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Margaret C
13th February 2010, 07:12 PM
Bet Hargreaves has sent me her Kennel Club Breed Records that date back to 1920.

I feel very honoured that Bet has entrusted them to me for safekeeping. I have promised her I will take very good care of them, and I anticipate wasting many hours looking at the recorded history of our breed.

As a fund raising effort for the new initiative to scan middle-aged pet cavaliers ( see 'Just a thought' thread ), I will be willing to photocopy any pages from any year.
I'm not sure what I will charge as I have not really thought it out yet, probably £2 or so, depending how many pages need copying.

So, if you want to own a photocopy of the KC litter record for your cavalier (and any brothers & sisters) let me know.

Brian M
13th February 2010, 07:25 PM
Hello Margaret

Smashing idea ,can you pls put me down for my four whenever you ready

Thank You
brian

Karlin
14th February 2010, 03:43 PM
Margaret we can put this into the new Rupert's Fund subforum. Maybe we can post up a few sample scans so people can see what is available? It would be lovely for people to have the announcement of their litter!

Margaret C
14th February 2010, 04:41 PM
Margaret we can put this into the new Rupert's Fund subforum. Maybe we can post up a few sample scans so people can see what is available? It would be lovely for people to have the announcement of their litter!


Please move whatever, wherever.

I have added a scan of Monty's registration. He is MAREVE INDIANA, in the middle column and his breeders are shown as Mrs & Miss Carter & Mrs Walker. (The Mareve kennel name was shared with my daughter & my mother )

His parents are shown and his mother's date of birth.
1/1 shows he was the only puppy in his dam's first litter

At that time the KC divided the registrations up by colour, so he was in the blenheim section.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to cut down sizes or edit, so apologies if this is too big


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4012/4355796259_c0e177f1ef_b.jpg

By the way, Monty was Rupert's sire, and like Rupert a cavalier who suffered from SM, so it is very fitting that his should be the first registration shown here.

Cathy Moon
14th February 2010, 04:43 PM
What fantastic ideas! This will make an awesome fundraiser. :thmbsup: I'm interested in obtaining KC litter records for the nearest ancestors of my three. There must be many cavalier people here in the US who would love to do the same.

Margaret C
14th February 2010, 04:54 PM
What fantastic ideas! This will make an awesome fundraiser. :thmbsup: I'm interested in obtaining KC litter records for the nearest ancestors of my three. There must be many cavalier people here in the US who would love to do the same.

It will obviously have to be KC registered dogs. I will need as much information as possible to locate the litters, name of breeder, registered name, DOB, parents name, colour. Please PM or email me and I will see what I can do.

Cathy Moon
14th February 2010, 05:00 PM
It will obviously have to be KC registered dogs. I will need as much information as possible to locate the litters, name of breeder, registered name, DOB, parents name, colour. Please PM or email me and I will see what I can do.

Yes, all the information is easily found in their AKC pedigrees - well-known kennel names in England.

Bet
14th February 2010, 07:27 PM
Margaret, this is great.

Maybe for a wee bit of Historical Interest, could you maybe put on ANN'S SON 's Registration.

Bet.

Margaret C
14th February 2010, 11:11 PM
Margaret, this is great.

Maybe for a wee bit of Historical Interest, could you maybe put on ANN'S SON 's Registration.

Bet.

Great idea Bet.

In 1920 the registrations were shown in the Kennel Gazette and the breed was 'Toy Spaniel'
Then in August 1923 they start to be shown as 'King Charles Spaniel'

I will find the first registration showing 'Cavalier' tomorrow and put it up, but in the meantime here is the registration for Ann's Son.......

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2692/4357618184_a4a444787d_b.jpg

EddyAnne
15th February 2010, 12:18 AM
Years ago I was led to believe that the "short nosed dogs" were used as late as 1935 and "Springvale Pharoah" was mentioned. Later I heard that between 1945 and until 1980 there has been "interbreedings". A question, when was the Cavalier stud book closed?
.

Karlin
15th February 2010, 12:30 AM
Really interesting; thanks for putting that up. Did the current nomenclature for the colours of KCs change then after the CKCS was recognised?

