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Registration Papers
- Thread starter mak
- Start date
Hmmm. Is the breeder a member of the Canadian CKCS Club? You could write to them. If the breeder advertised and promised papers for the puppy, I am sure you can also take it up with whatever consumer affairs dept you have? But the starting point of course would be to ring or write the breeder asking what the current situation is. Sometimes it can be at the club end, sometimes the breeder is not very good at following through on paperwork, sometimes there was false advertising involved, so reasons could really vary.
How long is 'very long'?
In the US, the cavalier broker/'breeder' Claire Simmons, who has been charged many times with cruelty, was successfully prosecuted by the US Dept of Justice for not supplying papers as advertised to puppy buyers and is thus now a convicted felon as a result, so this is actually a fairly serious issue (potential fraud).
How long is 'very long'?
In the US, the cavalier broker/'breeder' Claire Simmons, who has been charged many times with cruelty, was successfully prosecuted by the US Dept of Justice for not supplying papers as advertised to puppy buyers and is thus now a convicted felon as a result, so this is actually a fairly serious issue (potential fraud).
Brian M
Well-known member
Hi
My Lily who came to me last August, her breeder kept her papers until I provided a copy of the Vets invoice as proof she had been spayed ,this I did and of course since I have no intent to either show or breed I had no objection .She was spayed over Xmas so I duly sent copies and shortly after received her papers then changed her ownership on line with The K C paid my fee and received her new docs and 5 gen certificate shortly after ,so no problems either way .With the other three all papers were handed over with them but each breeder had the papers endorsed to prohibit K Club registration of puppies if bred and of course the breeders name ,but again I have no intention to so for all their better health they have all been spayed.
My Lily who came to me last August, her breeder kept her papers until I provided a copy of the Vets invoice as proof she had been spayed ,this I did and of course since I have no intent to either show or breed I had no objection .She was spayed over Xmas so I duly sent copies and shortly after received her papers then changed her ownership on line with The K C paid my fee and received her new docs and 5 gen certificate shortly after ,so no problems either way .With the other three all papers were handed over with them but each breeder had the papers endorsed to prohibit K Club registration of puppies if bred and of course the breeders name ,but again I have no intention to so for all their better health they have all been spayed.
mak
Member
Hi
We got our puppy in July of 2009 the breeder did tell us she was a little slow in getting her paperwork done, but it has been about 8 months. I did call her a few weeks ago to discuss with her about our puppies health as he has just been diagnosed with SM and Otitis. She told me the papers were in the mail, that was about two weeks ago, I want to give her a chance to get the papers to me I really don't want to have to make a formal complaint if she is just slow getting her paperwork done. The papers aren't going to make a difference on how we feel about Tanner but the point is we paid for a purebred cavalier and would like to have the papers.
What do you think?
We got our puppy in July of 2009 the breeder did tell us she was a little slow in getting her paperwork done, but it has been about 8 months. I did call her a few weeks ago to discuss with her about our puppies health as he has just been diagnosed with SM and Otitis. She told me the papers were in the mail, that was about two weeks ago, I want to give her a chance to get the papers to me I really don't want to have to make a formal complaint if she is just slow getting her paperwork done. The papers aren't going to make a difference on how we feel about Tanner but the point is we paid for a purebred cavalier and would like to have the papers.
What do you think?
Soushiruiuma
Well-known member
Which CKC are you dealing with? The Canadian Kennel Club is worth having the papers if only so that health information can be used for research, the Continental Kennel Club papers are of no value. There may be other CKCs that I'm not aware of.
Since your puppy seems to have gotten the short end of the stick healthwise I have to wonder about the quality of your pup's parents, do you know what health tests were carried out on the parents before breeding?
Since your puppy seems to have gotten the short end of the stick healthwise I have to wonder about the quality of your pup's parents, do you know what health tests were carried out on the parents before breeding?
mak
Member
Registration papers
I am dealing with the Canadian Kennel Club, I have no idea about the parents health I assumed because she was a long standing member of the club our puppy would be in good health, from the day we got him we had issues. She did tell me when the time came she would replace him that is the last thing I want I will probably never get another puppy. I am sure the club cares about the health of every puppy that is registered and want to make sure the breeding standards are being upheld.
