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Bet
19th May 2010, 12:15 PM
This was a Poem written by Robert Burns ,the Great Scots Poet, after reading Professor Sir P Batesons's Report that for around 40 years many of the Health Problems in Dogs has been known about, this surely applies to our Cavalier Breed's MVD Problem, when the Cavalier Breeders were warned 27 years ago by Dr P.Darke about how serious and wide-spread the MVD Problem was in Cavaliers, that at the CKCS AGM Last year it was stated that 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age,this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

Where have those Cavalier Breeders been in those 27 years who are professing they have been doing so much for the MVD Problem in the Breed?

The UNCO GUID sure springs to Mind.

Bet

Bet
19th May 2010, 07:41 PM
This was a Poem written by Robert Burns ,the Great Scots Poet, after reading Professor Sir P Batesons's Report that for around 40 years many of the Health Problems in Dogs has been known about, this surely applies to our Cavalier Breed's MVD Problem, when the Cavalier Breeders were warned 27 years ago by Dr P.Darke about how serious and wide-spread the MVD Problem was in Cavaliers, that at the CKCS AGM Last year it was stated that 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age,this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

Where have those Cavalier Breeders been in those 27 years who are professing they have been doing so much for the MVD Problem in the Breed?

The UNCO GUID sure springs to Mind.

Bet



The UNCO GUID

PS.

For those who don't understand this Scot's Phrase, should have explained ,that it means,Artifical Saintliness.

The Bottom Line still is the Question, where were many of those Cavalier Breeders who could have done so much to have helped the Cavaliers suffering from the MVD Problem in the Past 27 years.

Bet

ByFloSin
19th May 2010, 10:34 PM
This was a Poem written by Robert Burns ,the Great Scots Poet, after reading Professor Sir P Batesons's Report that for around 40 years many of the Health Problems in Dogs has been known about, this surely applies to our Cavalier Breed's MVD Problem, when the Cavalier Breeders were warned 27 years ago by Dr P.Darke about how serious and wide-spread the MVD Problem was in Cavaliers, that at the CKCS AGM Last year it was stated that 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age,this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

The UNCO GUID sure springs to Mind.

Bet

I think you've gone a little astray here Bet. According to the Oxford Library of English Poetry Robert Burns lived between 1759 ~& 1796. Are you perhaps suggesting that this was a posthumous perusal of Prof. Bateson's Report - on a broa brecht moonlit night perhaps???????????

Bet
20th May 2010, 09:59 AM
I think you've gone a little astray here Bet. According to the Oxford Library of English Poetry Robert Burns lived between 1759 ~& 1796. Are you perhaps suggesting that this was a posthumous perusal of Prof. Bateson's Report - on a broa brecht moonlit night perhaps???????????

No Flo , I was just making a comparison about what Professor Sir P. Bateson had said in his Recent Report about the Health Problems being known in the Dog World for 40 years and the Cavalier MVD Problem for 27 Years, and mentioning some of the UNCO GUID in the Cavalier World who had let this happen to our Cavaliers because of their Artifical Saintliness.

Bet

sins
20th May 2010, 11:13 AM
Hi Bet,
While I respect your feelings on the matter,I think your comments are unhelpful and insensitive at this particular time.
It's difficult enough to make sense of the potential repercussions of the BVA/KC scheme for SM and the suitability of existing scans that breeders have invested time and money in obtaining, in order to do their best for the breed....and in order to do their best for the people who buy their pups!!
I think that's enough of a kick in the stomach for one week.
A lot of good people are feeling demoralised and cut adrift right now,even to the point that their faith in health testing has been severely tested.
Cavalier breeders are denied the pleasure of pursuing their hobby in the manner that other breeders take for granted.
Recently at Fermoy International Show I met a young couple who were doing their first show.They had two cavaliers and had done a few ringcraft lessons and to their surprise and delight they went Best Pup in breed on their very first day out with her.
Sadly I felt very badly for them when another exhibitor(not cavalier) pointed out the awful mess that the breed is in with Syringomyelia and burst their bubble.Hopefully they'll appear again but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.
I got an offer of a new pup this week.Normally I'd be bouncing with excitement but it all just feels flat.
So I think Bet,it's time to stop flogging those who are genuinely trying,those who really couldn't care less about cavalier health are not the ones who will be reading CT or CC.
There are some green shoots of hope for the breed.Let's not smother them before they emerge.
Sins

