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Kate H
13th March 2010, 11:17 PM
Spent a bit of time at Crufts this morning handing out leaflets encouraging people to send their scans to Sarah Blott. The person organising the leaflets told me that she is importing a Cavalier from the Netherlands (a dog I think) who not only does not have SM but also doesn't have CM, and his parents and grandparents are also CM/SM free. I know the Netherlands KC started taking SM seriously much earlier than this country, and have been much tougher on not allowing breeding from affected dogs; as in many continental countries, everybody has to have their dogs checked by the KC before they can breed a litter at all. Just goes to show what can be done...

Also talked to the AHT about the proposed KC/BVA scanning scheme. Everyone's getting together in May to decide on a definitive grading system, and there will be a seminar at Stoneleigh, probably in October, to introduce the scheme. And more info and booking details for the Cavalier Club/Royal Vet College conference on SM and MVD in November should be available shortly.

Chatted to one lady by the Cavalier ring who informed me that Oliver had SM because I fed him on dry food - all grain used in dog food contains fungus which can cause neurological damage. I managed to be polite...
(though it's not impossible, I suppose, that something like that could have caused the original genetic damage which led to CM - but wonder how she explains CM/SM in humans?)

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Bet
14th March 2010, 11:14 AM
Kate,

Am I the only one thinking what depressing News you have just passed on.

Why can't the KC here stop Breeders from Breeding from affected Dogs here in Britain,and to have their Breeding Stock ckecked before they can Breed from them.

I don't know if any of you heard Caroline Kisko on the TV last night speaking on the Crufts Program about Genetic Problems in Dogs, what a piece of PR she did, no mention about Health Testing Breeding Stock, just the usual Lip Service .

The Puppy Contracts can't come soon enough ,thats the only thing I think that will help our Cavaliers. There were meetings about 2 years ago about grading systems, now it will be being talked about in maybe October , BIG DEAL.!!!And then what .More wasted time.

What will come out of the Conference to be held in November, I would think ,not a lot , unless the KC introduces Mandatory Health Tests, and Pigs will Fly Sooner than that happening.

Just to say ,what really made owning a Dog all about ,was for me , the Love shown by the Dogs and their Owners in the Crufts selection about the Folk whose Dogs had made such a difference in their Lives, not the Folk Poncing about in the Show Ring.

Bet

Kate H
14th March 2010, 02:24 PM
According to the AHT yesterday, the KC will almost certainly make using the KC/BVA health schemes for SM/MVD mandatory for their Accredited Breeeders scheme, which is being encouraged by the government as a way forward and the KC are being pressured to give the AB scheme some teeth, with regular inspections and refusal of registrations for not following the rules. So perhaps things are slowly beginning to move in the right direction. And a CM/SM free stud dog (with perhaps more imports to follow - someone else yesterday was talking about importing from Poland, another FCI country) could make a real difference - so don't get too depressed, Bet!!

As someone said to me at Crufts, the island the non-scanners are standing on is getting smaller and smaller, and at least one more of the big kennels, who were conspicuous by their absence, has recently started scanning. So keep on encouraging people to ask to see the certificates when they want a puppy or a stud dog - and to walk away if they're not available.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Cathy Moon
14th March 2010, 04:40 PM
I hope things will continue to move in the right direction. :xfngr:

While I'm still hoping for things to improve, I still have to ask this question:

Aren't some well-known UK show dogs being used at stud in other parts of Europe, including the Netherlands? I had recently researched this a little on the Internet and wonder how cavalier health will be impacted. This is happening in North America as well.

Also, I wonder how many times a cavalier needs to be MRI scanned in its lifetime to be declared CM/SM free.

Kate H
14th March 2010, 06:16 PM
I would have thought the presence or absence of CM could be diagnosed early on, as this is a matter of the growth of the bone in the skull at an early age (cf. the foetal tissue project). Given the presence of CM, then SM can develop at any age, but generally SM doesn't appear without the pre-existing presence of CM. There is always the problem that many overseas bloodlines stem from UK dogs, but some of these lines are quite old (some South African Cavaliers - including my first one - go back to 1950s imports, before CM was so prevalent, for example). I remember reading about the Netherlands programme in one of the SM reports (on the Cavalier club website??) - do we have a forum member in the Netherlands who could give us more information? Clare Rusbridge did her initial research at Utrecht University, so you would expect the Netherlands to have got going first!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Margaret C
14th March 2010, 07:03 PM
I would have thought the presence or absence of CM could be diagnosed early on, as this is a matter of the growth of the bone in the skull at an early age (cf. the foetal tissue project). Given the presence of CM, then SM can develop at any age, but generally SM doesn't appear without the pre-existing presence of CM.

It is believed that a dog free of syrinx at four years may not be free at eight years. Multiple dogs would need to be scanned at intervals throughout their lifetime to establish if there was a time when they could be declared SM free.



There is always the problem that many overseas bloodlines stem from UK dogs, but some of these lines are quite old (some South African Cavaliers - including my first one - go back to 1950s imports, before CM was so prevalent, for example)

This may explain why some overseas lines seem to have good scan results.

