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View Full Version : So just how common is SM??



Erin2854
6th March 2010, 10:13 PM
I was talking to my puppy's breeder about it, and she said she's never seen a case of SM personally and none of her dogs have had it. She said she's heard alot about it, some things true, some not. She's very involved in the show ring and has been breeding champion cavalier's for years. Since she has never had or seen a case of it, is it really that common? Or does there seem to be more cases in the UK than the US (i'm in the US). Just curious about this...thanks!

Cathy Moon
6th March 2010, 11:27 PM
Here is the frequently asked questions page from Clare Rusbridge's website. Scroll down to where the topic is discussed:
http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/part2.htm#16

It looks like more funding is needed so a random sampling of 200 middle aged cavaliers can be studied.

Margaret C
7th March 2010, 01:43 AM
I was talking to my puppy's breeder about it, and she said she's never seen a case of SM personally and none of her dogs have had it. She said she's heard alot about it, some things true, some not. She's very involved in the show ring and has been breeding champion cavalier's for years. Since she has never had or seen a case of it, is it really that common? Or does there seem to be more cases in the UK than the US (i'm in the US). Just curious about this...thanks!

It all comes down to recognising and admitting there is a problem, something that breeders traditionally resist as being some sort of disloyalty to the breed.

If your USA breeder has never seen SM personally, then she is either not that involved in the show ring, or she is in denial.
It is relatively easy to explain away the varied symptoms of SM, UK cavalier breeders did it for years, King Charles ( English Toy Spaniels in the US) breeders in this country still do.

The words " none of my dogs have had it" is classic breeder denial, as it is well known that cavaliers can have SM, but not show symptoms for years.
Breeders that have any interest or knowledge of SM know that only a MRI scan will show whether a dog has SM or not.

UK breeders denied there was a problem with SM until the BBC film publicised the problem and they came under pressure to check their breeding stock.
It has now been found that over 50% of cavaliers screened through the low cost scanning schemes have SM, although they may show no obvious symptoms. They can of course pass the problem on to their puppies, and SM is a problem that is thought to become more severe with each new generation.

UK dogs are very successful in America, many of your champions and your top stud dogs are from UK or have UK dogs behind them.
Many of those cavaliers will have SM, the genes do not disappear just because the dog is exported from this country.

Breeders here in the UK are selling unscanned ( or even scanned failures ) to USA buyers and SM is being ignored, or hidden, by breeders in America who feel they cannot afford the very expensive MRIs, but somehow believe they still have the right to continue to breed even though they may be producing cavaliers that will have a pain filled life.

ByFloSin
7th March 2010, 09:28 AM
I was talking to my puppy's breeder about it, and she said she's never seen a case of SM personally and none of her dogs have had it. She said she's heard alot about it, some things true, some not. She's very involved in the show ring and has been breeding champion cavalier's for years. Since she has never had or seen a case of it, is it really that common? Or does there seem to be more cases in the UK than the US (i'm in the US). Just curious about this...thanks!

Did you ask your breeder whether she has had all her dogs scanned and whether her show friends have scanned their dogs? I do not think that valid opinions count without producing the evidence. I have a boy scanned positive for SM and CM without symptoms, who is still being placed in veteran classes.

Bet
7th March 2010, 11:14 AM
Can I reply to Margaret's Post.As some of you might know I have Battled for over 20 years about the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed,this Problem is now at the Stage that the Researchers, are now Commenting that there could be many Cavalier Carriers around to-day with the MVD Gene/Genes.

The Cavalier Breeders were warned in 1983 ,that was 27 years ago, by Dr P .Darke, the UK CKCS CLUB Cardiologist ,about the Seriousness of this Problem Afflicting the Cavalier Breed.

You might be asking what has this to do with the SM Problem in the Cavalier Breed .

It is exactly the same, the Cavalier Breeders are being told by the Researchers about this Insidious Condition in Cavaliers, but a number are still in Denial about it. .

It's no use some Cavalier Breeders hiding behind the Excuse ,SM is not in my Cavaliers, how does the Cavalier Breeder that Erin has mentioned ,know that, has the Cavalier Breeder MRI Scanned her Breeding Stock.

This is just what was being said all those years ago about the Cavalier MVD Problem, and look at the mess the Breed is in to-day because of their Heart Problem, 50%,WILL have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of Age.

I was shocked to read in Margaret's Post that 50% of Cavaliers MRI Screened through the Low Cost Scanning Schemes have SM.

