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Cardinia
23rd April 2010, 07:27 AM
The Griffon Bruxellois Club are holding a symposium on syringomyelia on
Sunday 2nd May
at the Steventon village Hall,Steventon, Didcot, NR Oxford. O13 6RW
10.00am for a 10.30 start.

SPEAKERS

Dr Clare Rusbridge

and

Dr Jeff Sampson

Tickets are 18 including lunch. For more info contact the secretary

Mrs Maria Oliver: 020 8660 0969 or email: birchend@btinternet.com

RodRussell
23rd April 2010, 10:30 PM
This could be a great opportunity for Dr. Sampson to listen to what the Dr. Rusbridge has to say, and perhaps he will learn something about the extent of CM and SM in CKCSs.

Margaret C
24th April 2010, 12:09 AM
This could be a great opportunity for Dr. Sampson to listen to what the Dr. Rusbridge has to say, and perhaps he will learn something about the extent of CM and SM in CKCSs.

Dr Sampson is employed by the Kennel Club, and like so many in that organisation his views seem to vary depending on who is in the audience.

Anyone that is still quoting the discredited 2004 KC health survey SM figures at Crufts 2010 has to be more Spin than Doctor.

RodRussell
24th April 2010, 03:54 AM
Dr Sampson is employed by the Kennel Club, and like so many in that organisation his views seem to vary depending on who is in the audience.

Anyone that is still quoting the discredited 2004 KC health survey SM figures at Crufts 2010 has to be more Spin than Doctor.

So, is he really a veterinarian, or does he just play one at Crufts? I know of vets who are employed by kennel clubs, but who also have scruples.

Bet
24th April 2010, 09:15 AM
So, is he really a veterinarian, or does he just play one at Crufts? I know of vets who are employed by kennel clubs, but who also have scruples.


Syringomyelia Symposium.


I know this Thread is about the Forth- Coming SM Symposium, will it make any difference to the Number of Cavalier Breeders who are just in denial about the SM Problem in Cavaliers.

Look at what happened in 1983 when the Cavalier Breeders were warned by Dr.P.Darke,the CKCS CLUB Cardiologist, about the Seriousness and how Wide-Spread the MVD Problem was then.

That was 27 years ago.!!!

Is it not just the same to-day ,the Researchers are warning about the Cavaliers' SM Problem?

The same answer seems to be, as has been given in the Past years about MVD, by some Vociferous Cavalier Breeders .

GIVE US THE PROOF.

They will use every excuse they can not to own up to the Fact that the Cavaliers have those Two Serious Health Problems.

Is it because those Cavalier Breeders are now running Scared that their Income will be being curtailed if the true facts are told to the Public about SM and MVD in Cavaliers?

Bet

Cardinia
24th April 2010, 10:34 AM
I think any means of spreading the correct information is important. People will always hear and interpret aspects differently even when attending the same meetings.

What is important is that up to date information is available for people to access if they choose and are able to do so.

I will be attending the symposium, so can feed back information but this again would be my interprataion of the information from the symposium. If there are facts from Clare Rusbridge or Jeff Sampson, I will try and feed back as accurately as possible.

Bet
24th April 2010, 01:04 PM
I think any means of spreading the correct information is important. People will always hear and interpret aspects differently even when attending the same meetings.

What is important is that up to date information is available for people to access if they choose and are able to do so.

I will be attending the symposium, so can feed back information but this again would be my interprataion of the information from the symposium. If there are facts from Clare Rusbridge or Jeff Sampson, I will try and feed back as accurately as possible.



Cardinia,

Just was making the point that 27 years ago UK CKCS Breeders were given the information about MVD in our Cavalier Breed, what has happened since then.

The were given Breeding Guidelines from the CKCS CLUB and the MVD Researchers.

To be Cynical ,not very much, was it the Money for some Cavalier Breeders that they did not want to lose in the past 27 years ,by keeping quiet about the MVD Problem, and now the Cavalier SM Problem could be maybe causing them the same worries.

Is the bottom line for some Cavalier Breeders down to the money that can be made from Breeding Cavaliers ,and I am not talking about Puppy Farmers and BYB's.

Bet

RodRussell
24th April 2010, 02:24 PM
... If there are facts from ... Jeff Sampson, I will try and feed back as accurately as possible.

Apparently, getting facts from Dr. Sampson has been a problem recently.

Cardinia
24th April 2010, 03:17 PM
Apparently, getting facts from Dr. Sampson has been a problem recently.

One can only try and this one will,

Cardinia
24th April 2010, 03:29 PM
Bet,

Until there is legislation in place then some people will not follow any guidelines or protocals. Unfortunetly that is the way it is.

I believe I can help through focusing on supporting those that want to make changes, supporting those that need support and help with theirs dogs health needs and making information available to as many people as possible .

Bet
24th April 2010, 06:11 PM
Bet,

Until there is legislation in place then some people will not follow any guidelines or protocals. Unfortunetly that is the way it is.

I believe I can help through focusing on supporting those that want to make changes, supporting those that need support and help with theirs dogs health needs and making information available to as many people as possible .


Cardinia,

I for sure hope you did'nt think I was having a go at you.

After 20 years plus trying to get results for the MVD Problem in our Beloved Cavalier Breed , you start to think what's the use .