There are, however,also some countries that were very badly hit by SM, even before the problem became so widespread in the UK, because of linebreeding to particular UK dogs that they imported decades ago.

The problem continues with the importation of unscanned cavaliers into some countries that do not have a culture of scanning, perhaps because of the cost. There will be rising numbers of SM affected cavaliers in these countries.



I remember reading about the Netherlands programme in one of the SM reports (on the Cavalier club website??)

A small number of Netherland breeders got together and bred for health, including MRI'ing and grading their breeding cavaliers. There was a report, Karlin may know how to access it easily, but otherwise there was a paper at the International Conference 2006. Go to the Cavalier Club website, into Health, into Syringomyelia and then into the report on the conference

Bet
14th March 2010, 07:44 PM
Before I get settled down to watch Crufts to-night ,and the follow up Program, Good Dod -Bad Dog after the Best in Show judging is finished,9 pm-10 pm, Which hopefully Caroline Kisko won't have things all her own way!

Could I just say Kate, I surely hope that you are right, about the Mandatory Health Testing for SM and MVD in Cavaliers for Accredited Breeders.

When that was said yesterday ,the KC can't back down now,

The next thing will be to get more Cavalier Breeders Accredited Breeders.

If though, Cavalier Breeders are still Exporting Either Unscanned or Cavaliers who have SM or MVD,will this not have to be being cracked down on.

Why is it not possible to have a List of Cavalier Breeders who are doing those Health Tests, also those Cavalier Breeders who are following the UK CKCS CLUB's Breeding Guidelines.

If the Cavalier Breeders were doing this, then there would be no need for Prospective Cavalier Buyers to ask to see a Health Certificate about whether Cavalier Breeders are Health Testing their Breeding Stock, those Cavalier Buyers would know where to go for a Cavalier .

Bet

Cathy Moon
14th March 2010, 07:58 PM
If though, Cavalier Breeders are still Exporting Either Unscanned or Cavaliers who have SM or MVD,will this not have to be being cracked down on.

Right, this is worrying; some of them become popular studs.

Tania
14th March 2010, 08:03 PM
I was at Crufts yesterday, I went to the Health Zone and talked to a chap representing the KC.
I have a leaflet "BVA/KC SM/CM Scheme, I will try and get an electronic copy tomorrow. The KC
told me his gut feeling is SM/CM is not as bad as everyone is making it out to be, he agreed there is
a problem but he feels it affects only 3% of dogs based on a recent results from some tests. From
what I understood the KC are going to put more responsibility onto the Breed Clubs.
He also claimed less than 1% of dogs KC registered are from "puppy farms"!

Tania
14th March 2010, 08:08 PM
ps. I did go onto Crufts FM at 1pm. I talked about the new website and SM! (They didn't kick me off)

sins
14th March 2010, 08:29 PM
The KC
told me his gut feeling is SM/CM is not as bad as everyone is making it out to be

If his gut is feeling that off,then he'd better get some Actimel or a stronger probiotic to sort it out.:confused:

Sins

Margaret C
15th March 2010, 12:33 AM
I was at Crufts yesterday, I went to the Health Zone and talked to a chap representing the KC.
I have a leaflet "BVA/KC SM/CM Scheme, I will try and get an electronic copy tomorrow. The KC
told me his gut feeling is SM/CM is not as bad as everyone is making it out to be, he agreed there is
a problem but he feels it affects only 3% of dogs based on a recent results from some tests. From
what I understood the KC are going to put more responsibility onto the Breed Clubs.
He also claimed less than 1% of dogs KC registered are from "puppy farms"!

Tania,

Do you know who this man was? Did you get his name? Both claims are unbelievabe, and I would like to make sure they are challenged.

Kate H
15th March 2010, 10:35 AM
I wonder if Tania went too early? Several people complained that in the first half of the morning there were only KC information staff there who didn't know very much. Later in the morning, Simon Swift was there and a clinician from the AHT - though it would have been good to have someone directly involved with the EBV project, or SM research, present (but I left at 2 pm so don't know if others were present later on in the day).

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Tania
15th March 2010, 05:24 PM
Tania,

Do you know who this man was? Did you get his name? Both claims are unbelievabe, and I would like to make sure they are challenged.

Jeff Sampson was the chaps name. I asked him the same question several times, he was adamant the
RSPCA were to blame.

Tania
15th March 2010, 05:30 PM
and he repeated the 3% figure several times.

Tania
15th March 2010, 05:37 PM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5864228.ece

Tania
15th March 2010, 06:17 PM
Sorry disregard the above thread copied the wrong one!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7061828.ece

Kate H
15th March 2010, 06:34 PM
If it was Jeff Sampson, that's incredible - he's the KC's top genetics expert!! Anyway, as most Cavaliers have never been scanned, any pronouncement on the incidence of SM can only be projections based on available scientific evidence (as the researchers are careful to make clear). So no one can say definitely that it is 1% - or any other % for that matter.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Bet
15th March 2010, 07:04 PM
I know that there was a BVA/KC Health Survey done about 4 years ago,and the SM Figures for Cavaliers was if I remember ,2.something and that included Neurological Problems.