EddyAnne
15th February 2010, 01:04 AM
Really interesting; thanks for putting that up. Did the current nomenclature for the colours of KCs change then after the CKCS was recognised?
The Kennel Club Gazette May 1946 mentions Cavaliers were being registered in 2 more coat colours of "BLACK-AND-WHITE" and "BROWN-AND-WHITE", see image below. Maybe Margaret or others can provide some more information.

http://members.wideband.net.au/safcav/1A/CavColoursMay1946.jpg
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Bet
15th February 2010, 10:40 AM
Could I mention

DAYWELL NELL ,you will see her name in the above Post.

Her SIre was ANN'S SON

Dam MISS ANN'S SON

ANN'S SON was MISS ANN'S SON , FATHER

Daywll Nell was the Result of Father to Daughter Mating

Then there is talso the mention of

Cannonhill Snip

He was the result of a Half Brother to Half Sister Mating

Back to His Grand- Parents

His Grand-father was Half -Brother and Half -Sister Mating
Grand- mother was Father to Daughter Mating








Cannonhill Snip was mated to his Litter Sister ,Ruby of Cannonhill

They produced a Litter of In-Bred Co-Efficient

44.6%

I contacted Dr M. Willis ,Geneticist , about this, he replied that this was the Highest In-Breeding % he had seen in a Dog Breed

Bet

EddyAnne
15th February 2010, 06:07 PM
Bet I noticed, and I also noticed way back that there were very difficult times for breeders due to food rationing. Each breeder had to decided on what few dogs they could possibly keep, simply the Ministry of Food did NOT provide food rationing for dogs, well maybe they only did to dogs actual used by the military and where their food probably came from food allocated to the military. Due to the times I think that high COI was a reality and even for other breeds during the world war and even for years afterwards. If you had dogs way back then what would you feed them and what would you do to keep the breed going?

Rationing continued after the end of the war. In fact, it became stricter after the war ended than during the hostilities. Bread, which was not rationed during the war, was rationed from 1946 to 1948; potato rationing began in 1947. At the time this was presented as being due to the necessity of feeding the population of European areas under British control, whose economies had been devastated by the fighting. This was partly the case, however with a large number of British men still mobilized in the armed forces, an austere economic climate, and a centrally-planned economy still being operated by the post-war Labour government, resources were not available to expand food production and importation. Frequent industrial action by certain groups of workers (most critically the dockworkers) also exacerbated the situation.

At the 1950 General Election the Conservatives campaigned on a manifesto of ending rationing as quickly as possible. During the following Labour-controlled parliament, petrol rationing ended on 26 July 1950. The Conservatives came to power in 1951. Sweet rationing ended in February 1953, and sugar rationing ended in September 1953, however the end of all food rationing did not come until 4 July 1954, with meat and bacon the last to go.
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Bet
15th February 2010, 07:20 PM
EddyAnne, The Big Problem for our Cavalier Breed at that time, was, it was such a Young Breed trying to get Established,otherDog Breeds had been around for probably 100 years, and the Dogs that were being In-Bred during the 2,nd World War would not be having such an influence on the Breeds ,as the Cavaliers which were just being Established in the Mid 1930's with a Lot of In-Breeding.

I just don't think that the Cavalier World of To-Day, realizes what the consequences of the In-Breeding of those Days ,has had on the Present Day Cavaliers.

Bet

EddyAnne
16th February 2010, 04:01 AM
Bet I think that within the time period there were a number of Young Breeds trying to get Established, maybe we can find out which breeds they were.

During the time period it appears that in Europe even Old Established Breeds experienced Genetic Bottlenecks, and this is interesting from an article I was just reading.

"Modern dog breeds have all been subjected to a founder effect, and many of them have had their gene pools further reduced by subsequent genetic bottlenecks. The best-documented case of a canine bottleneck was created by World War II, when hardships in Europe made it impossible to keep many dogs, especially giant ones. The populations of giant breeds in Europe were practically decimated after the war, and some breeds had to rely upon only a few survivors or imports from less affected areas?in effect, reducing the gene pool and creating a second, even more limited, foundation for the breed."
.