I know that there are a number of Cavalier Breeders doing their Best, but it's when I read some of the Posts on the other Cavalier Forum ,especially against Margaret , who is doing all she can about the Cavaliers' Health Problems, it makes you realize that some Cavalier Breeders just do not live on the same Planet as I do.

Bet

Cardinia
25th April 2010, 11:53 AM
I for sure hope you did'nt think I was having a go at you
Bet

It didnt even cross my mind. I just wanted to explain my approach to life really. It is a battle with some people. In my experience with out legislaion you are not going to facilitate change to practice unless people are already looking or seeking change or even just beginning to think about the way they do things. I think that this is true about many situations in life.

Now it is about informed decision making. I would rather focus my positve energies on empowerment to support those to make changes to the way they do things.

Bet
25th April 2010, 12:13 PM
Bet

It didnt even cross my mind. I just wanted to explain my approach to life really. It is a battle with some people. In my experience with out legislaion you are not going to facilitate change to practice unless people are already looking or seeking change or even just beginning to think about the way they do things. I think that this is true about many situations in life.

Now it is about informed decision making. I would rather focus my positve energies on empowerment to support those to make changes to the way they do things.


Syringomyelia Symposium.


Cardinia,

Glad I did'nt give you any offence, what I am glad about though is what has resulted from the Pedigree Dog Exposed TV Program.

The next thing I do hope for is the Puppy Contract to appear.

I do hope you will be able to give us your thoughts about the Symposium.

What I am wondering about is, I know that the Cavaliers' Heads have changed over the Past 25 years or so, have the Griffons' Heads also changed ,Have I given you Food for Thought.

I would love to know the answer to this.

Bet

Margaret C
25th April 2010, 07:59 PM
I am also going to the Griffon SM Symposium, so I will look forward to meeting Rachael there.

Cardinia
3rd May 2010, 08:25 PM
Hi all,

I attended the symposium held by the Griffon Bruxellois Club on Sunday. Clare Rusbridge gave a talk in the morning and then answered questions, Jeff Sampson in the afternoon.

Clare gave a talk on SM and CM relevent to the griffon. How to update, I am not sure whether any of Clare's information in reference to the CKCS will be new info for you guys on this site. If you are interested in the research updates with the griffon, I can post.


Jeff Sampson indicated that the KC within the last 6 months have become pro active with health concerns in the pedigree dog. He acknowledged Clare Rusbridge research incidents of the % of CKCS with CMSM. He explained and discussed the EBV's for the CKCS which Sarah Blott has been working on at the genetic centre at the animal health trust.

He discussed line/in breeding and the genetic impact of using popular stud dogs.

He explained the KC position on mandatory health testing. Which can only become mandatory with the full consent of all of the breeders in a breed registering their litters with the KC. Which has happened for example with a condition in the red setter.

A review of the 2008 registrations of litters indicated that approx 70% of breeders registered only 1 litter a year. The % of a single breeder registering large numbers of litters was small.

I was unable to stay until the end, so missed some of the question and answers.

Karlin
3rd May 2010, 08:35 PM
Please post! I am sure many would like to know what was said. :)

Cardinia
3rd May 2010, 08:39 PM
I've just remebered Clare discussed her recent attendance at a conference for humans who have the condition.

In her knowledge of humans with the condition she explained that there was also a clear incidence of inheritance in the TARTARS an ethnic group from Russia (or a province or country near there).

She also explained an observation of a sufferor who when his arm was touched with an ice cube, indicated that there was intense hot burning and pain. This can be interpreted that the brain is not recieving or interpreting the correct information in regard to the stimulas. So what might be a gentle human touch can for the dog be extremely painful.

Karlin
3rd May 2010, 08:47 PM
I am told Jeff also said that linebreeding is inbreeding -- and that 80% of genetic material is lost per generation, so use of popular sires is very damaging to any breed. Also he seems to now accept the very high rate of the problem of SM in cavaliers -- in Pedigree Dogs Exposed he was stating only 2% seemed to have the condition (quoting the KC breed survey, which was a self-reporting survey, not very scientific), but an attendee said he was indicating now that perhaps 60% to 80% affected rate in cavaliers were the figures he was now hearing back. That is a very significant shift in perspective on cavaliers! I wonder what caused him to change his perspective?

Griffons are in a much better situation where there are at least many dogs without CM or SM so breeders are moving at a good time to start to address the issue.

Cardinia
3rd May 2010, 09:25 PM
The skull shape changes with CM, a dog can have smaller frontal sinuses. Clare explained the research of the study on skull shape and skull xrays in the griffon.
Though there has been a study of griffon skulls and xrays, even with all her experience she can not by looking at a dog say that the dog has the condition without the evidence of the MRI.

The signs of CMSM can be very subtle and the 2 common signs are pain and withdraw. Scratching is only seen in some cases. Chari like associated pain can cause pain and scratching and rubbing head on ground. Surgery can be helpful for chari associated pain. Clare indicated that CM itself can be painful and a dog with CM but without SM can exhibit signs of discomfort such as face rubbing and crying out when touched in the area of neck and head.
Surgery in humans sees a reverse of the size of the syrinx this is not the case in dogs and is still present after surgery. Evidence suggests that surgery does not prevent SM from getting worse but is an option for controlling pain

Early onset greater disabilty. Prognosis guarded if wide syrinx and first clinical signs before 4 years of age.