Here is the Big But,there were about 300 Forms returned, and I think it would be mainly UK Cavalier Club Members who took part in the Survey.

Would any of you on the List have taken part in the Survey.

The other thing is Mr Skerritt has said at a SM Seminar I was at , that he had about 1.000 Cavaliers ' reports with SM.

So Tania I guess the SM Cavalier Figure you were given would probably be from that Survey.

Nothing I would guess will budge the KC from that figure.!!!

Bet

Tania
15th March 2010, 07:49 PM
I know that there was a BVA/KC Health Survey done about 4 years ago,and the SM Figures for Cavaliers was if I remember ,2.something and that included Neurological Problems.

Here is the Big But,there were about 300 Forms returned, and I think it would be mainly UK Cavalier Club Members who took part in the Survey.

Would any of you on the List have taken part in the Survey.

The other thing is Mr Skerritt has said at a SM Seminar I was at , that he had about 1.000 Cavaliers ' reports with SM.

So Tania I guess the SM Cavalier Figure you were given would probably be from that Survey.

Nothing I would guess will budge the KC from that figure.!!!

Bet


Yes Bet you are right it was this survey he referred to. I am sorry I did not record the conversation,
it was busy and bitty he was half talking to me and other people, I don't think they had enough
people on the stand representing the KC only girls handing out leaflets. He mentioned the majority
of Cavaliers are not bred from KC or Breed Club breeders which we know they have said before. I
wasn't a very good scout, in future I will record conversations. I am positive about the percentages
because I wrote them down and because of all the interruptions I was able to ask him the same
question more than once! Having looked at my notes a lot of what he told me is on his website so it is not worth repeating.

Kate H
15th March 2010, 10:57 PM
The KC health survey a few years ago was not a great success - it was aimed particularly at breeders, and the return rate for almost all breeds was dismal. Also, as far as Cavaliers were concerned, it was before any of the low cost scan schemes got started, so scan results from Cavaliers were still comparatively few. But if the KC were supposed to be focusing on SM in the Health Zone at Crufts, they should have done their homework and at least looked at Clare Rusbridge's website. There were better-informed people around later in the day.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Tania
15th March 2010, 11:58 PM
This chap obviously knew I was new to this and took advantage and fobbed me off, I am sorry the information I bought back was virtually rubbish but I believe from what he said, the Kennel Club will continue to gloss over
the problems and not deal with them. He is putting more responsibility on the breed clubs and blaming the RSPCA. I have talked tonight to the lady who is campaigning for Wire
Haired Pointers, her website is www.ourdogalfie.com (http://www.ourdogalfie.com) Phillipa Robinson talked to the KC came to the same conclusion as myself but is able to perhaps relay the information better than I can. I have asked her to
e mail her understanding! Phillipa also works with a lady who is campaigning for Pugs, what she has suggested that we all find two other campaigners each and we all join together as one which will make our voice louder!

Karlin
16th March 2010, 02:02 AM
Jeff Sampson has in the past complained because the research samples are not proper clinical samples, yet so far every research group worldwide gets about the same number of affected cavaliers -- at least about 40% having syrinxes, and this is also supported by the reports from club breeders who have reported back that the neurologists scanning the CLUB dogs on the low cost schemes are saying about 50% have syrinxes. This was posted publicly by people such as the UK club secretary, who has scanned many dogs, and confirmed by others. Yet Jeff Sampson thinks these are less likely to be accurate compared to a far more skewed sample of self-reporting breeders almost none of whom had scanned their dogs at the time of the breed survey? Boy, that is cloud cuckoo land stuff, wishful thinking and shocking that it is coming from the KC's geneticist. I was there at an SM conference when this man insisted a proper clinical sample was needed yet he himself is choosing to cite about as unclinical a sample as one can get -- of mostly breeders reporting on whether they *think* they might have an SM dog? Good grief. :sl*p:

I don't think there's a club breeder in the UK who seriously thinks only 3% of the breed has syrinxes. Even amongst the most skeptical.

And BTW researchers have been turned down several times in their attempts to get a clinical sample funded. Maybe Jeff Samspon should be campaigning for this? On the other hand -- how convenient to keep demanding a clinical sample, while also ensuring one is never created. No better way to ensure waffly arguments can continue to be put forward.

Bet
16th March 2010, 11:09 AM
I sure can confirm about Karlin has Posted,but about another Gentleman at the KC, Bill Lambert ,the Health and Accredited Breeders Organiser, I was arguing with him about a year ago, about the SM Cavalier Figures on the Phone, and this is exactly what he told me ,the KC are using the BVA/KC Cavalier Health SM Survey Figures.

This Survey ,I think was done in 2004.

Bet

sins
16th March 2010, 01:27 PM
I find that very annoying ladies.Why put out of date and misleading information in the public domain?
When I was looking at cavaliers three and a half years ago I looked up as much info as I could on health issues and the predominantly quoted rate for SM was 1% which I figured to be a very acceptable risk.
and yes I did know what what Syringomyelia was before I ever had a cavalier...
Had I known the true picture I would have crossed the cavalier off the list of potential dogs almost immediately.
Sad but true..
Sins

Bet
16th March 2010, 03:36 PM
I don't know whether this will be of any interest in the Present discussion.