Bet
16th February 2010, 10:36 AM
EddyAnne , I have passed on all the Information I have mentioned here to the Researchers into the Cavalier Health Problems about how In-Bred the Cavalier Breed has been.

This sure though ,Links in with what Jemima Harrison said in her PDE TV Film, and Professor Bateson in his Report about In-Breeding.

I don't know about any other Breed ,only the In-Breeding in the Cavalier Breed, and with the Two Serious Problems ,SM and MVD that are now Afflicting Our Cavaliers, and the Researchers are saying that IN -Breeding is involved, I am believing what they are telling us.

There's no more that can be done, it's now up to the Researchers to make what they can about the Cavalier's In-Bred Information.

I know there was IN-Breeding during the War , what I cannot EXCUSE is the IN-Breeding and the use of Cavaliers with Heart Trouble in the 1950's- 1960's- 70's and the 80's,especially when Cavalier Breeders were told how serious the MVD Problem was in 1983.

There are some Cavalier Breeders proclaiming that they have done this , that, and the other ,and have been in Cavaliers for about 30 years .

All I can say to them is.What were you doing about it!!

Why have you let the Cavalier Breed get into such a mess with their MVD Problem ,that the MVD Researchers are now saying , that there could be Many,Many Cavalier Carriers around now with the MVD Gene/Genes.

Some Cavalier Breeders even seem to be disputing the Fact about the Cavaliers' Skulls could be having a Premature Closing and their Brains still growing.

That Cavalier Heads are too Small for their Brains.

Bet

EddyAnne
16th February 2010, 04:39 PM
Bet I think I read on the Cavalier Club website that some time ago the Kennel Club had given Sarah Blott access to the KC Database for the EBV Program purpose. From the database information it appears that the EBV Program can calculate the Inbreeding and Genetic Diversity of TODAY’S Cavaliers, and as you see in the image below the EBV Program appears to calculate “Projected inbreeding / loss of genetic diversity”. The historical information that you repetitively keep mentioning I think is interesting but I think that the focus should be on TODAY’S Cavaliers.

http://www.cavaliercampaign.com/images/mate-selection4.jpg
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Bet
16th February 2010, 06:35 PM
Ok , EddyAnne, and do you think that just maybe ,the EBV Information given to some Cavalier Breeders will be being used , if the Cavalier has no chance of winning in the Show Ring.!

Also is maybe the Lack of the Cavalier MRI Scans not being sent to the SM Cavalier Researchers ,could be because some Cavalier Breeders have found out their Cavalier Breeding Stock has SM ,and don't want this fact to be known about.

Bet.

EddyAnne
17th February 2010, 07:08 AM
Bet, if the EBV Information is not being used by some then maybe that may impact on other Cavaliers EBVs and the breed.

I think that maybe the EBV Program acts like an up-to-date health survey based on health test results and includes up-to-date inbreeding information. Maybe Sarah Blott and Tom Lewis might periodicly send Reports to the Cavalier Clubs on how the EBV Program is progressing and if there is health improvement or not.

Also the Kennel Club Charitable Trust is funding the EBV Program, maybe they might be interested in knowing how the Program is going as they may want to make decisions regarding providing future funding. I read somewhere that the Kennel Club is interested in later on expanding the EBV Program and to include other breeds regarding their health concerns, so the KC may want to know how the Program is progressing not only in relation to Cavaliers but also regarding the Labrador breed.

Also Sarah Blott and Tom Lewis in some years may Publish Scientific Papers regarding the EBV Program. I see via this link address that already there is a Publishing before the Program becomes available to breeders to use, so yes I think there may be future Publishings.
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1090023309004274

Due to things like the above I think it may be wise that Cavalier breeders use the Program, besides the Program can be of benefit to the Cavalier breed which I think many breeders may already know, particularly after all the Seminar talks from Sarah Blott and Tom Lewis at all those Cavalier Clubs.