Research genome CKCS, DNA for syringomyelia. Griffons Bruxellois, DNA for CM, next stage is fine mapping of 2 SNPS on 2 chromosones. (I think). The reserch has been limited by the number of dogs scanned. Need to scan more griffons so that more CMSM free dogs can be found.

180 griffons have been scanned world wide

48 were UK dogs -
22 with SM
26 do not have SM
only 3 of these dogs were CM free

world wide statistics

180 griffons scanned
94 of 180 have SM
86 of 180 do not have SM
34 of these 180 were CM free.

In a small case reveiw of 14 CKCS, 50% progressive, 50 % non progressive, 50 % of dogs were medically managed, 36% were euthanised, 43% survived at 9 years of age. I think she said that this was similar results to a population of TARTARS who also suffer with the human form of the condition, obviously not the euthanised part!

My understanding of the breeding guidelines for the griffon:

Eliminate SM early onset dogs from any breeding plans. The best posibility for reducing the incidents of SM is to:
breed young clear dogs to older clear dogs and a D scanned dog should be breed to an older scanned clear dog. Young clear scanned dogs can be bread to young clear scanned dogs but remembering that SM is a late onset condition so the condition may appear as a young dog matures.

Evidence indicates that A to A matings are mainly getting A's

The BVA/KC guidelines will be discussed and hopefully finalised this month. The ideal situation will be scanning dogs three times for example from 1 year and then 3 year then again at 6+ years which would give a good indication of the dogs CMSM status. Which will be very useful for knowing the geneology status and the history of any future litters. This may not be practical but a scan at 1 year then at 6+ years will give valuble information to an owners knowledge of their breeding dogs.

1st scan will identify condition or absence
2nd scan will confirm a clear status
3rd scan at 6+ valuble to knowledge of breeding stock

Its really important to increase the number of scanned griffons and identify the CM free griffons.

Cardinia
3rd May 2010, 09:48 PM
I am told Jeff also said that linebreeding is inbreeding -- and that 80% of genetic material is lost per generation, so use of popular sires is very damaging to any breed. Also he seems to now accept the very high rate of the problem of SM in cavaliers -- in Pedigree Dogs Exposed he was stating only 2% seemed to have the condition (quoting the KC breed survey, which was a self-reporting survey, not very scientific), but an attendee said he was indicating now that perhaps 60% to 80% affected rate in cavaliers were the figures he was now hearing back. That is a very significant shift in perspective on cavaliers! I wonder what caused him to change his perspective?

Yes that is correct, Jeff was indicating that he accepted the high rate of SM in cavaliers.


Griffons are in a much better situation where there are at least many dogs without CM or SM so breeders are moving at a good time to start to address the issue

Yes, that is correct. Some of the griffons scanned were related and known to have relatives with and without SM or CM or both. Some came in to the research like my girls because I made the decission to have my dogs scanned.

Margaret C
4th May 2010, 04:54 PM
I do not pretend to be a good note taker, if I have got anything wrong I am more than willing to correct these notes.

I will just say how heartening I found two meetings that I attended last week

The KC at their Q & A evening at Exeter was promoting their proposed Breed Mate scheme as the solution to all ills. The whole feel of the evening was different, they had stopped being defensive and denying there were health problems in pure bred dogs. They had stopped making excuses, at least on that particular evening, and were talking about solutions, and the audience of breeders on the whole were accepting of the idea that breeding practices must change

Bill Lambert told me by 2011 they would have a requirement that ABS breeders must take the results of health testing into account when breeding their dogs.

The Griffon Symposium sent me home with a smile on my face. Clare gave a very interesting and informative talk as usual, despite a poorly voice, and gave the news that the Canadian geneticists are putting all of their resources into identifying the gene at this point (and it is a race to the finish line) which is just so encouraging.

I did not take any notes on Clare' talk. There were others there that I thought were doing that, and of course it was a Griffon Seminar, but I did jot down quite a few notes on Jeff Sampson's talk.

..."Inbreeding is an issue"......" Linebreeding is inbreeding"..... "Dog breeds are De Facto like species ( of animals ) because of closed populations and many would be considered endangered species by WWF"

Effective Population Size for a variety of breeds chosen by Imperial College and using the KC database...........

Akita - 45
Boxer - 45
Bulldog 48
chow chow - 50
Rough collie - 33
Golden Ret - 67
GSD - 76
Labrador - 114
ESS -72

The WWF considers under 100 EPS means a species is endangered.
( I understand Cavaliers EPS is somewhere around 65-70 )

Popular Sires......."Fewer than 20% of dogs become parents in their own right, 80% of genetic variation lost each generation"........ "If not addressed will be calamitous for many breeds"......... "sooner or later breeds will lose fertility through breeding depression"...... "We must manage this risk and that inevitably means changing breeding practices"..............."If we don't do anything there is a guarantee that breeds will disappear"

He said how some overseas populations could be a source of some fresh genetic material as they would have developed in different ways and would be a different subset of population ( I doubt whether that is particularly true of cavaliers when so many UK stud dogs have recently been imported worldwide, but I do wonder if some battery farmed dogs may not be free of SM? )

Jeff described how 100 pairs of mice had been bred brother to sister for generations. 90% became infertile and died out. Less than 10% were still okay.