Here it is.
In 2004, that was 6 YEARS ago ,there were 1150 forms sent out to Cavalier Owners

306 were returned

The Break-down for SM was

19 were returned as Neurologic Problems ,including SM

That was given in the Survey as 2.8

It was also mentioned that the Survey Figures should be Interpeted with Caution

That I believe will be the Survey that has been referred to.

This was published by the KC,as the BVA/KC Health Survey.

I would think ,if there are now Results coming through from the MRI Scans, they will be giving a more up to date picture about the SM Problem in Cavaliers.

Any-way what is shown ,is that there is a SM Problem in our Cavalier Breed,and should not be being left like the MVD Problem was, which has Decimated Cavaliers.

Bet

Bet
17th March 2010, 10:24 AM
Hope it's O K passing on this Information.

It's to do with MRI Scan Results of Cavaliers in Australia.

There had been 60 Dogs MRI Scanned ,not cases referred to the Neurologist ,just owners wanting their Dogs Scanned

50 % had a Syrinx ,a Syrinx denotes SM.

I would think just about all Cavaliers in Australia will have originated from Britain in the early days.

These Dogs had not been showing any SM Symptoms.

I would think ,that this is for everybody in the Cavalier World alarming news.

Is it possible that if a number of Cavaliers are MRI Scanned at random, who have shown no signs of SM , 50% of them can have this Insidious
Disease?

Bet

Karlin
17th March 2010, 11:02 AM
I'd assume that is primarily a group of breeder dogs being scanned for breeding purposes? That 50%-ish figure is remarkably consistent across the world for the breed.

Bet
17th March 2010, 12:33 PM
Yes Karlin,

I would think that would be why they were being MRI Scanned.

Will this not be what could be called a Random Sample. ?

It surely must give a idea as to the SM Cavalier Figures.

I would think the SM Figures in Cavaliers that have come from Neurologists could be because the Cavaliers have been MRI Scanned because they are suspected of having SM, but this figure is from Cavaliers from a Cavalier Club,and maybe could be giving a more accurate picture of the Cavalier SM Problem.

I don't know ,but would approx 60 Cavaliers being Randomly MRI Scanned, be quite a big number to be giving a SM Figure.

How many would be needed ,to be taken at Random to give MRI information for SM. Can any-body find out ?

Bet

sins
17th March 2010, 01:08 PM
If you take a look at Claire Rusbridge's veterinary neurology site there's some helpful information there regarding the prevalence of SM.
http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/part2.htm#16

You'll also see that the proposed random sampling of 200 middle aged cavaliers has failed to secure funding.
However,it would purely be an academic exercise to try to quantify the % of affected cavaliers.
The incidence of SM is sufficiently high to merit major concern.
The idea that it's business as usual for cavalier breeders and owners is just untenable.
Thankfully there are many proactive breeders who don't need to wait for the Kennel Club or anyone else to get a grip on the situation.If this means Mri scanning or importing new blood into the genepool,then good for them and even better for the dogs.
It looks like people are tackling different pieces of the puzzle,from arranging scanning days for clubs,Supporting FTR or the cavalier collection scheme and even Rupert's fund,it's all valuable work.
It could still be a rocky road ahead for the breed, so we either support the breeders who make every effort to produce a healthy litter or we'd be better off finding a rescue dog from a pound.
Sins

Karlin
17th March 2010, 03:18 PM
This is actually a very interesting report and I have noted that the original post on the Australian cavaliers comes from a talk given by an Australian neurologist to the Australian CKCS Club -- considering 60 cavaliers scanned by her for breeders, all cavaliers brought in with NO symptoms and would have been presumed to be clear.

Instead, of these 60 show breeder, asymptomatic dogs, 50% had syrinxes -- eg 50% had syringomyelia.

This must have been both a sobering and shocking result for those involved and surely must hammer home to breeders everywhere that this is not a problem to be disregarded or swept under the carpet and some breeders and officials must stop arguing that the problem isn't as bad as researchers make it out to be from what they see in practice. How for example can the Kennel Club continue to argue that these are skewed samples -- much less that the real figure might be only 3% affected? This begins to border on the deliberately deceptive if clubs or KC officials try to claim single figure levels of affectedess in the face of overwhelming international evidence now that at LEAST half of cavaliers seem to end up with SM -- I say at least because remember the vast majority of dogs in these samples are only about 2-4, breeding age. As SM is progressive, the rate for an older cluster of dogs -- say 60 dogs aged 8 -- would undoubtedly be considerably higher again.

This would not be considered a formal random clinical sample, Bet, but it would be a pretty close approximation as the dogs were all seen to be without symptoms and therefore, there was no presumption of SM and they weren't brought in because they were symptomatic (as some proportion of say Geoff Skerritt's large sample of scanned cavaliers would be -- though most of his are also breeder dogs using the low cost scanning programme, not clinical cases from pet or breeder owners).