Bet
20th May 2010, 12:04 PM
Hi Bet,
While I respect your feelings on the matter,I think your comments are unhelpful and insensitive at this particular time.
It's difficult enough to make sense of the potential repercussions of the BVA/KC scheme for SM and the suitability of existing scans that breeders have invested time and money in obtaining, in order to do their best for the breed....and in order to do their best for the people who buy their pups!!
I think that's enough of a kick in the stomach for one week.
A lot of good people are feeling demoralised and cut adrift right now,even to the point that their faith in health testing has been severely tested.
Cavalier breeders are denied the pleasure of pursuing their hobby in the manner that other breeders take for granted.
Recently at Fermoy International Show I met a young couple who were doing their first show.They had two cavaliers and had done a few ringcraft lessons and to their surprise and delight they went Best Pup in breed on their very first day out with her.
Sadly I felt very badly for them when another exhibitor(not cavalier) pointed out the awful mess that the breed is in with Syringomyelia and burst their bubble.Hopefully they'll appear again but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.
I got an offer of a new pup this week.Normally I'd be bouncing with excitement but it all just feels flat.
So I think Bet,it's time to stop flogging those who are genuinely trying,those who really couldn't care less about cavalier health are not the ones who will be reading CT or CC.
There are some green shoots of hope for the breed.Let's not smother them before they emerge.
Sins

The UNCO GUID

Sins,

My Comments are in no way referring to the SM Problem, I just don't know what you are meaning about what has happened this week.

I am making my comments about the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed which has for so many years been sadly neglected by a good number of Cavalier Breeders.

Bet

ByFloSin
20th May 2010, 12:23 PM
Well said Sins, for what it is worth, I agree with everything you have said, especially as two of mine were scanned at Chester Gates!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bet, I and many others were testing for MVD over 25 years ago. It is difficult to breed something out when you haven't yet been able to identify and eliminate the inheritance factors that cause it. I don't want to upset you, as I know you mean well and are a very nice person at heart, but please try to understand that there is a difference between owning and losing a dog(s) to MVD and breeding with health in mind.

My heart is breaking at the moment because of what has come to light this week and I am sure many others feel the same. Let's be constructive here and work together to try to make things better for the dogs.

sins
20th May 2010, 12:27 PM
Could I say that having collected pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble ,and sent onto the Researchers, Margaret Carter broke the Golden Rule KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT !!!! Never ever divulge what you know . Margaret Carter on TV ,spouted to Millions ,now we know the consequences of her irresponsible action. Maybe she should have learned the Saying Lord ,keep Your Arm Around my Shoulder BUT YOUR HAND OVER MY MOUTH ! Bet Hargreaves

So Bet,
When you knew all about the MVD problem,is this what you did about it?Did you observe the golden rule?
It's pointless now complaining what people allegedly did and didn't do for MVD.
The past is gone...
what matters is the future.
Sins

Bet
20th May 2010, 07:06 PM
So Bet,
When you knew all about the MVD problem,is this what you did about it?Did you observe the golden rule?
It's pointless now complaining what people allegedly did and didn't do for MVD.
The past is gone...
what matters is the future.
Sins

Sins.

For around 20 years I collected Pedigrees of Cavaliers who were suffering from Heart Trouble, sent them to the Researchers looking into this Condition in our Cavalier Breed.

I would have about 400 .

I don't know what you mean by the Golden Rule, you've lost me, I have only been a Cavalier Pet Owner who has had
many Tears because of the early Deaths of of some of our Cavaliers, my complaint is ,and I will keep repeating it, ...