He then went on to give a very enthusiastic presentation of Breed Mate, or is it Mate Select? ( I have written both two names down and I am not sure if there is a difference or they are one and the same thing?)

This, as I understood it, is a scheme which will consider not only the health of the puppies but also the impact of the proposed mating on the breed population. It is proposed that it will automatically incorporate health information from official KC/BVA schemes, information from DNA tests will be added by the end of the year and health information from Club schemes, and health information fed in by owners or breeders ( with vet verification ) will also eventually be added.
Jeff said he hopes it will be no more than 12 months before breeders can input health information via KC website.
All this health test information will "sit beside" the name of a particular dog or bitch together with the other registered details.

Someone wishing to mate their bitch would be able chose likely stud dogs, submit 3-4 names and receive back a report which will show 'traffic lights' that indicate how suitable each dog will be for various categories.

This information will be on an open register, so puppy buyers will be encouraged, by information on the KC website, to go and check if there are any red traffic lights before they buy a puppy from any mating. They would only need the full name of the parents to access this information on the KC website.

At some point there was a mention of encouraging good breeders to join the ABS, so there would, in effect, be a move back to a two tier system of registration. Jeff said the KC like to start with voluntary schemes and the ABS is the route to start, but I got the impression that ABS breeders would definitely be expected, if not actually required, to use this system.
Of course this is the Kennel Club speaking and what they say & what they do can sometimes be very different.

The first release of Mate Select information, which will be the inbreeding coefficient for puppies only, for any breeder of any breed, will be at the end of this year and at Crufts 2011 they will have terminals for breeders to try out the scheme.
The health info. will be added later.

He then went on to EBVs that are for complex diseases such as HD, where there is a mixture of inherited & environmental causes.. The environmental
components are removed. This has proved to be more successful with Labradors (I think he meant than with CKCS) because of the amount of information they already have stored. They have done EBVs for five breeds with HD.

Only 20% of breeders register more than 5 litters a year

SM in CKCS IS a serious problem - Jeff Sampson had heard 60% even 80% of the breed were affected.

A last quote........." In the past we had been reactive, waiting for breed clubs to approach the KC, we are now being proactive and approaching the breed clubs for health information"

wotton12000
4th May 2010, 05:47 PM
Hi Margaret

I, too, was somewhat encouraged by those two meetings, but as you've already indicated, sometimes what the KC say and do can be different things.

It will be a step forward that breeders of all breeds will be able to check on the impact on genetic diversity of a proposed mating. Hopefully this will lead to less emphasis on particular 'good looking' dogs. The figure of 80% loss of genes within a gene pool is frightening to think about.

I feel less confident about EBVs based on Health because this can only be as good as the data that has been fed in. Look how long it has taken to collect health data on Cavaliers just for SM, and after two years the AHT are still not confident enough to allow the program to be used officially. Think of all the dog breeds and all the genetic diseases that they have.

Also, health screening costs money and so long as the schemes are voluntary, many breeders wont bother. It is then left to the puppy buyers to do the research to enable them to ask the right questions and understand the way EBVs work themselves. I did ask the question and got a positive answer from Jeff Sampson, 'Will puppy buyers be able to enter the sire and dam's names themselves and get the EBV scores?' An unequivocal 'Yes'. Was I dreaming?

Labradors will be the first breed to benefit from Hip Dysplasia EBVs, but I hope Cavaliers will be next.

As for the SM DNA research, they are so close now to finding the gene/genes for SM. Held back by the lack of MRI evidence of older SM free dogs to use as a control.

Something Margaret didn't mention is that Jeff Sampson/KC did not rule out an outcross program for breeds which are in very serious trouble, but thought that the solution for most breeds could be found within their existing gene pool.

Carol

Carol

Bet
4th May 2010, 06:42 PM
SM in CKCS IS a serious problem - Jeff Sampson had heard 60% even 80% of the breed were affected.

A last quote........." In the past we had been reactive, waiting for breed clubs to approach the KC, we are now being proactive and approaching the breed clubs for health information"

SYRINGOMYELIA SYMPOSIUM

Having read Margaret's Post that Dr J.Sampson mentioned that SM in CKCS is a Serious Problem,also mentioned in other Posts, surely no-one can doubt this any longer.

Also Carol's Post, this is what I have got into Grief for saying for many years,I do so agree with Carol, we Cavalier Pet Owners, do not care about what a Cavalier looks like,whether they are going to win in the Show Ring, only want our Cherished Cavalier to have the Chance of a Healthy ,Long Life.

Has the Show Scene been the Ruination of many Dogs Health Wise?

Bet

RodRussell
4th May 2010, 07:01 PM
I had read elsewhere, in a report by Ruth Mayer, that during a question-and-answer session at the symposium, Dr. Rusbridge said that the location of a microchip could interfere with MRI scans of the dog's spinal column. She recommended placing the microchip lower along the thoracic region.

Do any of those who attended the symposium recall that topic and what else, if anything, Dr. Rusbridge had to say about microchips?