I hope many more breeders might consider having their older dogs scanned to help the genome research and thus ultimately to help the gBVs from Sarah Blott which breeders can use to pinpoint their best breeding choices for any cavalier.

Penny Knowler and Clare Rusbridge are looking now for further older (6+) asymtpomatic dogs for subsidised scanning for the genome/EBV work. There is funding right away for at least two dogs, thanks to Rupert's Fund, and should be enough very shortly for one or two more. :)

Please, if people know of breeders who might have potential scan candidates, or pet owners with pedigreed older dogs that might be good for this programme, contact Penny at penny.knowler@ntlworld.com. Enquiries are confidential and discussions, scans and results are between the researchers and dog owners.

Bet
17th March 2010, 03:20 PM
Just to say I was shocked to get the Figure of a Random Sample of approx 60 Cavaliers ,with no symptoms of SM ,that 50% had Syrinxes ,which denotes SM.

This is the first time I have seen a Random Sample Figure of SM in Cavaliers quoted.

This sure blows a hole in the Percentage of SM in Cavaliers that was given on Saturday at Crufts.

If this is the case ,then how many SM Carriers of the SM Gene/Genes will there be.

I don't know, but is the only way for the Future of our Cavalier Breed ,is to find the SM Gene/Genes.

Is the Foetal Tissue Research looking for the SM Gene/Genes also?

If not , how does it benefit the Cavalier Breed.

Sorry to be a bit Thick about that Research, I can understand looking for the Faulty SM Gene/Genes ,but what is the FTR doing if not looking for the Faulty SM Genes.

Bet

RodRussell
17th March 2010, 05:44 PM
... This would not be considered a formal random clinical sample, Bet, but it would be a pretty close approximation as the dogs were all seen to be without symptoms and therefore, there was no presumption of SM and they weren't brought in because they were symptomatic (as some proportion of say Geoff Skerritt's large sample of scanned cavaliers would be -- though most of his are also breeder dogs using the low cost scanning programme, not clinical cases from pet or breeder owners). ...

I think Dr. Child's Australian sample is more valuable than a true random sample, because it is likely limited to (potential?) breeding stock. It is like the heart auscultation exams at conformation shows' clinics in the late 1980s and 1990s, which laid the statistical foundation for the MVD breeding protocol in 1998. Most of the dogs taken to those heart clinics were breeding stock and were intended to be producing the next generation of Cavaliers.
--
Rod Russell

Bet
17th March 2010, 07:39 PM
The more you think about this Information from Australia, the more of a worry it must be for the Cavalier World.

This is not about the CM ,but actually about SM.

I expect that if there were Cavaliers MRI Scanned here in Britain, taken at Random , the result would be the same.

Surely this should be known from all the MRI Scans that have been done ,all the Cavaliers who were MRI Scanned at the Cheaper Rates would not be just Cavaliers who were suspected of having SM.

Maybe some-body could have a way of getting this information.

I do think that this should be done ,to let us Lovers of Cavaliers know what the Breed is up against.

Bet

EddyAnne
17th March 2010, 11:51 PM
Maybe the Cavalier Clubs in each country could invite Neurologists to a Club Seminar, and ask them in advance to provide a "break-down" similar like what Dr Georgina Child gave in Australia. With this from each country I think that collectively there would be heaps more than 200 samples particularly as today more breeders around the world are testing. But then I think what Dr Georgina Child presented gave a good picture and as more are tested the picture would become better.

In Australia there certainly are Cavaliers that do have SM with symptoms. After the PDE documentary was Televised across Australia there was a 12 minute follow-up program which showed one of the Cavaliers who is called Sophie, and Dr Georgina Child appeared briefly and talked about Cavaliers and even mentioned a Cavalier Club website, see at this link address.
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/2688984.htm

Edited in to add as I spotted the following.
Maybe this Seminar might present the latest figures in the UK and from around the world, maybe someone might contact the Chair Jeff Sampson as he might like to have the latest figures. Also I heard that there was mention at Cruft's that the Specialists were going to have a meeting in May regarding the BVA/KC Scheme for CM/SM, hmmm!!! The following is from this link address.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/events/clubshw.html#chd

CAVALIER HEALTH DAY

Royal Veterinary College
Hawkshead Lane
North Mymms
Hatfield
Hertfordshire
AL9 7TA

20th November 2010

Programme

Chair: Jeff Samson

09:30 Registration and coffee
10:00 Update on Mitral Valve Disease Research
Dr Brendan Corcoran, Edinburgh University
10:45 Update on Mitral Valve Disease
Simon Swift, European Veterinary Specialist in Cardiology
11:30 Inherited conditions in the CKCS and breeding strategies
Tom Lewis and Sarah Blott (AHT, Geneticists)
12:15; Round table discussion about MVD
13:00 Lunch
14:00 Imaging findings versus Clinic
Natasha Olby, USA
14:45 Neuropathic pain and how to treat
Dr Holger Volk, RVC
15:30 The story of the beginning - a study in CKCS puppies
Dr Imelda McGonnell, RVC
16:15 Round table discussion about SM
17:00 Close

Organised by The Cavalier Club in conjunction with the Royal Veterinary College and sponsored by Boehringer-Ingelheim Ltd.
.