Oh and in regards to Inbreeding I noticed that Tom Lewis mentioned this at the recent Cavalier Club EBV Seminar.
"EBVs of individual dogs will be publicly available on line when the system is up and running. The coefficients of inbreeding (COI), based on KC electronic records which start in the 1980s, will also be provided, so that you know how inbred the dog is. The lower this score is, the better."

Bet yes there is a Lack of the Cavalier MRI Scans, Tom Lewis mentioned having received only 500 for the EBV Program.

I remember back in 2008 Geoff Skerritt mentioned "I have viewed about 1000 scans of Cavaliers", and since then he would have more, plus other Neurologists may also have scans. So it looks the scans are out there but are not being sent in to the EBV Program, where obviously this needs to be looked into and somehow addressed for the breed's benefit.

Then I noticed Tom Lewis mentioned this at the Seminar which I think will be of help.
"The official BVA/KC heart testing and CMSM schemes (soon to be introduced) will help a great deal and hopefully speed up the flow of health data to the AHT."

A question, under this BVA/KC System will people be asked to sign Consent Forms to send the health information to the BVA/KC System BEFORE the Cavaliers are tested and the certificates issued.
I've noticed that some countries do operate the system "sign consent to send information BEFORE the testing or reading". Also in regards to the Labrador breed, does their BVA/KC System for Hips does it operate like this today?
.

Kate H
17th February 2010, 10:02 AM
I think one of the reasons that some people are dragging their feet about the EBV scheme is that they know that whether they like it or not their dogs will be on it, simply because they appear in the pedigrees of dogs whose scan results have been submitted. For example, Oliver's father (now dead) was never scanned but is known to have sired at least two offspring with SM from different bitches. So there is a high possibility that if he didn't have asymptomatic SM himself he was at least a carrier. Because I have sent in Oliver's scan results, his father will appear on the EBV database and be scored as having produced SM offspring. If he was still alive and someone wanted to use him at stud, his breeding values would reflect this.

Of course if some of the owners of top stud dogs who are so sure they don't have SM want to set the EBV record straight, all they have to do is get their dogs scanned and send in the clear result. If their dogs actually do have SM or are proven carriers, this will come up on the EBV anyway, through the pedigrees of their offspring whose positive scan results have been submitted. The bitch also contributes, of course, but rumours about your top dog are going to be flying around when the EBV goes public, and the simplest way of scotching the rumours is to get your dog scanned and the result sent to the AHT. If you still refuse to scan, the Cavalier rumour mill will simply get worse - what are you trying to hide?

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Bet
17th February 2010, 10:37 AM
Kate H

In my going back looking at the Old Files I have collected over the years about our Cavalier Breed ,I think this will answer your Post.

It was Published in Dog World ...10-5- 1996.

Written by Dr B. Cattanach ,the Geneticist, who had been involved in trying to help the UK CKCS CLUB with the Cavalier MVD Problem, but had to walk away because of the Lack of co-operation from a number of Cavalier Breeders.( Does this sound Familiar with the attitude of some Cavalier Breeders and the SM Poblem to-day)

Here is one Particular Quote I would like to pass on.

"The Cavalier Health Committee has Worked very hard , but to make further progress and Provide all the INFORMATION NEEDED,it will require SUBSTANTIALLY more SUPPORT than it has has been Given so far,from Individul Breeders .

I hope that this support will be Forthcoming"

Dr Cattanach's words ,not Mine , but sure could be Applied as to what is Happening by some Cavalier Breeders and their Attitude of the Cavalier SM Problem To-Day.

This Article was written bt Dr B.Cattanach, just on 14 YEARS AGO.

For the Cavalier Health Problems by Some Cavalier Breeders,this Saying Spings to Mind.

IT WAS EVER THUS!!!

Bet

Nicki
17th February 2010, 08:46 PM
Going back to the original topic, Margaret it is fascinating to see these pages - thank you to Bet for sending it on to you.

Especially interesting for me to see Rupert's Sire's original record :D

If you have a minute and could put up Rupert's page that would be great, willl send on some money

{breeder V Walker, Reddingvale Rupert, 11th June 1996, dam Tamyse Bryony at Deranmar}


This is the original Just a Thought thread

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?33739-Just-a-Thought&highlight=thought


and the subforum

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?33750-Welcome-to-the-Rupert-s-Fund-forum!