RodRussell
4th May 2010, 07:11 PM
... Popular Sires......."Fewer than 20% of dogs become parents in their own right, 80% of genetic variation lost each generation"........ "If not addressed will be calamitous for many breeds"......... "sooner or later breeds will lose fertility through breeding depression"...... "We must manage this risk and that inevitably means changing breeding practices"..............."If we don't do anything there is a guarantee that breeds will disappear"

I certainly can understand that if only 20% of dogs become parents, then 80% of genetic variation may be lost, but I would think that this is true of any and all breeds. What percentage of all puppies end up being bred? I would think that the percentage is even lower than 20%. Breeders cull (not kill, just do not breed) probably all but one puppy in any litter, and probably 100% of puppies in other litters.

Following a breed standard would necessitate not breeding a large percentage of offspring. If this is bad policy for the future of a breed, then the entire concept of purebred breeding needs to be revamped, for all breeds.

Margaret C
4th May 2010, 07:47 PM
I had read elsewhere, in a report by Ruth Mayer, that during a question-and-answer session at the symposium, Dr. Rusbridge said that the location of a microchip could interfere with MRI scans of the dog's spinal column. She recommended placing the microchip lower along the thoracic region.

Do any of those who attended the symposium recall that topic and what else, if anything, Dr. Rusbridge had to say about microchips?

We were shown different pictures from one scan that showed quite clearly how the 'hole' caused by the chip interfered with the ability to see a syrinx.

I thought the problem was that vets sometimes put the microchips too far up the neck. I understood that it should be between the shoulder blades, Carol may have taken better notes?

I believe that it has also been said that Clare said only breed young to young. I think there is a mistake here, because it seemed clear to me that Clare was saying that under the new BVA scheme dogs can be scanned at a year, but any such 'C' dog if mated, should be bred to an older clear 'A' dog.

wotton12000
4th May 2010, 07:47 PM
Rod,

I think I heard from one of the KC officials that the written breed standards themselves were not so much of a problem in the vast majority of breeds. But the interpretation of them was.

I think what we may well see in the future is more phenotypic variety within those breed standards as breeders select for health rather than type (or current fashion).

So much depends on the breed judges in the show ring and to what extent they will be guided by the advice the KC says it is giving them.

Carol

Kate H
4th May 2010, 10:19 PM
So much depends on the breed judges in the show ring and to what extent they will be guided by the advice the KC says it is giving them.

Carol

Don't hold your breath - all the judges at Crufts had a meeting with the KC where they were told to judge for health; in one class I watched, the winner never straightened his back legs on the move, and kept them slightly bent when standing. I was with a friend who is an experienced breeder and we looked at each other and said simultaneously 'Patellas?' And I won't even mention the present furore about German Shepherds! It's going to take a lot of courage for judges to get tough when the whole show scene of judges and breeders is so closely interwoven - but I'm sure there are people who can do it - who have GOT to do it if our dog breeds are going to survive. Even the Bateson Report said that dog shows could be part of the solution, as well as part of the problem.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Margaret C
4th May 2010, 11:02 PM
It's going to take a lot of courage for judges to get tough when the whole show scene of judges and breeders is so closely interwoven - but I'm sure there are people who can do it - who have GOT to do it if our dog breeds are going to survive. Even the Bateson Report said that dog shows could be part of the solution, as well as part of the problem.
Kate, Oliver and Aled

I cannot see how it will work unless the rewards for showing are also linked to health.

Jeff Sampson said that Tibetan Spaniels had been shown to have an increase in their genetic diversity in the 1980s and this was due to imports from abroad.
He did add that breeders said that since then type in the breed had become very varied.

Show breeders will have to compromise on type to get health?
This will not happen unless only health tested dogs are eligible for the highest awards.

RodRussell
5th May 2010, 03:02 AM
Rod,

I think I heard from one of the KC officials that the written breed standards themselves were not so much of a problem in the vast majority of breeds. But the interpretation of them was.

What is the practical difference between how a breed standard is written and how it is interpreted?


I think what we may well see in the future is more phenotypic variety within those breed standards as breeders select for health rather than type (or current fashion).

I don't see any of that happening voluntarily, based upon my observations since the MVD breeding protocol was introduced 12 years ago. What is the new motivation for the same breeders to start selecting mates more for health than they have in the past? The motivation of eliminating early-onset MVD in three generations was not enough to induce a significant number of breeders to actually follow the MVD breeding protocol.


So much depends on the breed judges in the show ring and to what extent they will be guided by the advice the KC says it is giving them.

If so much depends upon breed judges, then all is lost in the USA. The AKC breed judges, for the most part, are contemptuous of the CKCS breed standards that conflict with the conventional wisdom of clipped ("neated up!"), teased, sprayed hair, etc. These people try to qualify to judge as many different breeds as possible, to make them more versatile to all-breed clubs putting on shows. So they tend to lump breed standards together, and the Cavalier is truly a breed apart when it comes to certain breed standards.

EddyAnne
5th May 2010, 06:08 AM
He then went on to give a very enthusiastic presentation of Breed Mate, or is it Mate Select? ( I have written both two names down and I am not sure if there is a difference or they are one and the same thing?)