EddyAnne
18th March 2010, 12:44 AM
Penny Knowler and Clare Rusbridge are looking now for further older (6+) asymtpomatic dogs for subsidised scanning for the genome/EBV work.

Karlin I noticed you mentioned "asymtpomatic dogs". Are they still after the following, note what I bolded and that in relation to the ages mentioned, and from this link address.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/syringo/sm_over_5.html

"The researchers are seeking DNA samples from cavaliers who are over 5 years of age, but preferably over 7, who have been MRI’d and do not have SM. They are also seeking samples from any close relatives that have also been MRI’d, for example siblings, half siblings and offspring. These dogs can be any age."
.

RodRussell
18th March 2010, 02:20 AM
CAVALIER HEALTH DAY
...
20th November 2010

Programme

Chair: Jeff Samson ...


Hopefully Jeff will take the time to listen to what the experts have to say, and perhaps he will learn something about SM in CKCSs. Too bad we all have to wait until November for him to do so.

EddyAnne
18th March 2010, 04:01 AM
Hopefully Jeff will take the time to listen to what the experts have to say, and perhaps he will learn something about SM in CKCSs. Too bad we all have to wait until November for him to do so.
Rod I also mentioned - "I heard that there was mention at Cruft's that the Specialists were going to have a meeting in May regarding the BVA/KC Scheme for CM/SM, hmmm!!!"

As it involves the KC who might be the KC Representative at that meeting, maybe Jeff Sampson. I noticed he Chaired other meetings even this one where I notice this mentioned.
"It was agreed that there is a need to standardise MRI scan results before certification. To facilitate this, The Kennel Club will organise a meeting of neurologists and radiologist to agree a protocol."
See at this link address.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/ebv/aht_meeting_270708.html

Note in the attendees - Dr Jeff Sampson, Kennel Club
Report of the Meeting to discuss proposed BVA KC Syringomyelia MRI screening
scheme held on 24th October at British Veterinary Association.
See at this link address and document in PDF format.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/bva_kc/SM_%20MRI_%20Nov_%2008.pdf
.

Bet
18th March 2010, 10:26 AM
As I mentioned yesterday, how shocked I was to read that 50% of the Cavaliers in the SM Australian Cavalier Random Sample had SM ,to-day I am equally shocked to read ,that that's OK ,50% did'nt have SM.

Are some Cavalier Folk still Blinkered about the SM Problem in the Cavalier Breed?

Bet

Kate H
18th March 2010, 11:22 AM
I was told about the May meeting by the AHT clinician who was on the KC Health Zone - apparently they are going to now grade MRI scans as 0 = clear, 1 = syrinx present, and possibly 2 = severe, and allowance will be made for the differences in scans between low resolution and high resolution (not sure of technical word!) scanners. I think it's the MRI specialists who are going to sort it out, with minimal input from the KC - at least that's the impression I got.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

sins
18th March 2010, 11:31 AM
Well Bet,noone said it was ok that 50% of cavaliers had SM.
That would be taking what was said out of context.The point was ,that having made the personal choice to only mate two cavaliers who do not have SM, the 50% of cavaliers who were clear of Syrinxs gave breeders a choice of stock to work with and to move forward.
Sins

Bet
18th March 2010, 11:56 AM
All I can say about my Previous Post, how many Carriers from the Random Australian SM Sample will there be.

I still am of the Opinion ,that this is shocking news for the Cavalier World no matter how it is glossed over.

Bet

RodRussell
18th March 2010, 12:45 PM
Thanks, Eddy. The sooner Jeff finds out how to read current statistical data and also finds out that SM in Cavaliers is not a one or two percent propostion, the better for him and for the breed. The UK club cannot afford to have an ostrich as its geneticist.

Karlin
18th March 2010, 03:02 PM
I think Dr. Child's Australian sample is more valuable than a true random sample, because it is likely limited to (potential?) breeding stock. It is like the heart auscultation exams at conformation shows' clinics in the late 1980s and 1990s, which laid the statistical foundation for the MVD breeding protocol in 1998. Most of the dogs taken to those heart clinics were breeding stock and were intended to be producing the next generation of Cavaliers.
--
Rod Russell

Very good point -- agree.

Also agree that the good news is the 50% clear -- but ages would be important. How many were over 5/6 too?

I hope such figures might give added incentive to many breeders to scan older cavaliers as it really highlights how affected the breed is with this terrible problem an the need to find those clears -- and of course some with the right dogs in the UK can get scanning fully covered right now from Rupert's Fund! Owners of any potential candidates are very welcome to get more info from posts in the Rupert's Fund forum, or contact Clare Rusbridge. Due to generous response, we have raised enough money to do several more dogs now.

Karlin
18th March 2010, 03:13 PM
EddyAnne: yes the request on the UK Club site still holds -- everyone knows there are many, many scans out there that have not been submitted for either the genome work or to Sarah Blott. Many breeders over time in the UK have noted the many clear results they have had on their cavaliers so if these scans exist on any cavalier, especially older dogs, this information badly needs to get to researchers.