I am dealing with the Canadian Kennel Club, I have no idea about the parents health I assumed because she was a long standing member of the club our puppy would be in good health, from the day we got him we had issues. She did tell me when the time came she would replace him that is the last thing I want I will probably never get another puppy. I am sure the club cares about the health of every puppy that is registered and want to make sure the breeding standards are being upheld.
Cathy Moon
Well-known member
I just want to step in to say that even the most health-conscious breeders, who ensure that health testing and protocols are followed, may have litters with puppies who develop otitis and SM. So that isn't really a fair statement to question the quality of this (or any) puppy's parentage just based on the occurrence SM or otitis (PSOM).
Cathy is right; I am unaware of any scanning breeder who hasn't found syrinxes in some of their dogs. Scanning and following the suggested breeding guidelines is no guarantee of litters of clear puppies, or of eliminating SM, but should help reduce incidence -- the researchers themselves state this as the goal. PSOM (otitis) also has a very high incidence in the breed -- the origin isn't really understood at all and there are no health tests that can be done to help prevent it.
So the concern is not so much that a breeder may have produced dogs with SM as I doubt there is a cavalier breeder who would find they haven't, if all their dogs and puppies were scanned. It is more whether breeders scan, and use this information to work to try to lower incidence; and support the research that will help give them the tools to do this.
Just for comparison: three of my four MRI scanned dogs have PSOM to some degree; two have syrinxes.
PSOM (otitis) also has a very high incidence in the breed -- the origin isn't really understood at all and there are no health tests that can be done to help prevent it. So the concern is not so much that a breeder may have produced dogs with SM as I doubt there is a cavalier breeder who would find they haven't, if all their dogs and puppies were scanned. It is more whether breeders scan, and use this information to work to try to lower incidence; and support the research that will help give them the tools to do this.
Just for comparison: three of my four MRI scanned dogs have PSOM to some degree; two have syrinxes.
Cathy Moon
Well-known member
mak, if you'd like a specialist to look at your puppy's otitis, we have one here in Ohio. Two of my cavaliers had the surgery, and there was a definite improvement afterwards.
Soushiruiuma
Well-known member
I think it's always fair to question the quality of the parents when a dog is diagnosed with SM this young. If I had said "since your dog has SM/otitis he is obviously from inferior breeding stock" THAT would be unfair. It's not that mating of top quality dogs who've been extensively health tested can't produce unhealthy pups, but the health testing should still be done. And buyers of puppies should be made aware by the breeder of what health testing has been done.
Cathy Moon
Well-known member
I still don't think that's fair; sometimes dogs are diagnosed young because their owners notice behavior that is potentially abnormal and get their dogs diagnosed earlier than other owners might.
Some cavalier owners, once their dog is diagnosed at a later age, think back and remember warning signs that could have made them suspicious.
Let's agree to disagree on this. It seems a bit rude to make statements about the quality of another dog's parents, don't you think?
You are both right on this one I think -- a bit of both replies.
That's very well said and yes, agree fully. Buyers also need to be aware of what to ask about, thus the post on looking for a breeder and what to ask in the Library section, and websites like www.cavaliercampaign.com and www.cavaliermatters.com.
Unfortunately early onset wouldn't necessarily indicate poor breeding practice and the problem is larger -- decades of mediocre to poor breeding practice by many breeders (some due to lack of knowledge about the science behind what might happen, but some just indifference to inward health and the long term implications of their breeding choices, if outwardly they saw nothing or avoided seeing anything, won in the show ring,and made money off puppies). Now we have a narrowing of gene pools that means -- very sadly, as the researchers have found -- that there doesn't seem to be a single line anywhere in the world that does not have the malformation, does not have the possibility of producing SM, and does not carry the genes for the disease.
I do think an owner of an affected dog should start from the point of view of discussing the issue with the breeder, finding out after the fact if it wasn't (ideally)done before, if the parents were MRId at all, and seeing how they can work with the breeder on the case of the individual puppy. Scans can go to research where they can help the future of the breed, which may prove some small comfort to the owner of an affected dog (one positive, powerful step they can take).