This, as I understood it, is a scheme which will consider not only the health of the puppies but also the impact of the proposed mating on the breed population. It is proposed that it will automatically incorporate health information from official KC/BVA schemes, information from DNA tests will be added by the end of the year and health information from Club schemes, and health information fed in by owners or breeders ( with vet verification ) will also eventually be added.
Jeff said he hopes it will be no more than 12 months before breeders can input health information via KC website.
All this health test information will "sit beside" the name of a particular dog or bitch together with the other registered details.

Someone wishing to mate their bitch would be able chose likely stud dogs, submit 3-4 names and receive back a report which will show 'traffic lights' that indicate how suitable each dog will be for various categories.

This information will be on an open register, so puppy buyers will be encouraged, by information on the KC website, to go and check if there are any red traffic lights before they buy a puppy from any mating. They would only need the full name of the parents to access this information on the KC website.

Margaret does this 24-Feb-10 KC news article give some meaning as to what he might have been very enthusiastic about? Note that the EBV Program is mentioned and which could be available for other breeds even in the form of a first stage for some breeds by providing inbreeding and genetic diversity information which the EBV Program does include. DNA testing could also be included in a later stage and remember the stored Cheek Swabs for Cavalier which later could be tested and the information included in the program. The BVA/KC schemes can help gather health testing information and I noticed a meeting later this month regarding SM/CM. and also the proposed BVA/KC Heart Scheme could include inherited heart diseases for a number of breeds and I'm not talking about just MVD. Anyway have a read of this and which I think the KC may want to have up and running by next Crufts where they may want to promote it extensively.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=2947
.

Teresa
5th May 2010, 09:28 AM
I hope the site of Barneys chip doesn't interfere if he gets scanned for the project!!

In case of potential scanning I had Cassies put further back, the vet did look at me strangely untill I said the reason for my request.

I also agree health should be taken into account at shows, ( As someone else mentioned the German Shepherds in the show ring look awful to me very painful to look at!!. My sister has one with lovely high hips and to me he looks as they should be!!

When looking for a new puppy I couldn't stress enough to breeders I spoke to that I what was most important to me was a healthy puppy as possible from health tested parents. I've been very lucky with Barney and hope for the same with Cassie.

And yes I paid a little more than I thought I would but if this supports things like MRI scans as a bit of peace of mind it's ok by me!!

Pleased to say that Cassies breeder had two scanned clear last week too!! :):)

Bet
5th May 2010, 09:50 AM
[QUOTE=RodRussell;360202]What is the practical difference between how a breed standard is written and how it is interpreted?

SYRINGOMYELIA SYMPOSIUM

What is the new motivation for the same breeders to start selecting mates more for health than they have in the past/

Could I answer Rod with a Snide Comment.

MONEY!!!!!

There are now so many Prospective Cavalier Owners who have been made aware as a Result of the Pedigree Dogs Exposed TV Program about the Health Problems in our Cavalier Breed and are now asking searching questions from Cavalier Breeders before they buy a Cavalier .

Thank-fully not all Cavalier Breeders in the Past have not been Health Conscious about their Cavalier Breeding Stock, but a good number have, and we are where we are ,particularly with the MVD Problem in Cavaliers, 50% will have a Heart Murmur at 5 Years of age.

The only Snag I can think about with this New Mate Select Program, is ,what if the Dog Selected for the Breeder ,the Breeder thinks that Dog will have no Chance of Winning in the The Show Ring,What Then.

Bet

sins
5th May 2010, 10:01 AM
I hope the site of Barneys chip doesn't interfere if he gets scanned for the project!!

Hollys was inserted in the side of her neck,can't recall if it was high or low....hopefully,they'll be able to work round it for Barney if it's obscuring the spinal cord.
Good to know Cassie's breeder is scanning and achieving good results.
Sins

Bet
5th May 2010, 10:02 AM
I hope the site of Barneys chip doesn't interfere if he gets scanned for the project!!

In case of potential scanning I had Cassies put further back, the vet did look at me strangely untill I said the reason for my request.

I also agree health should be taken into account at shows, ( As someone else mentioned the German Shepherds in the show ring look awful to me very painful to look at!!. My sister has one with lovely high hips and to me he looks as they should be!!

When looking for a new puppy I couldn't stress enough to breeders I spoke to that I what was most important to me was a healthy puppy as possible from health tested parents. I've been very lucky with Barney and hope for the same with Cassie.

And yes I paid a little more than I thought I would but if this supports things like MRI scans as a bit of peace of mind it's ok by me!!

Pleased to say that Cassies breeder had two scanned clear last week too!! :):)

Teresa

Could I just mention that there is a Proposal for this very same Subject to be put at the Forth-Coming UK CKCS CLUB'S AGM, .

That any Cavalier ,before He or She is made a Champion ,they must be Health Tested first.

I had made a comment on the List ,saying what a good idea this was, unfortunately I received a Private E-Mail telling me to Zip It , that this was not possible, this has to come from the Kennel Club.

I still wonder why the CKCS CLUB Members at the AGM cannot pass this Proposal ,send it to the KC saying that this is CKCS CLUB'S Wishes.

Bet

Nicki
5th May 2010, 11:11 AM
Re Microchip insertion - I attended a course to learn to do this just over a year ago.

We were told to insert the chip between the shoulder blades - so this is further back and should not interfere with MRI scans. It certainly has not been a problem with the dogs we have chipped and have subsequently had MRI scanned.