Geoff Skerritt and Chestergates do NOT automatically submit scan results to Sarah Blott so breeders need to do this themselves!! Most scans have been done by Chestergates and I m absolutely sure there's a widespread belief amongst club breeders that all are automatically forwarded. None are forwarded.

Kate: yes have heard along these lines regarding the scheme. The programme also is centred entirely on the several neurologists involved -- it will not be lower level radiologists or clinicians making determinations or reading scans, and the scheme while supported by the KC is not under their control.

Looking at the schedule for the health day in November (so far away! For such an important, current topic of concern to so many breeders and pet owners!) -- it surely is strange that no one associated with the scanning and genome research at the very heart of addressing the problem is speaking or presenting or answering questions. How odd -- and wonder who will be the person telling breeders with questions what the on the ground, informed picture is on research and figures? This is the info they have wanted as a priority at each of the seminars and the two SM conferences. I would think by November that breeders would really want an update as the genome project will be very close to conclusion with results that are of such interest and importance to breeders. It would be a perfect setting for an informed, professional update.

Kate H
18th March 2010, 03:51 PM
I'm hoping that one of the reasons that the CKCS/RVC seminar isn't until November is that by then the RVC trial of a new pain control for SM will have finished being assessed and the RVC man talking about Neuropathic Pain will have something (good!) to tell us.

It is planned that there will be a separate seminar to introduce the scanning scheme - probably at Stoneleigh in October. RVC said there wasn't space in the programme to add it to their seminar. Presumably the neurologists will have their say then.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

EddyAnne
18th March 2010, 04:21 PM
I think it's the MRI specialists who are going to sort it out, with minimal input from the KC - at least that's the impression I got.

Kate yes it would be the MRI neurologists and radiologists who are going to sort out anything to do with things like the taking, reading and grading of MRIs. As pointed out earlier it does appear that the KC organises the meetings.

The KC would like to attend the meeting as they would be involved in the setting up and running of the KC Database and its software fields for the Scheme and this to what the Specialists decide. There is also the matter of the database fields being displayed to the public and printed on dogs KC documentation, this might turn out to be somewhat similar to what already occurs with other BVA/KC Schemes such as for Eyes, Hips and Elbows.

There might be costs involved somewhere and if so who is going to pay for it. Also as the KC is organising the meeting maybe they might like to make sure there was some cuppas and biscuits available, and if the meeting was to go on for some time maybe organise some meals.
.

EddyAnne
18th March 2010, 06:19 PM
EddyAnne: yes the request on the UK Club site still holds -- everyone knows there are many, many scans out there that have not been submitted for either the genome work or to Sarah Blott. Many breeders over time in the UK have noted the many clear results they have had on their cavaliers so if these scans exist on any cavalier, especially older dogs, this information badly needs to get to researchers.

Karlin thanks and I think that they may have been asking quite some time for over 5 years of age, but preferably over 7, who have been MRI’d and do not have SM. This I think would be critical to the Genetic Research including the EBV Program. This similarly like with MVD where testing 5 years or older is critical according to the MVD breeding programme. I also have heard of breeders over time mentioning many clear results even on their older dogs and I think that they should make an effort to send the information in along with DNA cheek swabs or "mouth mops".
.

Bet
18th March 2010, 07:27 PM
Just a thought ,what can the Meeting in November do.

The Australian SM Random Sample has surely given warning signs about SM in Cavaliers.

Is not the problem that Mandatory Health Testing has to be introduced for Cavalier Breeders.

I don't think that the SM Meeting will do that.

This has got to come from the Kennel Club ,who say that this will be done through the Accredited Breeders Scheme,but at the moment many of the Cavalier Breeders are conspicious by their absence in supporting it.

It was even claimed on the Good Dog, Bad Dog TV Program on Sunday Night that the Accredited Breeder Scheme leaves a lot to be desired .

So how does the Cavalier Breed go forward in tackling the Two Serious Problems afflicting Cavaliers .

All the Cavalier Breeders must give support to the Genome Research which will also benefit Drs S Blott and T. Lewis in the EBV Research.

For a start what could help, this was also mentioned on Sunday's TV Program ,is the Puppy Contract.

Nothing will Focus Dog Breeders minds ,if a Dog Breeders does not Health Test their Breeding Stock ,sells a Dog who developes a Hereditary Problem known to be in the Breed , that the Breeder can be taken to Court

The Cavalier Breed has the MVD Problem ,where 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 Years of Age .

That is Half the Population of Cavaliers.

The Sad thing about this Statement ,Cavalier Breeders were Warned 27 YEARS AGO about how Wide-Spread this Problem was for Cavaliers .

Now comes the Information about SM in Cavaliers from the Australian SM Random Sample, this I believe was from Cavalier Breeding Stock,, will notice be taken now by Cavalier Breeders ,some of whom are still in Denial that the Cavalier Breed is in Big Trouble,or will it be the Case that in 20 years time there will be no Cavalier Breed left.