Why ,when 27 years ago ,Cavalier Breeders were warned that the Cavalier Breed had a Serious and Wide-Spread Heart Problem, and even last year ,it was said that 50% 0f Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of Age, that this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

Who else can you Blame but the Cavalier Breeders who have allowed this to happen?

For sure we are where we are in connection with the MVD Problem , where the Heart Researchers are now saying ,that because of what was allowed to happen in the Past ,it could be Possible most Cavaliers could now be Carriers of the MVD GENE/GENES/.

I don't want to get into an Argument about the SM and MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed,they are both I would say ,the Two most Serious Diseases to Afflict any Breed of Dog,one is as Bad as the other .,when you said about the Cavalier Breed being in such a Mess because of SM, just remember it is in as Big a Mess because of their MVD Problem.

This should never be being forgotten about.

Bet

Soushiruiuma
20th May 2010, 07:48 PM
I have two issues with the your arguments Bet.
1) you expect immediate results on MVD in breeding. How do you propose doing this? Assuming that a generation is 3 years in dogs (this would be a low estimate 5 years is probably more accurate) there would be 6-7 generations of dogs since MVD was first announced as a major problem. For traits with simple inheritance 6-7 generations would be enough that the desired type would start to be "fixed" in the population. MVD we know has several genes impacting the trait, and these genes have not been identified so no test is available to determine if a dog is a carrier. Using phenotype alone (does a dog have MVD) it would surprising to see any significant gains in a matter like MVD. Take a moment to consider the animals defining genetic research: yeast, fruit flies, c.elegans, zebrafish, mice. The generation gap on these is hours to weeks at the longest. The reason cats, dogs, monkeys, and even rats are less common in this field is that it takes too long to establish a population with the traits you want. Breeding to affect a change will take time, even in the best of situations. The fact that puppy mills breed with no regard to health will only make it more difficult to detect when any positive change has occured.

2) I understand that Margaret Carter chose to publicly disclose knowledge about the health of specific dogs. And while you are entitled to support her decision to do so, I found it a despicable action. The owner of a dog should have the right to confidentiality of their dog's health. Those results should be shared with owner's of other dogs who intend to breed to the dog, and prospective puppy buyers. But the onus is on others to request this information. The fact that this dog had health scanning done, and had shared those results with the club health committee indicates that the owner was thinking about health. To expect that bringing public fury onto this owner would encourage others to health test their stock, and cooperate with the club's health committee is insanity.

sins
20th May 2010, 08:19 PM
The fact that this dog had health scanning done, and had shared those results with the club health committee indicates that the owner was thinking about health.

Thinking about health and actually doing something about it are two entirely different things.
I think at this point we all need to move away from the culture of blame.
A very solid framework to support and facilitate breeders is being constructed and almost any health testing day arranged by UK clubs (MVD,SM etc..) is well attended.
Progress may sometimes be slow,but things have moved forward so much over the last two years,I feel it's counter productive to look back and continue to fight long lost battles.
There will be a BVA/KC scheme for MVD and SM.
Testing days will continue at different scanning centres.
Cardiologists will be well attended at Club organised days.
Rupert's fund and club supported initiatives will contribute information to the genome project which is nearing completion.
Margaret Carter's cavalier collection scheme will be completed.
The cavalier CKS foetal tissue project is being supported.
These are the pertinent issues which need to be highlighted,not what people did or didn't do two or even twenty years ago.
Is it not preferable to focus on what is achievable for the future of the breed?
Sins