Maybe eariler courses taught that the chips be inserted further forward?


It is very hard to chip young puppies - they recommmend only chipping from 10-12 weeks of age in toy breeds, 8-10 weeks in larger breeds. Having chipped 15 week old puppies, I know that even that is quite difficult!

Teresa
5th May 2010, 01:09 PM
Cassie was 12 weeks and diddy....didn't want to take her out without a chip though...I wouldn't have had it done any earlier though!!.

EddyAnne
5th May 2010, 06:38 PM
Re Microchip insertion - I attended a course to learn to do this just over a year ago.

We were told to insert the chip between the shoulder blades - so this is further back and should not interfere with MRI scans. It certainly has not been a problem with the dogs we have chipped and have subsequently had MRI scanned.

Maybe eariler courses taught that the chips be inserted further forward?

In Australia where I am we have Government Legislation Regulations regarding the microchipping of dogs, cats and horses. As a requirement to insert microchips one must become an Authorised Implanter and that means successfully completed training, and yes there is the VBN287 Microchip Implanter Course. Microchips are implanted between the shoulder blades. There is also Government Legislation that dogs MUST be microchipped before being sold or given away, yes each year even heaps of toy breed puppies have been microchipped at 8 weeks of age. In Australia I have heard of some microchips being inserted elsewhere but they were done before there was any Government Regulation and Implantation Courses.
.

Nicki
5th May 2010, 07:46 PM
Yes I attended an official course run by vets, and you are not allowed to be authorised until they are happy with your technique - we actually had to take two of our own dogs and chip them, after practising on a cuddly toy.

They also offer free follow up courses for life.


There is also Government Legislation that dogs MUST be microchipped before being sold or given away

This is so sensible I do wish they would pass that here...

Kate H
5th May 2010, 10:46 PM
Rachael/Cardinia quotes Clare Rusbridge saying: 'The skull shape changes with CM, a dog can have smaller frontal sinuses.'

This raises an interesting question. People assume that the change in skull shape in Cavaliers - especially deeper stops - is the cause of CM. But could it actually be the result of CM altering the shape of the top and front of the skull? Could CM have been present in Cavaliers (as a genetic mutation of some kind?) long before scanning was possible, and over the years led to the deeper stops which have become so common?

Guesswork - but I like starting interesting hares!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Love my Cavaliers
5th May 2010, 10:49 PM
Just another word on microchips and MRI scanning - my dog's neurologist said that rarely, but sometimes, the MRI can affect the chip's signal. Three of my dogs have had MRIs and I had their chips checked afterwards at their regular vet. All of them were o.k. But I felt that it couldn't hurt to check. Has anyone else heard of that (MRIs interfering with the chip rather than the chip interfering with the scan)?

Teresa
5th May 2010, 11:15 PM
I think all dogs should be chipped too!!! Will check Barneys after his scan to be sure it sill works :) Thanks..

EddyAnne
5th May 2010, 11:33 PM
Yes I attended an official course run by vets, and you are not allowed to be authorised until they are happy with your technique - we actually had to take two of our own dogs and chip them, after practising on a cuddly toy.

Nicki where I am even Veterinarians have to do an approved Course in Microchip Implantation as mentioned in our Government DPI Regulations.

An Authorised Implanter is:
For the purposes of implanting a cat or dog:

1. Registered Veterinarians (Victorian registration) who have undertaken the DPI approved "Australian Veterinary Association Victorian Microchip Implementation Course".

2. Persons with Certificate IV / Advanced Certificate in Veterinary Nursing, Certificate III in Animal Technology, Certificate IV in Animal Control and Regulation / Animal Welfare (Regulation) or another approved qualification
. . o who have successfully completed the VBN287 Course in Microchip Implantation Procedures Competency for Cats and Dogs, and
. . o who are employed by, or have a written agreement for supervision with, a veterinarian.

Just to let everyone know what happens where I am.

Mandatory microchipping laws started years ago in one state of Australia, then over the years has gradually spread to other states around Australia. Prior to mandatory microchipping there was a voluntary stage.

Where I am by the Law the breeder must microchip every pup before selling or giving away the pups, a form is filled with all the details by the breeder plus also by the autharised implanter and then that form is sent to Central Animal Records.

When someone purchases a pup, another form is filled in by the breeder, that form is then handed to the puppy purchaser where the purchaser must fill in the rest of that form then send it to Central Animal Records this to transfer ownership. If the puppy purchaser does not fill in the form and send it in, Central Animal Records will still have the breeder listed as the owner. In the case of a lost form the puppy purchaser would have to contact the breeder and request them to send another form.

In Australia Local Governments implemented "by-laws" that require owners to supply microchip details for all new registrations/licenses and all dogs must have Local Government registrations/licenses. If someone tries to obtain a registration/license and has not got the microchip number then officials will ask where did they obtain the dog from and where they may investigate.

Authorised Inspectors have door knocked throughout my area checking registrations/licenses and for various permits where required, and yes they also have microchip scanners. At puppy farms every dog has a registration/license and also is microchipped and the inspectors can check each dog one by one. Some puppy farmers and backyard breeders do hide but the more pups they sell then the more likely they will get caught, and even a lady enquiring to buy a pup just might be an Inspector.
.