Finally it was also said on Sunday, that Dog Breeders have got to realize that Dog Breeding is no Longer a Hobby , it is a Serious Business,that Dog Breeders are dealing with the Health of Living Animals.

This sure does apply to our Lovely Cavalier Breed.

Bet

Margaret C
18th March 2010, 11:31 PM
Thanks, Eddy. The sooner Jeff finds out how to read current statistical data and also finds out that SM in Cavaliers is not a one or two percent propostion, the better for him and for the breed. The UK club cannot afford to have an ostrich as its geneticist.


What I find so discouraging is that the KC genetics advisor is demonstrating the same blinkered view that he was showing over three years ago.

Despite all the mounting evidence that SM is a serious condition in cavaliers he is still quoting an outdated and discredited survey taken in 2004. This is a survey where the few breeders that bothered to answer self-referred the information about their dogs.

This was before the low cost centres were operating and while there was still widespread denial that SM existed among breeders.

How can the man who is actually chairing the meetings that are setting up an official BVA/KC SM scheme, be so lacking in honesty when providing information in a professional capacity on the KC's own Health Zone?

EddyAnne
19th March 2010, 05:54 AM
How can the man who is actually chairing the meetings that are setting up an official BVA/KC SM scheme, be so lacking in honesty when providing information in a professional capacity on the KC's own Health Zone?

To clarify note that in the last meeting I mentioned he was an attendee but there was some other meetings that he was the Chair. Being an attendee he would be listening and for reasons like setting-up the KC Database for the BVA/KC Scheme like I mentioned before.

Note in the attendees - Dr Jeff Sampson, Kennel Club
then note at this particular meeting.
Dr Clare Rusbridge, Stone Lion Veterinary Centre (Chairman)
see at this link address which I gave before.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/bva_kc/SM_%20MRI_%20Nov_%2008.pdf
.

Bet
25th March 2010, 07:20 PM
Just noticed that there are comments about what a Random Sample means.

Well to me it means ,that in Australia it was recently mentioned, that about 60 Cavaliers were MRI Scanned , who had not shown any signs of SM.

50% of those Cavaliers were found to be suffering from SM.

I would think that this will give a truer Picture than Cavaliers being MRI Scanned because they have only been MRI Scanned ,because they have been showing Symptoms of SM.

It seems to me that any Excuse will be being used to try and get away from the Fact about the SM Problem in Cavaliers

Bet

EddyAnne
26th March 2010, 10:28 AM
Here is what was originally posted see at this link address.
http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=21782&postcount=5
.

Cemilie
7th April 2010, 01:16 PM
Hope it's O K passing on this Information.

It's to do with MRI Scan Results of Cavaliers in Australia.

There had been 60 Dogs MRI Scanned ,not cases referred to the Neurologist ,just owners wanting their Dogs Scanned

50 % had a Syrinx ,a Syrinx denotes SM.

I would think just about all Cavaliers in Australia will have originated from Britain in the early days.

These Dogs had not been showing any SM Symptoms.

I would think ,that this is for everybody in the Cavalier World alarming news.

Is it possible that if a number of Cavaliers are MRI Scanned at random, who have shown no signs of SM , 50% of them can have this Insidious
Disease?

Bet

I am new to this forum and I hope I dont ask to foolish questions.

After reading a litle bit here and there in this forum I see that you all talk about syrinx or not syrinx. I wonder how this is compared to the breeding guidelines where the dog is an A if it has a syrinx of 1,9 mm. When you talk about not syrinx - is it then an A or is it syrinx 0 mm?

I also wonder - the results from the 60 australian MRI scanned dogs - are there a link somewhere that I can read more about this project?

English is not my first language and I am afraid to sound cheeky when I ask questions. I can assure you that is not my intension and if I do I hope you excuse me :)

Karlin
7th April 2010, 01:43 PM
Yes the link on the 60 cavaliers is above, and was originally posted by an Australian breeder:

http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=21782&postcount=5

A dogs are dogs that comply with Clare Rusbridge's definition of an A -- dogs with no syrinx or less than 2mm dilation. But there is also a search on for older dogs with NO syrinx for the genome work -- we are raising funds here through our Ruperts Fund to help pay for scans for such dogs (over 6 and no symptoms, to hopefully find more that have no syrinx at all). There is definitely a difference between an A dog and a dog with no syrinxes -- while some A's have no syrinxes, not all do. :)

Cemilie
7th April 2010, 05:34 PM
Yes the link on the 60 cavaliers is above, and was originally posted by an Australian breeder:

http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=21782&postcount=5

A dogs are dogs that comply with Clare Rusbridge's definition of an A -- dogs with no syrinx or less than 2mm dilation. But there is also a search on for older dogs with NO syrinx for the genome work -- we are raising funds here through our Ruperts Fund to help pay for scans for such dogs (over 6 and no symptoms, to hopefully find more that have no syrinx at all). There is definitely a difference between an A dog and a dog with no syrinxes -- while some A's have no syrinxes, not all do. :)

Thank you for answering. Do I then understand it right that from the 60 Australian dogs there wore 50 % without syrinx at all - 0mm fluid? Not 50% A?