Margaret C
18th February 2010, 08:57 PM
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4043/4368729140_4e78cdce9c_b.jpg
Going back to the original topic, Margaret it is fascinating to see these pages - thank you to Bet for sending it on to you.

Especially interesting for me to see Rupert's Sire's original record :D

If you have a minute and could put up Rupert's page that would be great, willl send on some money

{breeder V Walker, Reddingvale Rupert, 11th June 1996, dam Tamyse Bryony at Deranmar}


This is the original Just a Thought thread

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?33739-Just-a-Thought&highlight=thought


and the subforum

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?33750-Welcome-to-the-Rupert-s-Fund-forum!


Here it is Nicki.

I remember going to see Rupert's litter when they were about 8 weeks. They were lovely puppies.

Nicki
18th February 2010, 09:48 PM
That's great Margaret thank you so much - it's wonderful to see the beginning :D


They all lived to a good age too - we know about 4 of them, one lived to 11, the others to 12 and 13, which was fantastic.

Margaret C
19th February 2010, 12:48 AM
For quite some years I collected postcards of toy spaniels.

I thought you may like to see these cards, all posted in 1905 when the longer nosed spaniel should not have existed.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4009/4368446399_cd82603db8_m.jpg http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4369192972_42c99f737e_m.jpg http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4068/4368448141_459b73133c_m.jpg

EddyAnne
19th February 2010, 03:24 AM
Margaret thanks for posting the postcards.

Well it does appear that Cavaliers did exist in 1905 and I wonder how many more.

It was 23 years later in 1928 that the American Roswell Eldridge approached the KC and offered the prize, this after he had been looking and couldn’t find any for his "foundation stock".
.

Bet
19th February 2010, 10:22 AM
Thanks Margaret ,for letting us see those Photos.

For others interested in the History of our Cavalier Breed,there's a Quote in the Cruft's Catalogue for 1926 .

Blenheim Spaniels of the Old Type ,as shown in Pictures of Charles 11's Time .

Long Face ,No Stop,Flat Skull,Not Inclined to be Domed with Spot in the Centre of Skull.

The First Prize of£25 inClass 947 and 948 are by Roswell Eldridge Esq., of New York ,USA .

Prizes go to the nearest to Type Required

Mr. R. Eldridge had been very disappointed to find only the Noseless Type of King Charles in England and kindly offered £25 for 3 years ,later extended to 5 years ,for the best of the Old Type .

In spite of this generous Prize only Two Entries were received in the First Year

The Winner of the First £25 was Ferdie of Monham ,born 19-11- 1923.

Sire Vital Spark

Dam Monham Reece.

For some-more of a wee bit of Interest,

Vital Spark was ANN'S SON's Grand-Father .

Bet

Kate H
19th February 2010, 11:25 AM
Fascinating photos, Margaret. The Dukes of Marlborough kept the longer nosed Blenheims going at Blenheim Palace - I suppose because they had bred them there for a long time and had their own lines - and regarded them as 'their' dogs. There's a photo of them that appears in most of the histories of the breed - a bit shorter nosed than those on the postcards but still definitely not Charlies. It's really not surprising that there were still longer nosed dogs around in 1905 - the fashion for short noses and domed heads only seems to have come in in the 1880s (when oriental dogs such as Pekes and Chins became fashionable - there are plenty of paintings of long noses up until then) and Charlie type wouldn't really have become unshakeably fixed in 25 years.

Serious Charlie breeders (who would be likely to show at Crufts) would have sold the throwback long nosed puppies as pets, so if Mr Eldridge was looking for long nosed spaniels from among the show people, it's hardly surprising he didn't find any.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

sins
19th February 2010, 11:31 AM
Very nice postcard photos.The little guy in the tin bath wouldn't look out of place on my couch today.
Sins

Margaret C
19th February 2010, 02:46 PM
I have a lot more old postcards, so I will start a new thread. I think I will call it memorabilia so we can include other cavalier related items.

I have the photo that Kate mentions, I will look it out.