Bet
21st May 2010, 11:46 AM
Thinking about health and actually doing something about it are two entirely different things.
I think at this point we all need to move away from the culture of blame.
A very solid framework to support and facilitate breeders is being constructed and almost any health testing day arranged by UK clubs (MVD,SM etc..) is well attended.
Progress may sometimes be slow,but things have moved forward so much over the last two years,I feel it's counter productive to look back and continue to fight long lost battles.
There will be a BVA/KC scheme for MVD and SM.
Testing days will continue at different scanning centres.
Cardiologists will be well attended at Club organised days.
Rupert's fund and club supported initiatives will contribute information to the genome project which is nearing completion.
Margaret Carter's cavalier collection scheme will be completed.
The cavalier CKS foetal tissue project is being supported.
These are the pertinent issues which need to be highlighted,not what people did or didn't do two or even twenty years ago.
Is it not preferable to focus on what is achievable for the future of the breed?
Sins

UNCO GUID

To Sins and Soushiruiuma.

There is nothing Surer ,you will never Accept my Views nor I yours on this subject,so I will just conclude by Saying.

Just Think On, that if many Cavalier Breeders had Paid Heed to the Warnings that they were being given over 20 years ago about the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed,and perhaps Dr B .Cattanach , the Geneticist and Mr B. Field the CKCS Health Representative,had not walked away in disgust from the Abuse,that they were receiving from some Cavalier Breeders when they were trying to help the CKCS CLUB in tackling the MVD Problem, a Good Number of Cavaliers could have had the chance of Healthier,Longer Lives,and so many of us Cavalier Pet Owners might not have wept so many Tears about what had Happened to our Cherished Cavaliers ,seeing them suffering and dying so young.

As I said I am not mentioning the Cavalier SM Problem,but it is no use saying we are where we are in connection with the Breeds' MVD Problem, yes ,we sure are where we are with it, where now it's being said by the Researchers that there could be so many Cavaliers around now Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes.

That the only chance of trying to help the Cavaliers with their MVD Problem ,is follow the UK CKCS Recommended Breeding Guide-Lines for MVD,not to Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age,yet what do we find, that in the Recent Kennel Club Breed Supplement, a Cavalier used at Stud at 10 months ,and a Cavalier Bitch ,at 16 months.

I REST MY CASE !!!!!

Bet

Bet
21st May 2010, 07:05 PM
UNCO GUID

To Sins and Soushiruiuma.

There is nothing Surer ,you will never Accept my Views nor I yours on this subject,so I will just conclude by Saying.

Just Think On, that if many Cavalier Breeders had Paid Heed to the Warnings that they were being given over 20 years ago about the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed,and perhaps Dr B .Cattanach , the Geneticist and Mr B. Field the CKCS Health Representative,had not walked away in disgust from the Abuse,that they were receiving from some Cavalier Breeders when they were trying to help the CKCS CLUB in tackling the MVD Problem, a Good Number of Cavaliers could have had the chance of Healthier,Longer Lives,and so many of us Cavalier Pet Owners might not have wept so many Tears about what had Happened to our Cherished Cavaliers ,seeing them suffering and dying so young.

As I said I am not mentioning the Cavalier SM Problem,but it is no use saying we are where we are in connection with the Breeds' MVD Problem, yes ,we sure are where we are with it, where now it's being said by the Researchers that there could be so many Cavaliers around now Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes.

That the only chance of trying to help the Cavaliers with their MVD Problem ,is follow the UK CKCS Recommended Breeding Guide-Lines for MVD,not to Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age,yet what do we find, that in the Recent Kennel Club Breed Supplement, a Cavalier used at Stud at 10 months ,and a Cavalier Bitch ,at 16 months.

I REST MY CASE !!!!!

Bet

Sins,

Just had to come back about this, I mentioned in my Last Post about the Advice from MVD Researchers by following the UK CKCS Recommended MVD Breeding Guide-Lines, that this could have an effect in helping with the Cavaliers ' MVD Problem,...

Take a look at the Kennel Club's New Edition of their Cavalier Breed Supplement,neither wonder I despair about the MVD Problem, .ever being taken seriously by some Cavalier Breeders.

Bet

sins
22nd May 2010, 12:36 AM
My copy arrived this Morning Bet,I'll take a look at it over the weekend.
Sins