Breeders that refuse to scan, and knowingly use dogs that have been diagnosed with a significant degree of SM, who lie about knowing they have produced SM, and lie about knowing that some of their well known dogs are producing it -- in other words, those that focus on themselves, their show ribbons and their pockets, rather than being responsible to the breed, other breeders, and the families who buy their puppies -- they deserve excoriation and exposure. This is the most severe animal cruelty and deliberate fraud.
That's very well said and yes, agree fully. Buyers also need to be aware of what to ask about, thus the post on looking for a breeder and what to ask in the Library section
, and websites like www.cavaliercampaign.com and www.cavaliermatters.com. Unfortunately early onset wouldn't necessarily indicate poor breeding practice and the problem is larger -- decades of mediocre to poor breeding practice by many breeders (some due to lack of knowledge about the science behind what might happen, but some just indifference to inward health and the long term implications of their breeding choices, if outwardly they saw nothing or avoided seeing anything, won in the show ring,and made money off puppies). Now we have a narrowing of gene pools that means -- very sadly, as the researchers have found -- that there doesn't seem to be a single line anywhere in the world that does not have the malformation, does not have the possibility of producing SM, and does not carry the genes for the disease.
I do think an owner of an affected dog should start from the point of view of discussing the issue with the breeder, finding out after the fact if it wasn't (ideally)done before, if the parents were MRId at all, and seeing how they can work with the breeder on the case of the individual puppy. Scans can go to research where they can help the future of the breed, which may prove some small comfort to the owner of an affected dog (one positive, powerful step they can take).
Breeders that refuse to scan, and knowingly use dogs that have been diagnosed with a significant degree of SM, who lie about knowing they have produced SM, and lie about knowing that some of their well known dogs are producing it -- in other words, those that focus on themselves, their show ribbons and their pockets, rather than being responsible to the breed, other breeders, and the families who buy their puppies -- they deserve excoriation and exposure. This is the most severe animal cruelty and deliberate fraud.
Canadian Breeders and MRI scanning
I would also like to add, as I live on the prairies in Canada, that it has been an impossibility for me to find a breeder that MRI scans or works with MRI scanned stock within a three days drive. My choice was then not to get a Cavalier pup, but I know others that have made a different choice.
This is particularly worrying as I have noticed studs being used here that have already produced SM, or that are incredibly closely related (half sibling etc.) to Cavaliers that are SM affected.
I don't know where Mak posts from. In Eastern Canada there are breeders who have scanned and there is an available clinic that continues to offer lower cost scans for breeders. I also just recently learned there might be a breed in the Vancouver area scanning. If it is the breeder I was told, her waiting list is already years long. As I haven't followed breeders here in the last year or two, I hope more are now starting to scan.
Cavaliers are a fairly uncommon breed here, and until a few years ago would have been considered rare. So are Cavalier breeders who fully health screen.
Oreo
I would also like to add, as I live on the prairies in Canada, that it has been an impossibility for me to find a breeder that MRI scans or works with MRI scanned stock within a three days drive. My choice was then not to get a Cavalier pup, but I know others that have made a different choice.
This is particularly worrying as I have noticed studs being used here that have already produced SM, or that are incredibly closely related (half sibling etc.) to Cavaliers that are SM affected.
I don't know where Mak posts from. In Eastern Canada there are breeders who have scanned and there is an available clinic that continues to offer lower cost scans for breeders. I also just recently learned there might be a breed in the Vancouver area scanning. If it is the breeder I was told, her waiting list is already years long. As I haven't followed breeders here in the last year or two, I hope more are now starting to scan.
Cavaliers are a fairly uncommon breed here, and until a few years ago would have been considered rare. So are Cavalier breeders who fully health screen.
Oreo
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mak
Member
Suregery for Tanner
Hi
Thanks I have a good surgeon in Vancouver we will be using.
Mak
Hi
Thanks I have a good surgeon in Vancouver we will be using.
Mak