatory?

Bet(Hargreaves)
 
Bet said:
How many Labrador MRI Scans will have been sent to the Research Team at the AHT compared to Cavalier MRI Scans?
Bet
Click to expand...

Labradors have different genetic problems, the one being addressed by the EBV is hip dysplasia. Hip scores are easier and cheaper to obtain for dogs, and are part of a more routine pre-breeding health screening. There were probably X-ray images and information about affected dogs going back much further than is available for cavalier MRIs.

You are always so eager to place the blame on others; what good do you think it does?
 
I've contacted the Webmaster (Dave Norris) for the Cavalier Club website asking him to pass on to the right person (the Club Health Rep) a suggestion that the need to send in MRI scans could be highlighted on the home page of the website for a few weeks. For people who are used to eye testing, where the results automatically go to the BVA and your KC registration is endorsed on the spot, they genuinely may not realise that the vet hospitals (due no doubt to patient confidentiality) can't/won't do this automatically.

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
Soushiruiuma said:
Labradors have different genetic problems, the one being addressed by the EBV is hip dysplasia. Hip scores are easier and cheaper to obtain for dogs, and are part of a more routine pre-breeding health screening. There were probably X-ray images and information about affected dogs going back much further than is available for cavalier MRIs.

You are always so eager to place the blame on others; what good do you think it does?
Click to expand...




It's not just me who has been depressed with the News that only 500 MRI Scans about Cavaliers have been received by the SM Researchers.

Even the Chairwoman of the S.& W.Wales CKCS CLUB Mentioned about this information after hearing it at the Seminar.

She even commented that at the rate the Cavalier SM Researchers are getting help ,she wonders if the EBV SM Scheme will ever get off the ground !

Please don't shoot the Messanger.

Bet( Hargreaves)
 
Hi Sins and Margaret

Handbagging did you say ,well I am ready it could be worseicon_whistling
 
Happily,a great many people are immediately on the case Bet,making every effort to rectify the situation.
Can anyone confirm yet if IKC reg cavaliers are of interest?There are quite a few on the site who have been scanned.If you have friends with scanned cavaliers Bet,maybe remind them to send the scans and pedigree certs to the AHT.
While we're all anxious to see the cavalier EBV scheme up and running, we wouldn't begrudge the labradors their scheme either.If that gets going,then the AHT will have a chance to iron out any data protection issues etc.. that could possibly smooth the path for cavaliers.
Sins
 
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