Bet
6th May 2010, 02:09 PM
Rachael/Cardinia quotes Clare Rusbridge saying: 'The skull shape changes with CM, a dog can have smaller frontal sinuses.'

This raises an interesting question. People assume that the change in skull shape in Cavaliers - especially deeper stops - is the cause of CM. But could it actually be the result of CM altering the shape of the top and front of the skull? Could CM have been present in Cavaliers (as a genetic mutation of some kind?) long before scanning was possible, and over the years led to the deeper stops which have become so common?

Guesswork - but I like starting interesting hares!

Kate, Oliver and Aled


Syringomyelia Symposium

Kate,

Could I give you my thoughts about your Post.

I have wondered whether the Alteration of the Dome Shape Skull of the King Charles Spaniel to get the Flat Shaped Skull required for the Cavalier Breed in the 1930's ,could some-how be being involved with the CM Cavalier Problem.

Maybe this is why so many Cavaliers now-a-days have CM.Those CM Genes will maybe be spread every-where.

Bet

Tania
7th May 2010, 01:29 PM
Just another word on microchips and MRI scanning - my dog's neurologist said that rarely, but sometimes, the MRI can affect the chip's signal. Three of my dogs have had MRIs and I had their chips checked afterwards at their regular vet. All of them were o.k. But I felt that it couldn't hurt to check. Has anyone else heard of that (MRIs interfering with the chip rather than the chip interfering with the scan)?

I was at the meeting. I have recorded most of the presentation by Clare Rusbridge.
This was raised in questions and answers:
"the Microchip will warp the image considerably. The Microchip has stopped her operating on a dog because they couldn't decide whether it was a chip or a disc.
Apparently the microchip can expand the central canal slightly and you have to be careful the microchip is not causing the problem rathan than the disease.

A less experienced technician might not be able to deal the microchip if it is in the wrong place. Clare said she had a skinny dog (yorkshire Terrier) and had to take the skin that was holding the microchip and had to tack it back onto the dogs back whilst doing the scan.
Clare said when you have a microchip inserted make sure it is as far back as possible ideally over the Thoracic Vertebrae.

I have two recordings, the second one was the question and answers, I am sure people will find this particularly interesting. I would post it here but I am not sure if I am allowed to. If anyone would like a copy of it, I am happy to e mail.

There was also a discussion about skull shapes and sizes etc. Over the weekend I will transcribe this for anyone who is interested.

kind regards

Bet
7th May 2010, 04:31 PM
I was at the meeting. I have recorded most of the presentation by Clare Rusbridge.
This was raised in questions and answers:
"the Microchip will warp the image considerably. The Microchip has stopped her operating on a dog because they couldn't decide whether it was a chip or a disc.
Apparently the microchip can expand the central canal slightly and you have to be careful the microchip is not causing the problem rathan than the disease.

A less experienced technician might not be able to deal the microchip if it is in the wrong place. Clare said she had a skinny dog (yorkshire Terrier) and had to take the skin that was holding the microchip and had to tack it back onto the dogs back whilst doing the scan.
Clare said when you have a microchip inserted make sure it is as far back as possible ideally over the Thoracic Vertebrae.

I have two recordings, the second one was the question and answers, I am sure people will find this particularly interesting. I would post it here but I am not sure if I am allowed to. If anyone would like a copy of it, I am happy to e mail.

There was also a discussion about skull shapes and sizes etc. Over the weekend I will transcribe this for anyone who is interested.

kind regards

Syringomyelia Symposium

Tania ,I would be so interested to get you can send

Bet

Tania
7th May 2010, 09:12 PM
Yes of course, I will send it now.

Nicki
8th May 2010, 10:23 AM
Tania please could you send me a copy too? Thank you very much for doing this :flwr:

Are you happy for it to be forwarded to other people too?


You would need permission from Dr Clare Rusbridge before posting a transcript - I don't think she would object but perhaps you could e-mail her?

Bet
9th May 2010, 01:42 PM
Syringomyelia Symposium

Kate,

Could I give you my thoughts about your Post.

I have wondered whether the Alteration of the Dome Shape Skull of the King Charles Spaniel to get the Flat Shaped Skull required for the Cavalier Breed in the 1930's ,could some-how be being involved with the CM Cavalier Problem.

Maybe this is why so many Cavaliers now-a-days have CM.Those CM Genes will maybe be spread every-where.

Bet

SYRINGOMYELIA SYMPOSIUM

Could I add a further thought to my Post.

Is it possible that because of this Alteration that was carried out in the 1930's , CM was taking place, and this caused less Space in the Skulls of Cavaliers .

Were any other Toy Breeds involved in having their Skulls Altered from other Breeds ,if not, is this why Cavaliers seem to be showing more signs of CM.

Then because the Cavaliers Heads have become Smaller than they were 30 years ago ,this could all be being linked to their SM Problem.

In Eilidh M.Stenning's Book ,Published in 1964,in Page 14, there right and wrong Descriptions of Cavalier Heads.

In the Wrong Description ,is a Photo ,which shows a Cavalier Head ,which has a Deep Stop,and Short Muzzle.

This looks like so many of To-Days Cavaliers.

Bet