This is the Figure that is so very Important, if the SM Problem is not tackled to-day ,then the Cavalier Breed could probably go the same was as it has with the MVD ,and that in a few years time there will be many,many Cavalier Carriers of the SM Gene/Genes.

What maybe I think help in this ,is the Puppy Contract that I believe will be shortly be being announced.

If a Dog Buyer has a Dog which developes a Hereditary Disease,known to the Breed, i.e. SM or MVD in Cavaliers, and the Breeder has not Health Tested for those Diseases that are known about in the Breed, then the Buyer can take that Breeder to Court.

There is nothing I think ,better than that ,that will Focus the Minds of Some Cavalier Breeders who are Dragging their Feet about Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock.!!!!

Bet

Desrae
7th March 2010, 12:30 PM
Uh oh :shifty:

Cathy Moon
7th March 2010, 02:34 PM
Did you ask your breeder whether she has had all her dogs scanned and whether her show friends have scanned their dogs? I do not think that valid opinions count without producing the evidence.

:thmbsup: That's the right question to ask a cavalier breeder in this situation.

Cathy Moon
7th March 2010, 02:42 PM
What maybe I think help in this ,is the Puppy Contract that I believe will be shortly be being announced.

If a Dog Buyer has a Dog which developes a Hereditary Disease,known to the Breed, i.e. SM or MVD in Cavaliers, and the Breeder has not Health Tested for those Diseases that are known about in the Breed, then the Buyer can take that Breeder to Court.

Bet, I hadn't heard about this yet. Is the puppy contract a KC initiative?

Bet
7th March 2010, 07:09 PM
Jemima Harrison had put this on the Dog World Forum about a couple of week's ago.

The New Puppy Sales Contract(for all Dogs not just KC ones)being worked on by various parties ,it will provide Legal Recourse should a Puppy develope a Condition that is recognized in the Breed that could have been Prevented through an Available Test(DNA/Clinical )-unless ,Jemima Harrison further says ,she believes ,it is spelled out that the Breeder has not done the Test and the Buyer has Accepted the Puppy on this Basis.

Looks like exciting times ahead .

Bet

EddyAnne
9th March 2010, 04:16 PM
The New Puppy Sales Contract(for all Dogs not just KC ones)being worked on by various parties

The following is part of the recommendations from the APGAW Inquiry Report, and they mentioned an excellent means to tackle the issues raised head on, and should be investigated by DEFRA and in the meantime the KC should work with the BVA, the RSPCA and others to develop this further. I remember that Bateson also mentioned something in his Report. Anyway here is the key part from the APGAW Inquiry Report.

6.2.2 It has been suggested by a number of leading welfare organisations that a puppy sale contract should be required which includes this information enabling buyers to make an informed decision and protecting the seller by disclosing all information at the point of sale. The principle idea for this contract would be simply for the breeder to assure the prospective buyer that they have taken all necessary 'due care' that was available to them at the time to minimise the risk of passing on inherited disease to the puppy they are selling. The Inquiry sees it as an extended version of the vaccination card which could be referred to as a health certificate. There could be a requirement for the seller to supply to the buyer, in good time before the contract is concluded, the health certificate for the dog setting out details of screening tests for genetic and other disorders that have been carried out on the puppy and on its parents. The certificate should be certified by the vet and/or establishment which has carried out the tests.
.

Karlin
11th March 2010, 08:02 PM
Just wanted to add that the figures for how many scanned cavaliers have SM is absolutely consistent in the US and Canada to what has been seen in the UK. Over 90% have the skull abnormality that often leads to SM and can cause symptoms in its own right, and at least circa 40% actually had SM ( a syrinx). This for example was the result of the U of North Carolina study funded by the Ackcsc (on of the two main ckcs clubs in the US).

A breeder claiming they do not know of any cases and have no SM in their lines 1) must be avoiding listening or talking to many club breeders as every single breeder who has scanned groups of their dogs anywhere has reported having affected dogs, usually initiallyto their shock - this includes many well known show breeders in the US so a breeder would really have to be avoiding general health news not to have heard this 2) must not be scanning themselves.

I would be a bit worried by any breeder still so unsure as to whether this is a huge breed issue and wonder what she thinks has been said that is untrue... Btw If you follow discussions from uk breeders on some email lists, you will see that even nearly all the most dubious initially now accept the rates at which the breed is affected. The only reason there may seem to be 'more' SM in the UK is that many more breeders there are scanning due to low cost programme and the discussion has been far more public. The US breeders have a long distance to travel- thie websites only recently got reasonably accurate info on SM for example and if the clubs do not educate their own members it makes it a lot easier to remain ignorant- in some cases, willfully so.